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(Huffington Post)   Okay America, who wants the most extreme anti-abortion bill in the country? I see Michigan has its hand raised   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 366
    More: Asinine, Michigan, Scott Pelley  
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4997 clicks; posted to Politics » on 08 Jun 2012 at 6:35 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-07 09:28:58 PM  
"most extreme" was a label given to it by its opponents. it is not an objective measure of how extreme it is. its extremity lies mostly in the details of what clinics would be required to have, both in terms of staff and equipment, in order to provide abortions legally. because it would require a lot of things not currently required, many (most?) clinics would at least temporarily be out of commission, at least specifically for [legal] abortions. in that way, yes it's pretty extreme.

this could lead to a watershed moment between the state legislature (very conservative) and the governor (presumed to be more moderate). i'll be interested to see what Gov. Snyder does.
 
2012-06-07 11:53:00 PM  
FTA: the omnibus bill would criminalize all abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy, without exceptions for rape victims, the health of the woman or in cases where there is a severe fetal anomaly.

WTF?!?

"Pro-life," my ass. It's anti-life for women.

I am so sick of assholes who try to legislate forced childbirth. These are the same assholes who also want to deny people access to affordable health care.
 
2012-06-08 12:00:49 AM  
Specifically, the omnibus bill would criminalize all abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy, without exceptions for rape victims, the health of the woman or in cases where there is a severe fetal anomaly.

I can only assume that because they love life so much, even in the most extreme cases of deformity, that the Republicans will include a plan to pay for keeping brainless vegetables alive and fed and breathing for decades.

Right?
 
2012-06-08 12:00:54 AM  
First Wisconsin, now Michigan? what's next- prayer in schools in Minnesota? I mean, does the Midwest really want the Bible Belt label?
 
2012-06-08 12:20:12 AM  
As I respond to the bill, please note that while I am against abortion in almost all circumstances, I do recognize that there are times it is forgivable.


Specifically, the omnibus bill would criminalize all abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy,

It is reasonable to extend the protected time period for unborn children as medicine advances.

without exceptions for rape victims,

Not sure about this provision

the health of the woman

A better method would be to have a stricter definition of "health". Differentiate physical and psychological well-being and have rebuttable presumptions in favor of the woman/doctor.

or in cases where there is a severe fetal anomaly.

Again, not sure. Are there fetal anomalies that can't be detected until after 20 weeks?

It would require health centers that provide abortions to have surgery rooms, even when they don't provide surgical abortions. It would require doctors to be present for medication abortions and to screen women for "coercion" before providing an abortion,

I would call these reasonable. Many things can go wrong with an abortion (something like 10% have complications). Having a doctor on staff to perform medical procedures and take charge of a situation certainly seems like a smart thing to do.

and it would create new regulations for the disposal of fetal remains.

The only thing the bill says is that the parents of the aborted fetus have final say as to the disposition of the remains. Perfectly fine by me.

The bill would also ban "telemedicine" abortions, or the use of technology to prescribe medication for abortion services and the morning-after pill.

Also fine by me. Are there any other drugs or RU-486 classification that a doctor can legally prescribe over the phone/computer? As for the MAP, anyone too young to buy the MAP as an OTC is not legally capable of giving consent in Michigan. The provision is there in an attempt to protect abuse victims.

Lorelle: FTA: the omnibus bill would criminalize all abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy, without exceptions for rape victims, the health of the woman or in cases where there is a severe fetal anomaly.

WTF?!?

"Pro-life," my ass. It's anti-life for women.

I am so sick of assholes who try to legislate forced childbirth. These are the same assholes who also want to deny people access to affordable health care.


Not saying I agree with the bill, but exceptions for the health of the mother grew from life/limb threatening conditions to minor psychological well-being. That is why they are doing this.
 
2012-06-08 12:41:47 AM  
These guys are complete cowards. They know that if they run on a platform that bans all abortions -- even in cases of incest, rape, fatal medical conditions, etc. -- they would never get elected. Instead they do this backhanded crap like making the clinics conform to certain building codes that effectively shut them down, especially since they don't have the money to for structural renovations. Congratulations Republicans, you're nothing but a bunch of sneaky, spineless pussies.
 
2012-06-08 12:50:03 AM  
ArkAngel,

To each of your points I respectfully offer the same rebuttal:

Unless you are the pregnant woman in question, it's really none of your farking business.
 
2012-06-08 01:10:23 AM  

ksdanj: ArkAngel,

To each of your points I respectfully offer the same rebuttal:

Unless you are the pregnant woman in question, it's really none of your farking business.


It's none of my business to attempt to ensure that women who do get abortions are properly cared for? That young girls aren't being taken advantage or? That people who provide surgical procedures do so in a proper place and with proper training?
 
2012-06-08 01:11:51 AM  
I'm pro-choice up to the age of 15.

"Sorry, little Billy, it's just not working out. Happy 7th birthday" - BLAM -
 
2012-06-08 01:16:02 AM  

ArkAngel: It's none of my business to attempt to ensure that women who do get abortions are properly cared for? That young girls aren't being taken advantage or? That people who provide surgical procedures do so in a proper place and with proper training?


There are already safeguards in place that address all of your 'concerns.'
 
2012-06-08 01:17:11 AM  

Lionel Mandrake: Specifically, the omnibus bill would criminalize all abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy, without exceptions for rape victims, the health of the woman or in cases where there is a severe fetal anomaly.

I can only assume that because they love life so much, even in the most extreme cases of deformity, that the Republicans will include a plan to pay for keeping brainless vegetables alive and fed and breathing for decades.

Right?


I'm sure the invisible hand of the free market will take care of it
 
2012-06-08 01:21:11 AM  

ArkAngel: As I respond to the bill


And I'm sure that response will have a profound impact on Michigan law. When the Michigan legislature drafts bills, they think, "what would some random internet Wisconsin guy think about this?"
 
2012-06-08 01:23:54 AM  

coco ebert: First Wisconsin, now Michigan? what's next- prayer in schools in Minnesota? I mean, does the Midwest really want the Bible Belt label?


wwp.greenwichmeantime.com
If that becomes the case, meet liberal Midwesterners' only hope.
You may not like the taxes (or dysfunctional state government), but when it comes to abortion Illinois does not have a waiting period nor does a parent need to be informed or consent. The system isn't perfect, but it's better than a lot of the Midwest. Out of the Midwestern states (IL, IA, MN, MO, WI, MI, IN, OH, by my definition) NARAL rated Illinois highest, with a B- in 2010 (MN and IA were next highest, with C+). Report here, list on page 3, map on page 4.
 
2012-06-08 01:28:42 AM  

ambassador_ahab: ArkAngel: As I respond to the bill

And I'm sure that response will have a profound impact on Michigan law. When the Michigan legislature drafts bills, they think, "what would some random internet Wisconsin guy think about this?"


So you only comment on Fark threads concerning your own state/country? I simply offered my opinion. It's not like I'm actively lobbying from across the lake.

ksdanj: ArkAngel: It's none of my business to attempt to ensure that women who do get abortions are properly cared for? That young girls aren't being taken advantage or? That people who provide surgical procedures do so in a proper place and with proper training?

There are already safeguards in place that address all of your 'concerns.'


Apparently not.
 
2012-06-08 01:37:19 AM  

ArkAngel: It's not like I'm actively lobbying from across the lake.


Good, because we have laws about "lobbying from across the lake," if you catch my drift. I'm all about alternative lifestyles, but you can see from this law that Michigan doesn't take kindly to those who like to "lobby across the lake."

Keep your lake lobbying private; it's not something we all want to watch.
 
2012-06-08 01:48:43 AM  
TFA: Specifically, the omnibus bill would criminalize all abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy, without exceptions for rape victims, the health of the woman or in cases where there is a severe fetal anomaly.

Wow, what a bunch of assholes. Talk about farking women out of their rights, this bill delivers.


ksdanj: To each of your points I respectfully offer the same rebuttal:

Unless you are the pregnant woman in question, it's really none of your farking business.


So much this.
 
2012-06-08 02:14:17 AM  

ArkAngel: There are already safeguards in place that address all of your 'concerns.'

Apparently not.


What are you basing that on?
 
2012-06-08 02:17:15 AM  

ArkAngel: It would require health centers that provide abortions to have surgery rooms, even when they don't provide surgical abortions. It would require doctors to be present for medication abortions and to screen women for "coercion" before providing an abortion,

I would call these reasonable. Many things can go wrong with an abortion (something like 10% have complications).


Citation, please?

Here are facts about abortion complications [from http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/safety_of_abortion.html] :

Since the Supreme Court reestablished legal abortion in the U.S. in the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, women have benefited from significant advances in medical technology and greater access to high-quality services. Generally, the earlier the abortion, the less complicated and safer it is.

Serious complications arising from aspiration abortions provided before 13 weeks are quite unusual. About 88% of the women who obtain abortions are less than 13 weeks pregnant. Of these women, 97% report no complications; 2.5% have minor complications that can be handled at the medical office or abortion facility; and less than 0.5% have more serious complications that require some additional surgical procedure and/or hospitalization.

Early medical abortions are limited to the first 9 weeks of pregnancy. Medical abortions have an excellent safety profile, with serious complications occurring in less than 0.5% of cases. Over the last five years, six women in North America have died as a result of toxic shock secondary to a rare bacterial infection of the uterus following medical abortion with mifepristone and misoprostol. This type of fatal infection has also been observed to occur following miscarriage, childbirth and surgical abortion, as well as other contexts unrelated to pregnancy. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's (CDC) continuing investigations have found no causal link between the medications and these incidents of infection. Although the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has issued an updated advisory for warning signs of infection following medical abortion, it has recommended that there be no changes in the current standards for provision of medical abortion.

Complication rates are somewhat higher for surgical abortions provided between 13 and 24 weeks than for the first-trimester procedures. General anesthesia, which is sometimes used in surgical abortion procedures of any gestation, carries its own risks.

In addition to the length of the pregnancy, significant factors that can affect the possibility of complications include:

the kind of anesthesia used;
the woman's overall health;
the abortion method used; and
the skill and training of the provider.

From the Guttmacher Institute: The risk of abortion complications is minimal: Fewer than 0.3% of abortion patients experience a complication that requires hospitalization.

Also, to repeat what another commenter said, unless you are the pregnant woman in question, it's none of your farking business.
 
2012-06-08 02:21:51 AM  
What the hell is wrong with you Michigan assholes!?

Did ya forget you're descended from people who despise being shiat on?
 
2012-06-08 02:29:59 AM  
Axiom: the taking of innocent life is wrong, whether through intent or neglect

Statement: an unborn child is an innocent life

Proposition: A fertilized egg is an unborn child

Statement: We punish intentional harm or neglect of a born child with legal consequences including imprisonment and the loss of parental rights.

Thus:
Any act which, by intent or neglect, causes the death of a fertilized egg is wrong, and should be subject to legal sanction

Axiom: At least 50% of fertilized eggs die due to non-implantation or other biological problems which prevent growth.

Axiom: An undefined, but nonzero, percentage of those deaths are caused by acts or omissions on the part of the mother, such as poor nutrition, drug use, or risky physical behaviors

Conclusion 1: Thus, to prevent the taking of innocent life, all pregnant women must be prevented from engaging in acts or omissions which may lead to the death of the fertilized egg.

Axiom: An undefined, but nonzero, percentage of women of childbearing age are pregnant for a period of time prior to their knowledge of this fact

Conclusion: ALL women of childbearing age must be subject to Conclusion 1 above

Corollary: As the legal system provides protection to born children, laws should be passed enforcing Conclusion 1 above.

Corollary: As medical science cannot, at present, remove a fertilized egg from a woman and grow it in a laboratory, the laws from the above corollary can not rely on present standards which would strip parental rights from a neglectful mother (we can't take the baby out of her by force). Thus, the legal force must revolve around imprisonment and forcible subjection to medical care based on the needs of the fetus.

Necessary conclusions based on the above:

• No woman of childbearing age should be allowed, under law, to smoke cigarettes.
• No woman of childbearing age should be allowed, under law, to drink alcohol
• No woman of childbearing age should be allowed, under law, to maintain an unhealthy weight
• No woman of childbearing age should be allowed, under law, to engage in body-contact sports
• No woman of childbearing age should be allowed, under law, to engage in dangerous sports of any kind
• No woman of childbearing age should be allowed, under law, to consume any drug, whether legally prescribed or not, which has been shown to have teratogenic, mutagenic, or fetotoxic effects, even to save her life.
• All women of childbearing age should be forced to take a pregnancy test every month, with results reported to the state, so that early pregnancies may be monitored by agents of the state
• All pregnant women should be forced to follow a medically prudent schedule of prenatal care, and should be forced, under penalty of imprisonment or other punishments, to abide by any rules given to her by her state-licensed obstetrician.

Contraproposition: Somewhere between fertilization and birth (inclusive), the unborn child gains "personhood" and the rights thereof. This point is by necessity arbitrary, as even the standard of "quickening" is mobile as medical science advances, and varies widely from pregnancy to pregnancy.

Corollary to contraproposition: Until the time point identified in the contraproposition, a pregnant (or potentially pregnant) woman should not be subject to governmental control of any kind which is designed to protect unborn life.

Alternative contraproposition: A child gains the rights of "personhood" at birth.

Corollary to alternative contraproposition: A woman should not be subject to governmental control of any kind which is designed to protect unborn "life".
 
2012-06-08 02:54:54 AM  

dahmers love zombie: Axiom: At least 50% of fertilized eggs die due to non-implantation or other biological problems which prevent growth.


Conclusion: "God" is the all-time Grand Champion of Abortionists.
 
2012-06-08 03:23:11 AM  
SPOUSAL CONSENT
Illinois has an unconstitutional and
unenforceable law mandating spousal
consent before a married

WHAT THE fark?!!

I really hate people.
 
2012-06-08 03:23:46 AM  
93 percent of Indiana
counties have no
abortion provider

way to punish your duaghters
 
2012-06-08 03:34:34 AM  

namatad: SPOUSAL CONSENT
Illinois has an unconstitutional and
unenforceable law mandating spousal
consent before a married

WHAT THE fark?!!

I really hate people.


Like I said, not perfect, but better than its neighbors.

I think when they say "unconstitutional and unenforceable" they mean that the law has been ruled as such, it just hasn't been struck from the law. Illinois's total abortion ban after 12 weeks (passed in 1997) was ruled as unconstitutional in Federal Court and it too is marked "unconstitutional and unenforceable" on NARAL's website.
 
2012-06-08 06:44:34 AM  
These people who pretend to find life so sacred are almost always the same people who hear about 200 children in Afghanistan being wiped out by a drone one day and say, "That's about right".
 
2012-06-08 06:48:37 AM  
This another one of those ALEC specials?
 
2012-06-08 06:50:02 AM  
That'll teach those poor and impoverished young women! Deal with the consequences of your lack of contraception, coupled with natural sexual urges, with another mouth to feed! The kid can't get any handouts either, let them mop the halls of their elementary school, it'll teach them responsibility while cutting gubment spending!

/these people don't appreciate their lot in life nearly enough, you can tell when they do this kind of shiat
//also, religion
 
2012-06-08 06:57:21 AM  
Way to keep big government out of my life Republicans.

/you idiots
 
2012-06-08 06:57:49 AM  

Lorelle: "Pro-life," my ass. It's anti-life for women.


starsmedia.ign.com

It makes so much sense now.
 
2012-06-08 06:59:03 AM  
If you were really pro-life, you'd be a little more concerned for the rights and well being of the women in question. You know, the women already born and in precarious enough positions in society that they would rather have abortions. Or even the women who don't want kids now but may want kids later or have already had all of the kids they want. That would be pro-family, even. But you're not pro-life. You're pro-birth. Birth all the time, in every circumstance, no matter how emotionally and physically painful for mother or child. You want that child that will only a few hours, weeks, or even a year or two in excruciating pain born. That is not pro-life. It is not even pro-quality of life. Please make that distinction.
 
2012-06-08 06:59:51 AM  

dahmers love zombie: Axiom: the taking of innocent life is wrong, whether through intent or neglect

Statement: an unborn child is an innocent life

Proposition: A fertilized egg is an unborn child

Statement: We punish intentional harm or neglect of a born child with legal consequences including imprisonment and the loss of parental rights.

Thus:
Any act which, by intent or neglect, causes the death of a fertilized egg is wrong, and should be subject to legal sanction

Axiom: At least 50% of fertilized eggs die due to non-implantation or other biological problems which prevent growth.

Axiom: An undefined, but nonzero, percentage of those deaths are caused by acts or omissions on the part of the mother, such as poor nutrition, drug use, or risky physical behaviors

Conclusion 1: Thus, to prevent the taking of innocent life, all pregnant women must be prevented from engaging in acts or omissions which may lead to the death of the fertilized egg.

Axiom: An undefined, but nonzero, percentage of women of childbearing age are pregnant for a period of time prior to their knowledge of this fact

Conclusion: ALL women of childbearing age must be subject to Conclusion 1 above

Corollary: As the legal system provides protection to born children, laws should be passed enforcing Conclusion 1 above.

Corollary: As medical science cannot, at present, remove a fertilized egg from a woman and grow it in a laboratory, the laws from the above corollary can not rely on present standards which would strip parental rights from a neglectful mother (we can't take the baby out of her by force). Thus, the legal force must revolve around imprisonment and forcible subjection to medical care based on the needs of the fetus.

Necessary conclusions based on the above:

• No woman of childbearing age should be allowed, under law, to smoke cigarettes.
• No woman of childbearing age should be allowed, under law, to drink alcohol
• No woman of childbearing age should be allowed, under law, to maintain an unhealthy we ...


Thanks for reposting this. I had forgotten where I first read it!

I have a few quibbles with it, legally, but the spirit is bang on.
 
2012-06-08 07:00:50 AM  

Alphax: This another one of those ALEC specials?


In conjunction with AUL, looks like it. Me personally, I'd like to allow for abortions up to the age of becoming a member of either organization.
 
2012-06-08 07:02:28 AM  

Lorelle: FTA: the omnibus bill would criminalize all abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy, without exceptions for rape victims, the health of the woman or in cases where there is a severe fetal anomaly.

WTF?!?

"Pro-life," my ass. It's anti-life for women.

I am so sick of assholes who try to legislate forced childbirth. These are the same assholes who also want to deny people access to affordable health care.


So, if they show that the mother will die from the birth, she will be arrested if she gets an abortion at that time?
 
2012-06-08 07:05:38 AM  

NeverDrunk23: So, if they show that the mother will die from the birth, she will be arrested if she gets an abortion at that time?


Of course. It's God's plan that she dies, and she's interfering with God's plan.

/makes it simple doesn't it? Everything that happens is God's will, and trying to change it is a SIN
 
2012-06-08 07:07:13 AM  
No way women who become pregnant after a rape will do everything unsafe possible to induce a miscarriage. Nope. They'll make fetal lemonade!
 
2012-06-08 07:10:19 AM  

ksdanj: ArkAngel,

To each of your points I respectfully offer the same rebuttal:

Unless you are the pregnant woman in question, it's really none of your farking business.


A better response:
The bill's sponsors say that this is an attempt to outlaw/shutdown all abortion clinics in the state, not to insure the health of women. All the points you make are meaningless, as they're lies.
 
2012-06-08 07:10:21 AM  

coco ebert: First Wisconsin, now Michigan? what's next- prayer in schools in Minnesota? I mean, does the Midwest really want the Bible Belt label?


It's not Bible Belt - it's rust belt. These old industrial states are dying. Their reason for existence was shipped overseas, mostly, and the young people (especially the women) are leaving. Old people are running things even more in those places than in the rest of the country.
The good news is that in ten years, the boomers are going to start dying and getting too senile to vote, and the median age of the voting population will normalize - but the next decade is going to suck, politically. These old farts are done, but they intend to use up and mess up as much of the world as they can before they exit it.
 
2012-06-08 07:10:46 AM  
2.bp.blogspot.com

Abortions on demand for everyone. No exceptions.

/abortions never killed anybody
 
2012-06-08 07:10:59 AM  
I have a friend who owns a pharmacy who is highly against this bill, because it includes a stipulation that the government can tell him who can and can't be his customer. While the religious right whines about the government telling them they have to provide their services to certain people, this bill is telling him he can't provide his services to certain people who are legally entitled to it. Specifically, people who fill certain prescriptions, legally, electronically. He sees it as government-enforced discrimination.
 
2012-06-08 07:12:24 AM  

eraser8: ArkAngel: There are already safeguards in place that address all of your 'concerns.'

Apparently not.

What are you basing that on?


I'd also like to know the answer to that question.
 
2012-06-08 07:21:14 AM  

namatad: 93 percent of Indiana
counties have no
abortion provider

way to punish your duaghters


and 25% of Indiana children are starving, especially in rural counties. I wonder if there's a cause/effect connection there.
 
2012-06-08 07:22:54 AM  
Abortifacients? Abortifascsists is more like it.

Also, Iowa would like you to know that we are open for aborto-business.
 
2012-06-08 07:24:20 AM  

BarrRepublican: Abortifacients? Abortifascsists is more like it.

Also, Iowa would like you to know that we are open for aborto-business.


Outsourcing at its finest.
 
2012-06-08 07:25:24 AM  
I'm soooo sick of these regressive, religious fascists...

The GOP is all about job creatin'... just look at all those jobs.
 
2012-06-08 07:25:33 AM  

BarrRepublican: Abortifacients? Abortifascsists is more like it.

Also, Iowa would like you to know that we are open for aborto-business.


I certainly hope your hotels keep a full stock of Aborto-flakes for when I have to pass through, I only choose inns that keep all of my Aborto-fast needs Aborto-sated. Aborto
 
2012-06-08 07:27:40 AM  
Abortion stops a beating.
 
2012-06-08 07:28:06 AM  
This will only send desperate women back to the black market. Which will probably result in more dead women. So, it's not really an answer.

I don't defend it as medically ethical (elective abortion), but I don't really want legislation of the unconstitutional variety to erase things I might personally find objectionable.

It's knee-jerk, it's responsive to special interest groups and it is intellectually dishonest.

Equal protection of law begins at birth. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is, IMO.
 
2012-06-08 07:37:41 AM  

dahmers love zombie: Statement: an unborn child is an innocent life


Failure: According to the bible that many of the anti choice crowd swears by, we come into this world with original sin, so an unborn child would not be innocent according to their own scripture.
 
2012-06-08 07:37:46 AM  

AmorousRedDragon: BarrRepublican: Abortifacients? Abortifascsists is more like it.

Also, Iowa would like you to know that we are open for aborto-business.

I certainly hope your hotels keep a full stock of Aborto-flakes for when I have to pass through, I only choose inns that keep all of my Aborto-fast needs Aborto-sated. Aborto


And that settles it. I'm working "aborto" into all of my client meetings today.

Oh, you need to aborto your parenting plan? What's that, you would like to aborto your child support agreement? So you say you want to aborto all of your debt obligations?

Oh, no worries, I'm Spanish, that's Spanish for "terminate."
 
2012-06-08 07:39:54 AM  

ArkAngel: It is reasonable to extend the protected time period for unborn children as medicine advances.


It hasn't advanced that much. The earliest survived preterm birth is 21 weeks, which was measured from the date of an IVF conception. The method of estimating a natural pregnancy would call this 23 weeks. No naturally conceived baby born at a normally-measured 20 weeks gestation is going to survive. Furthermore, to protect themselves, doctors are likely to refuse to perform abortions from 18 weeks because the actual gestation might be the proscribed 20 weeks. You're proposing to further limit women's autonomy to protect a period of fetal viability that does not exist.

Besides which, the argument that a woman should be required to continue a pregnancy from the moment it becomes theoretically possible to deploy extremely expensive mechanical and medical means to sustain a preterm infant is loaded with illogical assumptions from the get-go. It says we respect a woman's autonomy until something that isn't going to happen could happen. It says the rarest exception of someone surviving extreme preterm birth proves personhood generally begins at that time. By that logic we could also say a woman's childbearing years begin at age 5 because of Lina Medina.
 
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