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(American Thinker)   While the failures of public labor unions in Wisconsin get all the air time, no one is bothering to mention the ass kicking they took in California   (americanthinker.com) divider line 206
    More: Cool, Wisconsin, unions, welfare reform, losers  
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2724 clicks; posted to Politics » on 07 Jun 2012 at 12:58 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-07 02:00:51 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


Over 20% of the city budget for pensions, and growing. Please justify closing libraries so someone can retire at age 50. Are you really this blindly partisan?
 
2012-06-07 02:02:41 PM  

BeesNuts: Someone should tell people that it takes two to sign a contract, and that maybe they should consider that when they elect people to represent their interests when negotiating these contracts.

I guess it's easier to get mad at the people who are apparently just so damned good at negotiation that mayors and county executives are powerless to present a counteroffer.


Then watch the same people turn around in Equal Pay threads and biatch about how great their skillz are and how it's really up to you to ensure you are paid what you deserve.
 
2012-06-07 02:03:32 PM  

DarwiOdrade: fracto73: DarwiOdrade: [thinkprogress.org image 460x329]
Unions have been getting their asses kicked for a while now, just like the middle class. Maybe the pace is speeding up as anti-union corporate power increases, but this is nothing new.

Each set of numbers having an independant y-axis invalidates the usefulness of the chart. Using that method you could take any 2 decreasing numbers and align them to make a similar point.

No it doesn't - correlation doesn't have to be one-to-one to be valid.


Correlation also doesnt mean a causal relationship.
 
2012-06-07 02:04:45 PM  

vpb: Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.

That's kind of typical. They also try to devalue science and education because they are ignorant rather than learn. They want to stop immigration rather than acquire skills so they don't have to compete for unskilled jobs.

Generally they are people who want to pull others down to their level rather than improve themselves.


Kinda like taxing the rich more?
 
2012-06-07 02:07:18 PM  

fat boy: vpb: Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.

That's kind of typical. They also try to devalue science and education because they are ignorant rather than learn. They want to stop immigration rather than acquire skills so they don't have to compete for unskilled jobs.

Generally they are people who want to pull others down to their level rather than improve themselves.

Kinda like taxing the rich more?


Because increasing tax rates on millionaires by three percent will make the guy have to sell all of his cars and rent a shiatty apartment next to mine.

/nice grasp
 
2012-06-07 02:08:23 PM  
The public at large voted against something public sector employees wanted. How are private corporations involved?
 
2012-06-07 02:08:31 PM  

Wangiss: DarwiOdrade: Wangiss: DarwiOdrade: fracto73: DarwiOdrade: [thinkprogress.org image 460x329]
Unions have been getting their asses kicked for a while now, just like the middle class. Maybe the pace is speeding up as anti-union corporate power increases, but this is nothing new.

Each set of numbers having an independant y-axis invalidates the usefulness of the chart. Using that method you could take any 2 decreasing numbers and align them to make a similar point.

No it doesn't - correlation doesn't have to be one-to-one to be valid.

I wonder if public perception of the value of union membership has decreased because unions didn't keep wages up like they promised.

Naw, correlation probably equals causation after all.

Nice strawman you got there, especially since I didn't say anything about cause and effect.

Did I say that you said anything about cause and effect? Look really hard. There's a term people use for when others argue against statements that have not been made. You're doing it. You may find that term on the page as well.


This holier-than-thou sage character is already old and I'm only familiar with it in this one specific thread... jesus, who taught you rhetoric? Neil Boortz?
 
2012-06-07 02:11:16 PM  

monoski: killershark: I think something is wrong with me. I'm a Democrat and former union member myself [albeit the whitest white collar union you've ever seen] and I'm OK with this. These are government employees paid for with tax-payer dollars and at some point, especially in a state like California, there has to be a balance between government spending and the pensions paid to employees. The people who voted against it are probably similar to the union workers -- they're middle class people who see their taxes increasing while living paycheck to paycheck despite having a college degree and a good job. If you have to choose between a government worker getting a cushy pension or having a little more money in your pockets or the potholes in your street fixed, what are you going to choose? It sucks, but as more baby boomers retire and suck off government pensions, more of these government programs will see serious cuts -- and that's not even including social security.

Californians have always had an issue with the + and - concept. They want a lot of things +'s but continually vote not to pay for them -'s so the system is badly strained and likely to fail under its own weight at some point.


That's actually not quite accurate. Californians vote to pay for shiat, but then the Republicans in the legislature refuse to raise taxes to pay for said shiat. In CA, the legislature must have a 67% supermajority to pass a budget, which is why practically every year there's a budget crisis. CA is Blue, but it's not 67% Blue.
 
2012-06-07 02:12:37 PM  
I helped torch SB 5 so I'm really getting a kick out of this thread.
 
2012-06-07 02:14:33 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


I think people (ok, me) are upset that PUBLIC sector unions get not just "better" pensions, but outrageous pensions that are making states go bankrupt. When a cop can call in sick for his regular shift, but then show up for his overtime shift to make more money, that's complete and utter crap. When a firefighter makes more money after retirement than he does while on the job, that's hurting people, and ultimately will lead to worse public services for those of us who pay taxes so we can have firefighters who are actually working. I've got no problem with a union that can successfully negotiate or even hold hostage a corporation for better money or benefits, but I do have a big problem with people who make their money off the government teet being able to do it. I guess if I were a cop or firefighter or teacher or city secretary, I'd rather see a slightly lower wage and higher benefits than risk being out of a job completely. When the states and cities go broke, who do they think is going to pay them?
 
2012-06-07 02:14:36 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: BeesNuts: Someone should tell people that it takes two to sign a contract, and that maybe they should consider that when they elect people to represent their interests when negotiating these contracts.

I guess it's easier to get mad at the people who are apparently just so damned good at negotiation that mayors and county executives are powerless to present a counteroffer.

And when counteroffers are presented, they are accused of wanting to bust up unions and destroy the middle class. No win situation.


Maybe cause they present those counter offers, not to the unions, but to the press. And because, particularly in the case of wisconsin teachers, the unions have agreed to pay freezes, pay cuts, pension reduction, increased health care contribution, etc and were STILL called greedy leeches.

You make it sound like Walker went up to some jackbooted, bespectacled, suit-demon with a ragged piece of paper in his hand that showed the states finances in shambles, and respectfully asked if they could maybe, possibly consider not robbing the people of the state, and the union boss laughed in his face, walked up to the nearest non-union citizen and kicked them in the balls before knocking some kids ice cream cone out of his hand.

The power dynamic is important. The audience of these negotiations is important. Negotiating in good faith is important. Otherwise you're not so much negotiating as ... yeah... trying to beat up the unions for partisan brownie points.

You know this. I know you know this because you and I have had this exact conversation at least twice in the past.
 
2012-06-07 02:14:54 PM  

Epoch_Zero: killershark: If you have to choose between a government worker getting a cushy pension or having a little more money in your pockets or the potholes in your street fixed, what are you going to choose? It sucks, but as more baby boomers retire and suck off government pensions, more of these government programs will see serious cuts -- and that's not even including social security.

I would choose the option that fixes problems in both areas: increase taxes on the rich to an appropriate level for modern society.


I totally agree with that. I may be liberal but I consider myself fiscally conservative. But who in the government anymore is fiscally conservative? Even the Tea Partyers won't stand up to Republicans and tell them to cut defense spending, which is a huge chunk of our budget.

And in California, it doesn't take much to get an amendment on the ballot and get it passed. You want to raise taxes on the wealthy, get some signatures and hope 50% of the people vote for it, but good luck with that. This is also the state that voted down a $1 tax on cigarettes to pay for things like cancer research and public health issues related to cancer illnesses because of all the ads paid for by Philip Morris and RJ Reynolds.
 
2012-06-07 02:16:08 PM  

sabreWulf07: Bound and determined to do this all over again, eh? Do it. Vote yourselves into serfdom. It's what America deserves.

museum.nist.gov


I'm worried America will come to resemble a different book:

i43.tower.com
 
2012-06-07 02:17:03 PM  

FilmBELOH20: pensions that are making states go bankrupt.


No.
 
2012-06-07 02:18:04 PM  

themindiswatching: Let's just ban unions already and get it over with. I'm sure a future President Romney can use a strike as a terrorist act and put all of them on the State Department's terrorist list or something.



Breaking news, ANOTHER TEAMSTER has crashed into the south tower.
 
2012-06-07 02:20:24 PM  
I'll bet if California were shaped more like a fist, the unions would have won.
 
2012-06-07 02:21:16 PM  

Parthenogenetic: I'm worried America will come to resemble a different book:


Sweet! Those Eloi chicks are hot!
 
2012-06-07 02:22:56 PM  

LectertheChef: beta_plus: Wish I had known about this. Would have made yesterday's tears of impotent rage all that much sweeter.

Goodfella: Citizen's United is allowing the 0.1% to turn states like Wisconsin and California into Alabama.

You mean a state where industry and manufacturers want to set up business. Sounds like hell.

Yeah, because California being America's biggest industrial state and the world's 8th largest economy is totally proof that nobody wants to do business there, ever.


Funny, it used to be the 7th largest economy in the world. Looks like people don't like doing business there like they used to.
 
2012-06-07 02:24:22 PM  

DarwiOdrade: Bill_Wick's_Friend: cman: WTF is wrong with me today?

Same thing that's wrong with you most days.

Your knee-jerk need to declare "Obama bad! Unions bad! Both sides wrong so vote Republican!" overrides your brain. Your car is in "drive" before the keys are in the ignition.

But he's totally not a conservative, and don't you dare say he is!


Yes, I am the rightest of the right, a proud Republican donor! My great Republican ideology of marriage equality, transgender equality (changing ones birth certificate to indicate their correct gender), freedom to burn the American flag, ensuring that church and state stay separate, ending the war on drugs, the legalization of all drugs, ensuring a proper treatment for the GITMO detainees (who should have legal representation), anti-racism and support for the 1964 civil rights voting act, and the big one, not worshiping with all of my heart the armed forces. Very Republican, aint i?
 
2012-06-07 02:27:12 PM  

cman: DarwiOdrade: Bill_Wick's_Friend: cman: WTF is wrong with me today?

Same thing that's wrong with you most days.

Your knee-jerk need to declare "Obama bad! Unions bad! Both sides wrong so vote Republican!" overrides your brain. Your car is in "drive" before the keys are in the ignition.

But he's totally not a conservative, and don't you dare say he is!

Yes, I am the rightest of the right, a proud Republican donor! My great Republican ideology of marriage equality, transgender equality (changing ones birth certificate to indicate their correct gender), freedom to burn the American flag, ensuring that church and state stay separate, ending the war on drugs, the legalization of all drugs, ensuring a proper treatment for the GITMO detainees (who should have legal representation), anti-racism and support for the 1964 civil rights voting act, and the big one, not worshiping with all of my heart the armed forces. Very Republican, aint i?


Oh, and to top it all off, I supported the recall against Walker, and I wanted the Democrat nominee to take it home. I was very active in those threads and I gave my reasons why I supported it. But, to save you the trouble, I will sum it up: I wanted Walker out for his hyper-partisanship and for denying teachers the right to have collective bargaining as a right. I wanted the GOP to be humbled (maybe they would have stopped much of their bullshiat if they were)

But of course, I am just one of those right-winged Republican bigots.
 
2012-06-07 02:27:18 PM  
CA is a great example of unions gone wrong....

The most egregiously coddled of the state's favored constituencies are California's public labor unions. This is partly the result of their bloated ranks: The percentage of unionized public employees in California is 20% higher than the national average. Even more important, though, is the unions' outsized influence. Awarded collective bargaining rights with nearly every sector of government during the 1960s and '70s, the unions subsequently exploded into a political force to be reckoned with and a primary cause of California's fiscal hemophilia.A far less visible but equally nefarious force is the California Correctional Peace Officers Association, the state's prison-guard union. With 33,000 members who wield extraordinary political clout, the Golden State's prison guards are also the best paid in the nation (many earn more than $100,000 a year). Owing to their tremendous financial support for Gray Davis, the prison guards managed in 2002 to secure the then-governor's approval of a contract that gave them a whopping 37% raise and increased their already considerable retirement benefits. As a result, California's prison guards have become the state's largest personnel expense, creating a situation in which the government's cost to house each prisoner is an astounding $45,000 per year.

But no matter how egregious their misconduct, California's public-school teachers can always skirt the consequences. With 340,000 members statewide, the California Teachers' Association is perhaps the most powerful interest group in state politics. In 2005, for instance, the organization spent nearly $60 million to defeat ballot measures aimed at bringing more accountability to California schools. And when budget agreements get hashed out in meetings of the state's notorious "big five" (the governor and the four legislative party leaders), the CTA is treated like an unnamed sixth party to the talks. It's no wonder, then, that despite having some of America's lowest-performing schools, California's teachers are the highest paid in the nation

And there is no way to understand California's fiscal catastrophe without first acknowledging the key role that union benefits have played. In 1999, the state legislature passed a financially reckless plan allowing the state's public-safety workers to retire with a pension equal to 90% of their salaries if they had served at least 30 years. This move led to a spate of "pension spiking," wherein public employees received dramatic pay increases in their last few years of service in order to feather their nests in retirement. With unused sick leave and vacation time also included in the benefit calculus, the state's obligations have multiplied at a dizzying rate. As a result, more than 5,000 former state employees now enjoy taxpayer-supported retirement packages of more than $100,000 per year.


Link
 
2012-06-07 02:27:21 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


THIS!
So.
Much.
THIS
 
2012-06-07 02:28:51 PM  

Kuta: monoski: Californians have always had an issue with the + and - concept. They want a lot of things +'s but continually vote not to pay for them -'s so the system is badly strained and likely to fail under its own weight at some point.

Not true. Prior to Prop 13 and the rise of Howard Jarvis, California DID pay for all the +'s. The "Taxpayer Revolt" threw everything out of whack. It's taken 35 years for things to get to this point because that's how long the government could hold off the inevitable.


Pretty much this.

Prop 13. I will always remember 1979 as the year my school band had to start selling candy
 
2012-06-07 02:30:05 PM  
The middle class tax rate should be doubled and the rich should pay no taxes. They do enough for society and we owe them as they provide jobs for us.
 
2012-06-07 02:49:03 PM  

Epoch_Zero: Parthenogenetic: I'm worried America will come to resemble a different book:

Sweet! Those Eloi chicks are hot!


4.bp.blogspot.com

Where da white women at?!
 
2012-06-07 02:55:56 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


I'm self-employed, so who am I going to organize against and make demands of, myself? Businesses in California are treated as barely-tolerated pariahs when they aren't being ATMs for the tax collectors. If I bust my ass and have to get by with a 401(k) and not inflation-adjusted lifetime health care and a 90% pension at 55, then so can a bunch of cubicle-dwelling barnacles encrusting the undercarriage of city and state government.
 
2012-06-07 02:56:51 PM  
A problem unique to public unions is collusion between politicians and the unions at the expense of everyone else. It doesn't happen everywhere, but when it does you end up with Montgomery County, MD. This is a county that so over-promised benefits to the teachers unions that 90 percent of their education spending goes towards personnel. The governor of the state passed the responsibility of funding teacher's pensions to individual counties because some counties would not stop promising benefits they couldn't afford. Even after raising taxes (again) this year, they still don't have enough money to cover the spread.

The reason all of this happened is because the unions paid off politicians to get them elected, the politicians turned around and gave the unions more money who in turn gave more money back to the politicians.

There is a difference between public and private-sector unions, and voters are aware of it. They aren't voting against the union as much as they are voting against the system that encourages their government to spend money on a very small group of taxpayers at the expense of everyone else. Yes, public union members are taxpayers, but that doesn't mean their issues are a higher priority than everyone else's. In bad situations like Maryland, even the Democrats are starting to realize that they have created a problem they can't possibly solve.
 
2012-06-07 02:59:38 PM  

jjorsett: I'm self-employed, so who am I going to organize against and make demands of, myself? Businesses in California are treated as barely-tolerated pariahs when they aren't being ATMs for the tax collectors. If I bust my ass and have to get by with a 401(k) and not inflation-adjusted lifetime health care and a 90% pension at 55, then so can a bunch of cubicle-dwelling barnacles encrusting the undercarriage of city and state government.


I like your point. Since you don't have to argue with anyone to get the benefits you deserve, neither should a public worker. You got yours, so fark everybody else.

/haha, no really, you're a terrible person
 
2012-06-07 02:59:52 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


Now think about the fact that the people in favor of gutting unions for this reason are the same ones that scream "politics of envy" when arguing against raising taxes on the rich one iota.
 
2012-06-07 03:06:41 PM  

sinisterben: BeesNuts: Someone should tell people that it takes two to sign a contract, and that maybe they should consider that when they elect people to represent their interests when negotiating these contracts.

I guess it's easier to get mad at the people who are apparently just so damned good at negotiation that mayors and county executives are powerless to present a counteroffer.

Then watch the same people turn around in Equal Pay threads and biatch about how great their skillz are and how it's really up to you to ensure you are paid what you deserve.


Should I not have done that? Was that bad?
 
2012-06-07 03:07:06 PM  

Lsherm: but when it does you end up with Montgomery County, MD.


You're linking to an opinion piece. I assume you're doing this to support your point. You're doing it wrong.

Lsherm: The reason all of this happened is because the unions paid off politicians to get them elected,


You mean, they donated?!? HOLY farkING ASSCRACKERS - CALL THE FBI!!

Lsherm: the politicians turned around and gave the unions more money


That seems like a terrible way to profit from corruption. Giving all of your money away, and the like. (Psst, it's illegal for politicians to give money to those who have contributed to their campaigns)

Lsherm: They aren't voting against the union as much as they are voting against the system that encourages their government to spend money on a very small group of taxpayers at the expense of everyone else


You mean like when they fund the military?

Lsherm: Yes, public union members are taxpayers, but that doesn't mean their issues are a higher priority than everyone else's.


No, but this is an issue specifically about public labor unions, so.... wait, what was your point?
 
2012-06-07 03:10:07 PM  

derpdeederp: DarwiOdrade: fracto73: DarwiOdrade: [thinkprogress.org image 460x329]
Unions have been getting their asses kicked for a while now, just like the middle class. Maybe the pace is speeding up as anti-union corporate power increases, but this is nothing new.

Each set of numbers having an independant y-axis invalidates the usefulness of the chart. Using that method you could take any 2 decreasing numbers and align them to make a similar point.

No it doesn't - correlation doesn't have to be one-to-one to be valid.

Correlation also doesnt mean a causal relationship.


Hi I'm looking for a causal relatiuonship with an esablished man. I'm 5'7", I like to keep house and I ncan cook Italian. I have never been married, but I think that's the way it shoud be, so if our relationship turns into something more, I just though you shoould know ahead of time.. If anyonwe is interested they can contact me at eip[at]fark.com
 
2012-06-07 03:14:37 PM  

BeesNuts: Wangiss: DarwiOdrade: Wangiss: DarwiOdrade: fracto73: DarwiOdrade: [thinkprogress.org image 460x329]
Unions have been getting their asses kicked for a while now, just like the middle class. Maybe the pace is speeding up as anti-union corporate power increases, but this is nothing new.

Each set of numbers having an independant y-axis invalidates the usefulness of the chart. Using that method you could take any 2 decreasing numbers and align them to make a similar point.

No it doesn't - correlation doesn't have to be one-to-one to be valid.

I wonder if public perception of the value of union membership has decreased because unions didn't keep wages up like they promised.

Naw, correlation probably equals causation after all.

Nice strawman you got there, especially since I didn't say anything about cause and effect.

Did I say that you said anything about cause and effect? Look really hard. There's a term people use for when others argue against statements that have not been made. You're doing it. You may find that term on the page as well.

This holier-than-thou sage character is already old and I'm only familiar with it in this one specific thread... jesus, who taught you rhetoric? Neil Boortz?


Unfortunately, I couldn't afford that series and had to go with the knock-off by Beil Noortz, which I can only assume was a Chinese guy's nomnomnom de plume. I'm like, do we have to outsource EVERYTHING?!

Actually, I was replying to a statement you made wherein you neglected to explicate your position, with a statement wherein I also refused to explicate my position. We can start over, but if you want to know what I think, you'll have to tell us what you think, rather than posting a graph of what some numbers think.
 
2012-06-07 03:14:42 PM  

Epoch_Zero: (Psst, it's illegal for politicians to give money to those who have contributed to their campaigns)


HA_HA_HA,_OH_WOW.jpg
 
2012-06-07 03:17:55 PM  

FilmBELOH20: Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.

I think people (ok, me) are upset that PUBLIC sector unions get not just "better" pensions, but outrageous pensions that are making states go bankrupt. When a cop can call in sick for his regular shift, but then show up for his overtime shift to make more money, that's complete and utter crap. When a firefighter makes more money after retirement than he does while on the job, that's hurting people, and ultimately will lead to worse public services for those of us who pay taxes so we can have firefighters who are actually working. I've got no problem with a union that can successfully negotiate or even hold hostage a corporation for better money or benefits, but I do have a big problem with people who make their money off the government teet being able to do it. I guess if I were a cop or firefighter or teacher or city secretary, I'd rather see a slightly lower wage and higher benefits than risk being out of a job completely. When the states and cities go broke, who do they think is going to pay them?


This one's settled: The federal government. I LOVE my city, county, and state. They provide completely amazing services. (I'm even fortunate enough to be in a good school district.) But what I get from the Fed they could give for less than they do. Seriously, guys? Iraq?
 
MFL
2012-06-07 03:22:00 PM  
Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


This OMG this!!!!

We should raise the minumum wage to $100 an hour!!! We're Americans for shiatsake! We can do anything!!
 
2012-06-07 03:27:26 PM  

BeesNuts: Someone should tell people that it takes two to sign a contract, and that maybe they should consider that when they elect people to represent their interests when negotiating these contracts.

I guess it's easier to get mad at the people who are apparently just so damned good at negotiation that mayors and county executives are powerless to present a counteroffer.


this
 
2012-06-07 03:29:30 PM  
You know what's pathetic? A representative for a state can get a pension and free healthcare for life for just 2 years of work but expecting public employees like firefighters and cops who put their lives on the line every day for 25-30 years can go fark themselves.

America is sick
 
2012-06-07 03:31:15 PM  

Guidette Frankentits: You know what's pathetic? A representative for a state can get a pension and free healthcare for life for just 2 years of work but expecting public employees like firefighters and cops who put their lives on the line every day for 25-30 years can go fark themselves.

America is sick


Okay, everybody... I don't know, so I'm asking: Is there partial pension in CA, or is it all or nothing?
 
2012-06-07 03:35:44 PM  

Wangiss: Okay, everybody... I don't know, so I'm asking: Is there partial pension in CA, or is it all or nothing?


Here
 
2012-06-07 03:42:35 PM  

Guidette Frankentits: Wangiss: Okay, everybody... I don't know, so I'm asking: Is there partial pension in CA, or is it all or nothing?

Here


Oh, cools. CalPERS exists. Thanks, Guidette!
 
2012-06-07 03:43:31 PM  
Here's another thing, you don't pay people a good pension they're gonna have to stay in the service longer and incur more job related injuries. Then the stupid tea bagging assholes wonder why there are so many people on disability. Gee, I wonder WHY fark stick??!?

Some public employees may have to get a job after retiring. That sucks up all the jobs for teens and young people. Then you supposed bootstrappy "Fark you I got mine" piece of shiats wonder why kids don't get jobs. Gee, I wonder WHY cock suckers?!?!

See what happens when you fark with things?
 
2012-06-07 03:49:28 PM  

Guidette Frankentits: Here's another thing, you don't pay people a good pension they're gonna have to stay in the service longer and incur more job related injuries. Then the stupid tea bagging assholes wonder why there are so many people on disability. Gee, I wonder WHY fark stick??!?

Some public employees may have to get a job after retiring. That sucks up all the jobs for teens and young people. Then you supposed bootstrappy "Fark you I got mine" piece of shiats wonder why kids don't get jobs. Gee, I wonder WHY cock suckers?!?!

See what happens when you fark with things?


Do you mean this for desk jockeys as well?
 
2012-06-07 03:59:49 PM  

cman: But of course, I am just one of those right-winged Republican bigots.


I said you were a conservative, not a Republican. Republicans haven't been conservative for years.
 
MFL
2012-06-07 04:05:52 PM  
xalres
Now think about the fact that the people in favor of gutting unions for this reason are the same ones that scream "politics of envy" when arguing against raising taxes on the rich one iota

Unions can play the victim all day long, but this working class hero crap doesn't stick too well when the people that are paying for them to retire at 55 with full benefits and a generous pension could only imagine having that luxury themselves.

In a free economy the private sector is higher on the economic food chain than the public sector. When that truth becomes reversed, you get whats going on in Greece and Spain right now.
 
2012-06-07 04:06:35 PM  
wheres that chart that shows that govenment pay was supposed to keep up with private pay because private pay was just skyrocketing when the middle class was growing, its just that private pay stagnated and fell while government pay continued the trend... is it that government pay should be lowered or that private workers are just not moving....
 
2012-06-07 04:15:06 PM  

vernonFL: California VOTERS are the idiots. What did they think would happen when they decided to throw everyone in prison with a "3 strikes" law? So California has overcrowded prisons now, and has to build more prisons and has to staff those prisons. Also they need more police more judges more lawyers, etc...All public sector workers.


California is an object lesson in why direct democracy doesn't work. They really need to shift back to a more republican system, and we as a country need to learn from their mistakes.
 
2012-06-07 04:21:01 PM  
I have to question why these cities squealing about pension obligations weren't putting away the money they were supposed to for all these years to fund these obligations they willingly and legally contracted for. I mean, it's not like they couldn't do the math, is it?
 
2012-06-07 04:21:54 PM  

killershark: I think something is wrong with me. I'm a Democrat and former union member myself [albeit the whitest white collar union you've ever seen] and I'm OK with this. These are government employees paid for with tax-payer dollars and at some point, especially in a state like California, there has to be a balance between government spending and the pensions paid to employees. The people who voted against it are probably similar to the union workers -- they're middle class people who see their taxes increasing while living paycheck to paycheck despite having a college degree and a good job. If you have to choose between a government worker getting a cushy pension or having a little more money in your pockets or the potholes in your street fixed, what are you going to choose? It sucks, but as more baby boomers retire and suck off government pensions, more of these government programs will see serious cuts -- and that's not even including social security.


This.


LectertheChef: To be fair, San Diego's pension plan has been farked up for quite awhile, and something had to be done. I don't know if 401k's were the best answer, but something had to happen. Most people know that this has been the fault of the city council, and the dumbasses who were supposed to be managing the pension fund. Those that don't realize this listen to Roger Hedgecock.


This.


Kuta: I live in Vallejo, CA and am getting a kick out of these replies.

Pensions are unsustainable, economically and politically. I am all for labor negotiating whatever terms they can get with respect to wages, but tying the hands of the body politic for decades into the future is ethically wrong. Public sector union members (yes, this means police and fire safety too) should do a bit of self-reflection and see that the rest of us really don't think its fair that you get a free retirement on our shoulders. Sorry, that's just how it is.


And this.

The public employee pension programs in California are unsustainable in their current form. Anyone who argues otherwise is a liar. In the absence of the unions agreeing to some heavy duty compromises, the voters are going to take matters into their own hands.
 
2012-06-07 04:22:22 PM  

MFL: xalres
Now think about the fact that the people in favor of gutting unions for this reason are the same ones that scream "politics of envy" when arguing against raising taxes on the rich one iota

Unions can play the victim all day long, but this working class hero crap doesn't stick too well when the people that are paying for them to retire at 55 with full benefits and a generous pension could only imagine having that luxury themselves.

In a free economy the private sector is higher on the economic food chain than the public sector. When that truth becomes reversed, you get whats going on in Greece and Spain right now.


I'm just pointing out how amusing it is that the people who decry the left for engaging in envy politics turn around and try to gut unions because "they have it better than us".
 
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