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(American Thinker)   While the failures of public labor unions in Wisconsin get all the air time, no one is bothering to mention the ass kicking they took in California   (americanthinker.com) divider line 206
    More: Cool, Wisconsin, unions, welfare reform, losers  
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2724 clicks; posted to Politics » on 07 Jun 2012 at 12:58 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



206 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-06-07 10:04:15 AM  
Corporate media biased towards unions?

Color me shocked
 
2012-06-07 10:18:55 AM  

cman: Corporate media biased towards unions?

Color me shocked


Did you just take the conclusion of an American Thinker article and respond "Well, duh"? Shame on you.
 
2012-06-07 10:19:40 AM  
So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.
 
2012-06-07 10:20:32 AM  

kingoomieiii: cman: Corporate media biased towards unions?

Color me shocked

Did you just take the conclusion of an American Thinker article and respond "Well, duh"? Shame on you.


No. I said in that thread that I could not read past the second paragraph.
 
2012-06-07 10:22:25 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


Corporate brainwashing is complete.
 
2012-06-07 10:23:42 AM  
California VOTERS are the idiots. What did they think would happen when they decided to throw everyone in prison with a "3 strikes" law? So California has overcrowded prisons now, and has to build more prisons and has to staff those prisons. Also they need more police more judges more lawyers, etc...All public sector workers.
 
2012-06-07 10:24:08 AM  

cman: kingoomieiii: cman: Corporate media biased towards unions?

Color me shocked

Did you just take the conclusion of an American Thinker article and respond "Well, duh"? Shame on you.

No. I said in that thread that I could not read past the second paragraph.


OH WOW

My reading comprehension is worse today than normal.

fark
 
2012-06-07 10:28:20 AM  

kingoomieiii: Did you just take the conclusion of an American Thinker article and respond "Well, duh"? Shame on you.


You're just being negative because American Thinker said something anti-liberal.
 
2012-06-07 10:30:13 AM  

kronicfeld: kingoomieiii: Did you just take the conclusion of an American Thinker article and respond "Well, duh"? Shame on you.

You're just being negative because American Thinker said something anti-liberal.


Let me know when they say something pro-liberal. That's the day I stop being one.
 
2012-06-07 10:32:46 AM  

cman: Corporate media biased towards unions?

Color me shocked


WTF is wrong with me today?

Why is my reading comprehension so farking poor?
 
2012-06-07 10:34:51 AM  

cman: Corporate media biased towards unions?

Color me shocked


I sure would be shocked if corporations were fellating labor.
 
2012-06-07 10:45:27 AM  

kronicfeld: kingoomieiii: Did you just take the conclusion of an American Thinker article and respond "Well, duh"? Shame on you.

You're just being negative because American Thinker said something anti-liberal.


I'm being negative because American Thinker publishes only anti-reality articles, and still gets greened. Even with headlines that paraphrase the article's premise and contain zero jokes.

Oh well. I guess it's seriously not news, because half the shiat the man is afraid of isn't farking real.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-06-07 11:07:02 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


That's kind of typical. They also try to devalue science and education because they are ignorant rather than learn. They want to stop immigration rather than acquire skills so they don't have to compete for unskilled jobs.

Generally they are people who want to pull others down to their level rather than improve themselves.
 
2012-06-07 11:07:30 AM  
There's no way all this anti-union BS will come back to bite the American worker in the ass down the line. Nope, no possible way.
 
2012-06-07 11:39:47 AM  
Corporate media biased towards unions?


holy fark is this not the dumbest sentence ever committed to the electronic ether?
 
2012-06-07 11:46:32 AM  

Lando Lincoln: Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.

Corporate brainwashing is complete.


Get out, everybody. Get out of the corporate game if you don't love it. You can start a business. You really can. It's like $175 for a license, depending where you live. I did it when I was 14, and I'm a fecking moron. You can do it! Don't trade your freedom to an employer. If the government made you work 8 hours a day for them just to get by, you'd be murdering those assholes in the streets. I realize working for a corporation is voluntary, but if you don't feel fulfilled or it starts to feel less than advantageous, find something else, I implore you. Get into a family-based business that works or become a partner in something. You don't have to stay in an abusive relationship. You can take charge of your life.

Do we all love corporations so much that we can't bear to leave them? There are other options.

You do not have to stay in a relationship you feel abused in. You don't.


No, you don't.
 
2012-06-07 11:52:01 AM  
Voters in San Diego and San Jose, the 8th and tenth biggest municipalities in the United States, decisively voted to redistribute income from the rich (public employees) to the middle class

Stopped reading there

/you f*cking moron, WHO DO YOU THINK THE MIDDLE CLASS TAXPAYERS ARE?
 
2012-06-07 12:04:20 PM  

Jackson Herring: Corporate media biased towards unions?


holy fark is this not the dumbest sentence ever committed to the electronic ether?


"Christianity has never engaged in genocide"
 
2012-06-07 12:05:33 PM  

vernonFL: California VOTERS are the idiots. What did they think would happen when they decided to throw everyone in prison with a "3 strikes" law? So California has overcrowded prisons now, and has to build more prisons and has to staff those prisons. Also they need more police more judges more lawyers, etc...All public sector workers.


JOBS!!!!!1! Why do you hate the economy?
 
2012-06-07 12:06:14 PM  

kingoomieiii: Jackson Herring: Corporate media biased towards unions?


holy fark is this not the dumbest sentence ever committed to the electronic ether?

"Christianity has never engaged in genocide"


"I did not have sexual relations with that woman."

"Mission Accomplished."
 
2012-06-07 12:10:32 PM  
thinkprogress.org
Unions have been getting their asses kicked for a while now, just like the middle class. Maybe the pace is speeding up as anti-union corporate power increases, but this is nothing new.
 
2012-06-07 12:21:21 PM  
This society is farked up when Corporations, whose only reason for existence is to make money for the shareholders and protect it are praised, while Unions, whose reason for creation was to protect workers, are vilified.

Corporations are people and unions are evil, apparently. Unfarkingbelievable.
 
2012-06-07 12:28:02 PM  
Let's just ban unions already and get it over with. I'm sure a future President Romney can use a strike as a terrorist act and put all of them on the State Department's terrorist list or something.

/we actually WANT to be a third world shiathole out of a misplaced sense of "independence".
 
2012-06-07 12:28:45 PM  

Wangiss: Get out, everybody. Get out of the corporate game if you don't love it. You can start a business. You really can. It's like $175 for a license, depending where you live.


Commercial brewer's licenses cost a good deal more than that.
 
2012-06-07 12:29:03 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: This society is farked up when Corporations, whose only reason for existence is to make money for the shareholders and protect it are praised, while Unions, whose reason for creation was to protect workers, are vilified.

Corporations are people and unions are evil, apparently. Unfarkingbelievable.


I dunno, man. Seems like the movement that brought us unions here was pretty important. The Labor movement got us the 40-hour week, an extra holiday, and even aided feminists in the fight against sex discrimination in the workplace. But is there no point at which their efforts get, I dunno, ridiculous? Unions negotiate for the workers, which is fine, but Public Unions also get to vote their boss in, then use a portion (dues) of the tax money the boss gives them as campaign donations. You don't see a conflict of interest there?
 
2012-06-07 12:31:46 PM  
Also, if corporations are so butthurt about unions, why not provide awesome benefits in advance so that they can't take root in the first place? Oh right, that means that the CEO won't be able to afford his 5th Gulfstream jet.
 
2012-06-07 12:33:13 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Wangiss: Get out, everybody. Get out of the corporate game if you don't love it. You can start a business. You really can. It's like $175 for a license, depending where you live.

Commercial brewer's licenses cost a good deal more than that.


Building a power plant does, too.
 
2012-06-07 12:37:02 PM  

themindiswatching: Also, if corporations are so butthurt about unions, why not provide awesome benefits in advance so that they can't take root in the first place? Oh right, that means that the CEO won't be able to afford his 5th Gulfstream jet.


The company I'm working with right now does that (the bennefits, not the jet). It's consistently voted best to work for in the region. It's easy to bring in good talent that way.
 
2012-06-07 12:37:03 PM  

Wangiss: Lando Lincoln: Wangiss: Get out, everybody. Get out of the corporate game if you don't love it. You can start a business. You really can. It's like $175 for a license, depending where you live.

Commercial brewer's licenses cost a good deal more than that.

Building a power plant does, too.


So you're refuting your own premise? Uh...okay.
 
2012-06-07 12:42:42 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Wangiss: Lando Lincoln: Wangiss: Get out, everybody. Get out of the corporate game if you don't love it. You can start a business. You really can. It's like $175 for a license, depending where you live.

Commercial brewer's licenses cost a good deal more than that.

Building a power plant does, too.

So you're refuting your own premise? Uh...okay.


No, I'm not refuting my own premise. Think harder.
 
2012-06-07 12:50:59 PM  

Wangiss: I dunno, man. Seems like the movement that brought us unions here was pretty important. The Labor movement got us the 40-hour week, an extra holiday, and even aided feminists in the fight against sex discrimination in the workplace. But is there no point at which their efforts get, I dunno, ridiculous? Unions negotiate for the workers, which is fine, but Public Unions also get to vote their boss in, then use a portion (dues) of the tax money the boss gives them as campaign donations. You don't see a conflict of interest there?


Sure I do. But to the GOP, Corporations are blessed entities, the paragon of all that is good and holy, the beacon of free market freedom, and as such should have no restrictions or regulations on them, even though they exist to do one thing: make money, and keep it, regardless of who gets farked over in the process, even if if is the entire nation that suffers.

Unions at least started out as a way to protect workers (from those same Corporations, BTW,) and while they have their share of corruption, it is nowhere near what goes on in corporate America.

The amount of vitriol thrown at unions is vastly disproportionate to that which is thrown at corporations, who deserve it much more, and who are being given more and more power and rights while unions are having theirs stripped away.
 
2012-06-07 01:01:18 PM  
I don't got mine, fark you?


Good thing the pension reform in San Jose will be overturned. The city has contracts with the Public Employee Unions that they signed off on. No judge in their right mind would void those contracts.
 
2012-06-07 01:01:34 PM  
Yeah, kick their asses. We don't need public service employees. The zombie apocalypse is coming and it will be everyone for themselves!
 
2012-06-07 01:02:00 PM  
It's surprising how many Americans are anti-labor.

They might rethink their position when they're homeless.
 
2012-06-07 01:02:42 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


Yep, that's always the way I've viewed it as well. Instead of organizing to make their own pay and benefits better they'd rather screw everyone who is doing better than them. I've never really understood it myself.
 
2012-06-07 01:03:51 PM  
The first sentence of the article was: "Voters in San Diego and San Jose, the 8th and tenth biggest municipalities in the United States, decisively voted to redistribute income from the rich (public employees) to the middle class taxpayers who earn far less on average."

WTF?

Is this an attempt at deflection, brain-breaking cognitive dissonance, or just colossal dickery?
 
2012-06-07 01:04:58 PM  
it's a harbinger.

tremble and weep more.
 
2012-06-07 01:06:45 PM  

vernonFL: California VOTERS are the idiots. What did they think would happen when they decided to throw everyone in prison with a "3 strikes" law? So California has overcrowded prisons now, and has to build more prisons and has to staff those prisons. Also they need more police more judges more lawyers, etc...All public sector workers.


No, you just set up private prisons, private security guards, etc. What commie Euro nation are you from?
 
2012-06-07 01:07:39 PM  

DarwiOdrade: [thinkprogress.org image 460x329]
Unions have been getting their asses kicked for a while now, just like the middle class. Maybe the pace is speeding up as anti-union corporate power increases, but this is nothing new.



Each set of numbers having an independant y-axis invalidates the usefulness of the chart. Using that method you could take any 2 decreasing numbers and align them to make a similar point.
 
2012-06-07 01:10:15 PM  
As I said, somewhat more verbosely, elsewhere:

9/12/01: Remember the Heroes! Our brave boys in blue! Nothing is too good!

1/20/09: Ooooh hate public-sector unions! Cops! Firefighters! Janitors! TEACHERS!!!11

The same kind of doublethink behind "Buy American, you rice-burner-driving traitor!" along with "Let GM, Ford and Chrysler fail!"

Or "Freedom isn't free!" along with "Intrusive government! Reduce spending!"

Or the most concise example, "Keep your government hands off my Medicare."
 
2012-06-07 01:10:20 PM  

kronicfeld: You're just being negative because American Thinker said something anti-liberal.


Wow, if they said something anti-Libral, does that mean that Hell has frozen over? Oh wait, that's the same as the sky being up and water being blue. Get back to me when they say anything BUT anti-liberal screeds...
 
2012-06-07 01:11:32 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


You magnificent bastard. Putting that s**t right there on my facebook for the morons to argue over.
 
2012-06-07 01:11:46 PM  
Citizen's United is allowing the 0.1% to turn states like Wisconsin and California into Alabama.
 
2012-06-07 01:13:14 PM  

Needlessly Complicated: The first sentence of the article was: "Voters in San Diego and San Jose, the 8th and tenth biggest municipalities in the United States, decisively voted to redistribute income from the rich (public employees) to the middle class taxpayers who earn far less on average."

WTF?

Is this an attempt at deflection, brain-breaking cognitive dissonance, or just colossal dickery?


I don't know about you but when that 2012 BMW 650i Convertible cut me off in traffic yesterday the first thought that went through my mind was "goddamn public employee flaunting his riches and cutting me off in traffic".
 
2012-06-07 01:13:33 PM  
Damn those schoolteachers and firemen. Assholes. Why won't they just accept the pittance we offer them? Hell, they should be volunteering.
 
2012-06-07 01:14:59 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: Wangiss: I dunno, man. Seems like the movement that brought us unions here was pretty important. The Labor movement got us the 40-hour week, an extra holiday, and even aided feminists in the fight against sex discrimination in the workplace. But is there no point at which their efforts get, I dunno, ridiculous? Unions negotiate for the workers, which is fine, but Public Unions also get to vote their boss in, then use a portion (dues) of the tax money the boss gives them as campaign donations. You don't see a conflict of interest there?

Sure I do. But to the GOP, Corporations are blessed entities, the paragon of all that is good and holy, the beacon of free market freedom, and as such should have no restrictions or regulations on them, even though they exist to do one thing: make money, and keep it, regardless of who gets farked over in the process, even if if is the entire nation that suffers.

Unions at least started out as a way to protect workers (from those same Corporations, BTW,) and while they have their share of corruption, it is nowhere near what goes on in corporate America.

The amount of vitriol thrown at unions is vastly disproportionate to that which is thrown at corporations, who deserve it much more, and who are being given more and more power and rights while unions are having theirs stripped away.


Yeah, it's the public-private collusion that pisses me off. It's very difficult to sue someone for polluting upstream because the government "handles" that already. We gave them the authority to rule us, but we gave too much. Then they sold it because they can.

It would seem, however, that your coming to the defense (along with others who agree with you) of public unions by referring to private company unions actually aids the fight against unions as a whole. I'd love to be wrong about that.
 
2012-06-07 01:16:29 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


San Diego is quite conservative, thanks to all those military folks from out of town. I'm the rare San Diego native. Of course, I was born here because my grandfathers moved to San Diego from somewhere else when they were in the military during and after WWII.
 
2012-06-07 01:16:41 PM  

cman: WTF is wrong with me today?


Same thing that's wrong with you most days.

Your knee-jerk need to declare "Obama bad! Unions bad! Both sides wrong so vote Republican!" overrides your brain. Your car is in "drive" before the keys are in the ignition.
 
2012-06-07 01:17:12 PM  

ArkPanda: vernonFL: California VOTERS are the idiots. What did they think would happen when they decided to throw everyone in prison with a "3 strikes" law? So California has overcrowded prisons now, and has to build more prisons and has to staff those prisons. Also they need more police more judges more lawyers, etc...All public sector workers.

No, you just set up private prisons, private security guards, etc. What commie Euro nation are you from?


And the contracts you sign with the private prisons somehow don't save a farking dime and in fact actually costs more then the previous system. The guards get paid minimum wage instead of a living wage. It is what the republicans call a win/win, their friends get rich, the idiots that vote for them get screwed, those that don't vote them get pissed off at them which, in their fevered imaginations, means they are doing the right thing.
 
2012-06-07 01:17:48 PM  

Pincy: Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.

Yep, that's always the way I've viewed it as well. Instead of organizing to make their own pay and benefits better they'd rather screw everyone who is doing better than them. I've never really understood it myself.


Soviet Boris finds a genie bottle and is granted a wish: "I wish Ivan's goat would die!"

We are all Soviets now.

/moar caffeine
 
2012-06-07 01:18:27 PM  

dave2198: Damn those schoolteachers and firemen. Assholes. Why won't they just accept the pittance we offer them? Hell, they should be volunteering.


Sadly, most firefighters in the U.S. are volunteer. It's a Republican wet dream come true: "Hey you farking chump, run into that burning building, we won't even pay you!! But we'll make sure Snooki gets more money!"
 
2012-06-07 01:19:54 PM  

Bill_Wick's_Friend: cman: WTF is wrong with me today?

Same thing that's wrong with you most days.

Your knee-jerk need to declare "Obama bad! Unions bad! Both sides wrong so vote Republican!" overrides your brain. Your car is in "drive" before the keys are in the ignition.


But he's totally not a conservative, and don't you dare say he is!
 
2012-06-07 01:21:25 PM  

cmb53208: dave2198: Damn those schoolteachers and firemen. Assholes. Why won't they just accept the pittance we offer them? Hell, they should be volunteering.

Sadly, most firefighters in the U.S. are volunteer. It's a Republican wet dream come true: "Hey you farking chump, run into that burning building, we won't even pay you!! But we'll make sure Snooki gets more money!"


Republicans are supporting Snooki somehow?
 
2012-06-07 01:22:37 PM  

Zombie Jesus: ArkPanda: vernonFL: California VOTERS are the idiots. What did they think would happen when they decided to throw everyone in prison with a "3 strikes" law? So California has overcrowded prisons now, and has to build more prisons and has to staff those prisons. Also they need more police more judges more lawyers, etc...All public sector workers.

No, you just set up private prisons, private security guards, etc. What commie Euro nation are you from?

And the contracts you sign with the private prisons somehow don't save a farking dime and in fact actually costs more then the previous system. The guards get paid minimum wage instead of a living wage. It is what the republicans call a win/win, their friends get rich, the idiots that vote for them get screwed, those that don't vote them get pissed off at them which, in their fevered imaginations, means they are doing the right thing.


THIS, OH SO MUCH, THIS
 
2012-06-07 01:22:40 PM  
To be fair, San Diego's pension plan has been farked up for quite awhile, and something had to be done. I don't know if 401k's were the best answer, but something had to happen. Most people know that this has been the fault of the city council, and the dumbasses who were supposed to be managing the pension fund. Those that don't realize this listen to Roger Hedgecock.
 
2012-06-07 01:23:49 PM  

Wangiss: cmb53208: dave2198: Damn those schoolteachers and firemen. Assholes. Why won't they just accept the pittance we offer them? Hell, they should be volunteering.

Sadly, most firefighters in the U.S. are volunteer. It's a Republican wet dream come true: "Hey you farking chump, run into that burning building, we won't even pay you!! But we'll make sure Snooki gets more money!"

Republicans are supporting Snooki somehow?


Republicans do prefer reality television more than Democrats, so yes.
 
2012-06-07 01:26:44 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


Its just easier to covet something my neighbor has. I can see him and I know I work harder! On the other hand CEOs are some kind of near mythical creatures that I only have glimpses of as they pass me on the highway in their silver/grey or sometimes black chariots.
 
2012-06-07 01:26:49 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


You don't get it, do you? Taxpayers pay for public sector expenditures. To the extent taxpayers think public sector employees are overpaid, taxpayers may vote against public sector employees' interests, regardless of the taxpayers own employment situation.

I'm not arguing either side of the issue, but you're not looking at the issue correctly.
 
2012-06-07 01:26:54 PM  

LectertheChef: Wangiss: cmb53208: dave2198: Damn those schoolteachers and firemen. Assholes. Why won't they just accept the pittance we offer them? Hell, they should be volunteering.

Sadly, most firefighters in the U.S. are volunteer. It's a Republican wet dream come true: "Hey you farking chump, run into that burning building, we won't even pay you!! But we'll make sure Snooki gets more money!"

Republicans are supporting Snooki somehow?

Republicans do prefer reality television more than Democrats, so yes.


Didn't know that. Awesome.

/Repubretort: "Cause Democrats aren't living in realty huhhuh!"
 
2012-06-07 01:27:19 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


this
 
2012-06-07 01:27:54 PM  

fracto73: DarwiOdrade: [thinkprogress.org image 460x329]
Unions have been getting their asses kicked for a while now, just like the middle class. Maybe the pace is speeding up as anti-union corporate power increases, but this is nothing new.

Each set of numbers having an independant y-axis invalidates the usefulness of the chart. Using that method you could take any 2 decreasing numbers and align them to make a similar point.


No it doesn't - correlation doesn't have to be one-to-one to be valid.
 
2012-06-07 01:28:04 PM  

cmb53208: dave2198: Damn those schoolteachers and firemen. Assholes. Why won't they just accept the pittance we offer them? Hell, they should be volunteering.

Sadly, most firefighters in the U.S. are volunteer. It's a Republican wet dream come true: "Hey you farking chump, run into that burning building, we won't even pay you!! But we'll make sure Snooki gets more money!"


Most arson is actually done by volunteer fireman, so they quite enjoy it.
 
2012-06-07 01:28:21 PM  

Needlessly Complicated: The first sentence of the article was: "Voters in San Diego and San Jose, the 8th and tenth biggest municipalities in the United States, decisively voted to redistribute income from the rich (public employees) to the middle class taxpayers who earn far less on average."

WTF?

Is this an attempt at deflection, brain-breaking cognitive dissonance, or just colossal dickery?


My husband and I are both public employees. I'll have to call him and let him know that we're rich. It's news to me! Even though I make 30% less than what one of my friends in private industry makes despite the fact we do similar jobs and I have more education. But hey, if American Thinker says I'm rich then it must be true!

I'm voting colossal dickery.

/Gets all pissed when people act as though public employees aren't taxpayers too.
 
2012-06-07 01:29:16 PM  

LectertheChef: Most people know that this has been the fault of the city council, and the dumbasses who were supposed to be managing the pension fund.


Lets not forget to also include the politicians that signed off on compensation and pension plans that they could not afford.
 
2012-06-07 01:29:46 PM  
You guys are missing the point here. The San Jose vote wasn't because people hate unions, are anti-labor, etc. It was they are tired of funding lavish pension plans. That's all.

You want a $200k a year retirement after 20 years of working? Don't get upset when the taxpayers don't want to pay for it.
 
2012-06-07 01:30:36 PM  
Was reading this morning that MN and MI are going to be more aggressive against unions after the recall fail.

"But Walker's victory Tuesday is encouraging Republicans in other states to push ahead with their own efforts to curtail unions' power and chop away at the benefits gained for their members over the years.

GOP lawmakers in states such as Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri and New Hampshire are likely to push harder for right-to-work legislation or other measures that restrict automatic union dues collection."
 
2012-06-07 01:30:58 PM  

DarwiOdrade: fracto73: DarwiOdrade: [thinkprogress.org image 460x329]
Unions have been getting their asses kicked for a while now, just like the middle class. Maybe the pace is speeding up as anti-union corporate power increases, but this is nothing new.

Each set of numbers having an independant y-axis invalidates the usefulness of the chart. Using that method you could take any 2 decreasing numbers and align them to make a similar point.

No it doesn't - correlation doesn't have to be one-to-one to be valid.


I wonder if public perception of the value of union membership has decreased because unions didn't keep wages up like they promised.

Naw, correlation probably equals causation after all.
 
2012-06-07 01:31:00 PM  
Bound and determined to do this all over again, eh? Do it. Vote yourselves into serfdom. It's what America deserves.

museum.nist.gov
 
2012-06-07 01:31:25 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.

Corporate brainwashing is complete.


all of that money comes from taxes that you and I and others pay in; people are tired of seeing others living off of their hard earned income.
 
2012-06-07 01:32:25 PM  

LectertheChef: To be fair, San Diego's pension plan has been farked up for quite awhile, and something had to be done. I don't know if 401k's were the best answer, but something had to happen. Most people know that this has been the fault of the city council, and the dumbasses who were supposed to be managing the pension fund. Those that don't realize this listen to Roger Hedgecock.


Agreed.
 
2012-06-07 01:32:39 PM  

Wangiss: DarwiOdrade: fracto73: DarwiOdrade: [thinkprogress.org image 460x329]
Unions have been getting their asses kicked for a while now, just like the middle class. Maybe the pace is speeding up as anti-union corporate power increases, but this is nothing new.

Each set of numbers having an independant y-axis invalidates the usefulness of the chart. Using that method you could take any 2 decreasing numbers and align them to make a similar point.

No it doesn't - correlation doesn't have to be one-to-one to be valid.

I wonder if public perception of the value of union membership has decreased because unions didn't keep wages up like they promised.

Naw, correlation probably equals causation after all.


Nice strawman you got there, especially since I didn't say anything about cause and effect.
 
2012-06-07 01:33:55 PM  
Wish I had known about this. Would have made yesterday's tears of impotent rage all that much sweeter.

Goodfella: Citizen's United is allowing the 0.1% to turn states like Wisconsin and California into Alabama.


You mean a state where industry and manufacturers want to set up business. Sounds like hell.
 
2012-06-07 01:34:16 PM  
I live in Vallejo, CA and am getting a kick out of these replies.

Pensions are unsustainable, economically and politically. I am all for labor negotiating whatever terms they can get with respect to wages, but tying the hands of the body politic for decades into the future is ethically wrong. Public sector union members (yes, this means police and fire safety too) should do a bit of self-reflection and see that the rest of us really don't think its fair that you get a free retirement on our shoulders. Sorry, that's just how it is.
 
2012-06-07 01:34:19 PM  
Cool tag?

fark you, tardmitter.
 
2012-06-07 01:35:14 PM  

DarwiOdrade: Wangiss: DarwiOdrade: fracto73: DarwiOdrade: [thinkprogress.org image 460x329]
Unions have been getting their asses kicked for a while now, just like the middle class. Maybe the pace is speeding up as anti-union corporate power increases, but this is nothing new.

Each set of numbers having an independant y-axis invalidates the usefulness of the chart. Using that method you could take any 2 decreasing numbers and align them to make a similar point.

No it doesn't - correlation doesn't have to be one-to-one to be valid.

I wonder if public perception of the value of union membership has decreased because unions didn't keep wages up like they promised.

Naw, correlation probably equals causation after all.

Nice strawman you got there, especially since I didn't say anything about cause and effect.


Did I say that you said anything about cause and effect? Look really hard. There's a term people use for when others argue against statements that have not been made. You're doing it. You may find that term on the page as well.
 
2012-06-07 01:36:27 PM  

beta_plus: Wish I had known about this. Would have made yesterday's tears of impotent rage all that much sweeter.

Goodfella: Citizen's United is allowing the 0.1% to turn states like Wisconsin and California into Alabama.

You mean a state where industry and manufacturers want to set up business. Sounds like hell.


AL has 5th highest poverty rate in US. Sounds like heaven.
 
2012-06-07 01:36:48 PM  

Kuta: I live in Vallejo, CA and am getting a kick out of these replies.

Pensions are unsustainable, economically and politically. I am all for labor negotiating whatever terms they can get with respect to wages, but tying the hands of the body politic for decades into the future is ethically wrong. Public sector union members (yes, this means police and fire safety too) should do a bit of self-reflection and see that the rest of us really don't think its fair that you get a free retirement on our shoulders. Sorry, that's just how it is.


Do public employees not contribute to their pensions in CA? Public employees in my state pay for their pensions out of their paychecks every month--it's set aside for our retirement. I honestly don't know the answer to this, not trying to snark.
 
2012-06-07 01:36:48 PM  

beta_plus: Wish I had known about this. Would have made yesterday's tears of impotent rage all that much sweeter.

Goodfella: Citizen's United is allowing the 0.1% to turn states like Wisconsin and California into Alabama.

You mean a state where industry and manufacturers want to set up business. Sounds like hell.


Yeah, because California being America's biggest industrial state and the world's 8th largest economy is totally proof that nobody wants to do business there, ever.
 
2012-06-07 01:37:42 PM  

Wangiss: DarwiOdrade: Wangiss: DarwiOdrade: fracto73: DarwiOdrade: [thinkprogress.org image 460x329]
Unions have been getting their asses kicked for a while now, just like the middle class. Maybe the pace is speeding up as anti-union corporate power increases, but this is nothing new.

Each set of numbers having an independant y-axis invalidates the usefulness of the chart. Using that method you could take any 2 decreasing numbers and align them to make a similar point.

No it doesn't - correlation doesn't have to be one-to-one to be valid.

I wonder if public perception of the value of union membership has decreased because unions didn't keep wages up like they promised.

Naw, correlation probably equals causation after all.

Nice strawman you got there, especially since I didn't say anything about cause and effect.

Did I say that you said anything about cause and effect? Look really hard. There's a term people use for when others argue against statements that have not been made. You're doing it. You may find that term on the page as well.


Right - you're just asking questions.
 
2012-06-07 01:38:47 PM  
The long and short of the hows and whys of California's primary:

Voter turnout was abysmal. In some counties as low as 17%.

Guess who bothered to vote.

/only have ourselves to blame, but damnit I voted
 
2012-06-07 01:38:53 PM  

Portia: Kuta: I live in Vallejo, CA and am getting a kick out of these replies.

Pensions are unsustainable, economically and politically. I am all for labor negotiating whatever terms they can get with respect to wages, but tying the hands of the body politic for decades into the future is ethically wrong. Public sector union members (yes, this means police and fire safety too) should do a bit of self-reflection and see that the rest of us really don't think its fair that you get a free retirement on our shoulders. Sorry, that's just how it is.

Do public employees not contribute to their pensions in CA? Public employees in my state pay for their pensions out of their paychecks every month--it's set aside for our retirement. I honestly don't know the answer to this, not trying to snark.


Usually they do, but contributing $1.00 for every $1,000 their pension will pay them doesn't exactly help the situation.

/hyperbole
//close to actual numbers
 
2012-06-07 01:40:32 PM  

DarwiOdrade: fracto73: DarwiOdrade: [thinkprogress.org image 460x329]
Unions have been getting their asses kicked for a while now, just like the middle class. Maybe the pace is speeding up as anti-union corporate power increases, but this is nothing new.

Each set of numbers having an independant y-axis invalidates the usefulness of the chart. Using that method you could take any 2 decreasing numbers and align them to make a similar point.

No it doesn't - correlation doesn't have to be one-to-one to be valid.



Then why fudge the numbers on the chart? Like I said, using this method you could take any 2 declining numbers and make then appear related. So, it makes me think the chart maker is trying to trick people. If the correlation is real, why make the chart like that?
 
2012-06-07 01:40:35 PM  

DarwiOdrade: Wangiss: DarwiOdrade: Wangiss: DarwiOdrade: fracto73: DarwiOdrade: [thinkprogress.org image 460x329]
Unions have been getting their asses kicked for a while now, just like the middle class. Maybe the pace is speeding up as anti-union corporate power increases, but this is nothing new.

Each set of numbers having an independant y-axis invalidates the usefulness of the chart. Using that method you could take any 2 decreasing numbers and align them to make a similar point.

No it doesn't - correlation doesn't have to be one-to-one to be valid.

I wonder if public perception of the value of union membership has decreased because unions didn't keep wages up like they promised.

Naw, correlation probably equals causation after all.

Nice strawman you got there, especially since I didn't say anything about cause and effect.

Did I say that you said anything about cause and effect? Look really hard. There's a term people use for when others argue against statements that have not been made. You're doing it. You may find that term on the page as well.

Right - you're just asking questions.


Yes.
 
2012-06-07 01:41:27 PM  

beta_plus: Wish I had known about this. Would have made yesterday's tears of impotent rage all that much sweeter.

Goodfella: Citizen's United is allowing the 0.1% to turn states like Wisconsin and California into Alabama.

You mean a state where industry and manufacturers want to set up business. Sounds like hell.


Industry and manufacturers also want to set up businesses in Third World hell holes. So yes, it is hell for the workers.
 
2012-06-07 01:43:20 PM  

Wangiss: Soviet Boris finds a genie bottle and is granted a wish: "I wish Ivan's goat would die!"


"The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn't even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it." ~Davis X. Machina
 
2012-06-07 01:45:46 PM  

Portia: Do public employees not contribute to their pensions in CA? Public employees in my state pay for their pensions out of their paychecks every month--it's set aside for our retirement. I honestly don't know the answer to this, not trying to snark.


Yes, public employees do set aside part of their paychecks every month for pensions. However, defined benefit plans routinely need subsidies because the amounts being put into the funds by those employees are not enough to cover the benefits. Corporate pension plans were gutted in the 70s and 80s as business consolidated. Government pension plans, too often "unfunded liabilities", just took an extra generation to get the axe too as a new wave of the population saw that people with job security in government also got retirement security as well.

Yea, it kind of sucks that the middle class is turning on itself when the rich have free rein. We haven't seen any financial reform packages or substantial regulation of the derivatives market since the start of the recession.But this one thing--defined benefit plans, aka pensions--is truly a thing of the past.
 
2012-06-07 01:46:46 PM  
I think something is wrong with me. I'm a Democrat and former union member myself [albeit the whitest white collar union you've ever seen] and I'm OK with this. These are government employees paid for with tax-payer dollars and at some point, especially in a state like California, there has to be a balance between government spending and the pensions paid to employees. The people who voted against it are probably similar to the union workers -- they're middle class people who see their taxes increasing while living paycheck to paycheck despite having a college degree and a good job. If you have to choose between a government worker getting a cushy pension or having a little more money in your pockets or the potholes in your street fixed, what are you going to choose? It sucks, but as more baby boomers retire and suck off government pensions, more of these government programs will see serious cuts -- and that's not even including social security.
 
2012-06-07 01:47:38 PM  

sabreWulf07: Wangiss: Soviet Boris finds a genie bottle and is granted a wish: "I wish Ivan's goat would die!"

"The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn't even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it." ~Davis X. Machina


That's one heck of a handle. I wonder what pitch comes out after the 32nd round of 762.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-06-07 01:49:04 PM  
I keep trying to make a joke about how the Gilded Age sounds better than it is, but I can't brain this morning.
 
2012-06-07 01:50:03 PM  

Stile4aly: I keep trying to make a joke about how the Gilded Age sounds better than it is, but I can't brain this morning.


See gilded babies thread.
 
2012-06-07 01:50:52 PM  
Someone should tell people that it takes two to sign a contract, and that maybe they should consider that when they elect people to represent their interests when negotiating these contracts.

I guess it's easier to get mad at the people who are apparently just so damned good at negotiation that mayors and county executives are powerless to present a counteroffer.
 
2012-06-07 01:53:36 PM  

BeesNuts: Someone should tell people that it takes two to sign a contract, and that maybe they should consider that when they elect people to represent their interests when negotiating these contracts.

I guess it's easier to get mad at the people who are apparently just so damned good at negotiation that mayors and county executives are powerless to present a counteroffer.


And when counteroffers are presented, they are accused of wanting to bust up unions and destroy the middle class. No win situation.
 
2012-06-07 01:53:50 PM  

killershark: I think something is wrong with me. I'm a Democrat and former union member myself [albeit the whitest white collar union you've ever seen] and I'm OK with this. These are government employees paid for with tax-payer dollars and at some point, especially in a state like California, there has to be a balance between government spending and the pensions paid to employees. The people who voted against it are probably similar to the union workers -- they're middle class people who see their taxes increasing while living paycheck to paycheck despite having a college degree and a good job. If you have to choose between a government worker getting a cushy pension or having a little more money in your pockets or the potholes in your street fixed, what are you going to choose? It sucks, but as more baby boomers retire and suck off government pensions, more of these government programs will see serious cuts -- and that's not even including social security.


Californians have always had an issue with the + and - concept. They want a lot of things +'s but continually vote not to pay for them -'s so the system is badly strained and likely to fail under its own weight at some point.
 
2012-06-07 01:54:11 PM  

BeesNuts: I guess it's easier to get mad at the people who are apparently just so damned good at negotiation that mayors and county executives are powerless to present a counteroffer.


The same tards blame unions for the problems in the auto industry, not the management that agreed to their demands and created the auto lineup and marketing strategy.
 
2012-06-07 01:54:33 PM  

killershark: If you have to choose between a government worker getting a cushy pension or having a little more money in your pockets or the potholes in your street fixed, what are you going to choose? It sucks, but as more baby boomers retire and suck off government pensions, more of these government programs will see serious cuts -- and that's not even including social security.


I would choose the option that fixes problems in both areas: increase taxes on the rich to an appropriate level for modern society.
 
2012-06-07 01:54:51 PM  

Lando Lincoln: kronicfeld: kingoomieiii: Did you just take the conclusion of an American Thinker article and respond "Well, duh"? Shame on you.

You're just being negative because American Thinker said something anti-liberal.

Let me know when they say something pro-liberal. That's the day I stop being one.


That's the day I throw my drugs away.
 
2012-06-07 01:56:22 PM  

Portia: Kuta: I live in Vallejo, CA and am getting a kick out of these replies.

Pensions are unsustainable, economically and politically. I am all for labor negotiating whatever terms they can get with respect to wages, but tying the hands of the body politic for decades into the future is ethically wrong. Public sector union members (yes, this means police and fire safety too) should do a bit of self-reflection and see that the rest of us really don't think its fair that you get a free retirement on our shoulders. Sorry, that's just how it is.

Do public employees not contribute to their pensions in CA? Public employees in my state pay for their pensions out of their paychecks every month--it's set aside for our retirement. I honestly don't know the answer to this, not trying to snark.


Public sector employee here. My state takes 9% of my salary and puts it into my retirement plan whether I want them to or not; they are supposed to provide matching funds but they haven't done that in over a decade. It's more like half that, and now the GOP-led legislature wants to cut their contribution even further.
 
2012-06-07 01:58:43 PM  

LarryDan43: cmb53208: dave2198: Damn those schoolteachers and firemen. Assholes. Why won't they just accept the pittance we offer them? Hell, they should be volunteering.

Sadly, most firefighters in the U.S. are volunteer. It's a Republican wet dream come true: "Hey you farking chump, run into that burning building, we won't even pay you!! But we'll make sure Snooki gets more money!"

Most arson is actually done by volunteer fireman, so they quite enjoy it.


The penny dropped shortly after "Charcoal Tuesday."

I'm a unionized public servant. Every few years, we negotiate our contract with management who, believe me, are a) also taxpayers and b) not exactly rolling around on giant piles of money. This is like any other employer-employee interaction. You don't get to decide what's in my contract any more than you get to decide the price of government defence contracts - other than at the polls, of course. I don't understand why this is outrageous.

I swear to god, the next thing will be trying to block all civil servants from paying for abortions because they'd be indirectly using "taxpayers' money."
 
2012-06-07 01:59:16 PM  

monoski: Californians have always had an issue with the + and - concept. They want a lot of things +'s but continually vote not to pay for them -'s so the system is badly strained and likely to fail under its own weight at some point.


Not true. Prior to Prop 13 and the rise of Howard Jarvis, California DID pay for all the +'s. The "Taxpayer Revolt" threw everything out of whack. It's taken 35 years for things to get to this point because that's how long the government could hold off the inevitable.
 
2012-06-07 01:59:52 PM  

Bill_Wick's_Friend: cman: WTF is wrong with me today?

Same thing that's wrong with you most days.

Your knee-jerk need to declare "Obama bad! Unions bad! Both sides wrong so vote Republican!" overrides your brain. Your car is in "drive" before the keys are in the ignition.


1. I dont always shiat all over Obama
2. I dont usually shiat on unions. I used the incorrect word. I meant to say "against".
3. fark the GOP. fark that flip-flopping big government asshole Romney.
 
2012-06-07 02:00:51 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


Over 20% of the city budget for pensions, and growing. Please justify closing libraries so someone can retire at age 50. Are you really this blindly partisan?
 
2012-06-07 02:02:41 PM  

BeesNuts: Someone should tell people that it takes two to sign a contract, and that maybe they should consider that when they elect people to represent their interests when negotiating these contracts.

I guess it's easier to get mad at the people who are apparently just so damned good at negotiation that mayors and county executives are powerless to present a counteroffer.


Then watch the same people turn around in Equal Pay threads and biatch about how great their skillz are and how it's really up to you to ensure you are paid what you deserve.
 
2012-06-07 02:03:32 PM  

DarwiOdrade: fracto73: DarwiOdrade: [thinkprogress.org image 460x329]
Unions have been getting their asses kicked for a while now, just like the middle class. Maybe the pace is speeding up as anti-union corporate power increases, but this is nothing new.

Each set of numbers having an independant y-axis invalidates the usefulness of the chart. Using that method you could take any 2 decreasing numbers and align them to make a similar point.

No it doesn't - correlation doesn't have to be one-to-one to be valid.


Correlation also doesnt mean a causal relationship.
 
2012-06-07 02:04:45 PM  

vpb: Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.

That's kind of typical. They also try to devalue science and education because they are ignorant rather than learn. They want to stop immigration rather than acquire skills so they don't have to compete for unskilled jobs.

Generally they are people who want to pull others down to their level rather than improve themselves.


Kinda like taxing the rich more?
 
2012-06-07 02:07:18 PM  

fat boy: vpb: Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.

That's kind of typical. They also try to devalue science and education because they are ignorant rather than learn. They want to stop immigration rather than acquire skills so they don't have to compete for unskilled jobs.

Generally they are people who want to pull others down to their level rather than improve themselves.

Kinda like taxing the rich more?


Because increasing tax rates on millionaires by three percent will make the guy have to sell all of his cars and rent a shiatty apartment next to mine.

/nice grasp
 
2012-06-07 02:08:23 PM  
The public at large voted against something public sector employees wanted. How are private corporations involved?
 
2012-06-07 02:08:31 PM  

Wangiss: DarwiOdrade: Wangiss: DarwiOdrade: fracto73: DarwiOdrade: [thinkprogress.org image 460x329]
Unions have been getting their asses kicked for a while now, just like the middle class. Maybe the pace is speeding up as anti-union corporate power increases, but this is nothing new.

Each set of numbers having an independant y-axis invalidates the usefulness of the chart. Using that method you could take any 2 decreasing numbers and align them to make a similar point.

No it doesn't - correlation doesn't have to be one-to-one to be valid.

I wonder if public perception of the value of union membership has decreased because unions didn't keep wages up like they promised.

Naw, correlation probably equals causation after all.

Nice strawman you got there, especially since I didn't say anything about cause and effect.

Did I say that you said anything about cause and effect? Look really hard. There's a term people use for when others argue against statements that have not been made. You're doing it. You may find that term on the page as well.


This holier-than-thou sage character is already old and I'm only familiar with it in this one specific thread... jesus, who taught you rhetoric? Neil Boortz?
 
2012-06-07 02:11:16 PM  

monoski: killershark: I think something is wrong with me. I'm a Democrat and former union member myself [albeit the whitest white collar union you've ever seen] and I'm OK with this. These are government employees paid for with tax-payer dollars and at some point, especially in a state like California, there has to be a balance between government spending and the pensions paid to employees. The people who voted against it are probably similar to the union workers -- they're middle class people who see their taxes increasing while living paycheck to paycheck despite having a college degree and a good job. If you have to choose between a government worker getting a cushy pension or having a little more money in your pockets or the potholes in your street fixed, what are you going to choose? It sucks, but as more baby boomers retire and suck off government pensions, more of these government programs will see serious cuts -- and that's not even including social security.

Californians have always had an issue with the + and - concept. They want a lot of things +'s but continually vote not to pay for them -'s so the system is badly strained and likely to fail under its own weight at some point.


That's actually not quite accurate. Californians vote to pay for shiat, but then the Republicans in the legislature refuse to raise taxes to pay for said shiat. In CA, the legislature must have a 67% supermajority to pass a budget, which is why practically every year there's a budget crisis. CA is Blue, but it's not 67% Blue.
 
2012-06-07 02:12:37 PM  
I helped torch SB 5 so I'm really getting a kick out of this thread.
 
2012-06-07 02:14:33 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


I think people (ok, me) are upset that PUBLIC sector unions get not just "better" pensions, but outrageous pensions that are making states go bankrupt. When a cop can call in sick for his regular shift, but then show up for his overtime shift to make more money, that's complete and utter crap. When a firefighter makes more money after retirement than he does while on the job, that's hurting people, and ultimately will lead to worse public services for those of us who pay taxes so we can have firefighters who are actually working. I've got no problem with a union that can successfully negotiate or even hold hostage a corporation for better money or benefits, but I do have a big problem with people who make their money off the government teet being able to do it. I guess if I were a cop or firefighter or teacher or city secretary, I'd rather see a slightly lower wage and higher benefits than risk being out of a job completely. When the states and cities go broke, who do they think is going to pay them?
 
2012-06-07 02:14:36 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: BeesNuts: Someone should tell people that it takes two to sign a contract, and that maybe they should consider that when they elect people to represent their interests when negotiating these contracts.

I guess it's easier to get mad at the people who are apparently just so damned good at negotiation that mayors and county executives are powerless to present a counteroffer.

And when counteroffers are presented, they are accused of wanting to bust up unions and destroy the middle class. No win situation.


Maybe cause they present those counter offers, not to the unions, but to the press. And because, particularly in the case of wisconsin teachers, the unions have agreed to pay freezes, pay cuts, pension reduction, increased health care contribution, etc and were STILL called greedy leeches.

You make it sound like Walker went up to some jackbooted, bespectacled, suit-demon with a ragged piece of paper in his hand that showed the states finances in shambles, and respectfully asked if they could maybe, possibly consider not robbing the people of the state, and the union boss laughed in his face, walked up to the nearest non-union citizen and kicked them in the balls before knocking some kids ice cream cone out of his hand.

The power dynamic is important. The audience of these negotiations is important. Negotiating in good faith is important. Otherwise you're not so much negotiating as ... yeah... trying to beat up the unions for partisan brownie points.

You know this. I know you know this because you and I have had this exact conversation at least twice in the past.
 
2012-06-07 02:14:54 PM  

Epoch_Zero: killershark: If you have to choose between a government worker getting a cushy pension or having a little more money in your pockets or the potholes in your street fixed, what are you going to choose? It sucks, but as more baby boomers retire and suck off government pensions, more of these government programs will see serious cuts -- and that's not even including social security.

I would choose the option that fixes problems in both areas: increase taxes on the rich to an appropriate level for modern society.


I totally agree with that. I may be liberal but I consider myself fiscally conservative. But who in the government anymore is fiscally conservative? Even the Tea Partyers won't stand up to Republicans and tell them to cut defense spending, which is a huge chunk of our budget.

And in California, it doesn't take much to get an amendment on the ballot and get it passed. You want to raise taxes on the wealthy, get some signatures and hope 50% of the people vote for it, but good luck with that. This is also the state that voted down a $1 tax on cigarettes to pay for things like cancer research and public health issues related to cancer illnesses because of all the ads paid for by Philip Morris and RJ Reynolds.
 
2012-06-07 02:16:08 PM  

sabreWulf07: Bound and determined to do this all over again, eh? Do it. Vote yourselves into serfdom. It's what America deserves.

museum.nist.gov


I'm worried America will come to resemble a different book:

i43.tower.com
 
2012-06-07 02:17:03 PM  

FilmBELOH20: pensions that are making states go bankrupt.


No.
 
2012-06-07 02:18:04 PM  

themindiswatching: Let's just ban unions already and get it over with. I'm sure a future President Romney can use a strike as a terrorist act and put all of them on the State Department's terrorist list or something.



Breaking news, ANOTHER TEAMSTER has crashed into the south tower.
 
2012-06-07 02:20:24 PM  
I'll bet if California were shaped more like a fist, the unions would have won.
 
2012-06-07 02:21:16 PM  

Parthenogenetic: I'm worried America will come to resemble a different book:


Sweet! Those Eloi chicks are hot!
 
2012-06-07 02:22:56 PM  

LectertheChef: beta_plus: Wish I had known about this. Would have made yesterday's tears of impotent rage all that much sweeter.

Goodfella: Citizen's United is allowing the 0.1% to turn states like Wisconsin and California into Alabama.

You mean a state where industry and manufacturers want to set up business. Sounds like hell.

Yeah, because California being America's biggest industrial state and the world's 8th largest economy is totally proof that nobody wants to do business there, ever.


Funny, it used to be the 7th largest economy in the world. Looks like people don't like doing business there like they used to.
 
2012-06-07 02:24:22 PM  

DarwiOdrade: Bill_Wick's_Friend: cman: WTF is wrong with me today?

Same thing that's wrong with you most days.

Your knee-jerk need to declare "Obama bad! Unions bad! Both sides wrong so vote Republican!" overrides your brain. Your car is in "drive" before the keys are in the ignition.

But he's totally not a conservative, and don't you dare say he is!


Yes, I am the rightest of the right, a proud Republican donor! My great Republican ideology of marriage equality, transgender equality (changing ones birth certificate to indicate their correct gender), freedom to burn the American flag, ensuring that church and state stay separate, ending the war on drugs, the legalization of all drugs, ensuring a proper treatment for the GITMO detainees (who should have legal representation), anti-racism and support for the 1964 civil rights voting act, and the big one, not worshiping with all of my heart the armed forces. Very Republican, aint i?
 
2012-06-07 02:27:12 PM  

cman: DarwiOdrade: Bill_Wick's_Friend: cman: WTF is wrong with me today?

Same thing that's wrong with you most days.

Your knee-jerk need to declare "Obama bad! Unions bad! Both sides wrong so vote Republican!" overrides your brain. Your car is in "drive" before the keys are in the ignition.

But he's totally not a conservative, and don't you dare say he is!

Yes, I am the rightest of the right, a proud Republican donor! My great Republican ideology of marriage equality, transgender equality (changing ones birth certificate to indicate their correct gender), freedom to burn the American flag, ensuring that church and state stay separate, ending the war on drugs, the legalization of all drugs, ensuring a proper treatment for the GITMO detainees (who should have legal representation), anti-racism and support for the 1964 civil rights voting act, and the big one, not worshiping with all of my heart the armed forces. Very Republican, aint i?


Oh, and to top it all off, I supported the recall against Walker, and I wanted the Democrat nominee to take it home. I was very active in those threads and I gave my reasons why I supported it. But, to save you the trouble, I will sum it up: I wanted Walker out for his hyper-partisanship and for denying teachers the right to have collective bargaining as a right. I wanted the GOP to be humbled (maybe they would have stopped much of their bullshiat if they were)

But of course, I am just one of those right-winged Republican bigots.
 
2012-06-07 02:27:18 PM  
CA is a great example of unions gone wrong....

The most egregiously coddled of the state's favored constituencies are California's public labor unions. This is partly the result of their bloated ranks: The percentage of unionized public employees in California is 20% higher than the national average. Even more important, though, is the unions' outsized influence. Awarded collective bargaining rights with nearly every sector of government during the 1960s and '70s, the unions subsequently exploded into a political force to be reckoned with and a primary cause of California's fiscal hemophilia.A far less visible but equally nefarious force is the California Correctional Peace Officers Association, the state's prison-guard union. With 33,000 members who wield extraordinary political clout, the Golden State's prison guards are also the best paid in the nation (many earn more than $100,000 a year). Owing to their tremendous financial support for Gray Davis, the prison guards managed in 2002 to secure the then-governor's approval of a contract that gave them a whopping 37% raise and increased their already considerable retirement benefits. As a result, California's prison guards have become the state's largest personnel expense, creating a situation in which the government's cost to house each prisoner is an astounding $45,000 per year.

But no matter how egregious their misconduct, California's public-school teachers can always skirt the consequences. With 340,000 members statewide, the California Teachers' Association is perhaps the most powerful interest group in state politics. In 2005, for instance, the organization spent nearly $60 million to defeat ballot measures aimed at bringing more accountability to California schools. And when budget agreements get hashed out in meetings of the state's notorious "big five" (the governor and the four legislative party leaders), the CTA is treated like an unnamed sixth party to the talks. It's no wonder, then, that despite having some of America's lowest-performing schools, California's teachers are the highest paid in the nation

And there is no way to understand California's fiscal catastrophe without first acknowledging the key role that union benefits have played. In 1999, the state legislature passed a financially reckless plan allowing the state's public-safety workers to retire with a pension equal to 90% of their salaries if they had served at least 30 years. This move led to a spate of "pension spiking," wherein public employees received dramatic pay increases in their last few years of service in order to feather their nests in retirement. With unused sick leave and vacation time also included in the benefit calculus, the state's obligations have multiplied at a dizzying rate. As a result, more than 5,000 former state employees now enjoy taxpayer-supported retirement packages of more than $100,000 per year.


Link
 
2012-06-07 02:27:21 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


THIS!
So.
Much.
THIS
 
2012-06-07 02:28:51 PM  

Kuta: monoski: Californians have always had an issue with the + and - concept. They want a lot of things +'s but continually vote not to pay for them -'s so the system is badly strained and likely to fail under its own weight at some point.

Not true. Prior to Prop 13 and the rise of Howard Jarvis, California DID pay for all the +'s. The "Taxpayer Revolt" threw everything out of whack. It's taken 35 years for things to get to this point because that's how long the government could hold off the inevitable.


Pretty much this.

Prop 13. I will always remember 1979 as the year my school band had to start selling candy
 
2012-06-07 02:30:05 PM  
The middle class tax rate should be doubled and the rich should pay no taxes. They do enough for society and we owe them as they provide jobs for us.
 
2012-06-07 02:49:03 PM  

Epoch_Zero: Parthenogenetic: I'm worried America will come to resemble a different book:

Sweet! Those Eloi chicks are hot!


4.bp.blogspot.com

Where da white women at?!
 
2012-06-07 02:55:56 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


I'm self-employed, so who am I going to organize against and make demands of, myself? Businesses in California are treated as barely-tolerated pariahs when they aren't being ATMs for the tax collectors. If I bust my ass and have to get by with a 401(k) and not inflation-adjusted lifetime health care and a 90% pension at 55, then so can a bunch of cubicle-dwelling barnacles encrusting the undercarriage of city and state government.
 
2012-06-07 02:56:51 PM  
A problem unique to public unions is collusion between politicians and the unions at the expense of everyone else. It doesn't happen everywhere, but when it does you end up with Montgomery County, MD. This is a county that so over-promised benefits to the teachers unions that 90 percent of their education spending goes towards personnel. The governor of the state passed the responsibility of funding teacher's pensions to individual counties because some counties would not stop promising benefits they couldn't afford. Even after raising taxes (again) this year, they still don't have enough money to cover the spread.

The reason all of this happened is because the unions paid off politicians to get them elected, the politicians turned around and gave the unions more money who in turn gave more money back to the politicians.

There is a difference between public and private-sector unions, and voters are aware of it. They aren't voting against the union as much as they are voting against the system that encourages their government to spend money on a very small group of taxpayers at the expense of everyone else. Yes, public union members are taxpayers, but that doesn't mean their issues are a higher priority than everyone else's. In bad situations like Maryland, even the Democrats are starting to realize that they have created a problem they can't possibly solve.
 
2012-06-07 02:59:38 PM  

jjorsett: I'm self-employed, so who am I going to organize against and make demands of, myself? Businesses in California are treated as barely-tolerated pariahs when they aren't being ATMs for the tax collectors. If I bust my ass and have to get by with a 401(k) and not inflation-adjusted lifetime health care and a 90% pension at 55, then so can a bunch of cubicle-dwelling barnacles encrusting the undercarriage of city and state government.


I like your point. Since you don't have to argue with anyone to get the benefits you deserve, neither should a public worker. You got yours, so fark everybody else.

/haha, no really, you're a terrible person
 
2012-06-07 02:59:52 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


Now think about the fact that the people in favor of gutting unions for this reason are the same ones that scream "politics of envy" when arguing against raising taxes on the rich one iota.
 
2012-06-07 03:06:41 PM  

sinisterben: BeesNuts: Someone should tell people that it takes two to sign a contract, and that maybe they should consider that when they elect people to represent their interests when negotiating these contracts.

I guess it's easier to get mad at the people who are apparently just so damned good at negotiation that mayors and county executives are powerless to present a counteroffer.

Then watch the same people turn around in Equal Pay threads and biatch about how great their skillz are and how it's really up to you to ensure you are paid what you deserve.


Should I not have done that? Was that bad?
 
2012-06-07 03:07:06 PM  

Lsherm: but when it does you end up with Montgomery County, MD.


You're linking to an opinion piece. I assume you're doing this to support your point. You're doing it wrong.

Lsherm: The reason all of this happened is because the unions paid off politicians to get them elected,


You mean, they donated?!? HOLY farkING ASSCRACKERS - CALL THE FBI!!

Lsherm: the politicians turned around and gave the unions more money


That seems like a terrible way to profit from corruption. Giving all of your money away, and the like. (Psst, it's illegal for politicians to give money to those who have contributed to their campaigns)

Lsherm: They aren't voting against the union as much as they are voting against the system that encourages their government to spend money on a very small group of taxpayers at the expense of everyone else


You mean like when they fund the military?

Lsherm: Yes, public union members are taxpayers, but that doesn't mean their issues are a higher priority than everyone else's.


No, but this is an issue specifically about public labor unions, so.... wait, what was your point?
 
2012-06-07 03:10:07 PM  

derpdeederp: DarwiOdrade: fracto73: DarwiOdrade: [thinkprogress.org image 460x329]
Unions have been getting their asses kicked for a while now, just like the middle class. Maybe the pace is speeding up as anti-union corporate power increases, but this is nothing new.

Each set of numbers having an independant y-axis invalidates the usefulness of the chart. Using that method you could take any 2 decreasing numbers and align them to make a similar point.

No it doesn't - correlation doesn't have to be one-to-one to be valid.

Correlation also doesnt mean a causal relationship.


Hi I'm looking for a causal relatiuonship with an esablished man. I'm 5'7", I like to keep house and I ncan cook Italian. I have never been married, but I think that's the way it shoud be, so if our relationship turns into something more, I just though you shoould know ahead of time.. If anyonwe is interested they can contact me at eip[at]fark.com
 
2012-06-07 03:14:37 PM  

BeesNuts: Wangiss: DarwiOdrade: Wangiss: DarwiOdrade: fracto73: DarwiOdrade: [thinkprogress.org image 460x329]
Unions have been getting their asses kicked for a while now, just like the middle class. Maybe the pace is speeding up as anti-union corporate power increases, but this is nothing new.

Each set of numbers having an independant y-axis invalidates the usefulness of the chart. Using that method you could take any 2 decreasing numbers and align them to make a similar point.

No it doesn't - correlation doesn't have to be one-to-one to be valid.

I wonder if public perception of the value of union membership has decreased because unions didn't keep wages up like they promised.

Naw, correlation probably equals causation after all.

Nice strawman you got there, especially since I didn't say anything about cause and effect.

Did I say that you said anything about cause and effect? Look really hard. There's a term people use for when others argue against statements that have not been made. You're doing it. You may find that term on the page as well.

This holier-than-thou sage character is already old and I'm only familiar with it in this one specific thread... jesus, who taught you rhetoric? Neil Boortz?


Unfortunately, I couldn't afford that series and had to go with the knock-off by Beil Noortz, which I can only assume was a Chinese guy's nomnomnom de plume. I'm like, do we have to outsource EVERYTHING?!

Actually, I was replying to a statement you made wherein you neglected to explicate your position, with a statement wherein I also refused to explicate my position. We can start over, but if you want to know what I think, you'll have to tell us what you think, rather than posting a graph of what some numbers think.
 
2012-06-07 03:14:42 PM  

Epoch_Zero: (Psst, it's illegal for politicians to give money to those who have contributed to their campaigns)


HA_HA_HA,_OH_WOW.jpg
 
2012-06-07 03:17:55 PM  

FilmBELOH20: Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.

I think people (ok, me) are upset that PUBLIC sector unions get not just "better" pensions, but outrageous pensions that are making states go bankrupt. When a cop can call in sick for his regular shift, but then show up for his overtime shift to make more money, that's complete and utter crap. When a firefighter makes more money after retirement than he does while on the job, that's hurting people, and ultimately will lead to worse public services for those of us who pay taxes so we can have firefighters who are actually working. I've got no problem with a union that can successfully negotiate or even hold hostage a corporation for better money or benefits, but I do have a big problem with people who make their money off the government teet being able to do it. I guess if I were a cop or firefighter or teacher or city secretary, I'd rather see a slightly lower wage and higher benefits than risk being out of a job completely. When the states and cities go broke, who do they think is going to pay them?


This one's settled: The federal government. I LOVE my city, county, and state. They provide completely amazing services. (I'm even fortunate enough to be in a good school district.) But what I get from the Fed they could give for less than they do. Seriously, guys? Iraq?
 
MFL
2012-06-07 03:22:00 PM  
Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


This OMG this!!!!

We should raise the minumum wage to $100 an hour!!! We're Americans for shiatsake! We can do anything!!
 
2012-06-07 03:27:26 PM  

BeesNuts: Someone should tell people that it takes two to sign a contract, and that maybe they should consider that when they elect people to represent their interests when negotiating these contracts.

I guess it's easier to get mad at the people who are apparently just so damned good at negotiation that mayors and county executives are powerless to present a counteroffer.


this
 
2012-06-07 03:29:30 PM  
You know what's pathetic? A representative for a state can get a pension and free healthcare for life for just 2 years of work but expecting public employees like firefighters and cops who put their lives on the line every day for 25-30 years can go fark themselves.

America is sick
 
2012-06-07 03:31:15 PM  

Guidette Frankentits: You know what's pathetic? A representative for a state can get a pension and free healthcare for life for just 2 years of work but expecting public employees like firefighters and cops who put their lives on the line every day for 25-30 years can go fark themselves.

America is sick


Okay, everybody... I don't know, so I'm asking: Is there partial pension in CA, or is it all or nothing?
 
2012-06-07 03:35:44 PM  

Wangiss: Okay, everybody... I don't know, so I'm asking: Is there partial pension in CA, or is it all or nothing?


Here
 
2012-06-07 03:42:35 PM  

Guidette Frankentits: Wangiss: Okay, everybody... I don't know, so I'm asking: Is there partial pension in CA, or is it all or nothing?

Here


Oh, cools. CalPERS exists. Thanks, Guidette!
 
2012-06-07 03:43:31 PM  
Here's another thing, you don't pay people a good pension they're gonna have to stay in the service longer and incur more job related injuries. Then the stupid tea bagging assholes wonder why there are so many people on disability. Gee, I wonder WHY fark stick??!?

Some public employees may have to get a job after retiring. That sucks up all the jobs for teens and young people. Then you supposed bootstrappy "Fark you I got mine" piece of shiats wonder why kids don't get jobs. Gee, I wonder WHY cock suckers?!?!

See what happens when you fark with things?
 
2012-06-07 03:49:28 PM  

Guidette Frankentits: Here's another thing, you don't pay people a good pension they're gonna have to stay in the service longer and incur more job related injuries. Then the stupid tea bagging assholes wonder why there are so many people on disability. Gee, I wonder WHY fark stick??!?

Some public employees may have to get a job after retiring. That sucks up all the jobs for teens and young people. Then you supposed bootstrappy "Fark you I got mine" piece of shiats wonder why kids don't get jobs. Gee, I wonder WHY cock suckers?!?!

See what happens when you fark with things?


Do you mean this for desk jockeys as well?
 
2012-06-07 03:59:49 PM  

cman: But of course, I am just one of those right-winged Republican bigots.


I said you were a conservative, not a Republican. Republicans haven't been conservative for years.
 
MFL
2012-06-07 04:05:52 PM  
xalres
Now think about the fact that the people in favor of gutting unions for this reason are the same ones that scream "politics of envy" when arguing against raising taxes on the rich one iota

Unions can play the victim all day long, but this working class hero crap doesn't stick too well when the people that are paying for them to retire at 55 with full benefits and a generous pension could only imagine having that luxury themselves.

In a free economy the private sector is higher on the economic food chain than the public sector. When that truth becomes reversed, you get whats going on in Greece and Spain right now.
 
2012-06-07 04:06:35 PM  
wheres that chart that shows that govenment pay was supposed to keep up with private pay because private pay was just skyrocketing when the middle class was growing, its just that private pay stagnated and fell while government pay continued the trend... is it that government pay should be lowered or that private workers are just not moving....
 
2012-06-07 04:15:06 PM  

vernonFL: California VOTERS are the idiots. What did they think would happen when they decided to throw everyone in prison with a "3 strikes" law? So California has overcrowded prisons now, and has to build more prisons and has to staff those prisons. Also they need more police more judges more lawyers, etc...All public sector workers.


California is an object lesson in why direct democracy doesn't work. They really need to shift back to a more republican system, and we as a country need to learn from their mistakes.
 
2012-06-07 04:21:01 PM  
I have to question why these cities squealing about pension obligations weren't putting away the money they were supposed to for all these years to fund these obligations they willingly and legally contracted for. I mean, it's not like they couldn't do the math, is it?
 
2012-06-07 04:21:54 PM  

killershark: I think something is wrong with me. I'm a Democrat and former union member myself [albeit the whitest white collar union you've ever seen] and I'm OK with this. These are government employees paid for with tax-payer dollars and at some point, especially in a state like California, there has to be a balance between government spending and the pensions paid to employees. The people who voted against it are probably similar to the union workers -- they're middle class people who see their taxes increasing while living paycheck to paycheck despite having a college degree and a good job. If you have to choose between a government worker getting a cushy pension or having a little more money in your pockets or the potholes in your street fixed, what are you going to choose? It sucks, but as more baby boomers retire and suck off government pensions, more of these government programs will see serious cuts -- and that's not even including social security.


This.


LectertheChef: To be fair, San Diego's pension plan has been farked up for quite awhile, and something had to be done. I don't know if 401k's were the best answer, but something had to happen. Most people know that this has been the fault of the city council, and the dumbasses who were supposed to be managing the pension fund. Those that don't realize this listen to Roger Hedgecock.


This.


Kuta: I live in Vallejo, CA and am getting a kick out of these replies.

Pensions are unsustainable, economically and politically. I am all for labor negotiating whatever terms they can get with respect to wages, but tying the hands of the body politic for decades into the future is ethically wrong. Public sector union members (yes, this means police and fire safety too) should do a bit of self-reflection and see that the rest of us really don't think its fair that you get a free retirement on our shoulders. Sorry, that's just how it is.


And this.

The public employee pension programs in California are unsustainable in their current form. Anyone who argues otherwise is a liar. In the absence of the unions agreeing to some heavy duty compromises, the voters are going to take matters into their own hands.
 
2012-06-07 04:22:22 PM  

MFL: xalres
Now think about the fact that the people in favor of gutting unions for this reason are the same ones that scream "politics of envy" when arguing against raising taxes on the rich one iota

Unions can play the victim all day long, but this working class hero crap doesn't stick too well when the people that are paying for them to retire at 55 with full benefits and a generous pension could only imagine having that luxury themselves.

In a free economy the private sector is higher on the economic food chain than the public sector. When that truth becomes reversed, you get whats going on in Greece and Spain right now.


I'm just pointing out how amusing it is that the people who decry the left for engaging in envy politics turn around and try to gut unions because "they have it better than us".
 
2012-06-07 04:27:34 PM  

Guidette Frankentits: I don't got mine, fark you?


Good thing the pension reform in San Jose will be overturned. The city has contracts with the Public Employee Unions that they signed off on. No judge in their right mind would void those contracts.


Eh, we'll have to see how stuff goes in San Jose. I find it pretty hubristic of the unions who say that, basically, nothing can be taken away from them without something given in return, yet things can be given to them ad infinitum with nothing taken away in return.

Union pensions currently take up 20% of the general fund in San Jose (they've gone from costing around $70 million to $250 million in the past decade, and they'll continue to rise). That's clearly unsustainable.
 
2012-06-07 04:29:01 PM  

cman: cman: DarwiOdrade: Bill_Wick's_Friend: cman: WTF is wrong with me today?

Same thing that's wrong with you most days.

Your knee-jerk need to declare "Obama bad! Unions bad! Both sides wrong so vote Republican!" overrides your brain. Your car is in "drive" before the keys are in the ignition.

But he's totally not a conservative, and don't you dare say he is!

Yes, I am the rightest of the right, a proud Republican donor! My great Republican ideology of marriage equality, transgender equality (changing ones birth certificate to indicate their correct gender), freedom to burn the American flag, ensuring that church and state stay separate, ending the war on drugs, the legalization of all drugs, ensuring a proper treatment for the GITMO detainees (who should have legal representation), anti-racism and support for the 1964 civil rights voting act, and the big one, not worshiping with all of my heart the armed forces. Very Republican, aint i?

Oh, and to top it all off, I supported the recall against Walker, and I wanted the Democrat nominee to take it home. I was very active in those threads and I gave my reasons why I supported it. But, to save you the trouble, I will sum it up: I wanted Walker out for his hyper-partisanship and for denying teachers the right to have collective bargaining as a right. I wanted the GOP to be humbled (maybe they would have stopped much of their bullshiat if they were)

But of course, I am just one of those right-winged Republican bigots.


Is this some sort of reverse trolling bit?
 
2012-06-07 04:30:04 PM  

Wangiss: Do you mean this for desk jockeys as well?


How many desk jockeys retire from their jobs on disability? Probably nowhere near as many as cops and firefighters. But sitting at a desk all day isn't going to help chronic medical conditions. That's true of a public or private sector job.

Few things are certain: health care costs are increasing, more people are getting more chronic medical conditions, we have more people in prison than any other country and there will always be a need for firefighters, cops and teachers.

Take away those 3 jobs or make the those three occupations so undesirable no one wants to do them and see what happens.
 
2012-06-07 04:33:29 PM  

turbidum: Union pensions currently take up 20% of the general fund in San Jose (they've gone from costing around $70 million to $250 million in the past decade, and they'll continue to rise). That's clearly unsustainable.


What's unsustainable is the cost of living in San Jose and California. But sure that's totally the union's fault.
 
2012-06-07 04:36:12 PM  

MFL: Unions can play the victim all day long, but this working class hero crap doesn't stick too well when the people that are paying for them to retire at 55 with full benefits and a generous pension could only imagine having that luxury themselves.


Yes, how dare the people who run into your house to save your ass not be compensated.
 
2012-06-07 04:36:47 PM  

Guidette Frankentits: Wangiss: Do you mean this for desk jockeys as well?

How many desk jockeys retire from their jobs on disability? Probably nowhere near as many as cops and firefighters. But sitting at a desk all day isn't going to help chronic medical conditions. That's true of a public or private sector job.

Few things are certain: health care costs are increasing, more people are getting more chronic medical conditions, we have more people in prison than any other country and there will always be a need for firefighters, cops and teachers.

Take away those 3 jobs or make the those three occupations so undesirable no one wants to do them and see what happens.


Is someone arguing for a situation that would make those three occupations so undesirable no one wants to do them? There are pretty rigorous requirements and pretty decent waiting lists for all of them. I don't see that labor pool running out any time soon. I don't think we're even close to under-compensating the cops and firefighters. Teachers seem to have some sort of Socratic ideal and a fascination with hemlock. I'm going to have to admit upfront that I don't understand teachers.

"You can go to school for six years and make money, or go to school for six years and not make money. Which do you choose?"

"I want to be a teacher!"

I long thought of becoming a professor of Japanese pedagogy. That won't happen for me unless the waiting lines get shorter. I'd rather live a decent life and let the masochists suffer for their art.
 
2012-06-07 04:43:43 PM  

Wangiss: Guidette Frankentits: Wangiss: Do you mean this for desk jockeys as well?

How many desk jockeys retire from their jobs on disability? Probably nowhere near as many as cops and firefighters. But sitting at a desk all day isn't going to help chronic medical conditions. That's true of a public or private sector job.

Few things are certain: health care costs are increasing, more people are getting more chronic medical conditions, we have more people in prison than any other country and there will always be a need for firefighters, cops and teachers.

Take away those 3 jobs or make the those three occupations so undesirable no one wants to do them and see what happens.

Is someone arguing for a situation that would make those three occupations so undesirable no one wants to do them? There are pretty rigorous requirements and pretty decent waiting lists for all of them. I don't see that labor pool running out any time soon. I don't think we're even close to under-compensating the cops and firefighters. Teachers seem to have some sort of Socratic ideal and a fascination with hemlock. I'm going to have to admit upfront that I don't understand teachers.


Don't you get it? The waiting lists are for people who want to join a career that gives them good benefits. How long do you think the waiting list is gonna be when people aren't getting medical care for injuries they sustained on the job while fire fighting?

"You can go to school for six years and make money, or go to school for six years and not make money. Which do you choose?"

"I want to be a teacher!"

I long thought of becoming a professor of Japanese pedagogy. That won't happen for me unless the waiting lines get shorter. I'd rather live a decent life and let the masochists suffer for their art.


You proved my point.
 
2012-06-07 04:46:33 PM  

change1211: cman: cman: DarwiOdrade: Bill_Wick's_Friend: cman: WTF is wrong with me today?

Same thing that's wrong with you most days.

Your knee-jerk need to declare "Obama bad! Unions bad! Both sides wrong so vote Republican!" overrides your brain. Your car is in "drive" before the keys are in the ignition.

But he's totally not a conservative, and don't you dare say he is!

Yes, I am the rightest of the right, a proud Republican donor! My great Republican ideology of marriage equality, transgender equality (changing ones birth certificate to indicate their correct gender), freedom to burn the American flag, ensuring that church and state stay separate, ending the war on drugs, the legalization of all drugs, ensuring a proper treatment for the GITMO detainees (who should have legal representation), anti-racism and support for the 1964 civil rights voting act, and the big one, not worshiping with all of my heart the armed forces. Very Republican, aint i?

Oh, and to top it all off, I supported the recall against Walker, and I wanted the Democrat nominee to take it home. I was very active in those threads and I gave my reasons why I supported it. But, to save you the trouble, I will sum it up: I wanted Walker out for his hyper-partisanship and for denying teachers the right to have collective bargaining as a right. I wanted the GOP to be humbled (maybe they would have stopped much of their bullshiat if they were)

But of course, I am just one of those right-winged Republican bigots.

Is this some sort of reverse trolling bit?


No. If you were to pay attention to all of my posts and not just the ones that disagree with your beliefs, you would see me in a much different light.

This is what annoys me the most; if I dont disagree with you you will pay no mind. Because of that, your view of me will not be accurate.
 
2012-06-07 04:47:29 PM  

Guidette Frankentits: turbidum: Union pensions currently take up 20% of the general fund in San Jose (they've gone from costing around $70 million to $250 million in the past decade, and they'll continue to rise). That's clearly unsustainable.

What's unsustainable is the cost of living in San Jose and California. But sure that's totally the union's fault.


Good job not responding to my actual point.
 
2012-06-07 04:55:12 PM  

Guidette Frankentits: Wangiss: I long thought of becoming a professor of Japanese pedagogy. That won't happen for me unless the waiting lines get shorter. I'd rather live a decent life and let the masochists suffer for their art.

You proved my point.


That's what weirds me out. It's not like you have to suffer to be a teacher, but they all seem to do it. Why? For the cause? If we have such a steady stream of applicants that only people who are using it as a second household income can afford to teach, and we keep lowering the pay and benefits (that's hypothetical) and we still have an overwhelming supply of eager and willing teachers, there's still no point to raise pay. We'll still have teachers working. Over and over we see that raising pay doesn't improve teacher performance. And even when we do raise pay it doesn't last because the bureaucracy is siphoning off every dollar they can to "administrators" and the teachers still get what they insist is crap pay. And yet, so many people will line up for the pleasure of this pain.

It is not our responsibility to feed these people. It's our job to teach the kids, so we have to compensate the teachers enough to keep a stock of them. Would they do it for free?
 
2012-06-07 04:56:07 PM  
So because your 401K tanked you need to take it out on the pensioners so you can feel better about yourself. Hooray for the race to the bottom!
 
2012-06-07 04:57:52 PM  

Jackson Herring: Corporate media biased towards unions?


holy fark is this not the dumbest sentence ever committed to the electronic ether?


Everybodys' sarcasm meter is broken today apparently.
 
2012-06-07 05:05:06 PM  

Virulency: wheres that chart that shows that govenment pay was supposed to keep up with private pay because private pay was just skyrocketing when the middle class was growing, its just that private pay stagnated and fell while government pay continued the trend... is it that government pay should be lowered or that private workers are just not moving....


Back in 2006 private employees used to make fun of their government counterparts because they had better pay, benefits, and a fat 401K because the market was booming. Now that private employees are largely stuck with reduced and stagnating wages, fewer benefits, and retirement accounts that tanked, public employees make easy targets for those that want to distract from their wealthy benefactors who are laughing all the way to the bank.
 
2012-06-07 05:05:25 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


They smarter than the idiots who thinks those benefits pay for themselves or are financed by Obama money.

And if by people you mean the tax payers who have to pay for those exorbitant government benefits of course they are upset. The private sector is not able to just reach in the pockets of the tax payer (unless you are the UAW and GM) to finance those benefits. They have to answer to shareholders and investors plus actually generate a profit to pay for the benefits.. Now the politicians and unions are finding out the tax payers are not willing to be treated like their private ATMs anymore.

Politicians and government employee unions scratched each others back with the tax payers footing the bill. Unions help the politician get elected in exchange for those benefits They kicked any financial concerns down the road hoping they would not have to answer for it when the bills came do. Well the bastards have run out of road. The single largest source of debt many state and local governments now face are those same exorbitant benefits.

Heaven forbid that government employees should have to contribute more toward their own benefits the way people with real jobs have to. Outside of the emergency service types few civil "servants" do any real work that they have to show resutls for.

Fark the assholes who rather bankrupt a city for their own greed. They are just as bad as Wall Street bankers in my book.
 
2012-06-07 05:08:39 PM  
WE ARE WINNING!!!
 
2012-06-07 05:13:28 PM  
Many states and cities are going to a 401 K style retirement and doing away with pensions altogether. There is hardly a remaining pension plan in place anywhere that is not trying to either freeze pension benefits, raise the eligibility age, decrease benefits, or increase the employee contribution percentage.
Most state and municipalities chose to either raid pension monies along with the general operating budgets, underfund them or leave them completely unfunded.
These actions mirror what is taking place with Social Security.

The promises of EITHER political party are WORTHLESS! Particularly those made several decades ago. Is one single person truly surprised that voters, ergo all humans, can be short-sighted, greedy and lack empathy??? If given the choice between new roads, police & firefighting budgets or paying Ms. Crabapple's pension for 38 years of faithful teaching service, I promise most of you will tell the poor teacher or nurse to eat catfood and fark off & die already, old bag.

Even democratic voters and union members voted to change current pension AND union benefits as they were seen as unsustainable. I am hoping to collect my nursing pension, but if I don't I will not starve nor will I 'fark off & die'. Weapons, ammo, fishing supplies are also an investment strategy these days for a truly diversified retirement portfolio. I'll kill the rich and the politicians for shiats and giggles, I'll eat their fat children because they're so tender. MMMMMM, long pig.

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-06-07 05:14:39 PM  

Guidette Frankentits: MFL: Unions can play the victim all day long, but this working class hero crap doesn't stick too well when the people that are paying for them to retire at 55 with full benefits and a generous pension could only imagine having that luxury themselves.

Yes, how dare the people who run into your house to save your ass not be compensated.


But what about the guys who build the fire trucks for those firefighters or the equipment they wear or the hoses they use? Are they less valuable because they only make the things that help keep firefighters safe? Because while a firefighter who runs into a building can retire with a nice pension at 55, the guys making all those things for firefighters are struggling to get by, won't be able to retire until they're 70 if they're lucky, will never seen $1 of a pension and it's their taxes that pay the pension of that firefighter.

And to be fair, I highly doubt most of the pension we're talking about is going to firefighters. It's going to DMV clerks, jury duty processors and school secretaries. All have important jobs in our society, but what makes answering phones at a high school for 20 years to put food on your table better than someone who is sitting in a corporate office doing the same thing for their family? How come you get to retire at 55 with full pension and benefits paid for by the person doing the same job with nowhere close to the same benefits?
 
2012-06-07 05:17:55 PM  

KungFuJunkie: Was reading this morning that MN and MI are going to be more aggressive against unions after the recall fail.

"But Walker's victory Tuesday is encouraging Republicans in other states to push ahead with their own efforts to curtail unions' power and chop away at the benefits gained for their members over the years.

GOP lawmakers in states such as Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri and New Hampshire are likely to push harder for right-to-work legislation or other measures that restrict automatic union dues collection."


The only way Republicans will do it in Minnesota will be by Constitutional amendment. We have a DFL (Democratic) governor Mark Dayton and he will veto anything like Walker & the Fitzgerald brothers unethically forced through. They did get gay marriage and voter ID on as amendments this fall, so I can see a anti-union measure pushed through by 2014 unless the DFL regains at least one house of the legislature this fall.
 
2012-06-07 05:21:07 PM  

cabbyman: WE ARE WINNING!!!


4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-06-07 05:22:04 PM  

cabbyman: WE ARE WINNING!!!


Yes, you and Charlie Sheen do make a cute couple. I don't care what your mom says.
 
2012-06-07 05:24:11 PM  
Fart_Machine ...Great minds and all that. Liked your comment BTW. Some people are just askin' for it. LOL
 
2012-06-07 05:29:47 PM  

Dahnkster: Fart_Machine ...Great minds and all that. Liked your comment BTW. Some people are just askin' for it. LOL


Low hanging fruit and all that. :P
 
2012-06-07 06:05:01 PM  

sabreWulf07: Bound and determined to do this all over again, eh? Do it. Vote yourselves into serfdom. It's what America deserves.


My favorite part of the book is the slight tint if the milk from the formaldehyde put in it to keep it from spoiling.

/of course now even raw milk is illegal.
 
2012-06-07 06:06:16 PM  

Guidette Frankentits: turbidum: Union pensions currently take up 20% of the general fund in San Jose (they've gone from costing around $70 million to $250 million in the past decade, and they'll continue to rise). That's clearly unsustainable.

What's unsustainable is the cost of living in San Jose and California. But sure that's totally the union's fault.


Unions did support Prop 13.
 
2012-06-07 06:08:57 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else. Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


Part of the problem is the perception that California jobs are leaving the state for places like Nevada, Arizona and Texas because California is no longer cost competitive. Somebody from California only has so much power to lift the standards in competing states, so they look inwards instead. That means that they'll lower themselves to remain on the same field as the other guys.

As long as Congress and the president remain so pro-business and we have to compete with unequal trading partners like China, we as a country will just keep sinking back towards the days before unions.
 
2012-06-07 06:37:11 PM  

Pincy: "Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.

Yep, that's always the way I've viewed it as well. Instead of organizing to make their own pay and benefits better they'd rather screw everyone who is doing better than them. I've never really understood it myself."



So...out of curiosity, what do you think our economy, employment rate, and domestic health of exportable market segments like manufacturing will look like once everybody's time is artificially priced higher than market rate?
 
2012-06-07 07:28:16 PM  

killershark: And to be fair, I highly doubt most of the pension we're talking about is going to firefighters. It's going to DMV clerks, jury duty processors and school secretaries. All have important jobs in our society, but what makes answering phones at a high school for 20 years to put food on your table better than someone who is sitting in a corporate office doing the same thing for their family? How come you get to retire at 55 with full pension and benefits paid for by the person doing the same job with nowhere close to the same benefits?


They get better benefits and pensions because they get worse pay. If you look at public sector vs. private sector total compensations, the public sector employees earn 88% of the pay and have 93% of the total compensation of a similarly educated private sector employee.
 
2012-06-07 07:32:14 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


My favorite is, "We promised these people pensions as part of their pay, but we screwed up the budget when we gave all of our friends cushy contracts. Lets just steal that money!" and they have spent BILLIONS to make the proles think its a Great idea.

They will not stop until they have rolled back the clock to the 1500's and we are living in a serfdom.

/ It's NEVER been about the economy. Its about CONTROL.
 
2012-06-07 07:40:07 PM  

hasty ambush: Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.

They smarter than the idiots who thinks those benefits pay for themselves or are financed by Obama money.

And if by people you mean the tax payers who have to pay for those exorbitant government benefits of course they are upset. The private sector is not able to just reach in the pockets of the tax payer (unless you are the UAW and GM) to finance those benefits. They have to answer to shareholders and investors plus actually generate a profit to pay for the benefits.. Now the politicians and unions are finding out the tax payers are not willing to be treated like their private ATMs anymore.

Politicians and government employee unions scratched each others back with the tax payers footing the bill. Unions help the politician get elected in exchange for those benefits They kicked any financial concerns down the road hoping they would not have to answer for it when the bills came do. Well the bastards have run out of road. The single largest source of debt many state and local governments now face are those same exorbitant benefits.

Heaven forbid that government employees should have to contribute more toward their own benefits the way people with real jobs have to. Outside of the emergency service types few civil "servants" do any real work that they have to show resutls for.

Fark the assholes who rather bankrupt a city for their own greed. They are just as bad as Wall Street bankers in my book.


You could have just said "I don't know what I'm talking about" and saved yourself about ten minutes.
 
2012-06-07 08:22:58 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.


The difference is that it's taxpayer money. The taxpayers voted and made it clear they don't want to pay union prices to receive government services. Done. Now if people who were in the public unions don't like the decision, they can go work in a private company and set up a union there, forever safe from having their benefits voted away by the taxpayer. Unless of course the company is bailed out..by the taxpayer.
 
2012-06-07 08:23:45 PM  

vernonFL: California VOTERS are the idiots. What did they think would happen when they decided to throw everyone in prison with a "3 strikes" law? So California has overcrowded prisons now, and has to build more prisons and has to staff those prisons. Also they need more police more judges more lawyers, etc...All public sector workers.


No kidding... California not only gave the country Boxer and Feinstein, but they're always a solid blue state every four years.
 
2012-06-07 08:37:10 PM  

fozziewazzi: The taxpayers voted and made it clear they don't want to pay union prices to receive government services. Done.


The immediate next step is taxpayers whining that they aren't getting government services anymore. Done.
 
2012-06-07 08:42:18 PM  

fozziewazzi: Benevolent Misanthrope: So, people are upset that union workers get better pensions than they do - and their answer to that is not to organize and demand better benefits themselves, or pass laws that make sure everyone gets good benefits, but to fark over the unionized city employees so they get the same corporate-controlled, shiatty retirement option as everyone else.

Great. Absolute genius, you farking assholes.

The difference is that it's taxpayer money. The taxpayers voted and made it clear they don't want to pay union prices to receive government services. Done. Now if people who were in the public unions don't like the decision, they can go work in a private company and set up a union there, forever safe from having their benefits voted away by the taxpayer. Unless of course the company is bailed out..by the taxpayer.


Do you understand why teachers have unions?
 
2012-06-07 09:03:36 PM  

Ontos: vernonFL: California VOTERS are the idiots. What did they think would happen when they decided to throw everyone in prison with a "3 strikes" law? So California has overcrowded prisons now, and has to build more prisons and has to staff those prisons. Also they need more police more judges more lawyers, etc...All public sector workers.

No kidding... California not only gave the country Boxer and Feinstein, but they're always a solid blue state every four years. Derp!

 
2012-06-07 10:03:38 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: fozziewazzi: The taxpayers voted and made it clear they don't want to pay union prices to receive government services. Done.

The immediate next step is taxpayers whining that they aren't getting government services anymore. Done.


I'm thinking they can get say, the services of a bus driver for less than $60k/yr with a retirement that includes a guaranteed pension benefit and health insurance. Unions aren't so much about protecting worker's 'rights' than they are about artificially inflating salaries and benefits way above what the open labor market would dictate. If a private company wants to do that fine. When it's taxpayers footing the bill it's a problem.
 
2012-06-07 10:04:22 PM  
People complain about their tax money paying for State workers pensions but part of every dollar you spend anywhere, private or public sector, union or non-union, it doesn't matter it goes to someone's retirement.

I'd like to find out were some of these people that complain about public workers are employed so I can go to their management and demand they cut these individuals retirement benefits so they can lower the cost of the product or service. If it's ok to do that for the public sector, should be ok to do it for the private as well.
 
2012-06-07 10:08:29 PM  

fozziewazzi: Sergeant Grumbles: fozziewazzi: The taxpayers voted and made it clear they don't want to pay union prices to receive government services. Done.

The immediate next step is taxpayers whining that they aren't getting government services anymore. Done.

I'm thinking they can get say, the services of a bus driver for less than $60k/yr with a retirement that includes a guaranteed pension benefit and health insurance. Unions aren't so much about protecting worker's 'rights' than they are about artificially inflating salaries and benefits way above what the open labor market would dictate. If a private company wants to do that fine. When it's taxpayers footing the bill it's a problem.


Do you have a citation on these bus drivers earning 60K a year?
 
2012-06-07 10:10:40 PM  

dennysgod: People complain about their tax money paying for State workers pensions but part of every dollar you spend anywhere, private or public sector, union or non-union, it doesn't matter it goes to someone's retirement.

I'd like to find out were some of these people that complain about public workers are employed so I can go to their management and demand they cut these individuals retirement benefits so they can lower the cost of the product or service. If it's ok to do that for the public sector, should be ok to do it for the private as well.


See here the magic of the free market - you can actually tell a company to lower it's employees pay and benefits...by not buying that company's product or service. Your wallet is your vote. If a company is trying to pay for their employee's salaries and benefits through higher prices on their product, you can refuse.

How does this work in the public sector? We don't have the option of refusing to pay taxes for overpriced services.
 
2012-06-07 10:18:04 PM  

Fart_Machine: fozziewazzi: Sergeant Grumbles: fozziewazzi: The taxpayers voted and made it clear they don't want to pay union prices to receive government services. Done.

The immediate next step is taxpayers whining that they aren't getting government services anymore. Done.

I'm thinking they can get say, the services of a bus driver for less than $60k/yr with a retirement that includes a guaranteed pension benefit and health insurance. Unions aren't so much about protecting worker's 'rights' than they are about artificially inflating salaries and benefits way above what the open labor market would dictate. If a private company wants to do that fine. When it's taxpayers footing the bill it's a problem.

Do you have a citation on these bus drivers earning 60K a year?


Just this once I'll pay 'go-fetch' with you.

http://gothamist.com/2010/03/09/bus_drivers_get_paid_2799hour_not_e.p h p
 
2012-06-07 10:28:26 PM  

fozziewazzi: Fart_Machine: fozziewazzi: Sergeant Grumbles: fozziewazzi: The taxpayers voted and made it clear they don't want to pay union prices to receive government services. Done.

The immediate next step is taxpayers whining that they aren't getting government services anymore. Done.

I'm thinking they can get say, the services of a bus driver for less than $60k/yr with a retirement that includes a guaranteed pension benefit and health insurance. Unions aren't so much about protecting worker's 'rights' than they are about artificially inflating salaries and benefits way above what the open labor market would dictate. If a private company wants to do that fine. When it's taxpayers footing the bill it's a problem.

Do you have a citation on these bus drivers earning 60K a year?

Just this once I'll pay 'go-fetch' with you.

http://gothamist.com/2010/03/09/bus_drivers_get_paid_2799hour_not_e.p h p


Well your link doesn't work when I cut and paste it so I'm going to guess that includes overtime which isn't unreasonable. City bus drivers earn about as much as city truck drivers for private companies. Meh.
 
2012-06-07 10:35:08 PM  

Fart_Machine: fozziewazzi: Fart_Machine:

Well your link doesn't work when I cut and paste it so I'm going to guess that includes overtime which isn't unreasonable. City bus drivers earn about as much as city truck drivers for private companies. Meh.


$27.99/hr over a year is ~$60k. Vacations are paid. Overtime makes that salary a lot healthier. Add in a guaranteed pension and generous health benefits. Compared to what a private bus company would pay a NYC union bus driver is golden.
 
2012-06-07 10:38:53 PM  

fozziewazzi: Fart_Machine: fozziewazzi: Fart_Machine:

Well your link doesn't work when I cut and paste it so I'm going to guess that includes overtime which isn't unreasonable. City bus drivers earn about as much as city truck drivers for private companies. Meh.

$27.99/hr over a year is ~$60k. Vacations are paid. Overtime makes that salary a lot healthier. Add in a guaranteed pension and generous health benefits. Compared to what a private bus company would pay a NYC union bus driver is golden.


Depends what the private bus company does. But I know everybody is better off when we drive wages downward amirite?
 
2012-06-07 10:57:18 PM  

Fart_Machine: fozziewazzi: Fart_Machine: fozziewazzi: Fart_Machine:

Well your link doesn't work when I cut and paste it so I'm going to guess that includes overtime which isn't unreasonable. City bus drivers earn about as much as city truck drivers for private companies. Meh.

$27.99/hr over a year is ~$60k. Vacations are paid. Overtime makes that salary a lot healthier. Add in a guaranteed pension and generous health benefits. Compared to what a private bus company would pay a NYC union bus driver is golden.

Depends what the private bus company does. But I know everybody is better off when we drive wages downward amirite?


When wages level out to the what the open labor market will bear? You bet, everybody is better. Well, everybody except public union workers used to being grossly overpaid for their services.
 
2012-06-07 11:03:37 PM  

fozziewazzi: Fart_Machine: fozziewazzi: Fart_Machine: fozziewazzi: Fart_Machine:

Well your link doesn't work when I cut and paste it so I'm going to guess that includes overtime which isn't unreasonable. City bus drivers earn about as much as city truck drivers for private companies. Meh.

$27.99/hr over a year is ~$60k. Vacations are paid. Overtime makes that salary a lot healthier. Add in a guaranteed pension and generous health benefits. Compared to what a private bus company would pay a NYC union bus driver is golden.

Depends what the private bus company does. But I know everybody is better off when we drive wages downward amirite?

When wages level out to the what the open labor market will bear? You bet, everybody is better. Well, everybody except public union workers used to being grossly overpaid for their services.


Starting city bus drivers make around $20 an hour, drive around on crowded city streets and have to deal with a general public who in an urban area can be dangerous. So no, they aren't all earning 60K a year. After working for years they can make those wages however that isn't to start. So what you are talking about is that you want them to be just as underpaid as how low the market will go.
 
2012-06-07 11:06:34 PM  

fozziewazzi: $27.99/hr over a year is ~$60k. Vacations are paid. Overtime makes that salary a lot healthier. Add in a guaranteed pension and generous health benefits. Compared to what a private bus company would pay a NYC union bus driver is golden.


What you're not taking into account is that $60K/year in NYC is like $40K anywhere else. Housing is absurdly expensive and sales tax is 9%.
 
2012-06-07 11:16:21 PM  

Kuta: I live in Vallejo, CA and am getting a kick out of these replies.

Pensions are unsustainable, economically and politically. I am all for labor negotiating whatever terms they can get with respect to wages, but tying the hands of the body politic for decades into the future is ethically wrong. Public sector union members (yes, this means police and fire safety too) should do a bit of self-reflection and see that the rest of us really don't think its fair that you get a free retirement on our shoulders. Sorry, that's just how it is.


Pensions are a form of deferred compensation. If we ask someone to work for us, and promise them $20 today and $10 next week, we'd better have that $10 when they come asking for it, don't you agree?

When they're funded in an actuarially sound manner, pensions are by that very definition economically sustainable. When they get used as a piggybank, or when cities underfund them because they can't or won't come up with the scratch, yes, we have a problem.

As far as pensions being politically unsustainable, you're probably right, because it's easier to drag the next guy down to one's level than it is to improve one's own condition. (See also: race to the bottom.)

As for tying the hands of the body politic for decades to come, how do you imagine that bonds work? There's nothing wrong with making a multi-decade financial commitment, unless one has no intention of fulfilling that commitment. I call that fraud.
 
2012-06-07 11:38:50 PM  
Maybe we are sick of California being the poster child for government deficits.

In OC the proposal was to require new state employees to pick the smaller of two currently available pensions. Not really radical reform given the state of government finances.

If people want to save additional money for retirement, they are more than welcome to do it on their own.
 
2012-06-08 12:36:56 AM  

Wangiss: I dunno, man. Seems like the movement that brought us unions here was pretty important. The Labor movement got us the 40-hour week, an extra holiday, and even aided feminists in the fight against sex discrimination in the workplace. But is there no point at which their efforts get, I dunno, ridiculous? Unions negotiate for the workers, which is fine, but Public Unions also get to vote their boss in, then use a portion (dues) of the tax money the boss gives them as campaign donations. You don't see a conflict of interest there?


Wait. Who gives what to who? Paychecks aren't gifts.
Workers join unions to get collective bargaining.
This raises their pay.
Part of this raise is used to pay the costs of getting the raise.

Simple business.

The government is just another employer to be negotiated with.

If the employers have professional negotiators, why shouldn't the workers?
If the employers can lobby congress, why shouldn't the workers?
If the employers can profit, why shouldn't the workers?

The government is just another employer to be negotiated with.
 
2012-06-08 01:07:51 AM  
MFL: Unions can play the victim all day long, but this working class hero crap doesn't stick too well when the people that are paying for them to retire at 55 with full benefits and a generous pension could only imagine having that luxury themselves.

www.stcloud.org

You dropped something.
 
2012-06-08 01:30:38 AM  

Fart_Machine: fozziewazzi: Sergeant Grumbles: fozziewazzi: The taxpayers voted and made it clear they don't want to pay union prices to receive government services. Done.

The immediate next step is taxpayers whining that they aren't getting government services anymore. Done.

I'm thinking they can get say, the services of a bus driver for less than $60k/yr with a retirement that includes a guaranteed pension benefit and health insurance. Unions aren't so much about protecting worker's 'rights' than they are about artificially inflating salaries and benefits way above what the open labor market would dictate. If a private company wants to do that fine. When it's taxpayers footing the bill it's a problem.

Do you have a citation on these bus drivers earning 60K a year?


Of course he doesn't. I have a citation, though, that shows that a public bus driver can expect to make an average of $36,000 per year, and that a transit bus driver or a school bus driver can expect to make $23-34,000 per year, with only those in the 95th percentile making more than $45,000.

Link

Link
 
2012-06-08 01:44:26 AM  

Selena Luna: Of course he doesn't. I have a citation, though, that shows that a public bus driver can expect to make an average of $36,000 per year, and that a transit bus driver or a school bus driver can expect to make $23-34,000 per year, with only those in the 95th percentile making more than $45,000.


He was talking about NYC - of course he picked the city with the highest cost of living of anywhere in the United States.

NYC's cost of living is 218% of the national average, so $60k/year there is equivalent to $28k in a place at the national average cost of living.
 
2012-06-08 02:16:06 AM  
I know, but most of the country does not live in NYC, and the part that does really has to be paid at a higher rate, because the cost of living is so high, not just on Manhattan island, but all over the city.
 
2012-06-08 02:49:13 AM  
1924: Stalin bans all free trade unions and outlaws strikes.
1929: Mussolini guts trade unions and puts them under corporate and government control.
1933: Hitler abolishes collective bargaining, trade unions and arrests their leaders.
 
2012-06-08 04:43:02 AM  

Bucky Katt: 1924: Stalin bans all free trade unions and outlaws strikes.
1929: Mussolini guts trade unions and puts them under corporate and government control.
1933: Hitler abolishes collective bargaining, trade unions and arrests their leaders.


With a G to the O and a D fortha Winnnnnn...
 
2012-06-08 03:33:03 PM  

Fart_Machine: fozziewazzi: Fart_Machine: fozziewazzi: Sergeant Grumbles: fozziewazzi: The taxpayers voted and made it clear they don't want to pay union prices to receive government services. Done.

The immediate next step is taxpayers whining that they aren't getting government services anymore. Done.

I'm thinking they can get say, the services of a bus driver for less than $60k/yr with a retirement that includes a guaranteed pension benefit and health insurance. Unions aren't so much about protecting worker's 'rights' than they are about artificially inflating salaries and benefits way above what the open labor market would dictate. If a private company wants to do that fine. When it's taxpayers footing the bill it's a problem.

Do you have a citation on these bus drivers earning 60K a year?

Just this once I'll pay 'go-fetch' with you.

http://gothamist.com/2010/03/09/bus_drivers_get_paid_2799hour_not_e.p h p

Well your link doesn't work when I cut and paste it so I'm going to guess that includes overtime which isn't unreasonable. City bus drivers earn about as much as city truck drivers for private companies. Meh.



Here's the same link in clickable form.

"...a union leader thinks the $27.99/hour wage earned by some senior bus drivers is completely merited...Even at that generous rate, NYC bus drivers aren't the best paid in the nation, according to a ranking by a transit research firm. In Boston, bus drivers earn $30.18/hour, and in San Jose, Chicago, Seattle and Rockville they get close to that much.
 
2012-06-08 06:52:12 PM  

spmkk: Here's the same link in clickable form.

"...a union leader thinks the $27.99/hour wage earned by some senior bus drivers is completely merited...Even at that generous rate, NYC bus drivers aren't the best paid in the nation, according to a ranking by a transit research firm. In Boston, bus drivers earn $30.18/hour, and in San Jose, Chicago, Seattle and Rockville they get close to that much.


27.99 would be cheap for NYC, considering both the high cost of living and the high stress of driving in one of the worst traffic cities in the nation.
 
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