burndtdan: kickapuppy: burndtdan: GAT_00: because all apps take up the full screen

Aaaaaaaaannnnd that's enough right there, I'm never using it.

i'm curious how that will work with multiple monitors. when i'm using a real computer, i'm not limited to one screen, but i get the feeling they insist that i am.

and even with one screen... the reason you need things to take up the whole screen on a phone is because the screen is so small that this is the only way you can really see it. on a 23"+ monitor, this isn't exactly the same. seriously, wtf are they smoking?

I have three monitors and when I launch the Metro bits it only appears on the primary display. The others show desktops. On that note each display gets its own taskbar, unfortunately all active apps appear on each taskbar regardless of which display the window is living on.

on the one hand that's bad because it shows they didn't design this new UI to be expandable to fit the real world of pc computing. on the other hand that's good because at least they quarantined it to the primary display so if you hate it you can still do other things. it will still be confusing, however, and it shows that their new design isn't nearly fully baked.

That is true, I don't see much use for multi-display metro stuff right now, but in the future that could be an issue. Customizable taskbars per display and stuff like that would be nice. They still have 6 months before the planned release to tweak all of these things so hopefully it all gets ironed out.

Most importantly for me personally has been the stability and compatibility of it. I have not yet had any problems installing software. Office2010, VSphere, AnyConnect, SecureCRT, NMap, WebexConnect, Chrome, FireFox, Opera, ASDM, are my bread and butter and they all function flawlessly with the exception of some garbage text that was in the AnyConnect registry key which prevented it from firing up the virtual tunneling adapter. After removing that from the regkey it works like a champ.

MrEricSir: rhiannon: Ok. At this point I can only conclude you don't know what an "office application" is.

Applications that come with MS Office? Because that's all I'm talking about. Never had a use for it since college.

Good for you. The rest of the corporate world uses it, and uses it a LOT - technical, nontechnical, manager, and individual contributor alike. As I said before, I'm not saying it's the right way to do business and communicate information, but it's the way it is, so OS creators have to deal with it.

But this insane idea you have about only secretaries using these tools, or only "dinosaur" companies that think in terms of paper - you're waaaayy outside of reality here. Just because you're locked up in your software silo (even away from other engineers, it seems), doesn't mean that the rest of the world operates as you do. You're either trolling, or are sadly lacking in business acumen.

You'll also love ALL CAPITAL LETTER MENUS as part of the new Windows experience if the new Visual Studio is any hint.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: And because everyone on the planet is exactly like you with the exact same job, that means anyone using an office product is equivalent to a CEO cleaning toilets.

If I was going to hire someone for an engineering job, I certainly would be concerned if they asked for a copy of Office. It's just not the right tool for their job.

And before you say "but I know a lot of engineers who spend all day in Excel!" let me just point out that you proved my original point.

MightyPez: ehhh, kind of, not really. As it stands the start menu is indeed gone, but it still a classic desktop style with the start button being replaced by the current "Manage Your Server" application.

Was that core? Because non-core Windows Server 2012 is definitely Metro.

LadyBelgara: At the moment it looks like 8 could ultimately outshiat ME for the title of Worst Microsoft OS of All Time.

I would not bet against that. 8 is farking horrid. Time to re-evaluate Linux.

Wheeeee! FUD is FUN!!!

Here's my comment on the last "Windows 8 is gonna suuuuuuuck" thread...

The desktop isn't going ANYWHERE. Microsoft is not out to kill it, it's out to complement it. It's out to make computing safer for your grandma by having a curated app store vetted for adherence to design guidelines. Apps that run sandboxed with security contracts. These are all Good Things - When was the last time your iPad had a virus?

/Microsoft employee
//Getting "train the trainer" training in a couple weeks to train Windows 8 developers
///My opinions are mine alone, not Microsoft's.

MrEricSir: Khellendros: Whether you agree with the methodology or not is irrelevant, it's how business is done today.

As a software engineer, I've never used any office application as part of my job. If you're paying someone more than ~$60k a year, you're not going to have them wasting time on secretarial work as part of their job.

As someone who is paid more than $60k a year and is required to do analysis on Excel files, I'm getting a kick out of this reply.

In the same way I get a kick out of entering my time in three separate systems.

/I should get a kick out of updating my resume...

MrEricSir: LouDobbsAwaaaay: And because everyone on the planet is exactly like you with the exact same job, that means anyone using an office product is equivalent to a CEO cleaning toilets.

If I was going to hire someone for an engineering job, I certainly would be concerned if they asked for a copy of Office. It's just not the right tool for their job.

And before you say "but I know a lot of engineers who spend all day in Excel!" let me just point out that you proved my original point.

Ok, you've proven it - you have no business acumen. We can move on now.

MrEricSir: If I was going to hire someone for an engineering job, I certainly would be concerned if they asked for a copy of Office. It's just not the right tool for their job.

Good for you. Some of us don't have engineering jobs.

And before you say "but I know a lot of engineers who spend all day in Excel!"

I don't know any engineers. If they're anything like you it appears I dodged a bullet.

I downloaded the Beta and installed it just now. Basically, I had the same experience with it that I had with Ubuntu 12.04 - since I use a regular desktop with a KB and mouse and large monitor, I had a couple of minutes of frustration before I figured out how to turn off the mobile desktop and revert to the regular one.
W8 doesn't seem any different than W7 when used that way, except you have to use the control panel instead of start menu to access programs.
I can see no reason for a person to upgrade a regular desktop or laptop to W8.
I don't own any mobile touchscreen devices, so I can't assess how it works on those - but if the answer is "not well", then W8 really has no reason to exist.
As far as that goes, I don't know how well Unity works on mobile devices either - but at least you can turn it off easily - but again - unless it does, it's a waste of time.

LasersHurt: Your post was, verbatim:

"In related news, Valve is looking to port Steam and the Source engine to Linux.
Bye, Microsoft."

This implies that Steam is creating a Linux client, which somehow is a deathknell for Microsoft as a corporate entity.

If you meant to say "I think I'll do most of my gaming on Linux in the future, as I don't think Windows 8 looks good," your point would have carried. Instead, your post in no way conveyed what you meant it to.

You don't need smaller words, you just need the right words, and enough of them. You know, describing the thing you're trying to say.

Or maybe you can learn the difference between "implied" and "inferred". The other guy I replied to had no trouble parsing what I posted.
Your idiocy is not my problem.

LasersHurt: Bacontastesgood: MightyPez: ehhh, kind of, not really. As it stands the start menu is indeed gone, but it still a classic desktop style with the start button being replaced by the current "Manage Your Server" application.

Was that core? Because non-core Windows Server 2012 is definitely Metro.

LadyBelgara: At the moment it looks like 8 could ultimately outshiat ME for the title of Worst Microsoft OS of All Time.

I would not bet against that. 8 is farking horrid. Time to re-evaluate Linux.

I'll take your bet anytime. Most of what made ME horrid was the fact that it was wildly unstable. Win8 is not going to have that problem.

While instability problems are much less common these days, the instability wasn't the only thing that made it suck. Like Vista, it just plain didn't support shiat. Microsoft seems to go with a pattern of one good release, one hybrid piece of shiat release. 98 was Windows 95 without most of the instability issues. 2000/XP cleaned up after the mess ME made. 7 is Vista, except that it actually functions. Historically, 8 is due to fall flat on its face, and with the huge changes they're making, it's not unreasonable to think it could end up being worse than ME. Will it be? We'll find out.

Khellendros: Ok, you've proven it - you have no business acumen.

Yeah, seriously. I'd like to see him get made VP of eng and hire some engineers and then tell them their computers don't have Office on them, because that's for secretaries. And then get fired the next day because the CEO isn't an idiot.

MrEricSir: Hand Banana: Really, you're a software engineer and you've never written or even had to read a single document? Yeah right.

The only time you deal with Word documents is when you're dealing with some dinosaur company that still thinks in terms of paper. And even then, you certainly don't need a $500 application to read the file.

rhiannon: Feel free to explain...

What is there to explain? Poor use of resources is pretty obvious. Would you expect the CEO to clean the toilets?

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to agree with you. If you cannot explain a concept verbally WITHOUT powerpoint, word or even a whiteboard, you have no business on my team.

Engineering is about thinking. Thinking to the point where you can explain what you're doing quickly and easily to all audiences without props.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: I don't know any engineers. If they're anything like you it appears I dodged a bullet.

Ehh, there are buttholes in every field. Most engineers are fine in my experience.

rohar: MrEricSir: Hand Banana: Really, you're a software engineer and you've never written or even had to read a single document? Yeah right.

The only time you deal with Word documents is when you're dealing with some dinosaur company that still thinks in terms of paper. And even then, you certainly don't need a $500 application to read the file.

rhiannon: Feel free to explain...

What is there to explain? Poor use of resources is pretty obvious. Would you expect the CEO to clean the toilets?

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to agree with you. If you cannot explain a concept verbally WITHOUT powerpoint, word or even a whiteboard, you have no business on my team.

Engineering is about thinking. Thinking to the point where you can explain what you're doing quickly and easily to all audiences without props.

And promptly not documenting your thoughts to share?

/Good way to out engineer project longevity and ensure employment, I suppose.

rohar: If you cannot explain a concept verbally

Yeah, all university lectures should just be people talking, no slides ever. If a team is working on a complex system, they should just communicate orally to their manager, no schematics, no diagrams, no charts. That's a great way to make complex decisions.

ITT: a bunch of CS majors still finishing up their gen ed who have no idea how actual engineering firms work.

AcademGreen: And promptly not documenting your thoughts to share?

If someone gave me an API doc in Word or Power Point, I'd immediately cancel their contract.

MrEricSir: AcademGreen: And promptly not documenting your thoughts to share?

If someone gave me an API doc in Word or Power Point, I'd immediately cancel their contract.

Would you prefer it to be written on a napkin?

Bacontastesgood: rohar: If you cannot explain a concept verbally

Yeah, all university lectures should just be people talking, no slides ever. If a team is working on a complex system, they should just communicate orally to their manager, no schematics, no diagrams, no charts. That's a great way to make complex decisions.

That's not quite what I wrote now is it? I have no issue with documentation. If you can explain it verbally with no props, you can certainly document it with no props. But that's where Word deviates from the system. Inevitably, the explanation gains bullet points, fonts, images, everything gets much more complicated than it should be and so does the solution to whatever problem you're working on.

Reduce yourself to a simple text editor, ditch the props, and your products will be much more elegant.

rohar: Bacontastesgood: rohar: If you cannot explain a concept verbally

Yeah, all university lectures should just be people talking, no slides ever. If a team is working on a complex system, they should just communicate orally to their manager, no schematics, no diagrams, no charts. That's a great way to make complex decisions.

That's not quite what I wrote now is it? I have no issue with documentation. If you can explain it verbally with no props, you can certainly document it with no props. But that's where Word deviates from the system. Inevitably, the explanation gains bullet points, fonts, images, everything gets much more complicated than it should be and so does the solution to whatever problem you're working on.

Reduce yourself to a simple text editor, ditch the props, and your products will be much more elegant.

Readability and Elegance are not inversely proportional.

rohar: MrEricSir: Hand Banana: Really, you're a software engineer and you've never written or even had to read a single document? Yeah right.

The only time you deal with Word documents is when you're dealing with some dinosaur company that still thinks in terms of paper. And even then, you certainly don't need a $500 application to read the file.

rhiannon: Feel free to explain...

What is there to explain? Poor use of resources is pretty obvious. Would you expect the CEO to clean the toilets?

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to agree with you. If you cannot explain a concept verbally WITHOUT powerpoint, word or even a whiteboard, you have no business on my team.

Engineering is about thinking. Thinking to the point where you can explain what you're doing quickly and easily to all audiences without props.

Of course you have to be able to do that. But most of the time, you won't be there to explain. Every engineer doesn't get an audience with the VP, the customer, the proposal writer, and anyone else who needs to know what's going on each time the idea needs to be discussed, clarified, adjusted, or communicated. You'll do that with your group manager, who will tell you something like "document this" or "design the process flow for this", or "write up the specifications so it can go into the bid".

Just because it exists in your mind, or on a design schematic, or in sound waves coming from your throat, doesn't mean your job as an engineer is done. Engineers are expected to be able to summarize, present, integrate, and document. And if you have any hope of moving beyond the lowest levels, you're expected to be able to present to non-technical audiences, senior leadership, customers, and such. This requires visual aids and the like. Engineers don't, as a rule, sit in a bubble and grind out tech problems 100% of their time. They have to do things that are scary, like deal with other people.

Cythraul: Came here to say this. I think I'll skip Windows 8 and wait for Windows 9.

That seems to be my pattern, pretty consistently. On the Windows track, it's been 3.11 -> 95 -> 98 -> ME -> XP -> Vista -> 7 -> ... "Every other" seems to work just fine for me, moreso since more and more work has been in Cygwin and Linux.

Linux has been much smoother...

randroid: MrEricSir: AcademGreen: And promptly not documenting your thoughts to share?

If someone gave me an API doc in Word or Power Point, I'd immediately cancel their contract.

Would you prefer it to be written on a napkin?

No, I'd prefer it be documented using one of the many tools designed for the task. If you don't use the right tool for the job, that's a pretty damn good clue that you have no idea what you're doing.

Khellendros: rohar: MrEricSir: Hand Banana: Really, you're a software engineer and you've never written or even had to read a single document? Yeah right.

The only time you deal with Word documents is when you're dealing with some dinosaur company that still thinks in terms of paper. And even then, you certainly don't need a $500 application to read the file.

rhiannon: Feel free to explain...

What is there to explain? Poor use of resources is pretty obvious. Would you expect the CEO to clean the toilets?

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to agree with you. If you cannot explain a concept verbally WITHOUT powerpoint, word or even a whiteboard, you have no business on my team.

Engineering is about thinking. Thinking to the point where you can explain what you're doing quickly and easily to all audiences without props.

Of course you have to be able to do that. But most of the time, you won't be there to explain. Every engineer doesn't get an audience with the VP, the customer, the proposal writer, and anyone else who needs to know what's going on each time the idea needs to be discussed, clarified, adjusted, or communicated. You'll do that with your group manager, who will tell you something like "document this" or "design the process flow for this", or "write up the specifications so it can go into the bid".

Just because it exists in your mind, or on a design schematic, or in sound waves coming from your throat, doesn't mean your job as an engineer is done. Engineers are expected to be able to summarize, present, integrate, and document. And if you have any hope of moving beyond the lowest levels, you're expected to be able to present to non-technical audiences, senior leadership, customers, and such. This requires visual aids and the like. Engineers don't, as a rule, sit in a bubble and grind out tech problems 100% of their time. They have to do things that are scary, like deal with other people.

...and that's why engineering isn't managing. The best companies hire the best of both. Engineers should solve problems. Managers should manage and be proponents of their teams.

There were books on this that quantified the failures if you crossed these lines. Once upon a time, we were required to read them.

See Yourdon, Codd, Date and most importantly, Brooks. Bonus, they all made their points without diagrams.

rohar:
Reduce yourself to a simple text editor, ditch the props, and your products will be much more elegant.

I have a healthy respect for text-only documentation. I use it as a way to write documentation quickly and separate content from form; but when I have to collaborate with non-techies or someone new, it's Word and Powerpoint or some kind of PDF made from converting the text-only documentation into something more readable. I also use graphics to show complex relationships or actual data.

I don't think collaboration works when a non-technical collaborator needs to understand and provide feedback on what I'm doing via a single-font, single-weight, single-color, single-flow, text-leveled document. This is also true when my collaborator is new; they need high-level views that text alone cannot provide. Whiteboards are great, but they don't have memory (usually) or the ability for the content on them to be reused (usually) to communicate with others or be stored for others I don't communicate with directly to access.

Documents with links, footnotes, and graphics quickly communicate ideas and allow collaborators new and old to skim for information relavent to them.

Plus, document collaboration I feel is a hell of a lot easier using Word's tools than something like latex or PDF annotations.

/There are plenty who use Word and Powerpoint poorly.
//But they are the standard tools in all but a few niches.
///It doesn't mean they are bad.

Bacontastesgood: Was that core? Because non-core Windows Server 2012 is definitely Metro.

If I was talking about Core I wouldn't be referencing elements of a GUI. Here is what the desktop on 2012 looks like:



The only thing in 2012 that will be Metro is Remote Desktop Services, and that will only be exposed to end users, not admins.

LasersHurt: Implied is the correct word. Your post implied something.

Inferred is another, different word. I inferred what you meant from the context given.

Don't blame me for your poor communication.

The important thing being that the other guy inferred correctly and you did not. Besides - if you were so damned confused by what I said, you could have asked for clarification instead of being an ass. Refraining from being an ass doesn't come easily to you, I imagine.

AcademGreen: And promptly not documenting your thoughts to share?

/Good way to out engineer project longevity and ensure employment, I suppose.

I'm hugely gung ho about documenting. If only out of sympathy because of all the times I've had to read through other people's stuff and felt the need to lobotomize myself in the hopes of understanding what the hell they were trying to do with their code.

I proofread backward, forward and backward again. I do the girlfriend test -- if she can read my Perl, VB or PL/SQL script and tell me she should become a programmer because it looks like the easiest thing ever then I know I've done my documentation correctly.

However the chucklefark you turn it over to will unfailingly ask for "the summary version" or, my favorite, "I don't have time to read it; so can you spend the next four hours walking me through it?"

F*ck your documentation.

/I just missed Happy Hour
//Now commencing Grumpy Evening

randroid: ITT: a bunch of CS majors still finishing up their gen ed who have no idea how actual engineering firms work.

Did you submit an ECO , and you better be following the accepted ISO standard

AcademGreen: rohar:
Reduce yourself to a simple text editor, ditch the props, and your products will be much more elegant.

I have a healthy respect for text-only documentation. I use it as a way to write documentation quickly and separate content from form; but when I have to collaborate with non-techies or someone new, it's Word and Powerpoint or some kind of PDF made from converting the text-only documentation into something more readable. I also use graphics to show complex relationships or actual data.

I don't think collaboration works when a non-technical collaborator needs to understand and provide feedback on what I'm doing via a single-font, single-weight, single-color, single-flow, text-leveled document. This is also true when my collaborator is new; they need high-level views that text alone cannot provide. Whiteboards are great, but they don't have memory (usually) or the ability for the content on them to be reused (usually) to communicate with others or be stored for others I don't communicate with directly to access.

Documents with links, footnotes, and graphics quickly communicate ideas and allow collaborators new and old to skim for information relavent to them.

Plus, document collaboration I feel is a hell of a lot easier using Word's tools than something like latex or PDF annotations.

/There are plenty who use Word and Powerpoint poorly.
//But they are the standard tools in all but a few niches.
///It doesn't mean they are bad.

Can you explain a temporal relationship including at least 3 relvars graphically? Does font and color help? This is becoming more and more a common construct.

Of course you can't, it's a dimension of data that cannot be communicated graphically. As complexity increases, the ability of graphics to explain it decreases. A mastery of your native language and the ability to promote it verbally/through text is the only way out.

I fear the UI chuckleheads at MS fell for the same joke when designing this UI.

I Like Bread: The other guy I replied to had no trouble parsing what I posted.

The other guy probably doesn't work in Microsoft's PR department.

rohar:
Can you explain a temporal relationship including at least 3 relvars graphically? Does font and color help? This is becoming more and more a common construct.

Of course you can't, it's a dimension of data that cannot be communicated graphically.

So, you use one tool for everything and berate everyone for not using that one tool for everything. Gotcha.

AcademGreen: rohar:
Can you explain a temporal relationship including at least 3 relvars graphically? Does font and color help? This is becoming more and more a common construct.

Of course you can't, it's a dimension of data that cannot be communicated graphically.

So, you use one tool for everything and berate everyone for not using that one tool for everything. Gotcha.

Hey you brought up data and complex relationships. You know a better tool than language and predicate logic? I'll buy it if you do.

/Way to evade the question

MrEricSir: AcademGreen: And promptly not documenting your thoughts to share?

If someone gave me an API doc in Word or Power Point, I'd immediately cancel their contract.

"ITT: a bunch of CS majors still finishing up their gen ed who have no idea how actual engineering firms work."

I've no problem continuing to use Win7. My biggest worry is that two years from now, MS is going to pull a dick move and announcing they're discontinuing support.

poot_rootbeer: "ITT: a bunch of CS majors still finishing up their gen ed who have no idea how actual engineering firms work."

Um, no. Any "actual engineering firm" that shiats out documents with the wrong tools is certainly not doing "actual" work.

MrEricSir: randroid: MrEricSir: AcademGreen: And promptly not documenting your thoughts to share?

If someone gave me an API doc in Word or Power Point, I'd immediately cancel their contract.

Would you prefer it to be written on a napkin?

No, I'd prefer it be documented using one of the many tools designed for the task. If you don't use the right tool for the job, that's a pretty damn good clue that you have no idea what you're doing.

You mean, tools like Word and Excel? Engineers like you are why editors like me have to spend months digging through code and creating documentation from scratch. Thanks for wasting tens of thousands of dollars.

I don't care what field you are working in, you write up what you did and how it affects everything else clearly or you piss off every other employee and get fired for being pointlessly difficult. Most of the time, tables, bullet points, graphs, and/or decision trees are necessary to get the message across succinctly and properly. Sometimes, there is even call for the demon-infested bug-factory of Powerpoint.

I'd love to see how you get across the information you use in coding without tables, which are unsupported even in vi and emacs. Seriously. A pic would be nice - blur out confidential data.

And pretty much everybody at our firm, from lowly tech support, through coders, up to sysadmin and developers, uses multiple screens at the same time. Win8 will just accelerate our switch to an all unix (OSX/Linux) office.

/The sysadmin kept on insisting we get stuck with some variant of OpenOffice, even though it doesn't do most of the things we content creators need.

Subliterati: Jackson Herring: LesserEvil: (with the small problem of not having a "start" button where you used to find all your apps)

Hit the windows button on your keyboard, and type like the first 3 letters of the app you are looking for

And clues and indications leading you to that little tidbit of operational know-how are present where in the UI? Oh yeah... nowhere. You looked that up on the internet when you couldn't find out how and now you're acting like only a dunce could possibly not know that. Pfff...

Vital functions (stupid little things like launching a desktop app, restarting your machine, or using admin tools) are all hidden away in the darkest nooks and crannies but launching sheepleware like facebook is super-farking-easy. Maybe I don't want an OS that doesn't just treat me like an idiot but railroads me into becoming one.

It would also require that the user know what the actual name of the application is.

I'm not sure what the name of the current MS Money app is but the 2006 version is "Microsoft Money 2006"

So if the user wants to find Money he has to type M-I-C and not M-O-N.