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(C|Net)   New production Honda first vehicle to achieve over 100MPG(e)   (reviews.cnet.com) divider line 94
    More: Cool, Honda, Model S, Corporate Average Fuel Economy, gas engines, lithium-ion battery, economy, gas tanks, electric cars  
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8097 clicks; posted to Geek » on 06 Jun 2012 at 10:16 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-06 09:26:35 PM
As if "MPG" weren't complete bullshiat to start with, they have to start with "MPG(e)"?
 
2012-06-06 10:21:26 PM
Bring on the asterixs!
 
2012-06-06 10:25:43 PM
Okay...my TDi "only" gets 50 MPG, but it'll easily go 800 miles on a "charge" instead of a mere 89 miles. Advantage? Volkswagen!
 
2012-06-06 10:27:17 PM
Love the comments on the article. "Who cares if it if efficient, it doesn't look like phallus so I don't want to play with it."

/Mating call of the redneck: It's got a hemi!
 
2012-06-06 10:30:53 PM
For the low, low price of $50,000 you'll definitely see those fuel cost savings....in 2023 perhaps.
 
2012-06-06 10:33:33 PM
I lease a Fit for $200 a month. This leases for $399. You'd better drive a lot to make up that difference.
 
2012-06-06 10:36:28 PM

StoneColdAtheist: Okay...my TDi "only" gets 50 MPG, but it'll easily go 800 miles on a "charge" instead of a mere 89 miles. Advantage? Volkswagen!


Alas, my Honda only gets around 40 or so...

But can pop a wheelie!
 
2012-06-06 10:44:25 PM
 
2012-06-06 10:44:27 PM
My car can get 100+ mpg...going downhill...in neutral
 
2012-06-06 10:45:13 PM

baka-san: StoneColdAtheist: Okay...my TDi "only" gets 50 MPG, but it'll easily go 800 miles on a "charge" instead of a mere 89 miles. Advantage? Volkswagen!

Alas, my Honda only gets around 40 or so...

But can pop a wheelie!


We probably don't wanna discuss the TDI 914 I'm currently involved in.
 
2012-06-06 10:47:46 PM

baka-san: StoneColdAtheist: Okay...my TDi "only" gets 50 MPG, but it'll easily go 800 miles on a "charge" instead of a mere 89 miles. Advantage? Volkswagen!

Alas, my Honda only gets around 40 or so...

But can pop a wheelie!


I hear ya...my RC51 would pop a wheelie for as long as you wished to carry it. And it could get 40 mpg if one babied it.

But who cares!? What I don't get is these companies making electric-only cars with miserable range. Why not throw in a genset, a la the Chevy Volt, so you can actually drive it somewhere? Sheesh...this isn't that hard.
 
2012-06-06 10:49:56 PM

rohar: We probably don't wanna discuss the TDI 914 I'm currently involved in.


Yes...go on. ;^)
 
2012-06-06 10:51:11 PM
Mpg equivalent is total nonsense. An electric car is more efficient in some ways, but you can't really do a conversion. They could make up some equation and say it gets the equalivant of 200mpg and there isn't much of a way to prove it.

I do, however, like the idea of an electric car. But with how I would drive it the effective range would be about half, dropping the MPG(e) to about 50 or so. A good similar sized diesel car would get 60mpg or better in the
same conditions. Untill the real world range is 150 miles or more for electric and the price isn't over double that of a comparable gas car they're just for show.
 
2012-06-06 10:51:42 PM
Didn't we learn our lessons with the HorsePower. Can't we stick what the scientists use in m2 kg/s3. Watt?
 
2012-06-06 11:05:20 PM

StoneColdAtheist: rohar: We probably don't wanna discuss the TDI 914 I'm currently involved in.

Yes...go on. ;^)


Not my build so I don't know ALL the specifics. I know it's a 1.4l TDI out of a Polo against an 012 code 0WW tranny. He pinged me after noticing my 3.6l Audi powered teener. Platform design is awesome, so all the conversion parts I had to fabricate for mine work on his. I'm responsible for the engine/tranny cradle, shifter and peddlebox. The crazy bastard wants to do the rest on his own.

Should hit 50ish MPG and be sexy as hell in an old school kinda way.

/now if we can just figure out how to make a TDI sound like a Type IV
 
2012-06-06 11:12:03 PM

Babwa Wawa: As if "MPG" weren't complete bullshiat to start with, they have to start with "MPG(e)"?

NBSV: Mpg equivalent is total nonsense.


This car is electric-only and consumes 0 gallons of gas, no matter how far you drive. So, it's an infinite number of miles per gallon, hence why they do need to have a calculation there.

What would be preferable, however, is "miles per dollar".
 
2012-06-06 11:17:23 PM
Geez, I'd hope he could do better than 50 mpg. A 914 weighs a thousand pounds less than a Golf or Jetta, and has better aero as well. I should think 80+ mpg is easily attainable, with 100 not out of the question.

Along with the Sprite, the 914 is my favorite conversion platform. Design in simplicity; build in lightness!
 
2012-06-06 11:18:48 PM

way south: Bring on the asterixs!


ok

outcaststudios.com

1.bp.blogspot.com

Kind of an odd request if you ask me.
 
2012-06-06 11:21:22 PM
So MPG is now a bullshiat term just used to show how tiny penised Japanese lose to big American penis?
 
2012-06-06 11:22:51 PM
This is almost relevant to me....

My life revolves around large Banker's Boxes (model 701) and these 16x12x12 bastards

farm8.staticflickr.com

I had to take 13 of them to the UPS depot this morning. About 650 pounds. The Fit is almost large enough to be usable to me. I'd just have to spread things out, more batches but smaller.

As far as distance... I think I could change my routine to keep my purchasing trips to under 80 miles a day, but I'd be worried about distance. Today I kept things short and sweet, but my normal Wednesday route is a 100 mile circuit around Dallas.

/And maybe if the Casinos would build a row of charging stations...
//What's the range when you need AC?
 
2012-06-06 11:23:05 PM
That's nothing. My 1979 GMC pickup gets 200+ MPG(e). I drive it 3 miles, cut the engine off and active GOAP* mode for 195 miles, then turn the engine back on for the last 2 miles.

*Get Out And Push
 
2012-06-06 11:26:01 PM
It's a good thing Caroll Shelby didn't live to see this.
 
2012-06-06 11:31:42 PM

rohar: baka-san: StoneColdAtheist: Okay...my TDi "only" gets 50 MPG, but it'll easily go 800 miles on a "charge" instead of a mere 89 miles. Advantage? Volkswagen!

Alas, my Honda only gets around 40 or so...

But can pop a wheelie!

We probably don't wanna discuss the TDI 914 I'm currently involved in.


I've always wanted to do that or a 924 with a TDI. Have any pics or a link to the build?
 
2012-06-06 11:33:41 PM

StoneColdAtheist: Geez, I'd hope he could do better than 50 mpg. A 914 weighs a thousand pounds less than a Golf or Jetta, and has better aero as well. I should think 80+ mpg is easily attainable, with 100 not out of the question.

Along with the Sprite, the 914 is my favorite conversion platform. Design in simplicity; build in lightness!


I hear ya, but there's a lot of funny variables at play. First, we're dealing with a 2 year old tdi. 2 years is forever given recent advancements. To follow that up, the teener isn't all that light or slippery. After cutting all we can and keeping it street legal, we're still looking at 2200lbs and everything behind the targa acts like a damned parachute.

If that wasn't enough, the goal is to exceed the 2.0 twinspark 6 M471 teener that won LeMans, so starting with an efficient power plant is nice, but we gotta hit some serious performance metrics. We're gonna burn some diesel.

Give us a couple of years with the platform, we'll come up with another 10-20mpg. We're just really early in the process.
 
2012-06-06 11:40:46 PM

dirkfunk: rohar: baka-san: StoneColdAtheist: Okay...my TDi "only" gets 50 MPG, but it'll easily go 800 miles on a "charge" instead of a mere 89 miles. Advantage? Volkswagen!

Alas, my Honda only gets around 40 or so...

But can pop a wheelie!

We probably don't wanna discuss the TDI 914 I'm currently involved in.

I've always wanted to do that or a 924 with a TDI. Have any pics or a link to the build?


Again, not my build, I'm just fabricating parts.

public.bay.livefilestore.com

i910.photobucket.com
 
2012-06-06 11:41:15 PM

Clyde_Suckfinger: For the low, low price of $50,000 you'll definitely see those fuel cost savings....in 2023 perhaps.


Looking at getting a used Grand Cherokee. After doing some math, it would become financially beneficial to buy this Honda only after 20.8 years. So, more like 2033.

/But yay! The environment!
//That massive battery is going to be rotting in a junk yard long before 2033.
 
2012-06-06 11:42:26 PM

smeag0l: Didn't we learn our lessons with the HorsePower. Can't we stick what the scientists use in m2 kg/s3. Watt?


Well I'd frankly be happier if they'd keep it country simple and tell me how many hogsheads per rod per Imperial Ounce that works out to.

/go Metric or go to Hell.
 
2012-06-06 11:42:40 PM
dirkfunk:

Oh and stand by, I recently bought a 944 by accident. There's too many engines in the shop, something bad's gonna happen :)
 
2012-06-06 11:47:49 PM
Here's the thing about autolectrics.

Electromagnetics have been completely figured out. We know how to make an efficient electric motor that doesn't need constant repair, and how to modulate the current to achieve the torque. We're done.

You can take a doped steel body, put one, two, or four motors in it depending on what characteristics you would like, and a small microcontroller can perform the acceleration. Regenerative braking is usually present, but there are disk brakes too and they last longer than in your car because they're used less often and less hard.

Now we get to power. Battery tech is on the edge of being good but it is moving forward. It's not going to get worse. Whatever battery your autolectric ships with can be swapped out at some point in the future with just a winch and maybe a cable adapter. The batteries are going to be chargeable by the wall power in your garage, or possibly your 240v washer/dryer hookup, and they're going to have enough charge to do your daily driving for a dime a day or so.

If you think you need more range, don't worry: everyone else does too. Just add a gas generator exactly like the kind you buy at Sears. Autolectrics will come with them, but they're swappable like the battery. The gens are tuned for supplying the same power the battery does, and to be a bit more ecologically smart, but that's just a tuning issue and this technology has been solved for decades as well.

There are no gaps in the technology. Mankind has solved that side. The issue now is how we transition from the situation we have now to that situation. For that issue I can offer two predictions: one, corner gas stations will become cheap urban parking lots, and two, an enormous amount of money will leave the auto and oil industries, migrating directly into the pockets of drivers that no longer have to guy gas. It would be a fantastic change to American life.
 
2012-06-06 11:47:51 PM
Does that rating take into account the coal burned to charge it up?
 
2012-06-06 11:53:02 PM
Because of:

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: two, an enormous amount of money will leave the auto and oil industries

I predict that:
one, corner gas stations will become cheap urban parking lots
will not happen.
 
2012-06-06 11:54:37 PM
A gas-powered automatic-transmission Fit, which gets 31 miles per gallon, needs to burn 3.2 gallons to travel 100 miles. At the national average price of $3.57 per gallon of gasoline, that's $11.52.

- People drive an average of almost 13,500 miles a year, so a typical driver would spend $445 on electricity for an electric Fit over a year, and $1,552 on gasoline for a regular Fit.

- Honda has valued the price of an electric Fit at $29,125 after a $7,500 federal tax credit. That's $12,210 more than the gas-powered Fit - a savings of $1,107 per year to make up the difference between the electric and the gas-powered version.
 
2012-06-06 11:56:21 PM

rohar: StoneColdAtheist: Geez, I'd hope he could do better than 50 mpg. A 914 weighs a thousand pounds less than a Golf or Jetta, and has better aero as well. I should think 80+ mpg is easily attainable, with 100 not out of the question.

Along with the Sprite, the 914 is my favorite conversion platform. Design in simplicity; build in lightness!

I hear ya, but there's a lot of funny variables at play. First, we're dealing with a 2 year old tdi. 2 years is forever given recent advancements. To follow that up, the teener isn't all that light or slippery. After cutting all we can and keeping it street legal, we're still looking at 2200lbs and everything behind the targa acts like a damned parachute.

If that wasn't enough, the goal is to exceed the 2.0 twinspark 6 M471 teener that won LeMans, so starting with an efficient power plant is nice, but we gotta hit some serious performance metrics. We're gonna burn some diesel.

Give us a couple of years with the platform, we'll come up with another 10-20mpg. We're just really early in the process.


Well, you didn't say you were gonna race it! ;^)

Anywho...the flat-6 2.0 will reliably make a bit over 200 ponies. I've twisted on a bunch of dwiesels, and I just don't see you getting there with the 1.4. Lots'o torque? Sure! Just not gonna make 200 hp.

BTW, your 2200 lbs sounds about right for a water-cooled 1.4 diesel with the good gearbox. That's still 800+ lbs lighter than a TDi, whose rear-half aero isn't much better than a 914's. Yeah, the box has a Kamm-back, but it's still a brick.

Okay, so you're gonna race it. That's different to making an ecomodder, but if you want high mpg at legal speeds, that combo can do it. It's just a different approach.
 
2012-06-06 11:56:38 PM

freidog: It's a good thing Caroll Shelby didn't live to see this.


The nice thing about living in Portland is that you can go down to the local raceway and watch Shelby's cars lose to an electric 1972 Datsun.
 
2012-06-06 11:58:30 PM

Spade: Does that rating take into account the coal burned to charge it up?


Yes.

Any other questions?
 
2012-06-07 12:04:24 AM
At the same time, Honda also gets to claim an EPA-rated range of 82 miles on a single charge...

Aaaaaand we're done.

You can throw all the commuting stats you want at me but I don't want to have to give up air conditioning and headlights to drive to the next town over and back with enough margin for comfort.

As the number of refueling opportunities decreases, the range of your alternative-fuel vehicle needs to increase. A range that's 20% of a standard fuel vehicle just doesn't make sense to me.
 
2012-06-07 12:06:42 AM

StoneColdAtheist: Anywho...the flat-6 2.0 will reliably make a bit over 200 ponies. I've twisted on a bunch of dwiesels, and I just don't see you getting there with the 1.4. Lots'o torque? Sure! Just not gonna make 200 hp.

BTW, your 2200 lbs sounds about right for a water-cooled 1.4 diesel with the good gearbox. That's still 800+ lbs lighter than a TDi, whose rear-half aero isn't much better than a 914's. Yeah, the box has a Kamm-back, but it's still a brick.

Okay, so you're gonna race it. That's different to making an ecomodder, but if you want high mpg at legal speeds, that combo can do it. It's just a different approach.


Ain't that the challenge. My guess is it'll be one hell of an autocross clubman. On the big track it should get interesting. Top end just isn't gonna exist, but it'll come out of the corners like a damned rocketship.

There's no way in hell we're gonna make 200hp. Gotta make up for it in torque. That's a big part of the reason we went with the 0WW tranny. We may end up with an 01x before this is all over.

Just for perspective, the engine came out of a Polo at 2400lbs and only 50mpg. That little toy still goes like snot.

I'm not emotionally invested in the project, but it's fun as hell to work on.
 
2012-06-07 12:10:54 AM
Clyde_Suckfinger: For the low, low price of $50,000 you'll definitely see those fuel cost savings.

I ran some numbers.

Current (paid off) vehicle: probably down to ~20 mpg now
Cost per gallon: $4.399 (premium, california, nuff said)

Cost of new vehicle in same class (IE, what I'm looking at replacing my current with): ~$30k
MPG of new vehicle: ~25 mpg

$50k - $30k = $20k

$20k / $4.4 => 4,545_ gallons of gasoline

I would use ~1 gallon of gasoline per day on my commute to/from work.

So by buying the cheaper gas burning vehicle, I would be able to use the extra dough to buy ~12.45 years worth of gasoline.

// or, you know, I could just keep driving my current car for a while.
 
2012-06-07 12:18:23 AM
My next car will be EV, and will make a nice complement to my truck. A friend dropped by my house today in his EV Nissan LEAF to check out my solar panel installation (he has a PV install at his house to charge his car).
sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net
Driving it is like being in a spaceship. I love it.

Considering I spent $350 in gasoline last month, and now I can get EV fuel for 'free' it may make sense to lease a EV Fit for $389 a month - if gas prices go up.
 
2012-06-07 12:18:57 AM

StoneColdAtheist: Okay...my TDi "only" gets 50 MPG, but it'll easily go 800 miles on a "charge" instead of a mere 89 miles. Advantage? Volkswagen!


Can you fill it up by plugging it into the wall?
 
2012-06-07 12:19:41 AM

rohar: I'm not emotionally invested in the project, but it's fun as hell to work on.


Sounds like fun, indeed, but I guess I don't see the 1.4 angle if the owner isn't looking for extraordinary fuel economy. Too many better autocross engines out there. Anyway, not my problem...gotta hit the rack. G'night!
 
2012-06-07 12:20:52 AM
Also, I've been keeping track of my gas expenditures since 2006 (I make reports for a living, so I'm somewhat analytical).

In total, since June 13th, 2006

I have spent: $10,879.09
Consumed: 3102.09 gallons of gas
Over a period of: 2181 days

Average cost per day: $4.99
Average gallons burned per day: 1.42
Average price per gallon: $3.51

Biggest pain points from the ledger (date | cost per gallon | total purchase | total gallons | days since last fill | notes)

topping off my tank before driving to vegas.
06/11/2010 $3.20 $27.37 8.56 gal 2 days

Filling up again after a getting to vegas (made a side trip to the hoover dam)
06/13/2010 $3.07 $40.00 13.03 gal 2 days Vegas

Filling up before leaving vegas
06/19/2010 $4.00 $40.00 10.00 gal 6 days Vegas

Filling up after getting home from vegas
06/20/2010 $4.00 $53.27 13.32 gal 1 days
--------------------------------------------------------------------- - -----------------------------------------------
And buying gas back in june of 08
06/11/2008 $4.86 $70.00 14.41 gal 12 days

Only to see gas prices drop like a rock through the rest of the year
12/16/2008 $1.92 $29.87 15.57 gal 10 days
 
2012-06-07 12:21:03 AM

StoneColdAtheist: Okay...my TDi "only" gets 50 MPG, but it'll easily go 800 miles on a "charge" instead of a mere 89 miles. Advantage? Volkswagen!


how much does a "charge" cost you though? that 89 mile charge costs...$1.60 at 8 cents per KWH.
 
2012-06-07 12:21:47 AM

Harry_Seldon: StoneColdAtheist: Okay...my TDi "only" gets 50 MPG, but it'll easily go 800 miles on a "charge" instead of a mere 89 miles. Advantage? Volkswagen!

Can you fill it up by plugging it into the wall?


Can an electric run on rancid olive oil? There's a few tons of that available every year in CA. Turns out it's even a manufacturer approved fuel for the TDI. It's even in the owner's manual.

Free > paying for electricity
 
2012-06-07 12:23:57 AM

StoneColdAtheist: rohar: I'm not emotionally invested in the project, but it's fun as hell to work on.

Sounds like fun, indeed, but I guess I don't see the 1.4 angle if the owner isn't looking for extraordinary fuel economy. Too many better autocross engines out there. Anyway, not my problem...gotta hit the rack. G'night!


Sanction issues. Take a 1.4, add the 1.4/1 multiplier for boost, you quickly figure out where he's going. Could rock the sanction, could burn out and never do a damned thing.
 
2012-06-07 12:24:35 AM

rohar: Harry_Seldon: StoneColdAtheist: Okay...my TDi "only" gets 50 MPG, but it'll easily go 800 miles on a "charge" instead of a mere 89 miles. Advantage? Volkswagen!

Can you fill it up by plugging it into the wall?

Can an electric run on rancid olive oil? There's a few tons of that available every year in CA. Turns out it's even a manufacturer approved fuel for the TDI. It's even in the owner's manual.

Free > paying for electricity


Yeah, but the US uses like 12 million barrels of oil a day. I don't thing there's enough olive oil in CA to sustain a nation.

/whar be the fuel cell cars? CNG? options is waht I want.
 
2012-06-07 12:24:37 AM

rohar: Harry_Seldon: StoneColdAtheist: Okay...my TDi "only" gets 50 MPG, but it'll easily go 800 miles on a "charge" instead of a mere 89 miles. Advantage? Volkswagen!

Can you fill it up by plugging it into the wall?

Can an electric run on rancid olive oil? There's a few tons of that available every year in CA. Turns out it's even a manufacturer approved fuel for the TDI. It's even in the owner's manual.

Free > paying for electricity


www.kerrydean.com
 
2012-06-07 12:30:24 AM

MrSteve007: it may make sense to lease a EV Fit for $389 a month


That's a special program that a limited amount of people are going to be able to take part in. Also, according to the Honda website, the total payment over the course of the 2 year lease is 14,000, so you're also putting down a big down payment. Not worth it at all.
 
2012-06-07 12:30:43 AM

jtown: At the same time, Honda also gets to claim an EPA-rated range of 82 miles on a single charge...

Aaaaaand we're done.

You can throw all the commuting stats you want at me but I don't want to have to give up air conditioning and headlights to drive to the next town over and back with enough margin for comfort.

As the number of refueling opportunities decreases, the range of your alternative-fuel vehicle needs to increase. A range that's 20% of a standard fuel vehicle just doesn't make sense to me.


I wasn't impressed with the range but the 3 hour full charge time seemed pretty fast. I have know idea what previous cars/batteries took. With a standard work day, you could commute up to 80 miles to work, recharge, run a bunch of errand during lunch, recharge, commute home 80 miles. Most people don't go 80 miles to work so you would have full charge range to get a lot done to and from work. All you would need is a recharge station at work to get 240 miles a day from it. It looks like they're starting to get practical.
 
2012-06-07 12:30:45 AM

Harry_Seldon: StoneColdAtheist: Okay...my TDi "only" gets 50 MPG, but it'll easily go 800 miles on a "charge" instead of a mere 89 miles. Advantage? Volkswagen!

Can you fill it up by plugging it into the wall?


No, but neither can he. He's just burning his hydrocarbons elsewhere.

But let's go somewhere...say SF to Seattle to visit family. I can make it on one tank (it's just over 800 miles, door-to-door) in 14 hours elapsed time. Average speed? 57 mph. In that Fit you drive 90 miles (best case scenario), then look for a recharge station and sit for three hours. Average speed? Lessee...hour and a half at 60, then 3 hours at zero equals 90/4.5 is 20 mph.

Takes you three days to get to Seattle. In that time I've driven up there, spent a day at the reunion (my usual gig), and returned. And you are just arriving as I get back home. Sorry man, I gotta business to run. I can't be gone for a week. :)

Love the EV for around town. Just not buying one to replace my one road-legal car.
 
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