OK, this ain't a flamewar. Let's pour some gasoline on this baby.

http://www.juancole.com/2003_11_01_juancole_archive.html#106802064823446083

..
In fact, of course, Ronald Reagan bears substantial responsibility for September 11. He and his administration were so gung ho to roll back Communism that they funneled billions of dollars to scruffy far rightwing radical Muslim mujahidin in Pakistan and Afghanistan to fight the Soviets. Orrin Hatch even flew to Beijing for Reagan in 1985 to ask the Chinese to pressure Pakistan to allow the US to provide the Mujahidin with ever more sophisticated weaponry. Even the Pakistani military had initially balked at this crazy idea, knowing who the Gulbuddin Hikmatyars and Usama Bin Ladens really were (unlike clueless Reagan, who called them freedom fighters). But the US twisted the Pakistanis' arms, and they gave in. Likewise, Reagan forced the timid Saudis to match US contributions to the Mujahidin. (And then after Sept. 11 the former Reagan officials who had twisted the arms of the Saudis, like Richard Perle, turned around and blamed Riyadh for spreading radical Muslim ideas!!) It was the CIA that first established terrorist training camps in Pakistan and Afghanistan, to hit the leftist government in Kabul. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the camps used by al-Qaeda had been built originally by the Reagan administration.

Then after the Reagan administration contributed to the destruction of Afghanistan with this proxy war, its successor, the Bush administration, made a deal with the Soviets for a US withdrawal from Afghanistan once the Soviets were gone. The US just walked away, leaving the country in chaos. The right often tries to blame Clinton for this, but it was Bush senior that agreed to the deal and walked away, before Clinton ever got in.

The Christian Coalition and other rightwing religious groups supporting Reagan even had a "biblical checklist" by which they wanted all senators and congressmen to be judged. And one of the items in the "biblical checklist" was "support for the Afghan 'freedom fighters.' The rightwing Christians were saying in the 1980s that if you didn't support al-Qaeda and its Mujahidin allies, you didn't deserve to be in Congress! They wanted representatives tossed out for this crime. And now the same groups are droning on about how the Prophet Muhammad was a terrorist, cashing in on Sept. 11 to spread religious bigotry. But the Prophet Muhammad opposed terrorism. Who promoted al-Qaeda and kindred groups? Jerry Falwell and Ronald Reagan.
..

This thread is just gonna keep going until they greenlight a new post.

Come on you slackers

the article i submitted had a better story and a better headline and it was 2 days ago. well whatever... who cares if she became a p.o.w. what about the other people who became p.o.w.'s and had worse things done to them? do they get a movie? do they get honored when they come back? no..instead some stupid kid from some supplying unit gets captured, her gun jams, and voila...a movie.

Pontechango

You're the well researched, thoughtful, source citing lobe that I wish my brain had.
:D

I trust the pentagon more then I trust her.

Why? because the pentagon NEVER does interviews and book deals.

RobbieFal

"Did they teach math in your school? if so.. check the returns for Bush II v. Gore. Gore beat Clinton too, by a bigger margain."

The funny thing however is that people such as yourself keep forgetting about that pesky little Electoral College thing. Don't try to play the "victim card" please, that cry was old and tired years ago.

That is so cool Chelsea, thanks for the new style of logic. I had thought I was doing badly in our company's football pool

In their second game, OU scored 20 points. Baylor scored 42 points in their 5th game. Pick Baylor to beat OU by the score of 41-17.

RF

AngerRising

I don't feel the steam going out yet.

Oh yeah, and Chelsea Clinton's a farkin tool.

I certainly hope you're not surprised by the behaviour of the traitorous (thanks Ann!) right. Look at how they dragged Joe Wilson through the mud, as soon as he discredited the nuke reports. Look at what the Bush administration has done to Valerie Plame, and by extension the entire CIA. The message is clear:

"If you speak against this administration, we will do everything we can to destroy your name and reputation."

Joe Wilson is hip deep in politics in this one. He is a publicity hound and a lobbyist. He is hardly independent and has had a long running anti-Bush stance (since at least the 2000 South Carolina primary). It was no surprise to me that he endorsed Kerry at the height of the Plame outing flap or that the DNC is using him as their spear head to attack the Bush administration considering that the article had been in circulation for TWO MONTHS before the Kerry campaign... err I mean Wilson decided to make a big deal about it.

Furthermore, just who outed Plame and why is it even important? Everyone is pointing their finger at Karl Rove even though they have no proof. They just state it smells of his scorched earth political tactics. However, Novak points out that even the CIA itself outed Plame when he called in to confirm the story. Furthermore, Plame told various family members/friends about her connection to the CIA. Its funny to me that the CIA would be outraged that Plames identity was exposed when they, themselves confirmed it and their own person apparently has a loose lip.

Finally, It seems awfully inept to send someone like Wilson to look for a connection between Iraq, Nigeria, and uranium in the first place. No Nigerian official in their right mind is going to tell Wilson jack shiat. The guy has always been pretty boastful about his connections to the CIA. I don't see how sending someone like Wilson in is going to reveal anything that the Nigerians didn't want us to know or think in the first place.

So in effect this is another tempest in teapot and gigantic waste of tax payer money. Hurrah. Another lesson in political bullshiatery and the blame game.

Now you guys are criticizing Ronald Reagan for fighting the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in Afghanistan, now I really have seen it all, wow.

*back to foosball*

I am so tired of this girl...

BobTheBuilder: "people such as yourself keep forgetting about that pesky little Electoral College thing. Don't try to play the "victim card" please, that cry was old and tired years ago"

I must have missed someone playing this victim card. The battle started by CarrotTop was simply for number of votes.

BobTheBuilder: "Now you guys are criticizing Ronald Reagan for fighting the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in Afghanistan, now I really have seen it all, wow."

criticizing methods != criticizing goal

Yep, BobTheBuilder wins the "Ultimate Cheap Shot" award for the electoral college jab.

Read the thread first farkwad, or at least the post your target is responding to.

2003-11-09 04:31:23 PM jdave34

Won't allow protests? Tell me about one protest that was forbidden or dissolved because of the "republican gestapo" (one might even call it a "vast, right wing conspiracy")

deSelby

Criticizing methods DOES NOT EQUAL criticizing goal.

I would not put too much faith in mr. foosball to understand "!="

The funny thing however is that people such as yourself keep forgetting about that pesky little Electoral College thing.

That includes Chelsea Whoever..

I'm sure that if he really loved the Electoral College, he'd use it to claim that Reagan and Bush would beat Clinton. Since Reagan got 525 and Clinton got 370.

Chelsea Carrot Top must really hate Ross Perot.

As for forgetting about the electoral college. How can I forget about a system that elects the guy who finished second. Electoral College.. man.. It's the will of the people magnified.

I bet the Iraqis would love the electoral college! It's shown to pick the winner 47 out of 51 times! Where else can you get the choice of the 92% of the time? Rock on Electoral College!

*rolls eyes*

So, what's the great benefit to the electoral college?

RF

Chelsea Clinton Is Carrot Top's Lost Twin, I'm not going to say you are obviously a retarded moron who can't even understand simple logic. The type of guy who neads morons like Hannity to tell them how to think because thinking is too hard a task to undertake themselves. I won't say that. It's mean.

hehehehe... with einsteins like impaler on the democrat's side, it's no wonder the republicans are taking over so easily... impaler reminds me of the type of person the ACLU was using as an example out here in california as a reason why the recall vote couldn't continue... ACLU's reasoning? the democrats were too stupid to figure out how to use a punch card ballot.

that's when i realized the democrats are toast. when the democrat leaders had to argue in florida (butterfly ballot, designed by a democrat btw) and in california (punch card ballot, used for something like 40 years) that democrats are basically stupid.

oh, and Xtremehkr, thank you for proving my earlier excellent (aren't they all?) point. let's recap:

you said: Bush1 rode in on Reagens coat tails and then people found out he sucked, much in the same way Reagen did but without the charisma to pull it off.

i stated earlier than your post: ronald reagan couldn't be voted in for a third time so people overwhelmingly picked Bush I even though he wasn't a strong candidate.

so you see... even when you think you're proving your own point, you're actually proving mine. thanks again.

class dismissed.


2004 presidential election prediction:

gwb: 46 states
dean: 4 states

jdave34

Thank you, thank you. Aside from my family, friends and teachers, I learned a great deal from Phil Agre. You can also browse an archive of his discontinued mailing list.

Wow. I left, hung out at a party for four hours and came back and this conversation has only changed a little.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised...

Chelsea Clinton and Al gore J.r. went to my highschool. Al is awesome, he smokes good herb, and wasn't bad at Lax. Big Al would come to games in cowboy boots, and stumble around. Chelsea was clicky and always had a boyfriend who was over-sensitive/over-achieving.

Ok, Im a newnbie really. What does the TT stand for on the front page? Too damn many to count?

Wow, Jessica Lynch didn't seem to mind all the parades and attention when she got back.

Here's one of the real heroes, PFC Patrick Miller, awarded the Silver Star for the attack on the 507th Maintenance convoy.



The Army release said Miller jumped from his vehicle and began firing on a mortar position that he believed was about to open fire on his convoy.

After he was captured, he was repeatedly questioned about radio frequencies that were written on pieces of paper inside his helmet.

"Thinking on his feet, Pfc. Miller told his captors that they were prices for water pumps," the release said. "Disgusted, the captors threw frequencies and his helmet into the fire."

Miller said Friday that he had read, but could not comment on, a report describing the attack on his unit. The report was leaked this week to the El Paso Times. According to the report, Miller may have killed as many as nine Iraqi fighters before he was captured.

The report also said that human error, stress and fatigue contributed to the attack on the 507th Maintenance Company, the death of 11 U.S. soldiers, and that the 33 soldiers "fought the best they could until there was no longer a means to resist."

It said a navigational error caused the 507th to come under enemy fire and that the ambush lasted 60 to 90 minutes.

Miller was driving with Pfc. Brandon Sloan and Sgt. James Riley when enemy fire struck and killed Sloan and disabled their truck, according to the report.

The report said Miller fired at the Iraqis several times before being surrounded and captured.

As usual, another thread twisted to politics, right wing vs. liberal, etc.

One thing I've learned for certain is that the liberals are much better spellers.

Fulgore243: read and weep

"Brett Bursey, of South Carolina, attended a speech given by the president at the Columbia Metropolitan Airport. He was standing among thousands of other citizens. Bursey held up a sign stating: "No more war for oil."
Bursey did not pose a threat to the president, nor was he located in an area restricted to official personnel. Bursey wasn't blocking a corridor the Secret Service needed to keep clear for security reasons. He was standing among citizens who were enthusiastically greeting Bush. Bursey, however, was the only one holding an anti-Bush sign.
He was ordered to put down his sign or move to a designated protest site more than half a mile away, outside the sight and hearing of the president. Bursey refused. He was then arrested and charged with trespassing by the South Carolina police. "

http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Nov/11092003/commenta/109238.asp

Shall I find more?

Someone in this thread is an ACTUAL mental retard. Can you guess who it is?



If you guessed Chelsea's Cat Carrot Twin Top whatever, YOU ARE CORRECT!!


"muhaha.ahahahahha.hahhaha you democrats make it so eazy ahmwhahahhwahmuahaha mmkay? mwuhahaha"

He's not even conservative, or liberal or anything. He's just way too farking stupid to be classified as anything. He must've been able to survive some INCREDIBLE head trauma, and given access to a computer.

TT (pi) stands for 3.14159... iow, an irrational number of posts.

Chelsea you dumb twat...

Use your own methodology on the value of the U.S. dollar over time without adjusting for inflation and you would say a million bucks today is worth more than a million bucks 10 years because... uh... duh...

Apples and Oranges idiot.

What was the percentage of vote for anyone based on the total votes cast ( not total eligible voter ).

All you demonstrated is the weakness of a democratic system where a plurality of 2 out of 10 eligible voters gives you power when folks don't vote.

Chelsea..whatever, this is the lamest nick ever

Would you like to put some money where your mouth is?

gwb: 46 states
dean: 4 states

What sort of turn-around do you expect in Iraq and in the economy? (I mean, other than the amazing recent recovery of something going up.. even if three private sector jobs were lost since 1/20/01)

Granted, pulling out of Iraq isn't the best idea, but people aren't going to get any more excited about it with all these explosions in Iraq and the general farking around with the Military.

As long as Dean doesn't promise to rise taxes, he has a decent shot. Although who knows how the tide will turn.

no shiat man, the whole story was fabricated from the get-go.

Chelsea was clicky and always had a boyfriend who was over-sensitive/over-achieving.

But, did you have braces too?

A little off topic, but I was just thinking...

You have to assume al-Qaeda reads fark. If I was a smelly little freedom fighter siting in a cave in Pakistan, I'd have to conclude that right now would be the best time to hit America with another 911. I would conclude that if I waited too long, and the presidential election was just around the corner, people would rally around the president and he'd be re-elected. I wouldn't want that.

It's scary how a lot of the posts in this thread look like they could be coming from smelly freedom fighters sitting in a cave in Pakistan .

This whole flamewar is nice and all, but I thought that she couldn't remember what happened in Iraq. Is it coming back to her?

theurge14

Thanks for posting that.
Not to dtract from Lynch's service, but Miller deserves recognition. You provided it.

BobTheBuilder

Now you guys are criticizing Ronald Reagan for fighting the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in Afghanistan, now I really have seen it all, wow.

Yeah. Rock and Roll defeated Communism. Not that two-bit actor.

Just as I was starting to get bored along comes

somefool

"Joe Wilson is hip deep in politics in this one. He is a publicity hound and a lobbyist. "

No he's not. He's a well-respected lifelong civil servant who has been praised by the left and the right.

"He is hardly independent and has had a long running anti-Bush stance (since at least the 2000 South Carolina primary)."

That's precisely why he donated money to the Bush 2000 campaign. I understand now.

"It was no surprise to me that he endorsed Kerry at the height of the Plame outing flap"

I would too if I found out that the Bush administration was exposing my wife and putting her in danger.

"or that the DNC is using him as their spear head to attack the Bush administration considering that the article had been in circulation for TWO MONTHS before the Kerry campaign... err I mean Wilson decided to make a big deal about it."

Actually, it was the CIA that asked that the leak be investigated. Nice try though.

"Furthermore, just who outed Plame and why is it even important?"

Because a CIA undercover operative was EXPOSED for political reasons, by a member of the Bush administration, and thus CIA operations have been seriously compromised. That's why it's important, you apologist jackass. Is it too hard to understand that the White House should not be exposing US spies??????

"Everyone is pointing their finger at Karl Rove even though they have no proof. They just state it smells of his scorched earth political tactics. However, Novak points out that even the CIA itself outed Plame when he called in to confirm the story."

speaking of spear-heads. Here comes Bob Novak. The CIA itself did not out Plame. You are a liar for saying that.

"Furthermore, Plame told various family members/friends about her connection to the CIA."

First I've heard of that.

" Its funny to me that the CIA would be outraged that Plames identity was exposed when they, themselves confirmed it and their own person apparently has a loose lip."

I think you're lying on both these counts, and respectfully ask for proof of both of these.


"Finally, It seems awfully inept to send someone like Wilson to look for a connection between Iraq, Nigeria, and uranium in the first place."

Unless you have his experience, connections, and reputation as a straight shooter.

"No Nigerian official in their right mind is going to tell Wilson jack shiat. The guy has always been pretty boastful about his connections to the CIA."

Since when? I'll bet that you, like I had never heard of him til this happened, and now you say that he's always been pretty boastful. Which social circles do you run in, that you seem to be able to make these judgments?

"I don't see how sending someone like Wilson in is going to reveal anything that the Nigerians didn't want us to know or think in the first place."

I don't see how this has anything to do with the fact that a senior Bush administration official exposed a spy, and thus compromised god knows how many operations.

"So in effect this is another tempest in teapot and gigantic waste of tax payer money. Hurrah. Another lesson in political bullshiatery and the blame game."

You would not believe how angry these words make me. The exposure of a covert operative is about as low and traitorous as you can go. If you don't believe me, ask Bush I. He'll tell you. As far as political bullshiattery, It doesn't get much worse than exposing a spy's identity because you don't like what her husband wrote about the administration.

You sir are a complete asshole for writing what you have. The actions of the person who exposed Valerie Plame are treasonous and criminal. I find it amazing that in your blind and naive devotion to the GOP, you would have the nerve to dismiss the exposure of a secret agent and the compromise of America's covert operations. Actually, it's not naive, it's typical. Republicans have no morals or conscience. They serve and worship the almighty dollar, and will stoop as low as they have to to further their greed.

Chelsea Carrot Top must really hate Ross Perot.

far from it, RobbieFal. if ross perot had not been a part of the election, then perhaps the republicans would not have a majority in just about everything, thanks to clinton (the 2 republicans just voted in as governors was a nice bonus). whatever clinton associates himself with (i.e. mondale, mcbride, davis, the whole midterm elections in general), the republicans win.

i look it as suffering through a short term pain (clinton in office), to be able to get a long term gain. i mean when is the last time the party in office gains seats in a midterm election as the republicans did in 2002?

As for forgetting about the electoral college. How can I forget about a system that elects the guy who finished second. Electoral College.. man.. It's the will of the people magnified.

hhhmm....gwb got more electoral votes and won the presidency. by your "logic", algore should be president because he came in second place in electoral votes. i'm sure you'll be able to provide me where it says in the Constitution that the popular votes elect the president. oh, you can't? mmmmkay... i didn't think so.

2004 presidential election prediction:

gwb: 46 states
dean: 4 states

If you want to really see the story of a hero, not this Lynch junk, watch "60 Minutes" tonight. PFC Miller will be featured.

Fulgore243


2003-11-09 04:31:23 PM jdave34

Won't allow protests? Tell me about one protest that was forbidden or dissolved because of the "republican gestapo" (one might even call it a "vast, right wing conspiracy")

Why don't you read up on "free speech zones". Or find out why Rove and Ashcroft have been subpoenaed?

ReBurninator: It is fascinating how this keeps coming up. Jessica never made that claim. the same people hyping her story made it.

Chelsea..whatever, this is the lamest nick ever

Do you ever discuss the ISSUES or do you just ride the bandwagon where ever it takes you?

gmaki

Well then that clears it up. Got it. Carry on.

You have to assume al-Qaeda reads fark.

Well.. I bet the communists read Fark too.. since both the commies and the Al Qaeda guys are EVERYWHERE

(btw, Hi Osama, you're an asshole!)

If I was a smelly little freedom fighter siting in a cave in Pakistan, I'd have to conclude that right now would be the best time to hit America with another 911.

Um yeah.. if you're using Fark to determine your evil plans, then it's a sign that you suck as a terrorist and you should go back to goatherding.

I would conclude that if I waited too long, and the presidential election was just around the corner, people would rally around the president and he'd be re-elected. I wouldn't want that.

As opposed to attacking now, where people would be rallying around the President.

It's scary how a lot of the posts in this thread look like they could be coming from smelly freedom fighters sitting in a cave in Pakistan

Hey.. people here may be smelly.. but you'd be far off to link them all to terrorists.

RF

We're all gonna f*ckin' die! PNAC would f*ckin' nuke the entire f*ckin world before it surrendered its empire! Americans are sore losers like that!

You have to assume al-Qaeda reads fark.

I've often considered that as well. That's why I only post lies and half-truths in all of my posts. I don't want to do too much of their thinking for them, seeing as these forums are a mecca for high-mindedness.

*tongue-in-cheek

Chelsea Clinton Is Carrot Top's Lost Twin you obviously don't follow poll numbers or recent studies. A study was conducted in the last month that rated the presidents approval rating which was 44% and if they would vote for him and 54% or so would vote for an unnamed democratic candidate instead of GW. The guy isn't gonna win again and i am thankful for that. Also you really have no clue about the last election. Bush was a minority winner, last time that happened was in 1888. If he got a minority amount of votes last time why do you think he will get a majority now?

toraque

I would say the conservative troll's technique is more along the lines of name calling and posting dubious statistics.

Which do you think is more effective (at trolling, of course, not actual debating)?