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(Christian Science Monitor)   █████████ anniversary keeps Chinese censors ██ ████   (csmonitor.com) divider line 87
    More: Sad, Tiananmen, Chinese, Tiananmen Square, Shanghai Composite Index, Chinese censors, censorships  
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7527 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Jun 2012 at 12:56 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-04 03:10:41 PM
yo china we'll take over whenever your ready.
i know you love taking it up the ass
 
2012-06-04 03:11:07 PM

BigNumber12: Mrs.Sharpier: I lol'd

/apparently they are censoring the word "today" today ... they really think their citizens are that stupid.

You laugh, but their efforts are succeeding.


Of course. If you deny people even the language to discuss "counter-revolutionary" thoughts, then subversive discussions cannot even start. The principle was described quite eloquently in 1984, although it would take me a while to dig up the exact quote.
 
2012-06-04 03:17:48 PM

RatOmeter: I don't know if all that holds true with the modern leaders, but intentionally provoking direct conflict with outsiders has not been the Chinese way for a long time. So long that I tend to doubt that it would change within 2 or 3 generations of leaders.


If they perceive that as a way to distract from internal problems and for the current leadership to maintain power and internal order, they may well do such a thing.
 
2012-06-04 03:17:56 PM
When it was happening, I thought the fall of the Berlin Wall and the protests in China heralded a new era of peace and freedom. No really, I did. (I was only in high school at the time.)

Who would've thunk that it heralded the world's elites joining together to horde all the wealth and pit the world's workers against each other in a race for the lowest standard of living.

Oh yeah! *Karl Marx* would've thunk it! But we never heard much about him except that he was the Big Bad.
 
2012-06-04 03:20:04 PM

dittybopper: RatOmeter: I don't know if all that holds true with the modern leaders, but intentionally provoking direct conflict with outsiders has not been the Chinese way for a long time. So long that I tend to doubt that it would change within 2 or 3 generations of leaders.

If they perceive that as a way to distract from internal problems and for the current leadership to maintain power and internal order, they may well do such a thing.


Provoking external armed-conflict as a way to unite people behind the government and distract them from their domestic problems? No, that sounds to absurd to ever happen...
 
rka
2012-06-04 03:28:21 PM

dittybopper: rka: RentalMetard: It seems to me that the Chinese value loyalty, tradition, and obedience very highly (my

In addition, they also value "stability".

And in a country with 1.2 Billion people I can't say I can blame them for not wanting to throw off the obvious shackles and let it all burn.

It's funny, I've asked people originally from China about that, their love for "stability", and they don't really have a good answer for *WHY*. Mind you, these were people who decided to emigrate to the US, but when pressed, they kind of shrug their shoulders and say "because.... Chinese.".


If you look at the history of cultural/social changes in China, the scale of death that accompanies those changes is staggering. China doesn't handle change very well.

We're not talking a few militia-men killed at Concord in the pursuit of independence. We're talking millions.

Its not unwise to praise stability given that context.
 
2012-06-04 03:40:52 PM

This text is now purple: SharkTrager: Tom_Slick: Arkanaut: I don't remember if they claimed if they were volunteered, but I did read that many were executed prisoners who didn't have any family to claim their bodies, which is a dubious claim of another kind.

Either way it doesn't matter to me, I have not gone to it nor will I ever go to it. I can't believe people want to see that, when we have the technology to make models.

Neither will I, and I also advised my ex I would appreciate it if our son didn't go. That exhibition is morally reprehensible.

It's just meat.


It's plastic shaped like meat

/it was also a really cool exhibit
 
2012-06-04 04:06:38 PM
Oh China, what happened to you, man? You used to be cool.
 
2012-06-04 04:11:33 PM

rka: dittybopper: rka: RentalMetard: It seems to me that the Chinese value loyalty, tradition, and obedience very highly (my

In addition, they also value "stability".

And in a country with 1.2 Billion people I can't say I can blame them for not wanting to throw off the obvious shackles and let it all burn.

It's funny, I've asked people originally from China about that, their love for "stability", and they don't really have a good answer for *WHY*. Mind you, these were people who decided to emigrate to the US, but when pressed, they kind of shrug their shoulders and say "because.... Chinese.".

If you look at the history of cultural/social changes in China, the scale of death that accompanies those changes is staggering. China doesn't handle change very well.

We're not talking a few militia-men killed at Concord in the pursuit of independence. We're talking millions.

Its not unwise to praise stability given that context.


We've lost a large percentage of the population at war with ourselves also. Might have heard of it, it was called the "Civil War". We lost roughly 600,000 people at a time when the population of the US was only about 35 million: One out of every 58 people living in the US died in that war.

For China to have the same proportion of loss, they'd have to lose 23 million people through direct violence, disease, and starvation.

Thing is, we've got the mechanisms to mostly deal with that sort of thing now. It's not perfect, by any means, and we still have things like riots, but overall, it works.
 
2012-06-04 04:16:53 PM

Voiceofreason01: This text is now purple: SharkTrager: Tom_Slick: Arkanaut: I don't remember if they claimed if they were volunteered, but I did read that many were executed prisoners who didn't have any family to claim their bodies, which is a dubious claim of another kind.

Either way it doesn't matter to me, I have not gone to it nor will I ever go to it. I can't believe people want to see that, when we have the technology to make models.

Neither will I, and I also advised my ex I would appreciate it if our son didn't go. That exhibition is morally reprehensible.

It's just meat.

It's plastic shaped like meat

/it was also a really cool exhibit


this text is now black! (am i doing it right?)
 
2012-06-04 04:26:25 PM

dittybopper: We've lost a large percentage of the population at war with ourselves also. Might have heard of it, it was called the "Civil War". We lost roughly 600,000 people at a time when the population of the US was only about 35 million: One out of every 58 people living in the US died in that war.


According to Wikipedia, China's population declined by two-thirds during the Three Kingdoms period. At the time, China's population was 56 million.
 
2012-06-04 04:52:03 PM

jshine: BigNumber12: Mrs.Sharpier: I lol'd

/apparently they are censoring the word "today" today ... they really think their citizens are that stupid.

You laugh, but their efforts are succeeding.

Of course. If you deny people even the language to discuss "counter-revolutionary" thoughts, then subversive discussions cannot even start. The principle was described quite eloquently in 1984, although it would take me a while to dig up the exact quote.



No worries - I've read it a number of times. Love it dearly.
 
2012-06-04 04:56:26 PM
RTFA, RTFT. I still have to say that Tank Man is one of the ballsiest motherfuڅkers I ever saw.
 
rka
2012-06-04 05:34:54 PM

dittybopper: We've lost a large percentage of the population at war with ourselves also. Might have heard of it, it was called the "Civil War". We lost roughly 600,000 people at a time when the population of the US was only about 35 million: One out of every 58 people living in the US died in that war


Yep, and you can see all of the major government upheavals we've tried since then. Even we're not that stupid.

dittybopper: For China to have the same proportion of loss, they'd have to lose 23 million people through direct violence, disease, and starvation.


In living memory China has had stuff on that rough scale happen twice. Once in the Cultural Revolution and again in the Great Leap Forward. Various sources place the deaths in the Great Leap Forward alone between 23-42 million.
 
2012-06-04 05:49:14 PM
I hate Communist China

/message sent from my iPhone
 
2012-06-04 05:51:56 PM

dosboot: I hate Communist China

/message sent from my iPhone


Icey, what you did there.
 
2012-06-04 06:12:44 PM
RatOmeter SmartestFunniest 2012-06-04 05:51:56 PM


dosboot: I hate Communist China

/message sent from my iPhone

Icey, what you did there.


Could I say, I hate Communist China, but I do like the products that result from their slave labor?

Seems fair.
 
2012-06-04 07:00:49 PM
i hope you morons don't forget that the chi-com care a very small minority, and that the vast number of ordinary chinese people are very nice. some are kind of dumb, but they are pretty nice, very friendly.
 
2012-06-04 07:28:27 PM

SirEattonHogg: Could I say, I hate Communist China, but I do like the products that result from their slave labor?


Every great empire has been built on the backs of slaves.
 
2012-06-04 07:30:59 PM

Kim Jong-il: TFA is not blocked here in China. Interesting.

And, lots of Chinese born after 1989 know exactly what happened there, especially the university students. They would never talk about it to another Chinese, especially a Party member, but when you get a group of them alone with a foreigner, you find out that they know exactly what happened, and they are mad about it.

Unfortunately, there won't be any sort of positive "revolution" in the near future. Good economy means the CPC is great! Harmonious society and all that jazz.

Unless, the recent downturn turns into a more severe recession. Again, unfortunately, the CPC leaders are actually educated and intelligent (engineers and economists), and not MBAs, which means they might make the correct business and economic decisions.


Their idea of a downturn is economic growth dropping to under 10%.

While their economy is booming the people will be happy enough to leave things as they are. Unless of course the wealth distribution is unequal enough that a large segment of the population are missing out on the spoils.
 
2012-06-04 07:41:35 PM

dittybopper: That's true, and you've got an outlet for them: The People's Liberation Army. What they'd need is someone not so much to blame their problems on per se, but to provide an external enemy to rally people against. Then you can vastly expand the military by drafting all those young men with no possibility of marriage*, and use them pretty much as cannon fodder if necessary.The trick is to find an enemy close by that isn't going to royally piss off the United States if you attack it. That leaves out two of the biggies, Japan and Taiwan. North Korea is out for ideological reasons, unless something changes, and Russia, being a nuclear power, is a non-starter. Likewise for India. I'd look to them getting frisky in southeast Asia, most likely.



Of late, they've actually been increasingly threatening about "defending" supposed mineral rights in the South China Sea.

i.imgur.com
 
2012-06-04 07:51:59 PM

kg2095: Kim Jong-il: TFA is not blocked here in China. Interesting.

And, lots of Chinese born after 1989 know exactly what happened there, especially the university students. They would never talk about it to another Chinese, especially a Party member, but when you get a group of them alone with a foreigner, you find out that they know exactly what happened, and they are mad about it.

Unfortunately, there won't be any sort of positive "revolution" in the near future. Good economy means the CPC is great! Harmonious society and all that jazz.

Unless, the recent downturn turns into a more severe recession. Again, unfortunately, the CPC leaders are actually educated and intelligent (engineers and economists), and not MBAs, which means they might make the correct business and economic decisions.

Their idea of a downturn is economic growth dropping to under 10%.

While their economy is booming the people will be happy enough to leave things as they are. Unless of course the wealth distribution is unequal enough that a large segment of the population are missing out on the spoils.


China's economic growth will probably dip under 10% this year. It'll hard to be otherwise since demand from the EU and US is dwindling to nothingness.

That said, there still won't be any clamoring for revolution. As long as people see hope for a better future (which was in doubt in '89) I'm confident the Chinese Commie Party will be set. A bigger danger is probably infighting within the party. The recent Bo Xilai stuff shows that it's still possible for a single person to grab a lot of power and turn corrupt. The CPC was pretty worried that his influence with high levels of the PLA could lead to some problems. So far probably disaster averted... well since he's in prison.

The transition of power later this year should be interesting. It'll probably be status quo. Some more slowing of growth and trying to boost internal demand.

/these views are my own
 
2012-06-04 09:29:08 PM

RentalMetard: My roommate is Chinese. His mother is a competent physician and by all accounts an intelligent woman in her mid 50s. They have only one channel on their cable subscription: the official Chinese news network. Even with unfettered internet access, she and her husband trust what the news tells them. It seems to me that the Chinese value loyalty, tradition, and obedience very highly (my roommate opts for her 'traditional' fixes most of the time even though he studies medicine and can find no compelling evidence for their efficacy...and sometimes evidence against it). It seems to me that that combination of values yields a small chance of a revolution. The desires of young people in Chinese culture have always been subjugated by the will of their elders.


Are you sure she's intelligent? She sounds like she should have a variation on your user name.

You don't need to be exceptionally intelligent to gain tertiary qualifications or even to be a doctor. You just need to be a good student.
 
2012-06-04 09:42:03 PM
I don't get why the Chinese work so hard to censor the Battle of Midway.
 
2012-06-04 10:14:33 PM

kg2095: RentalMetard: My roommate is Chinese. His mother is a competent physician and by all accounts an intelligent woman in her mid 50s. They have only one channel on their cable subscription: the official Chinese news network. Even with unfettered internet access, she and her husband trust what the news tells them. It seems to me that the Chinese value loyalty, tradition, and obedience very highly (my roommate opts for her 'traditional' fixes most of the time even though he studies medicine and can find no compelling evidence for their efficacy...and sometimes evidence against it). It seems to me that that combination of values yields a small chance of a revolution. The desires of young people in Chinese culture have always been subjugated by the will of their elders.

Are you sure she's intelligent? She sounds like she should have a variation on your user name.

You don't need to be exceptionally intelligent to gain tertiary qualifications or even to be a doctor. You just need to be a good student.


Neil deGrasse Tyson on doctors
 
2012-06-04 11:08:06 PM
Fark you, China, and the knockoff Jaguar, Buick, or Audi your Premier rode in on. To think of it, your country has already farked up Buick(a favored brand by the US) by transforming most of its cars to Chinese designed 4banger Opels. That, and Chinese influence has also done the same to IBM's former PC division via Lenovo - where the once high-quality Thinkpad product suffers from lingchi, a slow death by a thousand cuts. Never mind the consequences of the US government appeasing the PRC, instead of considering China's government as bad as the USSR or as contemptous towards/harmful to US citizens as Al Qaeda.

The Tiananmen Square Massacre happened, and no amount of censorship will change the fact that you brought in a lot of country boys to get rid of some problem called freedom being practiced in the city. That and the scripted reply of "you don't understand" just reflects on how well the regular Chinese dont understand June 6th 1989 even if there is evidence to the contrary - even if the US coverage includes the favorable-to-US and unfavorable information about what happened.

At least I can openly ridicule political leaders in the US without wondering if I'll disappear. I can openly ridicule my state's governor (Kasich) for being horribly incompetent and his fellow Wisconsin peer(may he lose in the recall, and/or have his changes undone when his regime finally does depart) for their lack of conservative(less laws, government being hands-off) values.

That, and I can go anywhere for work or pleasure without worry of not having an internal passport. In China, you have the hukou system, which restricts the movement of their people to find work.
 
2012-06-04 11:35:38 PM

noblewolf: This shiat frustrates me... Makes me want to take out the Chinese Govt. I know its improbable, but I just hate the oppression of people, either by the Govt, or religion. And no one will do shiat cause everything is made in China.

///GGGrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


THIS.

You're not alone in that desire. There would be more than a few good citizens in US that would have no problem aiding and abetting fellow citizens in that task.
 
2012-06-05 01:18:41 AM
I'm reading this from behind a VPN in Beijing so I'm getting a kick. I went to the square last weekend, decided it was best to steer clear on the 4th, so I marked it by getting ridiculously lost in that temple of capitalism that is the luxury China World mall.
 
2012-06-05 02:32:19 AM
NO VPN here needed. Actually Very surprised the net is moving as smoothly as it is.

And yes us Laowai will never understand China.

Let China do it's thing, let's worry about our own backyard first.
 
2012-06-05 02:53:12 AM

AuralArgument: NO VPN here needed. Actually Very surprised the net is moving as smoothly as it is.

And yes us Laowai will never understand China.

Let China do it's thing, let's worry about our own backyard first.


I'm paranoid enough about my Internet use in the US, there's no way I'm reading about sensitive news stories without a VPN.
 
2012-06-05 08:32:05 AM
I taught English in Shanghai and one of the teachers in the local state school asked me what had happened in Tienanmen Square.

I started to say, "Well there were some protests" when she interrupted with, "NO! Nothing happened, you have been lied to by the Western governments..."

Scary shiat.

/about 8 years ago
 
2012-06-05 09:16:16 AM

Pert: I taught English in Shanghai and one of the teachers in the local state school asked me what had happened in Tienanmen Square.

I started to say, "Well there were some protests" when she interrupted with, "NO! Nothing happened, you have been lied to by the Western governments..."

Scary shiat.

/about 8 years ago


www.pfchangshomemenu.com
 
2012-06-05 11:19:30 AM

Pert: I taught English in Shanghai and one of the teachers in the local state school asked me what had happened in Tienanmen Square.

I started to say, "Well there were some protests" when she interrupted with, "NO! Nothing happened, you have been lied to by the Western governments..."

Scary shiat.

/about 8 years ago



Yep. Now imagine 1,000,000,000 people like that.
 
2012-06-05 12:57:33 PM

Pert: I taught English in Shanghai and one of the teachers in the local state school asked me what had happened in Tienanmen Square.

I started to say, "Well there were some protests" when she interrupted with, "NO! Nothing happened, you have been lied to by the Western governments..."

Scary shiat.

/about 8 years ago



The fact that she asked you may indicate she was genuinely interested in finding out -- but she then had to immediately cover herself in case you were an informant.
 
2012-06-05 05:18:44 PM
So, if you want China to be a democracy with the same freedoms that Americans value, it already exists: it's called the Republic of China, and it currently governs the island of Taiwan. Based on all the anti-China talk in this thread, I trust that we'll be able to count on American support for an invasion to retake the mainland and liberate the oppressed populace currently toiling under communist rule?
 
rka
2012-06-05 05:59:16 PM

FireZs: So, if you want China to be a democracy with the same freedoms that Americans value, it already exists: it's called the Republic of China, and it currently governs the island of Taiwan. Based on all the anti-China talk in this thread, I trust that we'll be able to count on American support for an invasion to retake the mainland and liberate the oppressed populace currently toiling under communist rule?


Only if it is led by the European Union.
 
2012-06-07 08:20:51 AM

AuralArgument: And yes the United States and that [foreign term] do understand China. Even better than the Chinese understand themselves.

FTFY.

Unless it's on the Chinese official scripted list of responses, you're likely to get disappeared.



Let China do it's thing, let's worry about our own backyard first.

Not an option. Especially when they are threatening the United States.
 
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