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(AlterNet)   "Good News" clubs teach children in public schools the Biblical importance of killing all nonbelievers   (blogs.alternet.org) divider line 110
    More: Asinine, Bibles, elementary schools, New Apostolic Reformation, youth pastor, Second American Revolution, eastern religions, Islamic fundamentalists, Child Evangelism Fellowship  
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14551 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Jun 2012 at 11:41 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-06-03 09:37:44 PM  
11 votes:
It should be considered child abuse to force religion on children.

If someone is so bugfark nuts to want to believe in fairy tales once they reach adulthood, that's their business. But to poison the minds of impressionable children with this crap and turn them into hatemongers and terrorists based on a millennium old book of fairy tales is despicable, and should be seen as a reason to have the children removed from the care of the irresponsible individuals brainwashing them.

/religion is a mental illness.
2012-06-03 10:39:11 PM  
5 votes:
The stupid is strong in this thread.
2012-06-03 09:55:31 PM  
5 votes:

Bevets: "Good News" clubs teach children in public schools the Biblical importance of killing all non believers

This headline is full of fail. 1) For the Secular Fundamentalist: these clubs are not held during school hours. They are held after hours when the general public has access to public schools. 2) Christians have been around for nearly two thousand years and have not engaged in genocide.


Fun fact: the vast majority of Germans in the 1930s and 40s were devout Christians!
Fun fact: The pogroms that frequently occurred throughout Russian history were carried out by Christians
Fun fact: Christians intentionally slaughtered untold thousands of indigenous Americans with the blessing of the Church.
etc
etc
etc...
2012-06-03 09:32:30 PM  
5 votes:

Bevets: 2) Christians have been around for nearly two thousand years and have not engaged in genocide.


History isn't your strong suit is it?
2012-06-03 08:19:44 PM  
5 votes:

Because People in power are Stupid: So? What ancient religion (that hasn't been destroyed by other religions and then "resurrected" by those who weren't privy to the original beliefs) hasn't preached that it's okay to kill non believers? It seems that Judaism, Christianity (at least through inheritance) and Islam all suffer from this affliction.


Well that makes it OK then!
2012-06-03 11:43:21 PM  
4 votes:
I am a Good News Club volunteer.
If followed correctly, it is simply church for children. They have a meal, sing bible songs, have a basic bible lesson (like the Good Samaritan), play games for small prizes, memorize a bible verse, and have a story about a missionary.

In no way, shape, or form should there be anything else going on. It is no different than traditonal Vacation Bible School or Sunday School.

I see that the article is talking about a lesson in next year's plan, which I have not seen and can't comment on it's accuracy.

Just because some Christians are crazy and fanatical doesn't mean every Christian is crazy and fanatical.

I did not convert to Christianity until I was 30 years old. I have been on both sides of the fence and both sides have ridiculous assumptions about the other.

The most amazing part of the Good News Club for me is that I know for alot of kids, the meal we serve them is the only decent food they will get for the rest of the day and sometimes the praise and attention we give is all they will get outside of the classroom. Sometimes including the classroom.

These children are not forced to go to club. It is a completely voluntary club. Parents sign permission slips. If you have any earnest questions about my experience with the Good News Club , EIP.

I'm not trying to change any one person's opinion. I just wanted to share my experience.
2012-06-03 11:14:22 PM  
4 votes:

Bevets: Christians have been around for nearly two thousand years and have not engaged in genocide.


Trail of Tears mean anything to you you ignorant f*ckstick?
2012-06-03 10:44:41 PM  
4 votes:

Because People in power are Stupid:
Who cares what religious people do?



Those of us who have to suffer what they do.
2012-06-03 08:16:44 PM  
4 votes:
This must be a new definition of the word "good" of which I was previously unaware.
2012-06-03 11:49:36 PM  
3 votes:

sharpiegreed: If followed correctly, it is simply church for children. They have a meal, sing bible songs, have a basic bible lesson (like the Good Samaritan), play games for small prizes, memorize a bible verse, and have a story about a missionary.


Why does this need to happen at a school, again?
2012-06-03 09:34:34 PM  
3 votes:

Bevets: "Good News" clubs teach children in public schools the Biblical importance of killing all non believers

This headline is full of fail. 1) For the Secular Fundamentalist: these clubs are not held during school hours. They are held after hours when the general public has access to public schools. 2) Christians have been around for nearly two thousand years and have not engaged in genocide.


Look, I'm as much a Christian as anyone, but surely no self-respecting Christian would totally forget the Crusades. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Rwandans of the 90s were generally Christians, and yet committed genocide on each other.

Yes, it is condemned by the Bible, but don't pretend it hasn't been done.
2012-06-03 08:24:59 PM  
3 votes:
Of course they do. Children start thinking logically around age 8. If you don't get them indoctrinated while they're young, you'll lose them.
2012-06-03 08:14:44 PM  
3 votes:
So whose going to break the news to them that the Amelikites were already wiped out?
2012-06-04 10:32:28 AM  
2 votes:

sharpiegreed: I am a Good News Club volunteer.
If followed correctly, it is simply church for children. They have a meal, sing bible songs, have a basic bible lesson (like the Good Samaritan), play games for small prizes, memorize a bible verse, and have a story about a missionary.

In no way, shape, or form should there be anything else going on. It is no different than traditonal Vacation Bible School or Sunday School.

I see that the article is talking about a lesson in next year's plan, which I have not seen and can't comment on it's accuracy.

Just because some Christians are crazy and fanatical doesn't mean every Christian is crazy and fanatical.

I did not convert to Christianity until I was 30 years old. I have been on both sides of the fence and both sides have ridiculous assumptions about the other.

The most amazing part of the Good News Club for me is that I know for alot of kids, the meal we serve them is the only decent food they will get for the rest of the day and sometimes the praise and attention we give is all they will get outside of the classroom. Sometimes including the classroom.

These children are not forced to go to club. It is a completely voluntary club. Parents sign permission slips. If you have any earnest questions about my experience with the Good News Club , EIP.

I'm not trying to change any one person's opinion. I just wanted to share my experience.


You are in denial of what your superiors intentions are. It's ok, lots of people let themselves be willingly ignorant.

The hierarchy of your church plays outright footsie with rightwing politicians meaning YOU as a well meaning volunteer, are part of that political apparatus that is tearing our country apart. It is the disintigration between the church and the state that soils the soul of the church. Keep it up and be ready for either a tax bill or a FEC filing requirement as a political organization.

Oh and by the way, when your church advocates the killing of MY SON who does not believe in YOUR FAIRYTALE you'd better believe I have a beef with it. If you Christians want acceptance from the rest of us, stop trying to legislate behavior according to your interpretation of a millenniums old second hand account of what your imaginary friend said.
2012-06-04 05:33:56 AM  
2 votes:

BronyMedic: Which is not an assertion based on evidence or scientific research.


And yet your own citation says that atheists do have higher IQ's and the religious "rely on ancient, pre-rational, supernatural and wishful thinking."

I'll take the Christian Evangelical, Prosperity, and Dominionist movement for 900, Alex.

And the Pew report says that evangelicals comprise 26.3% of religious believers in America, "historically black" churches comprise 6.9%, catholics 23.9%, and mormons 1.7%. All of these groups believe in one or more of the movements you mention and are actively working to do the things you mention as unacceptable to you when it comes to religious people.

This leaves ~24% of religious believers in America that can be considered moderate or mainline churches, so I think we can safely say the majority of religious people in America are actively hindering the advancement of mankind, or at the very least doing nothing to stop it.
2012-06-04 02:31:35 AM  
2 votes:

BronyMedic:
Except that when one does something that would be considered against Christian doctrine


Considered against christian doctrine by who? Who gets to decide what constitutes christian doctrine? Because as far as I know there are thousands of sects of christianity that all have their own opinions on that.

Each sect has their own definition of "Christian" that agrees with their own beliefs about the nature of Jesus, God, church tradition, written text, evolved theology, the cultures in which they are implanted, etc. There appears to be no way to compromise on a single definition that is acceptable to all

Because of this, apologists like you can claim anyone doing anything you don't agree with to be not a "real christian"
2012-06-04 02:06:04 AM  
2 votes:

BronyMedic: But of course, they're also representative of the entirety of Christiandom!

Pointing out Logical fallacies...you're doing them wrong...


The only reason the "no true scotsman" fallacy may not apply is that there are as many definitions of what it is to be a christian as there are christians.
Religious apologists are experts at moving the goal posts and being deliberately vague on what exactly constitutes a "real christian"


But I'm sure Torquemada wasn't a "real christian" either right?
2012-06-04 01:50:41 AM  
2 votes:
images.sodahead.com
2012-06-04 01:46:06 AM  
2 votes:
Glad to see the "no true christian" brigade alive and well on fark.

Anyone can be baptized a christian, attend church regularly, be quoted again and again as saying they're christian, use christian symbols, but as soon as they do any act that makes christianity look bad , they're not a real christian!
2012-06-04 12:48:11 AM  
2 votes:

brap: So whose going to break the news to them that the Amelikites were already wiped out?


Don't be such a bible literalist. The Amalakites are a complex metaphor for whatever is suitable to the reader at the time.

You know, like the rest of the bible.
2012-06-04 12:39:42 AM  
2 votes:

germ78: So this all knowing and all powerful god has to farm his dirty work out to his true believers, instead of meting out the punishment himself.


What do you mean? He killed everyone in the world except for one family in a boat. He killed people for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. He killed the guy who tried to stop the Ark of the Covenant from falling to the ground. He sent bears to kill 40 children who laughed at a bald man.

Oh, don't worry. He's a stone-cold killer.
2012-06-04 12:21:23 AM  
2 votes:

Bevets: 2) Christians have been around for nearly two thousand years and have not engaged in genocide.


Tell that to these folks:

espressostalinist.files.wordpress.com

I'm sure all those passages in the Bible where God said it was okay to murder every man, woman, and child who lived in the land promised to the Hebrews had NO influence on the various groups of Christians who saw the Americas as their new "promised land".
2012-06-04 12:17:48 AM  
2 votes:
My solution, not necessarily final:

i169.photobucket.com
2012-06-04 12:01:33 AM  
2 votes:
You better enjoy here while you're here because there's no here there.
2012-06-03 11:35:11 PM  
2 votes:

brap: Take it down a notch with the namecalling, you bloviating hoagie-biting mansandwich


Alright. Now that the gauntlet has been thrown down, we shall now officially set the rules for the thread.
i.imgur.com
2012-06-03 11:33:29 PM  
2 votes:
You know who else liked to kill people that didn't agree with them?

static.bbc.co.uk

4.bp.blogspot.com

1.bp.blogspot.com
2012-06-03 11:14:34 PM  
2 votes:
FTFA: "The Amalekites had heard about Israel's true and living God many years before, but they refused to believe in him. The Amalekites refused to believe in God and God had promised punishment."

So this all knowing and all powerful god has to farm his dirty work out to his true believers, instead of meting out the punishment himself. Personally, I would be more willing to believe in a god that shows his face once in a while and takes care of his own business, instead of having his lackeys finish the job.

/what a little biatch
2012-06-03 11:11:27 PM  
2 votes:

A Non Amos: Scientific method

Radiocarbon datingNotice the need for calibration.

Please explainby present (known) processes.

Absolute: science doesn't know anything precisely is invalid. Science is a useful tool to explain many phenomena of the natural world.

What the scientific method cannot be applied to, and what cannot be studied at present, must be guessed at, thus making it a philosophy.

Refutations?


Scientific method is this: some one comes up with an explination for something. This is called hypothesis. They set up something to test this: if it is successful then they come up with a theory.

Other scientist recreate said test. Sometimes the results don't match, sometimes it's inconclusive. Often times, theories are given, and some evidence can be found decades later.

Some things- such as Newton laws- do not work on a sub atomic level- hence quantum physics.

That is science. Our understanding is known only what we can observe and replicate now. We can discover... And still discover new ways to observe with new technology. People centuries ago had no formal concepts of atoms-but there were some guesses and insights that were road signs.

Take religion: Christian bible has been the most heavily edited religious in existence. Prophesies of the old testament are misquoted and twisted to fit the needs of the churches of Jesus. Events of the bible cannot be replicated nor observed. For the One True Religion, there are awful lot of sects.

The different sects of sience (engineering, math physics) let mankind leave the earth. The different religious sects gave us some nice looking buildings, art and music. But you didn't need any particular god to achieve that.

As far as recalibration- I believe it may have to do with contamination and degradation one something is unearth from being sealed in the ground. I'm not an expert on carbon dating. Somebody scientific knows on FARK.

Philosophy is a science- but not all science is a philosophy. Religion does give a guide to living life. Mathematics will just give you an answer- not a moral decision.

And don't ask me about Canada-I think it's mythological ;)

/by the way- my theory is that religion was mankinds first step into sciences. Astronomy is a descendant of astrology, chemistry is the grandchild of alchemy. But we had to crawl befor we walked. The question is- are we ready to fly.
2012-06-03 10:54:55 PM  
2 votes:
At the core of Doner's book are two chapters devoted to Sarah Palin and the New Apostolic Reformation - possibly the most radical, and perhaps the fastest growing, segment of American evangelicalism - a faction of "Neo-Fundamentalism" so politically and ideologically extreme that Doner worries its leaders might trigger a second American civil war.

Go for it, assholes. Please. I beg you. Start some shiat. Because the moment you fire the first shot at me, I then have a very good reason to set aside my general pacifism. And i promise you, I will make it more your problem than mine.

/Saiga - godless communism FTW!
2012-06-03 10:20:26 PM  
2 votes:
As Christians aren't they supposed to be follow the New Covenant, the one with Christ, the one that advocate peace, love and forgiveness as the path to eternal life and teaching this message to the youth and non-believers.

The Old Testament is supposed to be a reminder of what the "chosen ones" had to go though in order to be worthy of the New Covenant.
2012-06-03 09:52:32 PM  
2 votes:

FirstNationalBastard: It should be considered child abuse to force religion on children.

If someone is so bugfark nuts to want to believe in fairy tales once they reach adulthood, that's their business. But to poison the minds of impressionable children with this crap and turn them into hatemongers and terrorists based on a millennium old book of fairy tales is despicable, and should be seen as a reason to have the children removed from the care of the irresponsible individuals brainwashing them.

/religion is a mental illness.


I agree with this statement.
2012-06-03 09:34:53 PM  
2 votes:

Bevets: "Good News" clubs teach children in public schools the Biblical importance of killing all non believers

This headline is full of fail. 1) For the Secular Fundamentalist: these clubs are not held during school hours. They are held after hours when the general public has access to public schools. 2) Christians have been around for nearly two thousand years and have not engaged in genocide.


That's the problem when your history Alphas and Omegas with the Bible: you end up looking quite ignorant.

Christians are well known for their convert or die attitude and actions. Protestants were just as bad as Catholics.
2012-06-03 09:31:34 PM  
2 votes:

MaudlinMutantMollusk: This thread is a Godwin waiting to happen

/is that a Godwin in itself?


Bevets: Christians have been around for nearly two thousand years and have not engaged in genocide.


And there it is, brought to you by the original worthless troll-bot.
2012-06-03 08:33:05 PM  
2 votes:
Well, it's only fair, given all the atheist and agnostic organizations that teach their children to kill Christians.

Right?

Because radical atheists are much worse than radical Christians.

Right?
2012-06-04 03:50:05 PM  
1 votes:

sharpiegreed: I am a Good News Club volunteer.
If followed correctly, it is simply church for children.


So you're holding "church for children" inside their taxpayer-financed public schools? Yeah, I have a problem with this.

I see that the article is talking about a lesson in next year's plan, which I have not seen and can't comment on it's accuracy.

Would it make a difference to you if it was true?

The most amazing part of the Good News Club for me is that I know for alot of kids, the meal we serve them is the only decent food they will get for the rest of the day and sometimes the praise and attention we give is all they will get outside of the classroom. Sometimes including the classroom.

So you think preying on the vulnerable and hungry is "amazing"? Wowz. Why not feed the hungry children...without indoctrinating them into your religious fantasies?

These children are not forced to go to club. It is a completely voluntary club. Parents sign permission slips.

So parents can't force kids into this crap? If Junior told you his mom made him attend your brainwashing sessions, as a principled person, you'd permit Junior to sit in a different room and play video games for the duration?

I'm not trying to change any one person's opinion. I just wanted to share my experience.

Without a trace of irony. Ugh.
2012-06-04 02:58:01 PM  
1 votes:

WhyteRaven74: the parable of the good Samaritan [is] not just about being nice to strangers, in the context of its day it was as radical as anything Malcolm X ever imagined saying. It was a declaration against xenophobia...


I'm not saying you're wrong, but I read the parable as even beyond that.

The GS parable was told in answer to a religious lawyer who asked Jesus what defined a "neighbor" in the context of his teaching to "love your neighbor as yourself."

The Samaritans were and are Jewish heretics, required by Jewish law to be ostracized and shunned. (The reason for the schism? A disagreement over which mountain was the site of the burning bush. Seriously.)

I reckon that if Jesus were alive today, to make the same point he'd cast the parable as an injured Christian who is ignored by a passing Pastor and a Bishop, but finally helped by a lesbian atheist who takes him to a hospital and pays his bill.

And he would tell this parable in front of the most hardcore homophobic fundamentalists.

This, of course, would infuriate the religious hypocrites.

Again.

LOL.
2012-06-04 02:32:09 PM  
1 votes:
Grain o' salt: It's Alternet.
Nice how they didn't bother to interview anyone from Child Evangelism Fellowship, or anyone from the Christian community at large, instead opting to use only quotes from people sharing their decidedly anti-Christian views. Meh.
2012-06-04 01:04:09 PM  
1 votes:

Bevets: "Good News" clubs teach children in public schools the Biblical importance of killing all non believers

This headline is full of fail. 1) For the Secular Fundamentalist: these clubs are not held during school hours. They are held after hours when the general public has access to public schools. 2) Christians have been around for nearly two thousand years and have not engaged in genocide.


Um, Bevets, this is a group advocating to small children genocide. Exactly how can this be anything less than disgusting to you?

Unless you aren't a Christian, of course.
2012-06-04 12:10:46 PM  
1 votes:

Mad_Radhu: Bevets: 2) Christians have been around for nearly two thousand years and have not engaged in genocide.

Tell that to these folks:

[espressostalinist.files.wordpress.com image 575x446]

I'm sure all those passages in the Bible where God said it was okay to murder every man, woman, and child who lived in the land promised to the Hebrews had NO influence on the various groups of Christians who saw the Americas as their new "promised land".


You do realize that some 90% of the Native Americans were killed by disease before the Europeans started colonizing the Americas? That a lot of our government is based on ideas they provided? That the pilgrims survived because one of the natives caught a ship back home and realized that his how town had died of disease while he was away, so he taught the pilgrims how to make the town work?

History is fun. Trusting schools to get it right isn't.
2012-06-04 10:58:38 AM  
1 votes:

meanmutton: Lionel Mandrake: Well, it's only fair, given all the atheist and agnostic organizations that teach their children to kill Christians.

Right?

Because radical atheists are much worse than radical Christians.

Right?

You know, when you are willfully ignorant of things that happened less than 100 years ago, you're discrediting all of us atheists.

Do a little reading and see how Pol Pot dealt with religious practitioners and learn about Mao Zedong's Four Olds campaign or the USSR Anti-Religous Campaigns.

Radical atheists slaughtered millions attempting to instill government-forced atheism in the 20th century. Trying to paint all Christians with the genocide brush because of acts that took place hundreds of years ago makes even less sense than trying to paint all atheists with the genocide brush because of acts that took place a few decades ago.


Just as a note--Pol Pot's regime, Maoist "revolutionary" groups, and Stalinist (and Stalinist-like) groups are actually regarded in the very same category as Jesus Campers promoting "kill the unbelievers"--as de facto coercive religious groups.

(In fact, arguably Maoist and especially Kim-ist/juche-ist groups during the Korean War and afterwards tend to be considered the prototypical example of abusive coercive groups; the term "brainwashing" actually came into the English lexicon through a mistranslation of "thought reform", which is the term the Chinese and Koreans used for coercive tactics in maintenance of their groups and the term now used broadly for coercive tactics systems.)

Specifically, the various "Communist" groups you mention would be defined as classic parareligious "Personality cults" where a leader is near-deified (in the case of the Juche cult in North Korea, this has evolved into a frank coercive religious group proper where the Kim dynasty are deified as god-emperors)--in other words, these act more as functional "state religions" centered around a Great Leader, but otherwise pretty much operate the same as Scientology or the Moonies (just with a LOT more guns and a higher likelihood of causing some serious damage to apostates).

And for the record--yes, Jesus Campers (of the sort who promote this stuff) are considered coercive religious groups too (particularly in Australia, where there's been a lot of public awareness thanks to the political wing of the Assemblies of God known as Family First there); Al Quaida and the Taliban are actually considered coercive religious groups to boot (specifically, as Wahhabist "Quran-based" coercive religious groups); there's even been a VERY good argument that the Nazi Party as it operated in Germany from 1933-1945 constituted a personality cult-type coercive religious group that attempted to evolve into a frank religionationalist coercive religious group (evidence of the latter being from the effective official steeplejacking of Christian churches during Nazi rule thus leading to the Confessing Church movement and a certain quote by a certain Niemoller when he was interned in a concentration camp for being a member of the Confessing Church movement).

/seriously, some very farked-up things make more sense when you see it less as a milquetoast "missionary" movement or political movement and look at it more as a coercive religious group
//I'm actually surprised someone has not done a "coerciveness test" of the modern GOP in the same way as has been done with other personality cults or coercive religious groups, because more and more it IS starting to develop some warning signs of coerciveness
///this well could be because the GOP HAS been functionally steeplejacked and turned into the de facto political wing of a coercive religious movement, though
2012-06-04 08:51:56 AM  
1 votes:
I might add, that if the club is kicked out advocating illegal killings then if they choose to bring it to court then it will just bring a lot of attention to the barbaric passages in the Bible. They should be careful what they wish for. Indeed they might just turn off a lot of kids.
2012-06-04 08:47:14 AM  
1 votes:
If a private group wants host a voluntary after-school activity for students, then whether or not it is religious is irrelevant. It must be accorded space by the exact same rules as other organization.

Have all the religious clubs you want so long as the chess club, the D&D club, etc. can also meet on the same terms.

However if they go ahead and teach kids that it is okay to kill then they have violated the rules -- I am quite sure that advocating illegal activity is a violation of the rules. Thus it becomes legit to subject them to the same penalty as anyone else.
2012-06-04 07:07:46 AM  
1 votes:
up-ship.com
/oh noes -- teh christians are going to kill us all.
2012-06-04 04:58:32 AM  
1 votes:
Kali-Yuga: No, but statistically speaking, being brilliant means you're probably not very likely to fall victim to the god delusion. There's a reason why the groups with the highest incidence rates of religious belief include the uneducated and those with below average IQ's. Most believers aren't even capable of understanding their own religious texts let alone the writings of someone like Hume or Sartre.

Which is not an assertion based on evidence or scientific research.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289608001013

Atheists score 1.95 IQ points higher than Agnostics, 3.82 points higher than Liberal persuasions, and 5.89 IQ points higher than Dogmatic persuasions. Denominations differ significantly in IQ and income. Religiosity declines between ages 12 to 17. It is suggested that IQ makes an individual likely to gravitate toward a denomination and level of achievement that best fit his or hers particular level of cognitive complexity. Ontogenetically speaking this means that contemporary denominations are rank ordered by largely hereditary variations in brain efficiency (i.e. IQ). In terms of evolution, modern Atheists are reacting rationally to cognitive and emotional challenges, whereas Liberals and, in particular Dogmatics, still rely on ancient, pre-rational, supernatural and wishful thinking.

Atheists are not necessarily the ubermensche you make us out to be.

Kali-Yuga: "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them" -Thomas Jefferson-

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

Kali-Yuga: But they are, and have all throughout recorded human history. Which group of people are voting en masse against equal rights for gays? Which group of people are most responsible for the "war on science" and trying to force their creationists beliefs into science classes? Which group of people believe it is their divine right to rule over everyone else?

I'll take the Christian Evangelical, Prosperity, and Dominionist movement for 900, Alex.

Again, this is a fallacious case of "All or none". Along those lines, all Arabs are terrorists, all Shintoists support Japanese Militant Nationalism, and all pagans practice human sacrifice.
2012-06-04 04:53:45 AM  
1 votes:

BronyMedic: Keizer_Ghidorah: And one can, and should, ask: if the believers can't even agree with each other, why should non-believers be interested?

Because as an Atheist, both the freedom from religion, and the freedom OF religion, are important concepts to me.


I'd love to be free from it too, but there's a lot of Christians trying to turn the country into a theocracy, strip people of their rights and freedoms, and force their interpretation of morality into law. A swift kick in the dick is what's needed right now to put these people back in their place.

Wish I had nothing against Christians, but the lunatics are running the asylum and the normal ones aren't doing anything to stop them. I'm all for freedom, too, but how much damage has to be done before self-preservation is more important?
2012-06-04 04:50:34 AM  
1 votes:

Mad_Radhu: Bevets: 2) Christians have been around for nearly two thousand years and have not engaged in genocide.

Tell that to these folks:

[espressostalinist.files.wordpress.com image 575x446]

I'm sure all those passages in the Bible where God said it was okay to murder every man, woman, and child who lived in the land promised to the Hebrews had NO influence on the various groups of Christians who saw the Americas as their new "promised land".


I thought the founding fathers were Deists
2012-06-04 04:24:17 AM  
1 votes:

BronyMedic: I rest my case. Being brilliant doesn't mean you're not a dick. It also doesn't mean that you're not a fascist, or advocate of fascistic means.


No, but statistically speaking, being brilliant means you're probably not very likely to fall victim to the god delusion. There's a reason why the groups with the highest incidence rates of religious belief include the uneducated and those with below average IQ's. Most believers aren't even capable of understanding their own religious texts let alone the writings of someone like Hume or Sartre.

Religion is here to stay. Nothing you do, no amount of ridicule or mouthing off you post on FARK will change that.

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them" -Thomas Jefferson-

As long as they're not forcing their beliefs on anyone, indoctrinating children, using them in the justification of harm or discrimination, or killing anyone in the name of it

But they are, and have all throughout recorded human history. Which group of people are voting en masse against equal rights for gays? Which group of people are most responsible for the "war on science" and trying to force their creationists beliefs into science classes? Which group of people believe it is their divine right to rule over everyone else?
2012-06-04 03:54:09 AM  
1 votes:

BronyMedic: Kali-Yuga: and you be the one who isn't?

Sorry. But this irks me. If someone disagrees with your rabid brand of fundamentalism, and yes - what your frothing on about IS fundamentalism, no different than what's discussed in this article - they have to be Christian? If they disagree with you, and argue from reality complex historical and sociopolitcal issues rather than from some base ignorance and laughable "ALL RELIGIONS ARE THE EVULZ LOL" principal, they're automatically apologists?

I'm an Atheist, and people like you bother me on a base level. And this argument is entire fallacious. It assumes that despite the differences in belief, there are not fundamental principals agreed upon that transcend all of the major "flavors", if you will, of Christianity.

"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Kali-Yuga: I "lump together" all god-botherers regardless of creed as people who would rather persist in a comfortable delusion than accept some of the stark realities of life.

Religious belief is a culturally acceptable mass delusion, and like other mental illnesses, there is a spectrum of severity. One one end of the spectrum you have moderate believers who claim the contradictory parts of their scripture and outright historical and scientific inaccuracies contained within as allegory, and on the other end you have fundamentalist biblical literalists.

Religion is a culturally evolved institution that adopts specific answers to circular questions and establishes authority schemes to indoctrinate people to those beliefs, substituting dogma for reason and truth.
It provides myths to answer real questions, and those myths are protected by their unfalsifiability, threats and promises. The paradoxical idea that a lack of evidence is a positive virtue is self sustaining because it is self-referential, and once a believer has been indoctrina ...


One must wonder why there are "flavors" of Christianity at all. If they all believe in God and the Bible, why are there hundreds of denominations?

It's because man created it, and men like to leave their mark on history. At a Great Council the original church split, creating the Catholic and the Orthodox churches. While the Orthodox side remained whole, the Catholic side splintered and sprouted like a Miracle-Gro-infused weed, birthing Baptists, Lutherans, Episcopalians, and more. Why? Because someone at some point decided that the version of Christianity they were following wasn't "correct" to them or just didn't fit their desire, so they splintered off and altered it and called it something else. And each one altered the Bible to suit their needs, picking the bits they liked and tossing or changing the bits they didn't. Now we have a bunch of branches on a two-trunked tree that's connected at the roots, that being God, and that's practically all that connects them.

And one can, and should, ask: if the believers can't even agree with each other, why should non-believers be interested?
2012-06-04 03:32:13 AM  
1 votes:
Kali-Yuga: and you be the one who isn't?

Sorry. But this irks me. If someone disagrees with your rabid brand of fundamentalism, and yes - what your frothing on about IS fundamentalism, no different than what's discussed in this article - they have to be Christian? If they disagree with you, and argue from reality complex historical and sociopolitcal issues rather than from some base ignorance and laughable "ALL RELIGIONS ARE THE EVULZ LOL" principal, they're automatically apologists?

I'm an Atheist, and people like you bother me on a base level. And this argument is entire fallacious. It assumes that despite the differences in belief, there are not fundamental principals agreed upon that transcend all of the major "flavors", if you will, of Christianity.

"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Kali-Yuga: I "lump together" all god-botherers regardless of creed as people who would rather persist in a comfortable delusion than accept some of the stark realities of life.

Religious belief is a culturally acceptable mass delusion, and like other mental illnesses, there is a spectrum of severity. One one end of the spectrum you have moderate believers who claim the contradictory parts of their scripture and outright historical and scientific inaccuracies contained within as allegory, and on the other end you have fundamentalist biblical literalists.

Religion is a culturally evolved institution that adopts specific answers to circular questions and establishes authority schemes to indoctrinate people to those beliefs, substituting dogma for reason and truth.
It provides myths to answer real questions, and those myths are protected by their unfalsifiability, threats and promises. The paradoxical idea that a lack of evidence is a positive virtue is self sustaining because it is self-referential, and once a believer has been indoctrinated into thinking this way, it automatically undermines any opposition to its self.

Until recent history religion has also had a traditional exemption from analysis and criticism, this is one of the reasons it's such an insidious meme.


Ladies and Gentlemen - the Strawman Atheist. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HollywoodAtheist

Excuse me. Alterac Valley just popped.
2012-06-04 03:16:32 AM  
1 votes:

WhyteRaven74: I dunno, not something I particularly concern myself with.


Why? Because you're concerned you may not like the answer?

At what percentage would they become "real christians" and you be the one who isn't? 51%? 75%? 90%? Because the majority of the christians who don't belong to your particular sect probably don't consider you to be a "real christian" either.

Protestants believe "real christians" must agree that the Bible is inerrant, that salvation is by grace, and that one must be "born-again" to be saved and avoid eternal punishment in Hell.

Roman Catholics believe "real christians" are defined according to their baptism status and the presence of any unresolved mortal sin in their lives.

The earliest christians before the new testament was written and translated and modified and translated, and modified and translated again, believed that "real christians" were simply people who were baptized and proclaimed "Jesus is Lord"
2012-06-04 03:06:09 AM  
1 votes:

imprimere: I don't want to step on your argument, but I'm just curious. Do you lump all Muslims together?


I "lump together" all god-botherers regardless of creed as people who would rather persist in a comfortable delusion than accept some of the stark realities of life.

Religious belief is a culturally acceptable mass delusion, and like other mental illnesses, there is a spectrum of severity. One one end of the spectrum you have moderate believers who claim the contradictory parts of their scripture and outright historical and scientific inaccuracies contained within as allegory, and on the other end you have fundamentalist biblical literalists.

Religion is a culturally evolved institution that adopts specific answers to circular questions and establishes authority schemes to indoctrinate people to those beliefs, substituting dogma for reason and truth.
It provides myths to answer real questions, and those myths are protected by their unfalsifiability, threats and promises. The paradoxical idea that a lack of evidence is a positive virtue is self sustaining because it is self-referential, and once a believer has been indoctrinated into thinking this way, it automatically undermines any opposition to its self.

Until recent history religion has also had a traditional exemption from analysis and criticism, this is one of the reasons it's such an insidious meme.
2012-06-04 02:56:23 AM  
1 votes:
... is anyone else under the impression that Bevets and such others are just alts that Drew and his like use to up their advertising click-counts?

/hold on, there's someone at the door
2012-06-04 02:54:01 AM  
1 votes:
Wow, nice thread derail. Was it intentional to distract people from the Christian children being indoctrinated to kill? Who knows. It'd be nice to go back to it, though, since it matters a lot more right now than a 70-year-old war and a dead madman's thoughts.
2012-06-04 02:28:41 AM  
1 votes:

Sabyen91: 100 Watt Walrus: Lionel Mandrake: Fun fact: the vast majority of Germans in the 1930s and 40s were devout Christians!

Fun fact: the vast majority of Germans in the 1930s and '40s weren't Nazis and had little to do with the war or the genocide.

Look, there are a lot of good and easy arguments that can be made against what Bevets said (or really, anything Bevets says), but this one is just stupid.

Actually German citizens knew what was happening.

/Just following orders isn't just something people made up.


Yes, all Germans knew. They all had access to news networks from around the world, and could tune in to the latest broadcasts from overseas without penalty. The press in Nazi Germany was as free as any in the world. Stories about death camps and the slaughter on the Eastern Front were almost a daily staple. At any rate, there were no penalties for passing on stories from friends or relatives about what they might have seen, and the people involved in atrocities were always proud to tell their friends and families what they had seen and done. There was a war going on with the front hundreds or even thousands of miles away, but all Germans knew exactly what was going on in those far-away lands. Besides, no Germans were ever executed for passing on rumors or stories that contradicted official stories. Germans were unique in that they had access to all this information, and yet did nothing. No Germans opposed the Nazis either. No other people is as evil as they were.

/amirite?
2012-06-04 02:20:47 AM  
1 votes:

Darth_Lukecash: Wow. There is an actual argument on how Christian/non-Christian nazis were.

They were farking Nazis! Some were Christians, atheist, pagans, and Catholic. But they all were farking Nazis!


Which is why the nazi's closed down the German Freethinkers League in the spring of 1933, when Hitler outlawed all atheistic and freethinking groups in Germany, and it was turned into a to a bureau advising the public on church matters.

The German census of May 1939 indicates that 54 percent of Germans considered themselves Protestant and 40 percent considered themselves Catholic, with only 3.5 percent claiming to be neo-pagan "believers in God," and 1.5 percent unbelievers. This census came more than six years into the Hitler era.

Nazi Christians didn't abandon basic Christian doctrines, like the divinity of Jesus. The actions of Hitler and the Nazis were as "Christian" as those of people during the Crusades or the Inquisition. Germany saw itself as a fundamentally Christian nation and millions of Christians enthusiastically endorsed Hitler and the Nazi Party, seeing both as embodiments of German and Christian ideals.

So, no, the nazi's weren't atheists.
2012-06-04 02:09:00 AM  
1 votes:
Wow. There is an actual argument on how Christian/non-Christian nazis were.

They were farking Nazis! Some were Christians, atheist, pagans, and Catholic. But they all were farking Nazis!

Any who opposed them, catholic, pagan, christian and atheist was killed.
2012-06-04 01:56:40 AM  
1 votes:
So Adolf wanted all organized god fearing religions gassed so he could put his own god fearing religion in place.
How is that not religious intentions?
whatever...

Way to go christians, you've managed to thread shiat divert the attention that your about to teach hate in our public schools to a unrelated 70 year old war.

Gee, I was wondering how this compares to Vlad the Impaler?
IT DOESN'T, ASSHAT!!
How about Genghis Kahn?
sigh...

As entertaining as it is to read Hitler rants (not), you're avoiding talk about the radical religious people teaching hate to children in public schools in modern time... Gettin all Godwinny is such low hanging fruit.
2012-06-04 01:56:12 AM  
1 votes:

ciberido: The funny thing is 1 Chr. 4:42-43 talks about another battle in which the Amelikites were again "wiped out." So apparently God's Chosen People aren't as thorough at wiping as they should be.


Course all that is rather contrary to what Jesus taught. When Jesus told the parable of the good Samaritan he was indeed teaching the exact opposite. It's not just about being nice to strangers, in the context of its day it was as radical as anything Malcolm X ever imagined saying. It was a declaration against xenophobia, the idea that you are entitled to think of yourself as innately superior to someone else simply because they're different and so on.
2012-06-04 01:50:29 AM  
1 votes:
Funny....the same people who whine whenever extreme Christians go nuts....have no problem when Muslims preach AND carry out the exact same thing...its crickets when Muslims kill in the name of religion

I guess if these people prayed to Allah it would be OK to kill for religion...amirite?
2012-06-04 01:49:34 AM  
1 votes:

Kali-Yuga: Anyone can be baptized a christian,


Well the Quakers don't do baptisms. They also don't do creeds. They just worry about what Jesus said and leave two thousands years of doctrine and theology outside.
2012-06-04 01:49:03 AM  
1 votes:
2012-06-04 01:44:22 AM  
1 votes:
This is fun. You play a brilliant fool, ICB.
2012-06-04 01:41:50 AM  
1 votes:

BronyMedic: He's using ass-pulls to troll because he doesn't have any factual evidence.

The Office of Strategic Services put together a report post-war which I linked earlier in the thread that detailed the Nazi Regime's plans for those who didn't fall in line with their Nationalistic Religion.



A report from the 1940's

Far more relevant than 20 citations on a Wiki article.

Then you proclaim you have "factual evidence"

What a piece of work you are.

Have you ever spent one day in a college class room? That's what I thought.

Let the adults debate because you embarrassed yourself AGAIN for the 3rd day in a row.
2012-06-04 01:31:50 AM  
1 votes:

intelligent comment below: BronyMedic: intelligent comment below: I'll repeat this just for amusement. Speaking of ignorance and trolling

So your evidence that Hitler loved Christianity was that some historians debate his plans for genocide after World War II?

Careful with that much straw, you might pose a fire hazard.


excuse me? You posted historically inaccurate links and made false accusations with no evidence at all.

I'll post the entire section here for you to build a new strawman to hide behind just because you can't admit the Nazi party was Christian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany#Nazi_Attitudes_ t owards_Christianity

Nazi Attitudes towards Christianity

Many Nazis promoted positive Christianity a militant, non-denominational form of Christianity which emphasized Christ as an active fighter and anti-semite who opposed the institutionalized Judaism of his day.[35] Even in the later years of the Third Reich, many Protestant and Catholic clergy within Germany persisted in believing that Nazism was in its essence in accordance with Christian precepts.[36]

The Nazi leadership made use of both Christian symbolism, indigenous Germanic pagan imagery, and ancient Roman symbolism in their propaganda. However the use of pagan symbolism worried some Protestants.[37] Many Nazi leaders, including Adolf Hitler,[38] subscribed either to a mixture of pseudoscientific theories, particularly Social Darwinism,[39] or to mysticism and occultism, which was especially strong in the SS.[citation needed] Central to both groupings was the belief in Germanic (white Northern-European) racial superiority. The existence of a Ministry of Church Affairs, instituted in 1935 and headed by Hanns Kerrl, was hardly recognized by ideologists such as Alfred Rosenberg or by other political decision-makers.[citation needed]

In a confidential message to the Gauleiter on June 9, 1941, Martin Bormann, had declared that "National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable."[40] He also declared ...


Did you even read that? It doesn't reach the conclusion you did before you found it, skimmed it for supporting statements, then pasted and bolded it.
2012-06-04 01:31:02 AM  
1 votes:

intelligent comment below: BronyMedic: intelligent comment below: I'll repeat this just for amusement. Speaking of ignorance and trolling

So your evidence that Hitler loved Christianity was that some historians debate his plans for genocide after World War II?

Careful with that much straw, you might pose a fire hazard.


excuse me? You posted historically inaccurate links and made false accusations with no evidence at all.

I'll post the entire section here for you to build a new strawman to hide behind just because you can't admit the Nazi party was Christian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany#Nazi_Attitudes_ t owards_Christianity

Nazi Attitudes towards Christianity

Many Nazis promoted positive Christianity a militant, non-denominational form of Christianity which emphasized Christ as an active fighter and anti-semite who opposed the institutionalized Judaism of his day.[35] Even in the later years of the Third Reich, many Protestant and Catholic clergy within Germany persisted in believing that Nazism was in its essence in accordance with Christian precepts.[36]

The Nazi leadership made use of both Christian symbolism, indigenous Germanic pagan imagery, and ancient Roman symbolism in their propaganda. However the use of pagan symbolism worried some Protestants.[37] Many Nazi leaders, including Adolf Hitler,[38] subscribed either to a mixture of pseudoscientific theories, particularly Social Darwinism,[39] or to mysticism and occultism, which was especially strong in the SS.[citation needed] Central to both groupings was the belief in Germanic (white Northern-European) racial superiority. The existence of a Ministry of Church Affairs, instituted in 1935 and headed by Hanns Kerrl, was hardly recognized by ideologists such as Alfred Rosenberg or by other political decision-makers.[citation needed]

In a confidential message to the Gauleiter on June 9, 1941, Martin Bormann, had declared that "National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable."[40] He also declared that the Churches influence in the leadership of the people "must absolutely and finally be broken." Bormann believed Nazism was based on a "scientific" world-view, and was completely incompatible with Christianity.[40] Bormann stated:

When we [National Socialists] speak of belief in God, we do not mean, like the naive Christians and their spiritual exploiters, a man-like being sitting around somewhere in the universe. The force governed by natural law by which all these countless planets move in the universe, we call omnipotence or God. The assertion that this universal force can trouble itself about the destiny of each individual being, every smallest earthly bacillus, can be influenced by so-called prayers or other surprising things, depends upon a requisite dose of naivety or else upon shameless professional self-interest.[41]

During the war Alfred Rosenberg formulated a thirty-point program for the National Reich Church, which included:

The National Reich Church claims exclusive right and control over all Churches.
The National Church is determined to exterminate foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year 800.
The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible.
The National Church will clear away from its altars all Crucifixes, Bibles and pictures of Saints.
On the altars there must be nothing but Mein Kampf and to the left of the altar a sword.[42]

Some Nazis, like Alfred Rosenberg and Martin Bormann, viewed Christianity and National Socialism as competing world views. However other Nazis like Dietrich Eckart and Walter Buch, saw them as part of the same movement.[43]

From the mid 1930s, anti-Christian elements within the Nazi party became more prominent, however they were restrained by Hitler. In 1937 all Confessing Church seminaries and teaching was banned. Dissident Protestants were forbidden to attend universities. During Hitler's dictatorship, more than 6,000 clergymen, on the charge of treasonable activity, were imprisoned or executed.[38] The same measures were taken in the occupied territories, in French Lorraine, the Nazis forbid religious youth movements, parish meetings, scout meetings, and church assets were taken. Church schools were closed, and teachers in religious orders were dismissed. The episcopal seminary was closed, and the SA and SS desecrated churches, religious statutes and pictures. 300 clergy were expelled from the Lorraine region, monks and nuns were deported or forced to renounce their vows.[44]
Nazi policy towards the Churches

Soon after their takeover of power in Germany, the Nazi government resumed talks with the Holy See concerning the establishment of a concordat. Previously, concordats, regulating the relation between the Catholic Church and the state, had been established in Bavaria (1924), Prussia (1929) and Baden (1932), but talks had failed on a federal level for several reasons. This attempt achieved the signing of the Reichskonkordat on July 20, 1933.

Like the idea of the Reichskonkordat, the notion of a Protestant Reich Church, which would unify the Protestant Churches, also had been considered previously.[45] Hitler had discussed the matter as early as 1927 with Ludwig Müller, who was at that time the military chaplain of Königsberg.[45]
Further information: Kirchenkampf

The opposition of many adherents of traditional religions to Nazism is only one side of the issue.[46] Within the Lutheran Churches in Germany, the most prominent members of the Bekennende Kirche (Confessing Church), Martin Niemöller and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, opposed Nazism. They rejected the Nazi efforts to meld volkisch principles with traditional Lutheran doctrine.[47] They were, however, (as of 1932) in the minority within the Protestant church bodies in Germany, compared to the Deutsche Christen (German Christians), who supported National Socialism and cooperated with the Nazis. But in 1933, a number of Deutsche Christen left the movement after a November speech by Reinhold Krause that urged, among other things, the rejection of the Old Testament as Jewish superstition.[48] However, even the "Confessing Church made frequent declarations of loyalty to Hitler".[49]

The resistance of churches against the Nazis was the longest lasting and most bitter of any German institution.[50] The Nazis weakened the churches' resistance from within and a significant number of the clergy, particularly Protestant, supported National Socialism, but the Nazis had not yet succeeded in taking control of the churches, evidenced by the thousands of clergy sent to concentration camps.[51] The Catholic Church was particularly suppressed in Poland: between 1939 and 1945, an estimated 3,000 members (18%) of the Polish clergy, were murdered; of these, 1,992 died in concentration camps.[52] In the annexed territory of Reichsgau Wartheland it was even more harsh: churches were systematically closed and most priests were either killed, imprisoned, or deported to the General Government. Eighty per cent of the Catholic clergy and five bishops of Warthegau were sent to concentration camps in 1939; 108 of them are regarded as blessed martyrs.[52] Religious persecution was not confined to Poland: in Dachau concentration camp alone, 2,600 Catholic priests from 24 different countries were killed.[52]

A number of historians maintain that the Nazis had a general covert plan, which some argue existed before the Nazis' rose to power,[53] to destroy Christianity within the Reich.[54][55][56][57][58][59][60] To what extent a plan to subordinate the churches and limit their role in the country's life existed before the Nazi rise to power, and exactly who among the Nazi leadership supported such a move remains contested."[53] However other historians maintain no such plan existed.[61][62][63][64] Summarizing a 1945 Office of Strategic Services report, New York Times columnist Joe Sharkey, stated that the Nazis had a plan to "subvert and destroy German Christianity," which was to be accomplished through control and subversion of the churches and to be completed after the war.[65][66] However the report stated this goal was limmited to a "sector of the National Socialist party," namely Alfred Rosenberg and Baldur von Schirach.[67] Historian Roger Griffin maintains: "There is no doubt that in the long run Nazi leaders such as Hitler and Himmler intended to eradicate Christianity just as ruthlessly as any other rival ideology, even if in the short term they had to be content to make compromises with it."[68]

However, since 2003 this view has been challenged.[69][70] In his study The Holy Reich, the historian Richard Steigmann-Gall comes to the conclusion that Christianity, "in the final analysis, did not constitute a barrier to Nazism." Furthermore, he comments on the reason why Nazism is quite often seen as the opposite of Christianity:

"What we suppose Nazism must surely have been about usually tells us as much about contemporary societies as about the past purportedly under review. The insistence that Nazism was an anti-Christian movement has been one of the most enduring truisms of the past fifty years.... Exploring the possibility that many Nazis regarded themselves as Christian would have decisively undermined the myths of the Cold War and the regeneration of the German nation ... Nearly all Western societies retain a sense of Christian identity to this day.... That Nazism as the world-historical metaphor for human evil and wickedness should in some way have been related to Christianity can therefore be regarded by many only as unthinkable."[71]

Steigmann-Gall's views, however, run against the general consensus on the subject.[72]


Lovely bold there; I don't know if I agree or disagree. It is quite possible Hitler wanted to do away with the church after the second world war; they would have been a threat. But, these citations come from wiki. Wiki is less reliable than a methed out, one legged hobo. Do you have a citation from, say, any of the museums and or repositories where the actual documents are kept?

You won't get far in your argument without stuff like that.

/ the national archives has stuff like that; so do the smithsonian institutions. I imagine some of it is available on the Internet
2012-06-04 01:17:33 AM  
1 votes:
WHERE THERE ARE FUNDIES, FUN DIES.

And what a surprise it will be to them when they decide to launch their little "cleansing" program on the nonbelievers, only to find out that when you declare war on the rest of Humanity, the rest of Humanity is going to fight back.

What? Did they think that everyone was just going to meekly say "Okay" and line up to head into the gas chambers?

profile.ak.fbcdn.netprofile.ak.fbcdn.netprofile.ak.fbcdn.netprofile.ak.fbcdn.netprofile.ak.fbcdn.net
2012-06-04 01:13:18 AM  
1 votes:

LindyJohn: Seriously, if you know nothing about the Nazi supression of Christianity in the Third Reich then you are basically just ignorant about that history.


Suppression of the powerful church and suppression of "weak and flabby" versions of Christianity. Absolutely no question about it.
But then he was following (and creating) the new and improved Nazi version of Christianity. In that, he was following a long line of creators of new and improved versions.
The only reason that you say his version is false is that he lost.

/Hint: They're all false.
2012-06-04 01:08:22 AM  
1 votes:

LindyJohn: Ultimately, the Nazis regarding Christianity as having the stink of Jewishness, and intended to eventually do away with it alltogether.



You have no actual historical basis for this argument, it's just something repeated by Christians like BronyMedic to not address the evil their religion has done in the past and not accept it.
2012-06-04 12:56:15 AM  
1 votes:

sharpiegreed: When I was Agnostic, I was attacked by Athiests for believing in something other than nothing


1) This never happened.

sharpiegreed: Just because some Christians are crazy and fanatical doesn't mean every Christian is crazy and fanatical.


2) Yeah maybe, but you're not doing enough to shun and/or punish the batshiat fanatics hijacking your religion. And as long as your group tolerates a subset that intends to force its ideals upon every citizen of the world, I'm going to have to say: fark you, fark your religion and the christ you rode in on.
2012-06-04 12:53:28 AM  
1 votes:
intelligent comment below: I'm not a troll,

That's the funniest comment of the entire thread.
2012-06-04 12:52:19 AM  
1 votes:
0Icky0: BronyMedic: Oh please. Tell me more about Hitler's love for Christianity. I'm curious to see how much revisionist history you can get in.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)


http://www.scribd.com/doc/36145204/Hitler-s-Table-Talk-Troubling-Find s

"When one thinks of the opinions held concerning Christianity by our best minds a hundred, two hundred years ago, one is ashamed to realise how little we have since evolved. I didn't know that Julian the Apostate had passed judgment with such clear-sightedness on Christianity and Christians.... the Galilean, who later was called the Christ, intended something quite different. He must be regarded as a popular leader who took up His position against Jewry... and it's certain that Jesus was not a Jew. The Jews, by the way, regarded Him as the son of a whore-of a whore and a Roman soldier. The decisive falsification of Jesus's doctrine was the work of St. Paul.... Paul of Tarsus (his name was Saul, before the road to Damascus) was one of those who persecuted Jesus most savagely

We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany. - Adolf Hitler

http://books.google.com/books?id=_v59p5CDNa8C&pg=PA100#v=onepage&q&f= f alse

Publically, Hitler used predominant Christian sentiments against Jews which had prevailed in Europe for thousands of years. Privately, he despised Christianity and all it stood for. His plan was to replace it with a Nationalistic Occultism based on the Aryan and German mythos he created. Why do you think that there were pseudo-religious runes and symbols in almost everything the Nazis minted, printed, and fought with?
2012-06-04 12:43:46 AM  
1 votes:
I see that a shiny new Fark ex-lurker has bridged the gap between faith and reason, and done a good job of it.

Welcome to kitty's Blue section.
2012-06-04 12:34:31 AM  
1 votes:

Diogenes The Cynic: FirstNationalBastard: It should be considered child abuse to force religion on children.

If someone is so bugfark nuts to want to believe in fairy tales once they reach adulthood, that's their business. But to poison the minds of impressionable children with this crap and turn them into hatemongers and terrorists based on a millennium old book of fairy tales is despicable, and should be seen as a reason to have the children removed from the care of the irresponsible individuals brainwashing them.

/religion is a mental illness.

Who pissed in your coffee today?


Hateful religious people would be my first guess.
2012-06-04 12:34:21 AM  
1 votes:

LovingTeacher: I think it is a good thing that these christians are being so open about what they believe. In the long run it will lose them the children they seek to indoctrinate. There is a christian group that meets after school at the school I work at called Squire The Fire. A real nutty right wing fundamentalist group. Several of the kids go to it because they are expected to by their parents. Those kids have told me in confidence one of the reasons they allow themselves to be forced to go is so they can go to conferences in large cities a couple of times a year, the school I work at is in a town of 500. The reason they want to go to these conferences? Hook up with girls and smoke weed.


Sounds about right. I used to regularly go to a sci-fi convention that always took place in the same hotel on the same weekend as a Catholic Charisma convention. And invariably, if the hotel had problems that weekend with noisy guests, underage drinking, etc., it was ALWAYS with the Catholic Charisma guests.

As you might imagine, there's virtually no overlap between those two groups, but I always made a point that if someone from the Catholic Charisma convention ever had questions about what we do, what books to read, what TV shows or movies to watch, etc., I'd answer to the best of my ability. The last time that happened, I suggested to a young boy (probably 10-12 years old) that he should watch "Babylon 5".
2012-06-04 12:31:10 AM  
1 votes:

BronyMedic: Lionel Mandrake: Positive Christianity is still Christianity

Disingenuous Statement. Calling Positive Christianity "Christianity" would be like calling Jones' or Korresh's cult Christianity.

I have no love for the Church, but I call things like they are.


Sorry, they use the Bible, they worship Jesus...just because you think they go too far doesn't give you the right to say they're not true christians. Hell, say what you want, they easily meet the minimum qualifications for "Christianity" in my book.

Hell, Positive Christianity is no more out of the mainstream than Mormonism
2012-06-04 12:29:18 AM  
1 votes:

sharpiegreed: Just because some Christians are crazy and fanatical doesn't mean every Christian is crazy and fanatical.



Funny because this was the same argument many people said about Islam after 9/11, and the response was "well then they should condemn the terrorist extremists and do everything to shut them up"

So lets do this, get them out of your organization.
2012-06-04 12:24:56 AM  
1 votes:
Religion of peace
2012-06-04 12:20:51 AM  
1 votes:
Isn't it bad enough that they have their little clubs at colleges (like Campus Crusade and others)? Now they want to brainwash little kids?

Religion is like a penis: It's fine to have one. It's fine to be proud of it. But keep it to yourself and don't expose children to it.
2012-06-04 12:16:26 AM  
1 votes:

imprimere: I didn't see anything in there telling children to go kill people, but hey, someone has a book to sell. Let's all overrecat post-haste.


Begins second paragraph and ends seven paragraph, instructing children about the fact those clubs will in thousands of schools, amongst lessons taught in those clubs includes one concerning the Amalekites, and this lesson focuses on the fact God is serious about killing nonbelievers. Now, this may be an inaccurate depiction of the lesson and complete fabrication, but this is a different discussion from you not seeing this which means you did not read, are unable to read, or lack extremely basic reading comprehension.
2012-06-04 12:15:28 AM  
1 votes:
I think it is a good thing that these christians are being so open about what they believe. In the long run it will lose them the children they seek to indoctrinate. There is a christian group that meets after school at the school I work at called Squire The Fire. A real nutty right wing fundamentalist group. Several of the kids go to it because they are expected to by their parents. Those kids have told me in confidence one of the reasons they allow themselves to be forced to go is so they can go to conferences in large cities a couple of times a year, the school I work at is in a town of 500. The reason they want to go to these conferences? Hook up with girls and smoke weed.
2012-06-04 12:14:28 AM  
1 votes:
There are those who agree with Bevets, and those who don't.

Choose.
2012-06-04 12:12:10 AM  
1 votes:

BronyMedic: The Nazi Regime had a plan to replace Christianity as we know it with their version, called Positive Christianity.


Positive Christianity is still Christianity
2012-06-04 12:11:42 AM  
1 votes:

iheartscotch: What's wrong with a little indoctrination; every now and then?

I'm giving this a big fat MEH; it isn't any different from the norm. Children are indoctrinated by their existence; nurture vs nature and all that. A child brought up in an extremely religious household will obviously have a different outlook then a child brought up in an atheistic household.


You must not have read the article. This is very different from the norm.

The instruction manual goes on to champion obedience in all things. In fact, pretty much every lesson that the Good News Club gives involves reminding children that they must, at all costs, obey. If God tells you to kill nonbelievers, he really wants you to kill them all. No questions asked, no exceptions allowed."

That's a lot different from even the most extremely religious households I've run across any time in the last 40 years. I don't recall any of my rabidly religious peers being explicitly told they had to start stoning unbelievers; if you've had different experiences, do please relate them.
2012-06-04 12:10:17 AM  
1 votes:

kingoomieiii: doglover: Christians today are ideal. Much less stabby than they used to be.

Idea, but not perfect. Still too loud. Still afraid of things like fantasy books (irony) and ouija boards.


If it weren't for our secular society they would still be killing people.
2012-06-04 12:10:10 AM  
1 votes:

sharpiegreed: I am a Good News Club volunteer.
If followed correctly, it is simply church for children. They have a meal, sing bible songs, have a basic bible lesson (like the Good Samaritan), play games for small prizes, memorize a bible verse, and have a story about a missionary.

In no way, shape, or form should there be anything else going on. It is no different than traditonal Vacation Bible School or Sunday School.

I see that the article is talking about a lesson in next year's plan, which I have not seen and can't comment on it's accuracy.

Just because some Christians are crazy and fanatical doesn't mean every Christian is crazy and fanatical.

I did not convert to Christianity until I was 30 years old. I have been on both sides of the fence and both sides have ridiculous assumptions about the other.

The most amazing part of the Good News Club for me is that I know for alot of kids, the meal we serve them is the only decent food they will get for the rest of the day and sometimes the praise and attention we give is all they will get outside of the classroom. Sometimes including the classroom.

These children are not forced to go to club. It is a completely voluntary club. Parents sign permission slips. If you have any earnest questions about my experience with the Good News Club , EIP.

I'm not trying to change any one person's opinion. I just wanted to share my experience.


Go sell you bat shiat crazy mental retardation elsewhere. We're all stocked up here(planet earth).
2012-06-04 12:09:45 AM  
1 votes:

iheartscotch: I'm giving this a big fat MEH; it isn't any different from the norm. Children are indoctrinated by their existence; nurture vs nature and all that. A child brought up in an extremely religious household will obviously have a different outlook then a child brought up in an atheistic household.


That's not true at all. I was brought up in an extremely religious household, and I'm about as atheist as they come now.
2012-06-04 12:08:55 AM  
1 votes:

A Non Amos: Say, off point, but: I might be one of the newestly-looking Farkers around here, but I've lurked for years. I lurked while I was in high school, whenever that nag of a librarian wasn't watching.


Lurk moar.
2012-06-04 12:07:47 AM  
1 votes:

Sabyen91: iheartscotch: What's wrong with a little indoctrination; every now and then?

It might be the killing.


Now now, let's not bicker and argue about who killed who, this is supposed to be a happy occasion!

/ people will always find reasons to kill other people

// unless you want to throw out the constitution; people have the right to teach their children pretty much whatever they want
2012-06-04 12:06:39 AM  
1 votes:

Bevets: "Good News" clubs teach children in public schools the Biblical importance of killing all non believers

This headline is full of fail. 1) For the Secular Fundamentalist: these clubs are not held during school hours. They are held after hours when the general public has access to public schools. 2) Christians have been around for nearly two thousand years and have not engaged in genocide.


You are correct on #1, but ever so wrong on #2. I'm sure this has been pointed out many times already.
2012-06-04 12:06:27 AM  
1 votes:

illannoyin: You better enjoy here while you're here because there's no here there.


Here sucks and i'm glad it's not there.
2012-06-04 12:06:09 AM  
1 votes:
Lionel Mandrake: Fun fact: Nazi Party members were every bit as church going as their silent, acquiescent neighbors.

Fun Fact 2: Hitler had no love for Christianity. To him, the Catholic Church was every bit as vile as the Jews, but they served a very useful purpose.

The Nazi Regime had a plan to replace Christianity as we know it with their version, called Positive Christianity.
2012-06-04 12:04:47 AM  
1 votes:

Bevets: Christians have been around for nearly two thousand years and have not engaged in genocide.


t6ak.roblox.com

You've never heard of Oliver Cromwell, have ya? Or the wars and genocidal acts of the protestant reformation? Or the Trail of Tears? Or how the Crusaders took Jerusalem and slaughtered everyone inside, after offering amnesty. And I bet the Spanish reconquest didn't come off without slaughtering a few whole cities. And then there's some Charlie Chaplin look alike who racked up an outrageous gas bill after having written a book that included something alone the lines of "My Christian duty".

To be fair, Religion isn't the reason for goading people to genocide. It's about power. And you'll seldom find genocides conducted without the blessing of those in power.

Oh, and one last note... Rwanda is about 90% Christian.
2012-06-04 12:04:01 AM  
1 votes:

100 Watt Walrus: Lionel Mandrake: Fun fact: the vast majority of Germans in the 1930s and 40s were devout Christians!

Fun fact: the vast majority of Germans in the 1930s and '40s weren't Nazis and had little to do with the war or the genocide.

Look, there are a lot of good and easy arguments that can be made against what Bevets said (or really, anything Bevets says), but this one is just stupid.


Fun fact: Nazi Party members were every bit as church going as their silent, acquiescent neighbors.
2012-06-04 12:02:58 AM  
1 votes:

Ed Finnerty: More and more, Christians seem to confuse the Golden Rule with Golden Axe.


Are you high?

Moses killed half his own people immediately after coming down off the mountain with Thou Shalt Not Kill. The pope used to conquer small nations. The inquisition!!!

Christians today are ideal. Much less stabby than they used to be.
2012-06-04 12:02:54 AM  
1 votes:

douchebag/hater: Oh, subby.

What's wrong? Afraid to look for articles about Muslims teaching their children the same thing, along with how Jews are animals and bathe in the blood of dead Islamic children?

I guess you're just too CS to insult Muslims...


Yeah, I think it was pretty wrong. If you don't...you are a psychopath.
2012-06-04 12:02:03 AM  
1 votes:

iheartscotch: What's wrong with a little indoctrination; every now and then?


It might be the killing.
2012-06-04 12:01:43 AM  
1 votes:

sharpiegreed: The most amazing part of the Good News Club for me is that I know for alot of kids, the meal we serve them is the only decent food they will get for the rest of the day and sometimes the praise and attention we give is all they will get outside of the classroom. Sometimes including the classroom.


I, on the other hand, volunteer my time, money, and other resources both within and outside the classroom without asking any of them to follow my particular brand of belief on anything. Not to say you may not do good works, I just prefer good works for the sake of good works. Advertise a tad, maybe wear a shirt. Oddly, some Christians do this, as do other religious groups, and those people are fantastic. You, you might be alright provided the crap linked in the article is not actually being preached.
2012-06-04 12:01:04 AM  
1 votes:

100 Watt Walrus: Lionel Mandrake: Fun fact: the vast majority of Germans in the 1930s and 40s were devout Christians!

Fun fact: the vast majority of Germans in the 1930s and '40s weren't Nazis and had little to do with the war or the genocide.

Look, there are a lot of good and easy arguments that can be made against what Bevets said (or really, anything Bevets says), but this one is just stupid.


Actually German citizens knew what was happening.

/Just following orders isn't just something people made up.
2012-06-03 11:55:35 PM  
1 votes:
"The Amalekites had heard about Israel's true and living God many years before, but they refused to believe in him. The Amalekites refused to believe in God and God had promised punishment."

I think had I heard this in elementary school I might have become an atheist earlier.

"there are new state laws now in California which "require homosexual indoctrination for all students" in the school systems across the state...

Oh you people. I wish there was a God so he could remind you with lightning lying is wrong.
2012-06-03 11:53:03 PM  
1 votes:

sharpiegreed: I am a Good News Club volunteer.
If followed correctly, it is simply church for children. They have a meal, sing bible songs, have a basic bible lesson (like the Good Samaritan), play games for small prizes, memorize a bible verse, and have a story about a missionary.

In no way, shape, or form should there be anything else going on. It is no different than traditonal Vacation Bible School or Sunday School.

I see that the article is talking about a lesson in next year's plan, which I have not seen and can't comment on it's accuracy.

Just because some Christians are crazy and fanatical doesn't mean every Christian is crazy and fanatical.

I did not convert to Christianity until I was 30 years old. I have been on both sides of the fence and both sides have ridiculous assumptions about the other.

The most amazing part of the Good News Club for me is that I know for alot of kids, the meal we serve them is the only decent food they will get for the rest of the day and sometimes the praise and attention we give is all they will get outside of the classroom. Sometimes including the classroom.

These children are not forced to go to club. It is a completely voluntary club. Parents sign permission slips. If you have any earnest questions about my experience with the Good News Club , EIP.

I'm not trying to change any one person's opinion. I just wanted to share my experience.


Have you tried doing thes things in a building designed for it... Like a church? :)

I don't mind Christian/Any religious clubs in school. However institutional hate should never be taught. Nor should it affects child's social/accadmic standing.
2012-06-03 11:41:29 PM  
1 votes:

dopeydwarf: You know who else liked to kill people that didn't agree with them?

[static.bbc.co.uk image 640x360]

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 468x551]

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 470x427]


Political leaders? Like King Fernindad and Queen Isabella?
Moses (if he existed)?
2012-06-03 11:30:00 PM  
1 votes:
brap: 2wolves: Bevets: Christians have been around for nearly two thousand years and have not engaged in genocide.

Trail of Tears mean anything to you you ignorant f*ckstick?

Take it down a notch with the namecalling, you bloviating hoagie-biting mansandwich


HEY. Stop hating on Hoagies, you asshole.

Hoagies are the master race of sandwiches.
2012-06-03 11:22:10 PM  
1 votes:

Bevets: "Good News" clubs teach children in public schools the Biblical importance of killing all non believers

This headline is full of fail. 1) For the Secular Fundamentalist: these clubs are not held during school hours. They are held after hours when the general public has access to public schools. 2) Christians have been around for nearly two thousand years and have not engaged in genocide.


1. The general public does not have access to public schools at any time. One needs school approval.

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany - "The German census of May 1939 indicates that 54 percent of Germans considered themselves Protestant and 40 percent considered themselves Catholic"

But more to the point, THESE "Christians" are advocating the killing of non-Christians, and they're doing so in public schools - just as the headline says.
2012-06-03 10:27:32 PM  
1 votes:
Bevets: 2) Christians have been around for nearly two thousand years and have not engaged in genocide.

Bevets, you know you're not a very good liar, don't you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8whn597qTY
2012-06-03 10:15:18 PM  
1 votes:
Someone appears desperate for attention in this thread and isn't getting any. How sad for him.
2012-06-03 09:24:22 PM  
1 votes:
"Good News" clubs teach children in public schools the Biblical importance of killing all non believers

This headline is full of fail. 1) For the Secular Fundamentalist: these clubs are not held during school hours. They are held after hours when the general public has access to public schools. 2) Christians have been around for nearly two thousand years and have not engaged in genocide.
2012-06-03 09:01:58 PM  
1 votes:
There are already enough people jumping up and down on the Group W bench.
2012-06-03 08:47:16 PM  
1 votes:
This is what happens when you let the gay-straight alliances into schools. Once you do that, you have to let other clubs in.
2012-06-03 08:39:02 PM  
1 votes:
Someone please tell me this is an exaggeration.

Someone? Please?
2012-06-03 08:11:56 PM  
1 votes:
So? What ancient religion (that hasn't been destroyed by other religions and then "resurrected" by those who weren't privy to the original beliefs) hasn't preached that it's okay to kill non believers? It seems that Judaism, Christianity (at least through inheritance) and Islam all suffer from this affliction.

Sure, Hinduism and Buddhism offer some salvation from this "Kill them all, let god sort them out" belief -however: aren't they a little less believable without this fundamental tenant?
 
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