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(Reuters)   Louisiana defends privatization of education, and by "privatization of education" they really mean sending your kid to Sunday School 5 days per week where she will learn to count to potato in a windowless church bunker   (reuters.com) divider line 153
    More: Asinine, Sunday School, parochial schools, superintendent of schools, private schools, buyer beware, religious education, online school  
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5289 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Jun 2012 at 9:30 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-06-03 09:37:13 AM  
10 votes:
Why can't right-winger be honest and admit that this is nothing but an attempt to subsidize religious schools (as long as they're Christian of course)?

Hiding behind a term like "voucher" is a cowards way out.
2012-06-03 10:08:01 AM  
9 votes:
The way Biblefreaks mimic academic integrity has always reminded me of psychopaths practicing emotive facial expressions in a mirror. They know that in order to achieve their agenda they have to successfully imitate an entire dimension of human experience that they can never possibly understand. And no matter how convincing they can make it appear to a casual glance, one need only to scratch the surface to see what they really are.
2012-06-03 08:53:12 AM  
9 votes:
How else are we going to maintain profitability at our private prisons if we don't have a steady stream of raw materials?
2012-06-03 10:35:28 AM  
7 votes:

proteus_b: Serious Black: Actually, the best school systems in the world, including Finland and South Korea, offer absolutely no school choice and have completely public school systems. If we're supposed to learn lessons from what has been accomplished in other countries, school choice is not a lesson we should be learning.

Actually, Finland and South Korea have virtually no black people, so many of our problems are not actually represented in those systems.


Fark you.

Seriously, fark you.
2012-06-03 10:06:14 AM  
6 votes:

Weaver95: Mrtraveler01:
But of course Conservatives wouldn't like that because it conflicts with their true goal of teaching children Conservative orthodoxy in public schools.

i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?


Do you want the Official Conservative Movement Answer, or the real-world one? The former: "Liberalism and unions have destroyed our public education system, and it's now only used for drug dealing, DemonRat indoctrination about evolution, socialism, Global Warming, and teaching children how to have gay sex."

Real-world answer: because the conservative jihad believes that all areas of society -- the press, the judicial branch of govenment, the Girl Scouts, etc. -- should and must bend to its will. They have not been able to do this successfully with public education yet, and what they cannot take over, they would prefer to destroy and replace -- in this case, with a system that will, they hope, breed good little Christianist corporatists who will be reliable votes for God's Own Party.

I wish that the preceding paragraph were satirical hyperbole, but I'm afraid it is the literal, sober truth.
2012-06-03 08:50:56 AM  
6 votes:
Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

I would love to see a bio text that refutes denies evolution; that's gotta be some grade-A comedy. Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?
2012-06-03 12:45:58 PM  
5 votes:
For all the folks who are up in arms about unions: are you likewise against the Chamber of Commerce?

Are you against professional organizations where management groups confer and discuss strategies and share information and what measures to take to lobbying for industry standards?

Unions are the same thing, save that they organize the labor side of things. Every time you shout how unions are killing business, you need to understand that if unions are killing business, so are every damn CoC and industry organization, in the same fashion. That includes the RIAA, that includes every agricultural and industry lobby, every conference of industry leaders. It's the SAME thing, save that it's management organizing, as opposed to labor.

If you oppose labor organizing, then why aren't you equally incensed at management organizing?
2012-06-03 12:40:54 PM  
5 votes:

proteus_b: Fart_Machine: So you believe everything magically got better after the Emancipation Proclamation was issued?

No, of course not, but I believe that black gender/low-income/other minority group performance has decline in the last half-century, despite the growing acceptance of blacks gender/low-income/other minority group in society (and their commensurate rise in average income).


This is the problem with your responses. You're singling out one minority group to prove your argument regarding that minority group. You're failing to take in consideration that other minority groups are facing the same problems

While I am in favor of integration

How generous of you . . .

and delighted that we have moved out of the stone age in regards to race relations, I am also reticent about the successes of integration.

Well, have you let the blacks know that you're okay with them living in your country?

But, seriously, let's talk about this. Functionally, do minority groups have the same access to resources (legal redress, education, career opportunity, and so on)? I'm not talking about equal language in the law. I'm talking about how laws are implemented. I'm talking about the actual function of society. Do minority groups have the same access?

The answer is no. So, if you're surprised that there's an educational gap then you're not paying attention.

Much of the black community, for better or worse, remains segregated.

Does White Flight ring a bell? No? Hmm. Gerrymandering? Ah. Perhaps you should, again, remind black people that you're tooooootally okay with them living in your country. That should encourage them to integrate further.

And the integration of a minority of blacks may have come at the expense of those who have not integrated

Wait - so blacks have successfully integrated (with your permission) yet remain segregated - but their integration is hurting others? Oh my goodness. You think black people are magic. This explains so much about your remaining comments.


---those living in environments with unwed parenthood approaching 90%,

You know what helps reduce the numbers of unwed parenthood? Access to adequate sex ed, birth control, and abortions. It's funny that you mention these things specifically because ALL of these things are currently being ruled back throughout the nation. But . . . you know . . . it's the blacks?

generational poverty and so on.

Really? And so on?

But let's talk about generational poverty. I'm not sure you've adequately expressed that you are personally okay with the blacks using your things. Perhaps if you just got the message out they would suddenly find adequate education to pull themselves out of poverty while gaining adequate access to sex ed, contraception, and abortion.

Furthermore, the ability of blacks to integrate

Do you mean assimilate?

(mostly, with some remnants of racism still present) into society as a whole allows any successful blacks which may emerge from these segregated communities to "leave" and join the happier, wealthier white America.

Again . . . have you told the magical black folk that live within your universe that you are okay with them using your things? Because . . . I think that would go really far . . .

Ffs.

encrypted-tbn2.google.com
2012-06-03 10:09:31 AM  
5 votes:
These religious "schools" are child abuse.

Most stupid Republican ideas are just bad, but this will ruin thousands of kids' lives. Denying a kid education destroys the kid at the most fundamental level. It's sick.
2012-06-03 09:58:19 AM  
5 votes:
Instead of the teachers suing, parents should sue about the degradation of the quality of education in public schools due to funding being siphoned off to religious schools. Compulsory public primary education in this country is considerably older than the repub Party. Compulsory public education provided the initial training for the soldiers that won every war from the Mexican War on. Before we abandon compulsory public education I'd like to see some data on how wide-spread religious education effects our children. Are we raising up a generation of conscientious objectors? Or Lt. Calleys? Of job creators? Or welfare queens? Most likely we are raising a generation of self-satisfied mediocrities but Protestant religious indoctrination (as opposed to Catholic schools which have been around a lot longer and in greater quantities) may result in a generation of Ruby Ridge style tax evaders and social malcontents.
2012-06-03 09:43:44 AM  
5 votes:

Mr. Coffee Nerves: How else are we going to maintain profitability at our private prisons if we don't have a steady stream of raw materials?


y'know...after Citzens United you would think that people would be terrified at the idea of letting a corporation with a strong financial motive to put ALL of us into a jail cell is running around essentially unregulated.
2012-06-03 09:35:28 AM  
5 votes:
Vouchers... This f*cking retarded idea has been around for 30 years. Still hasn't stopped being f*cking retarded.
2012-06-03 01:41:21 PM  
4 votes:
Privatization, whether of the educational system, the prison system or the TSA is all about one thing: money. It's about getting more taxpayer money into the 'right' hands and out of the 'wrong' hands. It's not about efficiency or deficits or savings or lower taxes or better results. It's about profit for the few paid for by the taxes of the many.
2012-06-03 10:22:25 AM  
4 votes:

Weaver95: Mrtraveler01:
But of course Conservatives wouldn't like that because it conflicts with their true goal of teaching children Conservative orthodoxy in public schools.

i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?



Private schools have historically graduated better educated students than public schools. One reason is better finances, another is parents will spend money on a smart kid's education, but the main reason is the private system can choose their students. Public system can't do that.

/and no, vouchers will not give everyone a private-school education because if everyone is in the schools the schools won't have their edge anymore.

//i said schools too many times, it has no meaning anymore
2012-06-03 10:16:52 AM  
4 votes:
Sadly the only way to correct this behavior is to let these guys totally ruin a couple of states. The states will turn into an abysmal pit of low paid grunt labor.

The worst part will be all the innocent people damaged along the way. Generations of people with no hope of ever clawing out of the bottom of the barrel. The individuals don't deserve it.
2012-06-03 10:09:13 AM  
4 votes:

apoptotic: FTA:The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.

Cripes, they've figured out a way to get state education funding while getting rid of teachers altogether.


I know. This is a prime example of why we need some standard in education (preferably on the national level because states let stupid shiat like this fly)
2012-06-03 10:01:08 AM  
4 votes:
If you can stop them thinking whilst they are children, then once they are adults they will never question their rulers.
2012-06-03 12:51:11 PM  
3 votes:
Does "Bible Math" explain how Noah managed to fit 2 of the every 8+ million known land species onto a single boat so they wouldn't drown in a worldwide flood? 16 million animals gathered from every corner of the world ON FOOT, crammed onto one boat made of wood by hand -- what's NOT to love about that math equation?

When you're a desert-dwelling, sheep-hearing sand cult, your world is very small and you can believe this shiat. Your entire world is the valley you were born and will die in. But in the modern era, you literally have to brainwash your children and protect them from knowledge in order to keep them believing the same bullshiat.
2012-06-03 12:26:41 PM  
3 votes:

proteus_b: Fart_Machine: Education Gap Grows Between Rich and Poor, Studies Say

I'm not claiming that that gap doesn't exist. I'm claiming that middle-income blacks perform similarly to and worse than lower-income whites. Therefore income and wealth alone are not likely responsible for the black-white gap (I'm not talking about the rich-poor gap, nor denying its obvious existence). I'm also not really talking about the causes of this gap---merely pointing out its existence and nature.


According to the studies in the article, the gap between black and white students has significantly narrowed. Between differences in income is where the real gap is.
2012-06-03 12:05:42 PM  
3 votes:

The Name: BarkingUnicorn: Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?

I have no problem with childless people not paying for public schools.

As long as they're willing to give up all the benefits of publicly-funded medical care and scientific research, the FDA, the EPA, infrastructure, police, firefighters, pretty much every government service that requires a bunch of people with at least high school diplomas to provide -which is everything.


THIS. I'm getting tired of this "I don't have to pay for something if I don't notice a benefit for it" attitude. A side-effect of the right's war on education is the tunnel-vision caused by linear thinking. Somehow we've thrown the core principle of civilization out the window and replaced it with a mantra that says you are entitled to all the benefits of living in a society and all the freedom-of-choice of living outside of a society.
2012-06-03 12:00:55 PM  
3 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?


I have no problem with childless people not paying for public schools.

As long as they're willing to give up all the benefits of publicly-funded medical care and scientific research, the FDA, the EPA, infrastructure, police, firefighters, pretty much every government service that requires a bunch of people with at least high school diplomas to provide -which is everything.
2012-06-03 11:39:59 AM  
3 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: Curious: i was ask the other day why should parents with kids in private schools have to pay for public schools.

Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?


Same reason they should pay for prisons, streetlights they dont use, roads they will never drive on, mental hospitals that they will never check into and many many other things. If they dont pay for them, they will be farking eaten by one of their fellow citizens who needs those services. Its called society, its not all about just you now. If you dont like it, go join the flotilla offshore and enjoy the Andrew Ryan Dream come true.


Seriously, you, get the fark out of my country.
2012-06-03 11:21:00 AM  
3 votes:
The real goal isn't so much religious indoctrination, though that's what the fundies believe it is. The real purpose of this is to make Americans who aren't rich ignorant. They switch to vouchers, eventually public schools shut down, then the vouchers get eliminated. If you can't afford the 20k a year to send your kids to school, then they can go to work, because child labor laws will be repealed.
2012-06-03 10:22:33 AM  
3 votes:
Vouchers: a great way to get the proles to pay for your kids education at private schools, and keep them out of those same schools.
2012-06-03 10:22:23 AM  
3 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay:

How would a hypothetical religious based education "done right" look?


ask the Jews and the Catholics - they've been running private religious schools for a long time. good quality education too for that matter.
2012-06-04 02:20:46 AM  
2 votes:

proteus_b: Bontesla: The educational gap also falls along socioeconomic status

This, however, is not true.

Bontesla: In other words, the common denominator among "under-performers" is not their blackness but their distinction as being a minority group member.

This is also not true, generically. Some minority group members perform better than the average. An obvious example is Asian-Americans.


Actually, in large asian heavy areas, especially urban ones, asian americans also trend to underperform. See NYC.
2012-06-03 09:51:40 PM  
2 votes:

bigsteve3OOO: Lenny_da_Hog: bigsteve3OOO: We are talking about education. Specifically public education. It is bad. The government runs it. Why wouldn't the next logical step be the government is bad at education.

Because it isn't. The US had an enviable education system into the 1970s. Other countries have great government-run programs. Several states have supported great education systems in the past. It is possible to accomplish.

Your entire premise is false.

None of what you say (except my premise) is wrong. as a matter of fact you make my argument for me. Other countries have great programs. We up to the 1970s had one of the best. Today it sux. Why? More money has not helped. I suggest we go back to the date you suggest, 1970, and start there. Cost per student (inflation adjusted) and curriculum. Then at least we will be as good as we were 40 some odd years ago.


So, I assume what you're saying is to reinstitute institutional care facilities for the intellectually disabled and/or finding creative ways to keep kids in need of special education services out of the public school system?

Because the one HUEG change in public schooling in the 70s (which is also the one factor that tends to keep the costs per student high, as well as the money-to-graduation ratio, lower in public versus private and parochial schools) was the passage of PL 94-142 which guaranteed students with special needs the right to a free education in public schools in the US--which was passed in 1975, two years after Section 504 of the 1973 Rehabilitation Act (which was the first law in the US granting civil rights to persons with disabilities, including the right to free and appropriate schooling).

You see, up until those days, public schools more often than not refused to even admit kids with learning disabilities, kids who were considered intellectually disabled (both those who would be considered to have a genuine intellectual disability and would be defined as "mentally retarded" AND those kids who would nowadays be classified as autistic or "on the spectrum"), kids who had severe vision and/or hearing disabilities, kids who had emotional or mental disorders, and so on...pretty much in exactly the same way that PRIVATE schools more often than not refuse to admit those students nowadays, and under the same excuses (either the kid would be seen as "too disruptive to the educational environment" or the "we really don't have the funds to assist your blind/deaf/autistic/retarded/stuck-in-a-wheelchair-and-needing-speech- therapy-due-to-CP snowflake").

Oh, did I mention this wasn't just restricted to kids with cognitive or mental disabilities? They also pretty much routinely cockblocked those with PHYSICAL disabilities too--not just hearing or vision disabilities, but things like needing a wheelchair to get around, or needing speech therapy services.

No, you see, in the good old days you mention, the blind and deaf and Otherwise Perceived As Broken kids were routinely refused admission at regular public schools, and tended to be warehoused in state or county Special Ed Schools (if lucky), in correspondence schooling (if the issue was that Billy Is Seen As A Possibly Educable Gimp), or (if kid was not so lucky, which was much of the time) warehoused in facilities euphemistically referred to as Care Homes For Crippled Children or Institutional Care Facilities For The Mentally Retarded or the state mental hospital. (Yes, you're reading this right. If you were one of Jerry's Kids or had CP (but normal intelligence) or had the misfortune to get polio, you still got sent to the tardfarm school if not sent to the tardfarm in general. And no, it was not quite Katawa Shoujo, to put it nicely..)

If the kid has something like dyslexia or the like? He'd be pretty much encouraged to flunk out or drop out and go into Manual Labour. (I can actually vouch this happened in my own family--with my father, who ended up being shown the door due to difficulties reading which turned out to be (as was discovered decades later when he did get his GED) undiagnosed dyslexia.)

Now, if you seriously are talking about bring back tardfarms and insane asylums and reform schools as places to warehouse all those inconvenient Special Eds who are likely to be flat-out refused or Summarily Dismissed Very Quickly from a voucher program NOT focusing on their particular disability (and it tends to be very, very, very rare indeed that you see things like funded Charter Schools and voucher programs for those Very Expensive Private Schools For Children With Autism; typically, vouchers and charter schools are aimed at the Well In Body And Mind if not the overtly gifted and talented) so that public schools can compete with private schools, be my guest. Just DON'T be surprised at the general pickets in your direction by lots of very pissed off parents AND graduates of schools under SPED programs.
2012-06-03 02:46:05 PM  
2 votes:
I live in LA. I have two children in primary education. Additionally two friend's wives are primary school teachers and have been for close to 20 years. I've been hearing about this from them for a few months now. There have been some very shady things going on with this legislation. Please note that most of this information is coming from the friends and their wives.

First off there's the standard political money laundering going on with a family member's charity. It has large donations from companies and interestes that are regulated heavily by the LA government. Then several of the state senators who have come out against the vouchers have had their committee status revoked. There has also been some intimidation of teachers from protesting against the changes. This has been shown in filtering of school email access to teachers, harsh punishments for teachers taking off on planned protest dates and new evaluations of teachers being suddenly implemented.

I am really beginning to think that I need to get my and my family's asses out of the south.
2012-06-03 02:40:09 PM  
2 votes:

proteus_b: No, and I'm also rather skeptical of "data" showing anything in general.


So you just know in your gut that black people are the problem with our education system?

You made claims about performance on standardizes tests (without backing them up of course). How can you even attempt to make such claims if you don't accept that data can be used as evidence? How can you make any claims at all if you cannot back them up with some meaningful data that supports the claims?

This goes beyond just a weak attempt to dodge a request for you to back up your assertions. You've clearly indicated that your entire method of reasoning is to just pull things out of your ass that sound good to you and not attempt in any way to establish the validity of those claims. With your own words you have declared your own words utterly worthless.
2012-06-03 02:26:03 PM  
2 votes:

NewportBarGuy: Vouchers... This f*cking retarded idea has been around for 30 years. Still hasn't stopped being f*cking retarded.


Actually, this would be a great idea if private schools were held to the same standards as public. The problem here stems from the fact that they aren't. How the unholy hell a school with no library where students learn via DVD passed any semblance of qualification is completely beyond me, and should be corrected quickly and harshly.
2012-06-03 02:03:38 PM  
2 votes:

proteus_b: Bontesla: Again . . . have you told the magical black folk that live within your universe that you are okay with them using your things? Because . . . I think that would go really far . . .

Magical black folk? The next door neighbors on both sides of my house where I grew up are black. And except for the color of their skin, have rather little in common with poor blacks in the ghetto. My point is that blacks who are successful move out of the ghettoes and the positive role models they might have been do not exist. Well perhaps they serve as positive role models to suburban whites that blacks are not all just a bunch of gang-bangers with speed, but are actually equally capable of being successful in all walks of life. Which is good. But removing the positive role models from the black communities is probably not good for those communities.

You sound kind of hysterical. I just saw this movie about the subject.


Hysterical? You clearly do not know me. I have two moods: slightly amused and amused.

The fact is you're a racist. I'm not talking about the literal definition in which one sees a distinction among races. I'm talking about your continual suggestion that perhaps the reason for black under-performance has something to do with their blackness and your insistence on disregarding other explanations.

There's absolutely no need for me to become hysterical when chatting with a racist over the internet. Racism isn't an educational decision. Racism isn't a reasonable decision. Someone on Fark said something along the lines of, "You can't reason someone out of a thought they never reasoned themselves into."

So, in my replies to you, I don't intend on convincing you of anything. I have no interest in becoming excited over this discussion. Ultimately, you're going to leave this discussion pretty much thinking exactly what you were thinking when you entered into it.

My replies to you are to show everyone else how thin your arguments are. I worry that, if left unchallenged, some ignorant lad is going to think that the absence of a rebuttal is support of the argument.
2012-06-03 01:58:23 PM  
2 votes:
Destroying education in the state is one way to be sure they get a bumper crop of future republicans.
2012-06-03 01:06:38 PM  
2 votes:
How the hell have you guys not realized it's winterwhile yet with a 2 hour old alt?
2012-06-03 12:53:51 PM  
2 votes:

Cats_Lie: 12349876: Cats_Lie: You don't have a choice if you can't afford it. Vouchers just give the same freedom to the poor that we have always given to the rich. Why are you in favor of disadvantaging children from economically underprivileged families? What are you trying to protect?

Nope. The fancy schools will just up their price high enough above the voucher to keep the riff raff out.

So you prefer a system where the poor have exactly one choice, to rely on the government?


The poor are still dependent on the government for that voucher.
2012-06-03 12:46:52 PM  
2 votes:

Cats_Lie: You don't have a choice if you can't afford it. Vouchers just give the same freedom to the poor that we have always given to the rich. Why are you in favor of disadvantaging children from economically underprivileged families? What are you trying to protect?


Nope. The fancy schools will just up their price high enough above the voucher to keep the riff raff out.
2012-06-03 12:31:10 PM  
2 votes:
It's as though so many Americans are uneducated about how a public school system works, and there is a political party actively trying to prevent them from learning this, so voters believe that you can just privatize the whole thing and somehow robber barons won't rig the whole market for their favor and at the expense of the consumer - or in this case, the student.

So odd.
2012-06-03 12:15:38 PM  
2 votes:
So basically the folks who hate welfare want to raise a bunch of kids who will end up on welfare.

I'll say it again, just for posterity. All this ass-backwards sh*t happening in red states will lead to the almost total erosion of states rights, in all but the most token bits. When you have states full of poor, uneducated folk unqualified to do anything but unskilled labor, labor which is being further and further automated so as to not need these folks' labor, and state governments cut down and privatized, you will be left with a situation wherein the federal government will have to step in, the rest of us will have to pay more in income taxes and then the US government will dictate heavy stipulations to these states which have tried to disabuse themselves of the very concept of democratic governance. The reactionary rhetoric and policies are only serving to usher in the top-heavy, directive federal government the rubes on the right seek to avoid.
2012-06-03 12:10:51 PM  
2 votes:

proteus_b: Bontesla: The educational gap also falls along socioeconomic status

This, however, is not true.


Education Gap Grows Between Rich and Poor, Studies Say
2012-06-03 12:04:22 PM  
2 votes:
This is why I'm convinced that public education needs to be handled *entirely* by the feds.

The individual states and municipalities can't be trusted. It's too easy for Bible-thumping idiots to take over local and state school boards, and ruin an entire generation of children. Never mind that local school administrators are some of the most incompetent bureaucrats in government.

At the national level, that kind of craziness doesn't fly At least, not yet.
2012-06-03 12:02:54 PM  
2 votes:

proteus_b: Fart_Machine: You just can't facepalm hard enough here. It was illegal to teach slaves to read and write. Douglass was an escaped slave who never would have been permitted to do either while he was in the South.

It's possible to facepalm. Yes, it was illegal to educate slaves, but this was hundreds of years ago. Has black performance in school monotonically improved in the years following 1865, indicating that "it simply hasn't been long enough yet", or has black performance in school collapsed following the civil rights movement, along with the traditional black family structure?


You're mistaken if you think that "settled" anything. The educational gap also falls along socioeconomic status. There's also an educational gap among genders In fact, if you take a look at "underachieving group X" compared to achieving group "y", the odds are that group X has a history of holding a minority status in relation to a more dominant group (y).

In other words, the common denominator among "under-performers" is not their blackness but their distinction as being a minority group member.
2012-06-03 11:40:54 AM  
2 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: Curious: i was ask the other day why should parents with kids in private schools have to pay for public schools.

Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?


So... Maybe all adults should get an equal education credit derived from the school district taxes and be allowed to spend it on whatever form of education they desire. Then a couple can spend it on a better school, a childless person could further their education or take Salsa lessons, and single parents would be farked because this is GOP talk after all.
2012-06-03 11:40:42 AM  
2 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: Curious: i was ask the other day why should parents with kids in private schools have to pay for public schools.

Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?


Because they rely on having an educated populace to raise the overall standard of living.
2012-06-03 11:38:05 AM  
2 votes:
Lemme get this straight:
funneling tax dollars into a solar energy firm- bad.
Funneling tax dollars into a windowless Christian school- good.
2012-06-03 11:23:17 AM  
2 votes:

proteus_b: has black performance in school collapsed following the civil rights movement


Go back to the decade previous and you might have something.
2012-06-03 11:21:18 AM  
2 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: I suspect that most achievement differences are due to the fact that private schools can cherry-pick their students while public schools must accept all.


Ding, ding ding!

We have a winner!
2012-06-03 11:02:12 AM  
2 votes:
Are Republicans really against "set theory" in math!?
2012-06-03 10:52:56 AM  
2 votes:

NetOwl: proteus_b: Serious Black: Actually, the best school systems in the world, including Finland and South Korea, offer absolutely no school choice and have completely public school systems. If we're supposed to learn lessons from what has been accomplished in other countries, school choice is not a lesson we should be learning.

Actually, Finland and South Korea have virtually no black people, so many of our problems are not actually represented in those systems.

Fark you.

Seriously, fark you.


It might have been fair to say "Finland and South Korea are homogeneous societies with few economically or socially-challenged minorities to bring down scholastic averages." But of course that's not what he said, so your response is perfectly appropriate.

The amazing thing is, if you take the socially and economically disadvantaged, both urban and rural, out of the equation in this country, our educational system is second to none. There is a reason why Microsoft, IBM, Apple, Facebook, Adobe and scores of other innovative business concerns were founded in this country and not, say, France. There's a reason why students come from all over the world to attend American colleges and universities and not the other way around. Our educational system kicks ass and takes names. The repub program of undercutting an institution that has made America the greatest nation in the history of the universe, militarily, economically, socially and politically, beggars the imagination in terms of foolishness and the triumph of ideology over common sense. These people are retarded, and they want everyone else to be retarded too.
2012-06-03 10:46:01 AM  
2 votes:

DrewCurtisJr: Weaver95: what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so?

It can be less expensive, provide a better education, and gives parents a choice in how their kids are educated.


Look at the results from Connecticut. Connecticut had a great Charter school program. It was radical until the companies began co-opting them. The charter school system came into place in Connecticut because they said they could provide an excellent education for way less money...and this year they were crying poor. They discovered they COULD NOT provide a better education for less money.
2012-06-03 10:30:31 AM  
2 votes:
It used to be: It's Freshman Year - Jim is being put on the the college-prep track, Bill is being put on the industrial arts track.

Soon it will be: It's First Grade - Br*yed&n is going to Hedge Fund Academy, Bill is being "apprenticed" to a tannery.
2012-06-03 10:26:47 AM  
2 votes:

tomWright: Private schools have been successfully funded in Europe, (Britain and...Finland I think?, maybe others), but there have been some notable controversies. Mostly from Islamic schools from what I have seen reported, though problems from fundy schools from any religion would not surprise me.

Giving parents choice is a good thing. Pandering to anti-science creationists, Dominionists, and other religious nuts is not.
So long as separating education from religion can be done, OK. But in the US, and fundy-run states especially, I think there will be serious problems doing that.


Actually, the best school systems in the world, including Finland and South Korea, offer absolutely no school choice and have completely public school systems. If we're supposed to learn lessons from what has been accomplished in other countries, school choice is not a lesson we should be learning.
2012-06-03 10:21:28 AM  
2 votes:
FTFA: At Eternity Christian Academy in Westlake, pastor-turned-principal Marie Carrier hopes to secure extra space to enroll 135 voucher students, though she now has room for just a few dozen. Her first- through eighth-grade students sit in cubicles for much of the day and move at their own pace through Christian workbooks, such as a beginning science text that explains "what God made" on each of the six days of creation. They are not exposed to the theory of evolution.

"We try to stay away from all those things that might confuse our children," Carrier said.


FTFA: The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.

This is the outcome that I'm supposed to believe is better than public schools? This?

I'm sure the smarter of the right-wing shills will say that this is just cherry-picking the data, that these are a few bad apples, the rest of the voucher schools are totally awesomesauce and furthermore, BUT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY DO TO DECLARE THAT PUBLIC SCHOOLS SUCK DONKEY SCROTA. They pick the absolute worst of the inner-city schools run by retards to declare that public education is a broken concept, and then point to the best of the private institutions in the wealthiest districts as the proof-of-concept for private enterprise education.

Fark that noise. This country is where it is today because we actually taught our children in a systematic way as a society. Here's a conundrum for those Golden Age conservative dumbfarks out there: if the best days of this country were back in the past some time when Jesus was Lord of the schools, then WHY DOESN'T THE SUPPOSED 1895 HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATION TEST SAY ANYTHING ABOUT JESUS?

Sorry for the capslock, I'm in a pissy mood today.
2012-06-03 10:09:19 AM  
2 votes:
FTFA: Her first- through eighth-grade students sit in cubicles for much of the day and move at their own pace through Christian workbooks, such as a beginning science text that explains "what God made" on each of the six days of creation. They are not exposed to the theory of evolution.

"We try to stay away from all those things that might confuse our children," Carrier said.


Preparing them for later life?
2012-06-03 10:07:21 AM  
2 votes:
FTA:The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.

Cripes, they've figured out a way to get state education funding while getting rid of teachers altogether.
2012-06-03 10:07:18 AM  
2 votes:

0Icky0: The South will never rise again.


I am less optimistic. If they do rise again, it will be on the backs of stupid, indoctrinated god warriors that will be convinced that everything they do is a-okay since they are on God's side. Essentially, a christian jihadist.

/iwantoffthisplanet.jpg
2012-06-03 10:00:30 AM  
2 votes:

clambam: Most likely we are raising a generation of self-satisfied mediocrities but Protestant religious indoctrination (as opposed to Catholic schools which have been around a lot longer and in greater quantities) may result in a generation of Ruby Ridge style tax evaders and social malcontents.


The true goal of Conservatives it seems.
2012-06-03 09:59:25 AM  
2 votes:

Weaver95:
i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?


I reckon "Government=BAD" dogma is the official line.
2012-06-03 09:53:50 AM  
2 votes:
I like this idea:

In the Netherlands, the government funds "bijzondere" ("special") schools, which are run by independent non-profit boards, on the condition that they charge no more tuition than public schools do and otherwise abide by practically the same rules as public schools. Parents are free to choose any public or special school for their children, although in some urban areas, such as Amsterdam, admissions procedures do exist. Many, but not all, special schools are religious in nature. The system arose after a prolonged political battle between religious and secular political parties, and is considered a political third rail even today. The emergence of Islamic schools is putting the issue back into the spotlight, though. Any voucher proposals in the Netherlands, and countries with similar systems such as Belgium, are complicated by the historical background of the "school struggle". For a more detailed discussion, see Hooker in 'Bibliography'.

But of course Conservatives wouldn't like that because it conflicts with their true goal of teaching children Conservative orthodoxy in public schools.
2012-06-03 09:33:03 AM  
2 votes:

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

I would love to see a bio text that refutes denies evolution; that's gotta be some grade-A comedy. Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?


Five cubits plus two cubits equals Republican Jesus.
2012-06-03 09:25:42 AM  
2 votes:
The Republican War on Education continues.

Children should be confused when they learn. It means they're thinking. You should be aiming for that "ah-ha!" moment when they are no longer confused, not trying to hide them from it.
2012-06-04 10:31:11 AM  
1 votes:

TV's Vinnie: shpritz: Weaver95:
i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?

I reckon "Government=BAD" dogma is the official line.

Seeing as how "the government" has thwarted conservatives on everything from legal slavery to Jim Crow, it's no wonder why they hate those meddling kids the federal government so much.

And yes, I am fully expecting the day to arrive when some dickslap on Fox News is going to bring up the subject of bringing back slavery. We already live in these unthinkable times where domestic surveillance and even torture has been made legal. I'm sure that slope has been well lubricated with loads of WD-40 by now and someone's gonna say "Hey! Instead of giving them welfare, why don't we just put chains on all these deadbeat n*ggers and sell them?".


Last year the talking point for a couple weeks was that only landowners with X acres should be able to vote, since "they're the only one's with skin in the game." In the span of about a week I heard the teabagger say that, so I started listening to some AM windbags. Heard it from Limbaugh and Levin, then I saw it on FOX when I went to visit the folks. Unthinkable times is right. This is the stuff we've been working away from for 200 years. Now we've suddenly got a massive propaganda machine fooling almost half of us into wanting to go back to these times we've fought so hard to break away from.
2012-06-04 08:25:19 AM  
1 votes:

James F. Campbell: dickfreckle: NEwsflash - I'm too drunk to operate this newfangled lapamotop.

Well, it's only Monday morning.


"In these trying economic times" I took a night gig tending bar two nights per. Made $275 and dry-humped a cocktail waitress.

Sometimes life sucks. Sometimes it shines a turd to an emerald. I mean, $275 just to sling martinis and car bombs? The only down side is that I have to show up Tuesday to my "legit" job and somehow justify it.

/off to bed
2012-06-04 07:43:04 AM  
1 votes:

dickfreckle: NEwsflash - I'm too drunk to operate this newfangled lapamotop.


Well, it's only Monday morning.
2012-06-04 06:05:48 AM  
1 votes:
NEwsflash - I'm too drunk to operate this newfangled lapamotop.

I will shut up now.

/goddammitsomuch
2012-06-04 06:03:30 AM  
1 votes:

James F. Campbell: dickfreckle: We're . . . too farking weird to die.

Until the city is finally engulfed by a combination of rising oceans and unfortunately-aimed hurricanes. Everything dies, even hedonists.


True. Please allow to veer off-course for a moment:

Does anyone in this room believe that the victims of the eventual San Andrea's fiasco will be painted solely by the actions of the cities' most desperate citizens? Does anyone believe that there won't be another Heineken guy? The chief rub among New Orleanians is that the media ran a bullsh*t narrative while ignoring the fact the mass exodus' plight. We were left with dicks in breezes while the nation was fascinated by the sort of drama that would happen in your major city, provided it was plunged in chaos.

But I still can't imagine anyone not being in favor of rebuilding California.

More to the point, will anyone
2012-06-04 05:03:15 AM  
1 votes:

dickfreckle: We're . . . too farking weird to die.


Until the city is finally engulfed by a combination of rising oceans and unfortunately-aimed hurricanes. Everything dies, even hedonists.
2012-06-04 03:57:52 AM  
1 votes:

dickfreckle: Warning - do not track a Westbank girl into your own home, no matter how cute she is.


I meant to edit this out because it sounds douchey. Westbank girls are OK. It just just seems like I can't cross the farking bridge without some sort of drama that would have been epic, if not for being so stupid.

/dude, they charge you a dollar to leave
//was recently drunk in Algiers; had a blast
2012-06-04 03:52:54 AM  
1 votes:

Mrtraveler01: dickfreckle: At least we have New Orleans, which will always be one of quirkiest, most unique, and wildly social liberal cities in the country.

I love New Orleans too but it seems like once you cross from Orleans Parrish to Jefferson Parrish, the derp turns up just a little and keeps going up the further you get from NOLA.

That or just go across the lake to St. Tammany Parish which seems like derp with money.


Quite true. And that's why I never leave the city unless I need something from a big-box store. And I go to the Westbank, which is not only closer, but somewhat less derptastic. Warning - do not track a Westbank girl into your own home, no matter how cute she is.

Anyway, Jefferson and the Northshore are like any other hamlets of homogenized bullshiat

in America. And hey, that's why I never go to Kenner to eat or get drunk. I don't even like cabbing through the place en route to the airport. But they can never touch New Orleans. We're too infamous, too entrenched in lore and pop culture, and just too farking weird to die.

We'll always be this way. And as long as we are, people seeking refuge from red state BS but fearing the clusterfark of California or the climate of Vermont will always find a home here.

Austin has their "keep Austin weird" slogan to remind people that they're in a red state, and that's great. But New Orleans has been bizarre since any point traceable in history, and she's always gonna belong to us. She's the world's most infamous whore.

/kinda drunk, sorry
2012-06-04 03:30:31 AM  
1 votes:

Bigdogdaddy: Public school sucks. This however won't help those in rural communities that don't have a large private school to send their kids to. I personally am glad that I have to no longer deal with public schools.


The answer is obviously to privatize school, rather than improve the public school system.
2012-06-03 10:55:19 PM  
1 votes:

shpritz: Weaver95:
i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?

I reckon "Government=BAD" dogma is the official line.


Seeing as how "the government" has thwarted conservatives on everything from legal slavery to Jim Crow, it's no wonder why they hate those meddling kids the federal government so much.

And yes, I am fully expecting the day to arrive when some dickslap on Fox News is going to bring up the subject of bringing back slavery. We already live in these unthinkable times where domestic surveillance and even torture has been made legal. I'm sure that slope has been well lubricated with loads of WD-40 by now and someone's gonna say "Hey! Instead of giving them welfare, why don't we just put chains on all these deadbeat n*ggers and sell them?".
2012-06-03 10:49:46 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?


1. Get rid of public education.

2. Start whining that the cost of school vouchers is draining our national budget and threatening our ability to give more tax cuts for the rich. Start demanding budget cuts.

3. Profit (if you're already filthy rich)
2012-06-03 10:06:45 PM  
1 votes:

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."



It doesn't matter. People who want to believe will just find some other tenuous bullshiat to attribute the failure to.

Supply side economics is as clearly demonstrated and unequivocal a disaster as you can find and yet people still gobble it up with a spoon while blaming its failures on whatever convenient scapegoat they can find standing near by... or worse yet, chalk the failure up on the fact that we just haven't gone far enough.

It's like this "accomplishments" page on GOP.com:

Link

They claim credit for every positive thing in American history by digging around to find whatever tenuous Republican connection they can find.


"The Voting Rights Act

Congressional page, young Republican Willis Hawthorne, delivered the Voting Rights Act documents from congress to the White House to be signed into law."
2012-06-03 10:04:17 PM  
1 votes:

Great Porn Dragon: bigsteve3OOO: Lenny_da_Hog: bigsteve3OOO: (GENERAL IDIOCY)

Your entire premise is false. (AWESOMENESS)


*slow clap with the deepest respect*

Thank you for saying what needed to be said.
2012-06-03 09:09:23 PM  
1 votes:
As a Louisiana resident, all I have to say is the Bobby Jindal is a cancer and an idiot and if he runs for higher office you should work hard to oppose him and any policy he promotes.
2012-06-03 09:08:43 PM  
1 votes:

beta_plus: Mrtraveler01: Weaver95: Mr. Coffee Nerves: How else are we going to maintain profitability at our private prisons if we don't have a steady stream of raw materials?

y'know...after Citzens United you would think that people would be terrified at the idea of letting a corporation with a strong financial motive to put ALL of us into a jail cell is running around essentially unregulated.

They can be like Florida and create for-profit charter schools run by corrupt real estate developers

Link

How much do they make the children have forced semen tasting tests compared to your precious unionized public schools?


What the holy fark is wrong with you? Seriously. You need help, dude.
2012-06-03 08:59:15 PM  
1 votes:
Hmm, education vouchers for private schools in the South. . . Where have I heard that idea before?

In 1956, the Virginia General Assembly passed a series of laws known as the Stanley plan to implement massive resistance. One of these laws created a program of "tuition grants" which could be given to students so they could attend a private school of their choice. In practice, this meant support of all-white schools that appeared as a response to forced integration, and these newly formed schools became known as the "segregation academies."

When faced with an order to integrate, Prince Edward County closed its entire school system in September 1959 rather than integrate. The county kept its entire school system closed until 1964. Many white students were able to get educated at the newly-created Prince Edward Academy, which operated as the de facto school system, enrolling K-12 students at a number of facilities throughout the county. Even after the re-opening of the public schools, the Academy remained segregated, losing its tax-exempt status in 1978.

Although on January 19, 1959, the Virginia Supreme Court of Appeals struck down the linchpin of the Massive Resistance laws, the one closing schools about to be integrated,[9] individual state tuition grants to parents allowed them to fund the segregation academies. It was not until 1964 that the U.S. Supreme Court outlawed Virginia's tuition grants to private education where the public schools had been closed, such as in Prince Edward County.[10]

Link
2012-06-03 08:41:47 PM  
1 votes:

bigsteve3OOO: We are talking about education. Specifically public education. It is bad. The government runs it. Why wouldn't the next logical step be the government is bad at education.


Because it isn't. The US had an enviable education system into the 1970s. Other countries have great government-run programs. Several states have supported great education systems in the past. It is possible to accomplish.

Your entire premise is false.
2012-06-03 08:03:47 PM  
1 votes:

bigsteve3OOO: All one has to do is compare the {graduation rates/ teacher salaries/ administration costs} to realize that public education is an absolute and complete failure. Perhaps another solution is needed as the public unions are unwilling to change the current system.


Yeah, well, private schools have a lot of built in advantages. It's easier to kick the bad kids out, they can be more selective about who they let in, and the students come mainly from wealthier families. Most private schools can rely on large donations from wealthy alumni for funds. Catholic schools have a work-force filled with women who have dedicated their entire lives to teaching; they have no families, never take maternity leave, and most live in a communal living space. Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough nuns in America to take over the public school system.
2012-06-03 07:28:13 PM  
1 votes:

Bontesla: Do you have a picture of what a misguided dildo may look like?


Have you tried

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&biw=&bih=&q=vibrator+x+ra y

/Wouldn't suggest doing it from work (and remember to take out the spaces that Fark injects into the URL)
2012-06-03 06:41:46 PM  
1 votes:
stop talking to that asshole and /ignore it.
2012-06-03 06:26:03 PM  
1 votes:

masterone41: DC public schools are spending about $24,600 per pupil this school year - roughly $10,000 more than the average for area private schools.

Just the Facts


Citation needed. With the special needs eliminated. They inflate the stats big time.
2012-06-03 06:20:43 PM  
1 votes:

StoneColdAtheist: pdee:

FWIW, here in Cali you can send your kid to any school you like, even none at all ("home schooling"). But if they don't have a proper grounding in math and science, along with lit and history, the public colleges and universities don't have to admit them. So kids, believe whatever nonsense you like, but you'd better be able to explain evolution in modern terms, and know the difference between meiosis and mitosis, among other basic scientific concepts.


What California does is good (for those unaware--the three most common "educational" packages used in dominionist private schools and "homeschool" correspondence-school programs (A Beka, Bob Jones University, and ACE/School of Tomorrow) are considered to be SO educationally insufficient re their science, mathematics, and US and world history content that someone SOLELY educated with those curricula is inadmissible to the California public university system).

I'd personally like to go one step further, though--I'm with those folks who feel there should be a national criteria for "educationally sufficient" material that is published (basically solid education on the level of public or good, non-dominionist parochial or private schools--the Episcopalian, Catholic and Jewish school systems being examples, of course adjusted to the developmental level of a student) and that a student taught entirely from correspondence-school or private-school material that does not meet these standards should be considered legally truant.

(This actually DID used to be the case, as an aside, and STILL does on occasion happen--ACE/School of Tomorrow and Bill Gothard's "homeschool" curricula are probably the most frequent offenders in this case, with students being taught solely with these programs occasionally considered to be subject to educational neglect.)

Conversely, private schools and legitimate homeschoolers could keep a semester-long plan or log detailing lesson plans (or, in the case of homeschooling, what was done to meet this educational goal) so long as it's education suitable to the developmental level of the kid (nobody is expecting a child with an IQ of 40 to master precalculus, but teaching about basic life skills and basic mathematics and science to the level of a normal school ECE program isn't unexpected).

And the reason I note "Basic standards appropriate to educational level equivalent to those in a public school, appropriate to the developmental level of the child"--worded in this manner, this could keep folks engaging in legitimate homeschooling safe (for example, folks who are raising kids with special needs that the public school system can't provide for)--for example, for science requirements for study of evolutionary science, they could note how they read books on evolution, went on trips to science museums, and so on)--the main difference, and this is actually not even a difference in a lot of states, would be that a homeschooling parent keeps an educational log for the semester to show their education is "educationally sufficient to the developmental stage of the child".

So this way, folks who use legitimate private education or home education could teach their kids, and it should hopefully weed out the dominionist correspondence-schoolers and "private Christian school" operators.

(And yes, I know this functionally means that EVERY child would have an IEP or equivalent. I'm not entirely sure this is a bad idea, to be honest.)

Another issue that is VERY likely in play with these Louisiana schools, and which California's new "minimum standards for public university entry" covers, is the fact that most dominionist schools get their accreditation from what amount to accreditation mills--they just give statements on what curricula they use, sign a statement of faith, pay money (and in cases where state accreditation mills operate, sometimes not even money other than a yearly membership fee) and they get "accredited"--and some states exempt private religious schools from accreditation altogether, especially in the Southeast.

(In the case of California, the same note that blocks folks using ONLY dominionist curricula also effectively considers any school accredited by ACSI--one of the larger dominionist "accreditation mills" targeting pre-collegiate education--to be, for all intents and purposes, unaccredited for purposes of admission to the state college system. This is actually becoming more common, as Michigan is another state that pretty much has officially listed ACSI as an accreditation mill...)
2012-06-03 06:16:16 PM  
1 votes:

The Name: IlGreven: Don't Troll Me Bro!: We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

20 years ago, we did just that. Now, we're saying to Louisiana, "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Mississippi."

Or, in other words, we failed.

There's always one or two slow learners in the class. The important thing is that the rest of us doesn't look like Mississippi.


And in 20 years, the rest of us won't look like Mississippi or Louisiana.

We'll look like Texas.

Which is almost as bad.
2012-06-03 04:48:50 PM  
1 votes:

Bontesla: While I have not done ANY research on this . . . I suspect that Republicans are more homogenous and Democrats are more heterogeneous. So, Republicans may not be more religious - they may be simply more in consensus. It's easy to legislate when everyone on your aside agrees.


Not sure what sense of "homogenous" you're using here; probably racial? Whacking the GSS, the relation looks a little more complicated.

The foremost trend is that blacks lean democratic. (Massively, such that any other trend is hard to detect with the sample sizes and fraction of US that's black.) Among whites, those who identify more strongly as religious, tend to identify more strongly with whatever their party is; but the more religious tend disproportionately more republican.
2012-06-03 03:55:23 PM  
1 votes:

beta_plus: You mean that retarded idea that we got from Denmark and Sweden.


So since they are infallible guides to success, you support implementing the Swedish health care system and retirement plans as well? Or are you merely emptily spewing talking points because thinking is physically painful for you?
2012-06-03 03:44:47 PM  
1 votes:

Mr. Coffee Nerves: How else are we going to maintain profitability at our private prisons if we don't have a steady stream of raw materials?



flaglerlive.com

feelingloquacious.com

Q: How do you turn a poor person into $100,000 a year?

A: Throw them in prison.
2012-06-03 03:32:00 PM  
1 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Weaver95: well...done well, I don't have any philosophical objection to a religious based education - it CAN work, if done right.

How would a hypothetical religious based education "done right" look?


I went to an Episcopal school for a while. There was two hours of religion classes with the priest a week (Bible study, church history, comparative religion or philosophy of religion depending on your year), and one sermon in chapel a week. And that was it. The rest of the curriculum could've been found at any good Jewish or Catholic or non-religious school in the country. That's religious education done right.
2012-06-03 03:09:32 PM  
1 votes:

pdee:
i1.ytimg.com


Me too. After all, the world continues to need truck drivers, ditch diggers and hamburger flippers. If you send your children to a "school" that teaches them a bunch of fairy tales masquerading as an education, don't come whining to me (or the courts) about how unfair life turns out to be.

FWIW, here in Cali you can send your kid to any school you like, even none at all ("home schooling"). But if they don't have a proper grounding in math and science, along with lit and history, the public colleges and universities don't have to admit them. So kids, believe whatever nonsense you like, but you'd better be able to explain evolution in modern terms, and know the difference between meiosis and mitosis, among other basic scientific concepts.
2012-06-03 03:05:47 PM  
1 votes:

proteus_b: Bontesla: (NSHRC, Participant's Handbook, Diversity Training - Train the Trainer, July 2004)

pardon my ignorance of "the diversity handbook", our klatch spilt koffee on ours before i was able to get a look at it.

merriam-webster lists "a part of a population differing from others in some characteristics and often subjected to differential treatment". are jews a minority? how about snake-handling hillbillies?


*lol* I wasn't criticizing your ignorance of the handbook. I was criticizing your suggestion that perhaps Minority Group is a tautology. The definition isn't as ambiguous as you're trying to paint it.
2012-06-03 03:01:59 PM  
1 votes:

proteus_b: bontesla

thanks for the links. but my very basic understanding of the articles is that they conclude that while SES (socio-economic status---by the way what kind of journal allows you to use an acronym without defining it???) is correlated with achievement, that it's believed that other factors actually cause the SES gap and achievement gap, therefore creating a false illusion that SES is causing the achievement gap. perhaps i am misinterpreting the findings. i believe that both can be factors. as the reference of fartmachine indicated, wealthy families may be spending up to nine times (or more) on educational materials. obviously a kid who takes an SAT prep course will have an advantage over one who doesn't. however, i contend that other factors are at play---my youngest sister taught herself to read at age three---this cannot be attributed to better schooling, but the presence of reading materials and a nurturing environment were most likely beneficial (of course this is an anecdote which proves nothing, but i'm just saying....)

/course now the younger sister is a radical man-hating feminist who majored in womens' studies


I took some womens' study courses. They were . . . interesting . . .

But back to the topic at hand - I do think that's exactly the point. We've made good education a profitable venture. The HSES family has access to resources the LSES and MSES families don't. There isn't a legitimate reason for not providing SAT-tutors to all students and have that price be income contingent (or hell, free, let's make education free goddammit).

If adequate education isn't a basic right in this country - or if our definition of "adequate education" is too generous - then we're going to have achievement gaps.
2012-06-03 02:54:51 PM  
1 votes:

Jacobin: I've skimmed through some of the 6th grade ABECA school "books". They are beyond appalling.

It's literally as if the kids are listening to a sermon from Pat Robertson on history and science. At first I thought it was some kind of joke or spoof. It's not.

It's the extreme right wing's "final solution" to have this generation become the followers and participants in the emerging Dark Ages


Yup. As I mentioned above, I had to "learn" from those books. Our seventh-grade science textbook had an entire chapter dedicated to debunking evolution and had bible verses interspersed throughout the text, and -I will never forget this- our history textbook said something to this effect about the AIDS epidemic of the 1980s: "The fact that heterosexuals and even newborn children began to contract AIDS shows just how bad our world's sexual immorality had become since the sexual revolution."
2012-06-03 02:27:14 PM  
1 votes:
I've skimmed through some of the 6th grade ABECA school "books". They are beyond appalling.

It's literally as if the kids are listening to a sermon from Pat Robertson on history and science. At first I thought it was some kind of joke or spoof. It's not.

It's the extreme right wing's "final solution" to have this generation become the followers and participants in the emerging Dark Ages
2012-06-03 02:07:25 PM  
1 votes:

proteus_b: Fart_Machine: If what you say is correct then poor whites would be vastly outperforming their black counterparts and that isn't the case.

Why vastly?

Christ, I entered the thread with a snarky comment but when everyone pushes one way I feel inclined to push back another way. I believe that the black-white performance gap, whatever its magnitude (vast, not vast) is not fully explained by income gaps. I think this is well borne out by data and no one has contradicted this (the article you posted doesn't really have enough information, and that clearly wasn't the intent of the study, but rather why the rich-poor performance gap is growing, and what is causing that). Instead, people are implying that I am racist, which is rather bizarre. I'm as liberal as can be in matters of race.


When you argue that black integration has been bad for other people - what is one to think?
2012-06-03 01:16:37 PM  
1 votes:

dababler: Wyalt Derp: dababler: Are Republicans really against "set theory" in math!?

Anything that's "just a theory" doesn't belong in the Republican classroom, only facts, from the Bible (or other documents by the same author, eg the Constitution).

But, set theory is totally not really a "theory". WTF I'm tired of people who are not scholars in a subject deciding what's best taught in said subject.


I think it's fallout from the "New Math" fad of 40 years ago. Never mind that it was largely abandoned 35 years ago (please correct me if I'm mistaken about that, somebody), the fact that once upon a time there was a math curriculum that started with set theory means they must never. mention. set. theory. again.

Demonizing Set Theory hews closely to the right-wing narrative about unionized teachers and liberal bureaucrats experimentin' with our kids. See the phonics debate for more of that.
2012-06-03 01:12:28 PM  
1 votes:

proteus_b: Fart_Machine: Education Gap Grows Between Rich and Poor, Studies Say

I'm not claiming that that gap doesn't exist.


Bontesla: The educational gap also falls along socioeconomic status

Your reply: This, however, is not true.

Someone linked evidence supporting my comment. And now you're trying to explain that, "This, however, is not true" did not refer to the quoted comment.

proteus_ I'm claiming that middle-income blacks perform similarly to and worse than lower-income whites. Therefore income and wealth alone are not likely responsible for the black-white gap (I'm not talking about the rich-poor gap, nor denying its obvious existence). I'm also not really talking about the causes of this gap---merely pointing out its existence and nature.

You're doing more than that. You're also arguing that there isn't a legitimate reason for the achievement gap. You've said that you're letting them live in your country, they want to stay segregated, and that their integration is bad (because, "and so on").

When I pointed out that the achievement gap blacks experience when compared to whites is very similar to the achievement gaps experienced by many other groups holding a minority status - your response is, "But, but, but . . . I just want to talk about black people. I don't want to think about the other stuff."
2012-06-03 01:11:32 PM  
1 votes:

jayhawk88: apoptotic: FTA:The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.

Cripes, they've figured out a way to get state education funding while getting rid of teachers altogether.

So, basically, college-prep courses for future LSU Tigers?


Probably not - most colleges won't accept a diploma from a high school without a library - they wouldn't consider the place accreditted.
2012-06-03 01:05:22 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: NetOwl: These religious "schools" are child abuse.

Most stupid Republican ideas are just bad, but this will ruin thousands of kids' lives. Denying a kid education destroys the kid at the most fundamental level. It's sick.

well...done well, I don't have any philosophical objection to a religious based education - it CAN work, if done right.

what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so? how can we be sure that a private company can do the job better? how do we even measure 'better'? what choices will poor kids be given under this new system of education, and how will it be paid for?


It's not about measuring "better" and you know it. These assholes just want to indoctrinate children into their closed-minded worldview. Period. There's nothing more to it. If it was about religious freedom, they'd be OK with Islamic schools in the US. If it was about a better education, then they wouldn't be using science texts that don't even mention evolution.
2012-06-03 01:04:06 PM  
1 votes:

masterone41: El Freak: Cats_Lie: You don't have a choice if you can't afford it. Vouchers just give the same freedom to the poor that we have always given to the rich. Why are you in favor of disadvantaging children from economically underprivileged families? What are you trying to protect?

Funny how in right wing Fundie logic, that doesn't apply to healthcare.

/Feeding the troll.

actually it would apply to healthcare, very nicely

Total Gov out of deciding everything, give poor folks vouchers, wow, you do know the winning formula


The question is will those voucher be sufficient in covering the cost of health care.

But you don't give a shiat anyway right winterwhile?
2012-06-03 01:00:28 PM  
1 votes:

masterone41: Portia: masterone41: So which system wins the Spelling Bee every year?

its not the public one

Are spelling bee accomplishments the best measurement of overall academic performance of students?

lets check

Open to every one

No Government involvement

I say yes


Account created: 2012-06-02 10:07:58

Oh man there is going to be a flood of these retards until November.
2012-06-03 12:58:57 PM  
1 votes:

proteus_b: Bontesla: The educational gap also falls along socioeconomic status

This, however, is not true.


encrypted-tbn2.google.com


Bontesla: In other words, the common denominator among "under-performers" is not their blackness but their distinction as being a minority group member.

This is also not true, generically. Some minority group members perform better than the average. An obvious example is Asian-Americans.


I said: the common denominator among "under-performers" is not their blackness but their distinction as being a minority group member.

What you think I said: All minorities under-perform.
2012-06-03 12:56:35 PM  
1 votes:

Cats_Lie: 12349876: Cats_Lie: You don't have a choice if you can't afford it. Vouchers just give the same freedom to the poor that we have always given to the rich. Why are you in favor of disadvantaging children from economically underprivileged families? What are you trying to protect?

Nope. The fancy schools will just up their price high enough above the voucher to keep the riff raff out.

So you prefer a system where the poor have exactly one choice, to rely on the government?


Voucher systems also rely on the government. Or are you one of these people who wants to keep the government out of Medicare?
2012-06-03 12:53:51 PM  
1 votes:

NetOwl: Weaver95: NetOwl: These religious "schools" are child abuse.

Most stupid Republican ideas are just bad, but this will ruin thousands of kids' lives. Denying a kid education destroys the kid at the most fundamental level. It's sick.

well...done well, I don't have any philosophical objection to a religious based education - it CAN work, if done right.

what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so? how can we be sure that a private company can do the job better? how do we even measure 'better'? what choices will poor kids be given under this new system of education, and how will it be paid for?

I'm not objecting to all religious schools (at least not here). We all know the stereotypical Academy Of St. So-and-So, the patron saint of slapping kids with rulers. That can produce educated, responsible, philosophically astute adults. I suspect that being exposed to Catholic theology class can even act as a sort of history lesson as kids move on to the kinds of thought that replaced scholasticism.

Catholic schools force kids to think, even if the thinking is often a rebellion against the Catholic teachings. They also manage to keep the religious stuff separate from the regular subjects, so the kids don't end up woefully ignorant.


What scares me is the way these fundamentalist schools that take pride in propagating ideas that are wrong. I've seen kids who went through this kind of system before, and they were dangerously close to being lost causes. Even if they weren't, they were already behind their peers in basically everything (except for spelling).

Being that far behind when you're in high school means you can't catch up. You're denied opportunities, such as the opportuniy to go to a good college.


Yup. I'm a product of one of those fundamentalist schools, but fortunately I've recovered since leaving for public school, and then college, and then graduate school, over ten years ago.

I've never attended a Catholic school, but from what I've seen, you're right about this. Most the people I've known who went to Catholic school -many of whom are still practicing Catholics- have active intellects and are conversant with the world's various bodies of knowledge. They have no problem talking about things like evolution and gay culture and other things that one might think would be absolutely taboo to Catholics. To them, it's just another thing in the world to learn about.

Now, my old fundie friends from middle school . . . *sigh* . . . I'm pretty sure most of them still don't believe in evolution and still think the Founding Fathers were a bunch of fundies just like them. I can't imagine that any of them are very well-read, unless we're talking about C.S. Lewis and the Left Behind series. Global warming? No, God wouldn't allow that to happen. Most of them have gone on to college (of course -it was a private school), but I think I'm the only one who has gone into academia.

And it's funny that you bring up spelling, because spelling and grammar were the only English instruction we had. Sure, we read short stories that taught biblical morals and stuff, but it wasn't until I went to public school in 10th grade that I actually started studying *literature*. Again, I like to think I've caught up and recovered by now at least.

So yeah, I guess the moral of my little story here is that not all religiously-based schooling is bad, just fundie religiously-based schooling.
2012-06-03 12:52:12 PM  
1 votes:

Salt Lick Steady: Mrtraveler01: But the argument is that the reason Charter Schools have better scores than public schools is because Charter Schools have the luxury to pick and choose who can attend in order to boost up the score. Which is a luxury, public schools don't have.

No. Florida law does NOT allow charters to pick and choose whom they accept.


The point is in that some states charters do not have to accept a kid who has been expelled from his/her previous school, thus alleviating themselves of some of the worst troublemakers. That allows them a certain level of choice that a regular public school is not permitted to have. I don't know the case in Florida.
2012-06-03 12:51:35 PM  
1 votes:

proteus_b: Fart_Machine: According to the studies in the article, the gap between black and white students has significantly narrowed. Between differences in income is where the real gap is.

Yes, you are right, both of those are true. However perhaps what has happened is that the educational gap per wealth gap has grown, while the percentage of blacks who are poor has shrunk. Thus, it is possible (as has been reported in other studies) that there is a black-white gap which exists even after controlling for income/wealth. E.g. that lower-class whites may outperform middle-class blacks in standardized tests.


You keep wanting to focus on the race aspect here. Black and white students are about on par with each other. If what you say is correct then poor whites would be vastly outperforming their black counterparts and that isn't the case.
2012-06-03 12:45:46 PM  
1 votes:

proteus_b: However perhaps what has happened is that the educational gap per wealth gap has grown, while the percentage of blacks who are poor has shrunk. Thus, it is possible (as has been reported in other studies) that there is a black-white gap which exists even after controlling for income/wealth. E.g. that lower-class whites may outperform middle-class blacks in standardized tests.


However, perhaps what is happening is that you just keep moving the goalposts to make sure that blacks are less intelligent than whites. I think that's far more likely int his instance.
2012-06-03 12:41:42 PM  
1 votes:

Cats_Lie: forgotmydamnusername:
It's based on "infallible market" doctrine. Competition must make everything better, always. Never mind that competition can in fact lead to forms of inefficiency and perverse incentives where and when applied inappropriately. Never mind that where vouchers have been tried, as in Washington DC, they haven't improved educational outcomes.



Speaking of free market inefficiencies, what do you think happens when someone has a MONOPOLY? Such as public education.

Vouchers = choice.

You can't force people to make the "right choice," which is what government does when it forces you to send your kid to a public school, learn that the gay lifestyle is normal, and that people descended from monkeys.

Seems the only "choice" that liberals are interested in is the choice to terminate an innocent life, or the choice to stick your peepee in a poo hole.


Nice lie there. It sure would work out if private schools hadn't existed for, oh, I don't know, the entire history of the United States. And if some of those private schools weren't known as the most prestigious and exclusive of all the schools in the country.

There has always been a choice. There hasn't ever been a monopoly. If you have a problem with the public school in you area, again, there are ways to take up that issue. I didn't say it was an easy one but since you seem to believe charter schools are a choice and by that criterion alone makes them better, I don't take it you have a great attention to details.
2012-06-03 12:39:46 PM  
1 votes:

DrewCurtisJr: BarkingUnicorn: I suspect that most achievement differences are due to the fact that private schools can cherry-pick their students while public schools must accept all.

Only very poor students are eligible for vouchers and private schools that participate in the school choice program.


I find it hard to believe that only very poor students are eligible for vouchers. Students in poorly performing schools, perhaps. And yes, I'm aware of the correlation between poverty and academics.
2012-06-03 12:38:40 PM  
1 votes:

DrewCurtisJr: Portia: Charters have ways around this. They might have to accept kids, but they are permitted to kick them out FAR more easily than a regular public school.

Then the students can attend another school with their vouchers, they don't necessary have to go to back to public school.


Most states allow charters to reject students based on former disciplinary issues, and that's precisely what charters tend to use as a reason to kick students out. So yeah, often the only option is to return to a regular public school.

And again, charters are public schools.
2012-06-03 12:38:01 PM  
1 votes:

forgotmydamnusername:
It's based on "infallible market" doctrine. Competition must make everything better, always. Never mind that competition can in fact lead to forms of inefficiency and perverse incentives where and when applied inappropriately. Never mind that where vouchers have been tried, as in Washington DC, they haven't improved educational outcomes.




Speaking of free market inefficiencies, what do you think happens when someone has a MONOPOLY? Such as public education.

Vouchers = choice.

You can't force people to make the "right choice," which is what government does when it forces you to send your kid to a public school, learn that the gay lifestyle is normal, and that people descended from monkeys.

Seems the only "choice" that liberals are interested in is the choice to terminate an innocent life, or the choice to stick your peepee in a poo hole.
2012-06-03 12:37:21 PM  
1 votes:
Charter schools: some do better, most do no better or worse, and some suck balls.

You know, just like all the f*cking schools out there. Some are good, some are bad, and some are in the middle.

But in a public school, you have a say by voting, by the PTA, or by running to join the school board yourself.

I know, it's crazy, but an active, educated voting public tends to do better than a group of folks who believe taxes and government are inherently bad.
2012-06-03 12:36:07 PM  
1 votes:

DrewCurtisJr: Portia: Charters have ways around this. They might have to accept kids, but they are permitted to kick them out FAR more easily than a regular public school.

Then the students can attend another school with their vouchers, they don't necessary have to go to back to public school.


But the argument is that the reason Charter Schools have better scores than public schools is because Charter Schools have the luxury to pick and choose who can attend in order to boost up the score. Which is a luxury, public schools don't have.

But someone Florida manages to Fark that up somehow and now some of the worst schools in Florida are Charter Schools.
2012-06-03 12:34:10 PM  
1 votes:

forgotmydamnusername:
It's based on "infallible market" doctrine. Competition must make everything better, always. Never mind that competition can in fact lead to forms of inefficiency and perverse incentives where and when applied inappropriately. Never mind that where vouchers have been tried, as in Washington DC, they haven't improved educational outcomes.


The conservative response is basically that it wasn't conservative enough.

Just like "McCain lost because he wasn't conservative enough", "the financial collapse of 2007-2008 happened because banks weren't deregulated enough", etc.
2012-06-03 12:33:43 PM  
1 votes:

StoneColdAtheist: Strip away all the duff and this is the bottom line. White Southerners will go to extreme lengths to avoid having their snowflakes have to rub elbows with "the laggers and the attractive and successful African-Americans". With this law change they've found a way that is (arguably) constitutionally defensible, since there is no mention of color or of what type religious schools are permitted.


Doh! I thought by using the form of the n-word that rymes with lagger that I'd escape the filter pawn.

*hangs head in shame*
2012-06-03 12:32:00 PM  
1 votes:

Portia: Charters have ways around this. They might have to accept kids, but they are permitted to kick them out FAR more easily than a regular public school.


Then the students can attend another school with their vouchers, they don't necessary have to go to back to public school.
2012-06-03 12:15:16 PM  
1 votes:

realmolo: This is why I'm convinced that public education needs to be handled *entirely* by the feds.

The individual states and municipalities can't be trusted. It's too easy for Bible-thumping idiots to take over local and state school boards, and ruin an entire generation of children. Never mind that local school administrators are some of the most incompetent bureaucrats in government.

At the national level, that kind of craziness doesn't fly At least, not yet.


If it's left up to the local districts, the biblefarkers have to infiltrate every local district in the country. If it's left up to the feds alone, the biblefarkers just have to get 51% of the federal government. It's a much more unstable situation. Federal mandates for one-size-fits-all directives (e.g. "no bible-based anything") while leaving the particulars up to the local districts is safer and allows for innovation. The side-effect of fundies infiltrating and establishing Christian Sharia where they can is unfortunate but unavoidable as long as we continue to pretend these religious whack-jobs are anything but cultists.
2012-06-03 12:10:25 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: Mrtraveler01:
But of course Conservatives wouldn't like that because it conflicts with their true goal of teaching children Conservative orthodoxy in public schools.

i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?


Because they are still butt hurt about desegregation and ANY Federal money with strings attached. You know the strings that are so terrible -- here's money for reading programs for elementary schools, no you can't move it to a general fund and use for anything else.

Here's money to help provide medical care for poor kids, you must use it to provide medical care for poor kids -- I'm looking at you FLORIDA!
2012-06-03 12:06:32 PM  
1 votes:

IlGreven: Don't Troll Me Bro!: We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

20 years ago, we did just that. Now, we're saying to Louisiana, "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Mississippi."

Or, in other words, we failed.


There's always one or two slow learners in the class. The important thing is that the rest of us doesn't look like Mississippi.
2012-06-03 12:02:14 PM  
1 votes:

DrewCurtisJr: Fart_Machine: How exactly does that diminish anything he just said?

The schools aren't exactly "cherry picking" from the best batch of cherries. And besides schools in the school choice program must accept all students and if there are more applications than slots open they must choose students are random.


Charters have ways around this. They might have to accept kids, but they are permitted to kick them out FAR more easily than a regular public school. Every spring in my city public school we'd have a massive influx of students who had been kicked out of their charters and had to return to their neighborhood city schools, sometimes for the most incredibly stupid reasons. One of the charters around here doesn't even have to accept students with multiple disabilities next school year because they're whining that it's "too expensive" to maintain a classroom for them.
2012-06-03 11:59:27 AM  
1 votes:

DrewCurtisJr: Fart_Machine: How exactly does that diminish anything he just said?

The schools aren't exactly "cherry picking" from the best batch of cherries. And besides schools in the school choice program must accept all students and if there are more applications than slots open they must choose students are random.


What about when students don't meet certain behavioral and/or academic standards once they attend? And when those students are exited, how are they counted?

Also, what are the mobility statistics like for those schools?

And while we're at it, what are the percentages of second language learners in them?

And heck, let's throw in what the Free and Reduced lunch rate is while we're at it.
2012-06-03 11:36:51 AM  
1 votes:

Weaver95:
i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?



Public schools can't have religious instruction, as it's a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Therefore, getting rid of public schools would allow for conservatives to push their religion on all kids who are in the privatized schools.

There's also some Ayn Rand-style "hurf durf if it isn't a profit-generating enterprise it's worthless to society" thrown in.
2012-06-03 11:36:15 AM  
1 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: I suspect that most achievement differences are due to the fact that private schools can cherry-pick their students while public schools must accept all.


Only very poor students are eligible for vouchers and private schools that participate in the school choice program.
2012-06-03 11:35:49 AM  
1 votes:

LectertheChef: The real goal isn't so much religious indoctrination, though that's what the fundies believe it is. The real purpose of this is to make Americans who aren't rich ignorant. They switch to vouchers, eventually public schools shut down, then the vouchers get eliminated. If you can't afford the 20k a year to send your kids to school, then they can go to work, because child labor laws will be repealed.


This may be true, but you have to believe that religious institutions would love nothing more than millions of young poorly educated people living in squalor. I can't think of a better way for them to improve their declining memberships.
2012-06-03 11:31:37 AM  
1 votes:
I've never heard of any of this shiat, even in the Catholic schools down here. Where the fark are all these schools?
2012-06-03 11:22:17 AM  
1 votes:
More of that bullshiat "Parental Choice" is coming out too.

You already have a choice as a parent of where to send your kids. Home school, private school, public school. You have a choice. You may not have the means.

The answer of course vouchers. These vouchers are treated as a panacea, when all they do is siphon public money into private pockets, while uninvolved parents continue to stay uninvolved and expect the brand new charter or private school (since the good private schools still aren't accessible with a voucher) to fix all their kid's educational problems.
2012-06-03 11:19:26 AM  
1 votes:
"We try to stay away from all those things that might confuse our children," Carrier said.

Critical thinking is bad for kids. The world needs ditch diggers too. I guess Louisiana is in competition with Kansas over who can produce the most serfs.
2012-06-03 11:19:00 AM  
1 votes:

DrewCurtisJr: Weaver95: but would it be less expensive and provide a better education? most conservatives don't seem to care about verifying that private companies are held accountable to consumers. institutionally speaking, the GOP seems unable to admit that private companies need to be watched just as closely as public unions...

Yes. Milwaukee has had a large voucher program for a while. The results are mixed on testing but overall the kids do about the same, and both public school and voucher students test scores have been rising. Voucher students are also more likely to graduate from high school and attend college. So while vouchers aren't some miracle the system is cheaper and it has been far from a disaster.


I suspect that most achievement differences are due to the fact that private schools can cherry-pick their students while public schools must accept all.
2012-06-03 11:16:15 AM  
1 votes:

proteus_b: I also question the nature of "over four hundred years". "The country" itself is less than two-hundred and fifty years old. The institution of slavery in the United States lasted from the 17th to the 19th centuries. Frederick Douglass learned how to read, despite the thousands of years of under-educated ancestors.


You just can't facepalm hard enough here. It was illegal to teach slaves to read and write. Douglass was an escaped slave who never would have been permitted to do either while he was in the South.
2012-06-03 11:14:26 AM  
1 votes:

theteacher: DrewCurtisJr: Weaver95: what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so?

It can be less expensive, provide a better education, and gives parents a choice in how their kids are educated.

Look at the results from Connecticut. Connecticut had a great Charter school program. It was radical until the companies began co-opting them. The charter school system came into place in Connecticut because they said they could provide an excellent education for way less money...and this year they were crying poor. They discovered they COULD NOT provide a better education for less money.


Interesting. The ones I know about in Florida are run by people like real estate developers who treat it like a business.

And this strategy has shown that some of these school perform even worse than the neighboring public schools.

Link
2012-06-03 11:13:31 AM  
1 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: Weaver95: DrewCurtisJr: Weaver95: what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so?

It can be less expensive, provide a better education, and gives parents a choice in how their kids are educated.

but would it be less expensive and provide a better education? most conservatives don't seem to care about verifying that private companies are held accountable to consumers. institutionally speaking, the GOP seems unable to admit that private companies need to be watched just as closely as public unions...

The idea is that parents will watch the school and transfer their kids out if they don't like the results.


That's a pretty stupid idea, then, isn't it.
2012-06-03 11:10:16 AM  
1 votes:
This is what US corporations used to do to third world countries. They would get into tremendous debt and the corporation would say "We can make it all better if you let us privatize your water supply or your energy supply." Then corporations would make a killing while tripling the price of water to poor people who couldn't afford water to begin with.

At least now we know what rich people in this country think of us. We're third world and we need to be exploited until we bleed.
2012-06-03 11:05:50 AM  
1 votes:

proteus_b: on average perform well in school relative to whites,


Yes because blacks have had equal schools to whites all along.
2012-06-03 10:50:01 AM  
1 votes:

NetOwl: proteus_b: Serious Black: Actually, the best school systems in the world, including Finland and South Korea, offer absolutely no school choice and have completely public school systems. If we're supposed to learn lessons from what has been accomplished in other countries, school choice is not a lesson we should be learning.

Actually, Finland and South Korea have virtually no black people, so many of our problems are not actually represented in those systems.

Fark you.

Seriously, fark you.


On the face of it, it sounds pretty racist. However, the African-American population in the United States has been treated to over four hundred years of systematic under-education due to the underlying racism of much of the country. Until that great error is corrected, that will indeed be a problem that no homogenous society like South Korea and Finland has to deal with.
2012-06-03 10:50:00 AM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: Mrtraveler01:
But of course Conservatives wouldn't like that because it conflicts with their true goal of teaching children Conservative orthodoxy in public schools.

i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?


Education is the bedrock of social control and indoctrination into society. Let's, for just a moment, that our current educational system was designed for the primary task of preparing students for factory life and not for an interest in learning. If we assume that then the possibility that education is still not a primary concern then this move starts to make more sense.

Think about it - if we teach everything is God-based - then climate change isn't an issue because God has a plan and if you just wait a goddam minute he'll be back.

Obviously, there is no need for environmental concerns because something-something God.

And what does the scientific theory of evolution yield anyway? Aside from information about our origin and how this whole evlution works. Again, this is unimportant because JESUS SAVES so let's not teach anything that may undermine our point.

The goal is, as it's always been, to control behavior and indoctrination. Who gains from the new model? Republicans and their financial lords.

/haven't had my coffee yet this morning
//hope I made sense
2012-06-03 10:42:41 AM  
1 votes:

NewportBarGuy: Vouchers... This f*cking retarded idea has been around for 30 years. Still hasn't stopped being f*cking retarded.


Vouchers are used to make sure your kids don't have to go to school with "them."
2012-06-03 10:42:26 AM  
1 votes:
That raises a good point. I bet Beta_plus and his ilk would be fine with Muslims being able to open madrassas in New Orleans. You know, religious freedom and all that jazz that they love so much

and be publicly funded
2012-06-03 10:35:56 AM  
1 votes:

NetOwl: These religious "schools" are child abuse.

Most stupid Republican ideas are just bad, but this will ruin thousands of kids' lives. Denying a kid education destroys the kid at the most fundamental level. It's sick.


So a Muslim kid goes to a sketchy religious school=OHMYGAWDTERRORISMS!!
But a Christian kid goes to a sketchy religious school=YAYJESUS!

Got it.

I understand the fundies and rightards want to add Jesus to the curriculum, but why do they have to do so in the most ignorant way possible? Why can't they imitate Catholic schools? I attended Catholic school, and the nuns taught us languages, history, math and science, and achieved a higher student GPA than the local public schools. And, yes, we had religion class, but that did not dominate or contradict the other subjects we studied.
2012-06-03 10:33:26 AM  
1 votes:

Mr. Coffee Nerves: Bill is being "apprenticed" to a tannery.


Tanning and such is too much of a skilled trade, he might want to unionize. Better send him to Wal*Mart Academy, where he can learn how to apply for Medicaid so the company doesn't have to pay for health insurance.
2012-06-03 10:32:31 AM  
1 votes:
I assume they will also teach Bible based geology and astronomy. And of course, the next step will be cutting funding from state universities and giving out massive scholarships to those who attend Christian colleges.
2012-06-03 10:32:24 AM  
1 votes:

New Farkin User Name: crap...was newton also a heretic? I'm thinking Galileo..


By modern fundamentalist standards, he was. He dedicated much of his research time to alchemy.

It's pretty telling, too, that "Newton was a heretic!" is plausible as an argument a fundie type might use against studying calculus, since attacking the character of a guy who didn't even come up with the modern theory (calculus wasn't really rigorous until Weierstrass) is a popular tactic used when discussing biology.
2012-06-03 10:25:37 AM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: NetOwl: These religious "schools" are child abuse.

Most stupid Republican ideas are just bad, but this will ruin thousands of kids' lives. Denying a kid education destroys the kid at the most fundamental level. It's sick.

well...done well, I don't have any philosophical objection to a religious based education - it CAN work, if done right.

what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so? how can we be sure that a private company can do the job better? how do we even measure 'better'? what choices will poor kids be given under this new system of education, and how will it be paid for?


I'm not objecting to all religious schools (at least not here). We all know the stereotypical Academy Of St. So-and-So, the patron saint of slapping kids with rulers. That can produce educated, responsible, philosophically astute adults. I suspect that being exposed to Catholic theology class can even act as a sort of history lesson as kids move on to the kinds of thought that replaced scholasticism.

Catholic schools force kids to think, even if the thinking is often a rebellion against the Catholic teachings. They also manage to keep the religious stuff separate from the regular subjects, so the kids don't end up woefully ignorant.


What scares me is the way these fundamentalist schools that take pride in propagating ideas that are wrong. I've seen kids who went through this kind of system before, and they were dangerously close to being lost causes. Even if they weren't, they were already behind their peers in basically everything (except for spelling).

Being that far behind when you're in high school means you can't catch up. You're denied opportunities, such as the opportuniy to go to a good college.
2012-06-03 10:25:07 AM  
1 votes:

DrewCurtisJr: Weaver95: what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so?

It can be less expensive, provide a better education, and gives parents a choice in how their kids are educated.


but would it be less expensive and provide a better education? most conservatives don't seem to care about verifying that private companies are held accountable to consumers. institutionally speaking, the GOP seems unable to admit that private companies need to be watched just as closely as public unions...
2012-06-03 10:23:51 AM  
1 votes:

New Farkin User Name: Happy Hours: Don't Troll Me Bro!: Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

I would love to see a bio text that refutes denies evolution; that's gotta be some grade-A comedy. Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?

WTF?????


I didn't read the article, but read the Weeners in this thread.

I'm not sure how a math book can be Bible-based.

There's nothing in it which contradicts math. There's not much mathematical in it at all.

Newton invented calculus and he was a HERETIC!!!!! We must destroy his devil craft!


Let's not forget that Muslimy "algebra"

THIS IS AMURICA! SPEAK AMURICAN!
2012-06-03 10:23:20 AM  
1 votes:

DrewCurtisJr: It can be less expensive, provide a better education, and gives parents a choice in how their kids are educated.


A choice on how they are educated is not a particularly good thing...
2012-06-03 10:20:32 AM  
1 votes:

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

I would love to see a bio text that refutes denies evolution; that's gotta be some grade-A comedy. Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?


WTF?????


I didn't read the article, but read the Weeners in this thread.

I'm not sure how a math book can be Bible-based.

There's nothing in it which contradicts math. There's not much mathematical in it at all.
2012-06-03 10:12:11 AM  
1 votes:

NetOwl: These religious "schools" are child abuse.

Most stupid Republican ideas are just bad, but this will ruin thousands of kids' lives. Denying a kid education destroys the kid at the most fundamental level. It's sick.


well...done well, I don't have any philosophical objection to a religious based education - it CAN work, if done right.

what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so? how can we be sure that a private company can do the job better? how do we even measure 'better'? what choices will poor kids be given under this new system of education, and how will it be paid for?
2012-06-03 10:02:05 AM  
1 votes:
The South will never rise again.
2012-06-03 10:01:15 AM  
1 votes:
At Eternity Christian Academy in Westlake, pastor-turned-principal Marie Carrier hopes to secure extra space to enroll 135 voucher students, though she now has room for just a few dozen. Her first- through eighth-grade students sit in cubicles for much of the day and move at their own pace through Christian workbooks, such as a beginning science text that explains "what God made" on each of the six days of creation. They are not exposed to the theory of evolution.

"We try to stay away from all those things that might confuse our children," Carrier said.


Oh Jesus.
2012-06-03 10:00:00 AM  
1 votes:
In an unrelated move, the Taliban™ will be opening a chain of girls schools in Louisiana in a gesture of accomodation to the republican profit incentive.
2012-06-03 09:56:33 AM  
1 votes:
I see that this is supposed to be for 'state approved' schools.

How is that school that has students watching videos all day, with no library 'state approved'?
Is it accredited at all? If so by what agency?
Or is this all FUD spread by teachers unions?
Considering it is Loiusiana, it very well may be state approved.
Considering the politics involved there is also likely to be FUD spread from all sides in this.

I have a problem with funding religious schools, and the Constitution may also, depending on how it is done. So long as they also teach science as a separate class from religious studies, i have less of a problem with it, similar to how college tuition loans can be used at many religious colleges. But then, how do you separate the two and make sure of it?

Private schools have been successfully funded in Europe, (Britain and...Finland I think?, maybe others), but there have been some notable controversies. Mostly from Islamic schools from what I have seen reported, though problems from fundy schools from any religion would not surprise me.

Giving parents choice is a good thing. Pandering to anti-science creationists, Dominionists, and other religious nuts is not.
So long as separating education from religion can be done, OK. But in the US, and fundy-run states especially, I think there will be serious problems doing that.
2012-06-03 09:55:32 AM  
1 votes:

Mrtraveler01:
But of course Conservatives wouldn't like that because it conflicts with their true goal of teaching children Conservative orthodoxy in public schools.


i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?
2012-06-03 09:49:53 AM  
1 votes:
I am not reading a page formatted like that.

beta_plus: Awww, subby and Fark Libs are all butt hurt because those kids are going to learn how to read and they can't.


It's Sunday morning. Seriously. You're trolling an internet message board on, I'm assuming, a sunny Sunday morning.

Whether you get paid to do it or not, don't you ever sit back and wonder what went wrong in your life?
2012-06-03 09:48:50 AM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: Mr. Coffee Nerves: How else are we going to maintain profitability at our private prisons if we don't have a steady stream of raw materials?

y'know...after Citzens United you would think that people would be terrified at the idea of letting a corporation with a strong financial motive to put ALL of us into a jail cell is running around essentially unregulated.


They can be like Florida and create for-profit charter schools run by corrupt real estate developers

Link
2012-06-03 09:42:52 AM  
1 votes:

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

I would love to see a bio text that refutes denies evolution; that's gotta be some grade-A comedy. Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?


Pi = 3.
2012-06-03 09:33:47 AM  
1 votes:

Don't Troll Me Bro!: We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."


It's already a low standard. The only reason it's not the butt of national jokes is because Mississippi is next door.

Can't imagine how much worse schools can get in Louisiana than they already are now. (Unless you live in the suburbs of New Orleans).
 
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