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(Reuters)   Louisiana defends privatization of education, and by "privatization of education" they really mean sending your kid to Sunday School 5 days per week where she will learn to count to potato in a windowless church bunker   (reuters.com) divider line 482
    More: Asinine, Sunday School, parochial schools, superintendent of schools, private schools, buyer beware, religious education, online school  
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5283 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Jun 2012 at 9:30 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-03 08:50:56 AM
Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

I would love to see a bio text that refutes denies evolution; that's gotta be some grade-A comedy. Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?
 
2012-06-03 08:53:12 AM
How else are we going to maintain profitability at our private prisons if we don't have a steady stream of raw materials?
 
2012-06-03 09:25:42 AM
The Republican War on Education continues.

Children should be confused when they learn. It means they're thinking. You should be aiming for that "ah-ha!" moment when they are no longer confused, not trying to hide them from it.
 
2012-06-03 09:33:03 AM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

I would love to see a bio text that refutes denies evolution; that's gotta be some grade-A comedy. Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?


Five cubits plus two cubits equals Republican Jesus.
 
2012-06-03 09:33:47 AM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."


It's already a low standard. The only reason it's not the butt of national jokes is because Mississippi is next door.

Can't imagine how much worse schools can get in Louisiana than they already are now. (Unless you live in the suburbs of New Orleans).
 
2012-06-03 09:35:28 AM
Vouchers... This f*cking retarded idea has been around for 30 years. Still hasn't stopped being f*cking retarded.
 
2012-06-03 09:37:13 AM
Why can't right-winger be honest and admit that this is nothing but an attempt to subsidize religious schools (as long as they're Christian of course)?

Hiding behind a term like "voucher" is a cowards way out.
 
2012-06-03 09:42:52 AM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

I would love to see a bio text that refutes denies evolution; that's gotta be some grade-A comedy. Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?


Pi = 3.
 
2012-06-03 09:43:44 AM

Mr. Coffee Nerves: How else are we going to maintain profitability at our private prisons if we don't have a steady stream of raw materials?


y'know...after Citzens United you would think that people would be terrified at the idea of letting a corporation with a strong financial motive to put ALL of us into a jail cell is running around essentially unregulated.
 
2012-06-03 09:44:06 AM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

I would love to see a bio text that refutes denies evolution; that's gotta be some grade-A comedy. Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?


Pi = 3
 
2012-06-03 09:45:16 AM
Dammit AMonkeysUncle
 
2012-06-03 09:46:59 AM
Awww, subby and Fark Libs are all butt hurt because those kids are going to learn how to read and they can't.
 
2012-06-03 09:47:21 AM
The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.

Chemistry done in biblical verses??? WTF??? They must have f*cked up the symbols of the Periodic Table.

"Tommy? What is the Periodic Table symbol for oxygen?"
"John 3:16, teacher."
"Very good, Tommy."
 
2012-06-03 09:48:08 AM

NewportBarGuy: Vouchers... This f*cking retarded idea has been around for 30 years. Still hasn't stopped being f*cking retarded.


You mean that retarded idea that we got from Denmark and Sweden.
 
2012-06-03 09:48:50 AM

Weaver95: Mr. Coffee Nerves: How else are we going to maintain profitability at our private prisons if we don't have a steady stream of raw materials?

y'know...after Citzens United you would think that people would be terrified at the idea of letting a corporation with a strong financial motive to put ALL of us into a jail cell is running around essentially unregulated.


They can be like Florida and create for-profit charter schools run by corrupt real estate developers

Link
 
2012-06-03 09:49:53 AM
I am not reading a page formatted like that.

beta_plus: Awww, subby and Fark Libs are all butt hurt because those kids are going to learn how to read and they can't.


It's Sunday morning. Seriously. You're trolling an internet message board on, I'm assuming, a sunny Sunday morning.

Whether you get paid to do it or not, don't you ever sit back and wonder what went wrong in your life?
 
2012-06-03 09:50:21 AM

Mrtraveler01: Weaver95: Mr. Coffee Nerves: How else are we going to maintain profitability at our private prisons if we don't have a steady stream of raw materials?

y'know...after Citzens United you would think that people would be terrified at the idea of letting a corporation with a strong financial motive to put ALL of us into a jail cell is running around essentially unregulated.

They can be like Florida and create for-profit charter schools run by corrupt real estate developers

Link


How much do they make the children have forced semen tasting tests compared to your precious unionized public schools?
 
2012-06-03 09:52:17 AM

beta_plus: Awww, subby and Fark Libs are all butt hurt because those kids are going to learn how to read and they can't.


can you prove that privatization of public schools will provide a better education than the public education system?

ok, how about instead of 'prove' can you at least give us an idea of why you think private run education is better public schools?
 
2012-06-03 09:52:24 AM

beta_plus: Mrtraveler01: Weaver95: Mr. Coffee Nerves: How else are we going to maintain profitability at our private prisons if we don't have a steady stream of raw materials?

y'know...after Citzens United you would think that people would be terrified at the idea of letting a corporation with a strong financial motive to put ALL of us into a jail cell is running around essentially unregulated.

They can be like Florida and create for-profit charter schools run by corrupt real estate developers

Link

How much do they make the children have forced semen tasting tests compared to your precious unionized public schools?


Look, I'm sorry about what happened to you in Catholic school but this isn't the place to discuss that.
 
2012-06-03 09:53:50 AM
I like this idea:

In the Netherlands, the government funds "bijzondere" ("special") schools, which are run by independent non-profit boards, on the condition that they charge no more tuition than public schools do and otherwise abide by practically the same rules as public schools. Parents are free to choose any public or special school for their children, although in some urban areas, such as Amsterdam, admissions procedures do exist. Many, but not all, special schools are religious in nature. The system arose after a prolonged political battle between religious and secular political parties, and is considered a political third rail even today. The emergence of Islamic schools is putting the issue back into the spotlight, though. Any voucher proposals in the Netherlands, and countries with similar systems such as Belgium, are complicated by the historical background of the "school struggle". For a more detailed discussion, see Hooker in 'Bibliography'.

But of course Conservatives wouldn't like that because it conflicts with their true goal of teaching children Conservative orthodoxy in public schools.
 
2012-06-03 09:55:32 AM

Mrtraveler01:
But of course Conservatives wouldn't like that because it conflicts with their true goal of teaching children Conservative orthodoxy in public schools.


i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?
 
2012-06-03 09:56:33 AM
I see that this is supposed to be for 'state approved' schools.

How is that school that has students watching videos all day, with no library 'state approved'?
Is it accredited at all? If so by what agency?
Or is this all FUD spread by teachers unions?
Considering it is Loiusiana, it very well may be state approved.
Considering the politics involved there is also likely to be FUD spread from all sides in this.

I have a problem with funding religious schools, and the Constitution may also, depending on how it is done. So long as they also teach science as a separate class from religious studies, i have less of a problem with it, similar to how college tuition loans can be used at many religious colleges. But then, how do you separate the two and make sure of it?

Private schools have been successfully funded in Europe, (Britain and...Finland I think?, maybe others), but there have been some notable controversies. Mostly from Islamic schools from what I have seen reported, though problems from fundy schools from any religion would not surprise me.

Giving parents choice is a good thing. Pandering to anti-science creationists, Dominionists, and other religious nuts is not.
So long as separating education from religion can be done, OK. But in the US, and fundy-run states especially, I think there will be serious problems doing that.
 
2012-06-03 09:58:19 AM
Instead of the teachers suing, parents should sue about the degradation of the quality of education in public schools due to funding being siphoned off to religious schools. Compulsory public primary education in this country is considerably older than the repub Party. Compulsory public education provided the initial training for the soldiers that won every war from the Mexican War on. Before we abandon compulsory public education I'd like to see some data on how wide-spread religious education effects our children. Are we raising up a generation of conscientious objectors? Or Lt. Calleys? Of job creators? Or welfare queens? Most likely we are raising a generation of self-satisfied mediocrities but Protestant religious indoctrination (as opposed to Catholic schools which have been around a lot longer and in greater quantities) may result in a generation of Ruby Ridge style tax evaders and social malcontents.
 
2012-06-03 09:59:19 AM

tomWright: Private schools have been successfully funded in Europe, (Britain and...Finland I think?, maybe others), but there have been some notable controversies. Mostly from Islamic schools from what I have seen reported, though problems from fundy schools from any religion would not surprise me.


I'm looking into this but the Netherlands has a voucher system as well but the schools that take part in it have to abide by a set of standards set by the Netherlands Government.

I'm trying to see if Sweden is similar but I did see this on wiki:

A 2004 study concluded that school results in public schools improved due to the increased competition.[62] However, Per Thulberg, director general of the Swedish National Agency for Education, has said that the system "has not led to better results" and in the 2000s Sweden's ranking in the PISA league tables worsened.[63]
 
2012-06-03 09:59:25 AM

Weaver95:
i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?


I reckon "Government=BAD" dogma is the official line.
 
2012-06-03 10:00:00 AM
In an unrelated move, the Taliban™ will be opening a chain of girls schools in Louisiana in a gesture of accomodation to the republican profit incentive.
 
2012-06-03 10:00:30 AM

clambam: Most likely we are raising a generation of self-satisfied mediocrities but Protestant religious indoctrination (as opposed to Catholic schools which have been around a lot longer and in greater quantities) may result in a generation of Ruby Ridge style tax evaders and social malcontents.


The true goal of Conservatives it seems.
 
2012-06-03 10:00:38 AM
"Calculate x. Show your work."

"x = 3. God did it."
 
2012-06-03 10:00:54 AM

shpritz: Weaver95:
i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?

I reckon "Government=BAD" dogma is the official line.


ok, but I wanted an actual reason, not the boiler plate propaganda non-answer.
 
2012-06-03 10:01:08 AM
If you can stop them thinking whilst they are children, then once they are adults they will never question their rulers.
 
2012-06-03 10:01:15 AM
At Eternity Christian Academy in Westlake, pastor-turned-principal Marie Carrier hopes to secure extra space to enroll 135 voucher students, though she now has room for just a few dozen. Her first- through eighth-grade students sit in cubicles for much of the day and move at their own pace through Christian workbooks, such as a beginning science text that explains "what God made" on each of the six days of creation. They are not exposed to the theory of evolution.

"We try to stay away from all those things that might confuse our children," Carrier said.


Oh Jesus.
 
2012-06-03 10:01:53 AM

Commander Lysdexic: If you can stop them thinking whilst they are children, then once they are adults they will never question their rulers.


Ignorance is strength.

/Hated that movie though
 
2012-06-03 10:01:55 AM

tomWright: I see that this is supposed to be for 'state approved' schools.

How is that school that has students watching videos all day, with no library 'state approved'?
Is it accredited at all? If so by what agency?
Or is this all FUD spread by teachers unions?
Considering it is Loiusiana, it very well may be state approved.
Considering the politics involved there is also likely to be FUD spread from all sides in this.

I have a problem with funding religious schools, and the Constitution may also, depending on how it is done. So long as they also teach science as a separate class from religious studies, i have less of a problem with it, similar to how college tuition loans can be used at many religious colleges. But then, how do you separate the two and make sure of it?

Private schools have been successfully funded in Europe, (Britain and...Finland I think?, maybe others), but there have been some notable controversies. Mostly from Islamic schools from what I have seen reported, though problems from fundy schools from any religion would not surprise me.

Giving parents choice is a good thing. Pandering to anti-science creationists, Dominionists, and other religious nuts is not.
So long as separating education from religion can be done, OK. But in the US, and fundy-run states especially, I think there will be serious problems doing that.


That raises a good point. I bet Beta_plus and his ilk would be fine with Muslims being able to open madrassas in New Orleans. You know, religious freedom and all that jazz that they love so much
 
2012-06-03 10:02:05 AM
The South will never rise again.
 
2012-06-03 10:02:14 AM
Privatization is fine so long as any institution receiving funds or counting as a school for the purposes of truancy law fulfills:

1. All of the requirements of the state curriculum.
2. Regulations regarding building codes (occupancy, utilities, etc).
3. In the case of receiving money, adherence to the restrictions on expenditure of federal and state money (relevant: separation of church and state, so no vouchers for priests)
4. Legal certification requirements for instructors.

Obviously we're talking Louisiana, the "all our government programs are actually money laundering schemes" state, so they're not going to enforce a single one of those provisions. But a theoretical state with competent administrators (literally anywhere but LA) could actually conceivably pull it off without many problems.

On a related note, congrats to every parish- and state-level official on their new tax-funded payday. Enjoy the free money with no strings attached, I look forward to all the priests in the state showing off their Italian convertibles next year.
 
2012-06-03 10:03:23 AM

0Icky0: The South will never rise again.


Every cloud has a silver lining.
 
2012-06-03 10:03:48 AM
Step 2: Raise a generations of morons who rail against the federal government

Step 3: collect money from the same federal government in ammounts exponentially higher than what you pay in federal taxes.


Theyre already well on their way...
 
2012-06-03 10:04:57 AM

BitwiseShift: In an unrelated move, the Taliban™ will be opening a chain of girls schools in Louisiana in a gesture of accomodation to the republican profit incentive.


And the daily lunch menu will be...

Poison.
 
2012-06-03 10:05:54 AM

Jim_Callahan: But a theoretical state with competent administrators


This state doesn't exist.

Or at least it isn't the state I'm in.
 
2012-06-03 10:05:58 AM

Weaver95: beta_plus: Awww, subby and Fark Libs are all butt hurt because those kids are going to learn how to read and they can't.

can you prove that privatization of public schools will provide a better education than the public education system?

ok, how about instead of 'prove' can you at least give us an idea of why you think private run education is better public schools?


That's not in todays RNC talking points. So no... He can't
 
2012-06-03 10:06:14 AM

Weaver95: Mrtraveler01:
But of course Conservatives wouldn't like that because it conflicts with their true goal of teaching children Conservative orthodoxy in public schools.

i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?


Do you want the Official Conservative Movement Answer, or the real-world one? The former: "Liberalism and unions have destroyed our public education system, and it's now only used for drug dealing, DemonRat indoctrination about evolution, socialism, Global Warming, and teaching children how to have gay sex."

Real-world answer: because the conservative jihad believes that all areas of society -- the press, the judicial branch of govenment, the Girl Scouts, etc. -- should and must bend to its will. They have not been able to do this successfully with public education yet, and what they cannot take over, they would prefer to destroy and replace -- in this case, with a system that will, they hope, breed good little Christianist corporatists who will be reliable votes for God's Own Party.

I wish that the preceding paragraph were satirical hyperbole, but I'm afraid it is the literal, sober truth.
 
2012-06-03 10:07:18 AM

0Icky0: The South will never rise again.


I am less optimistic. If they do rise again, it will be on the backs of stupid, indoctrinated god warriors that will be convinced that everything they do is a-okay since they are on God's side. Essentially, a christian jihadist.

/iwantoffthisplanet.jpg
 
2012-06-03 10:07:21 AM
FTA:The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.

Cripes, they've figured out a way to get state education funding while getting rid of teachers altogether.
 
2012-06-03 10:07:28 AM

Waxing_Chewbacca: Weaver95: beta_plus: Awww, subby and Fark Libs are all butt hurt because those kids are going to learn how to read and they can't.

can you prove that privatization of public schools will provide a better education than the public education system?

ok, how about instead of 'prove' can you at least give us an idea of why you think private run education is better public schools?

That's not in todays RNC talking points. So no... He can't


I heard the GOP is moving their talking points from fax to PDF form now.
 
2012-06-03 10:08:01 AM
The way Biblefreaks mimic academic integrity has always reminded me of psychopaths practicing emotive facial expressions in a mirror. They know that in order to achieve their agenda they have to successfully imitate an entire dimension of human experience that they can never possibly understand. And no matter how convincing they can make it appear to a casual glance, one need only to scratch the surface to see what they really are.
 
2012-06-03 10:09:13 AM

apoptotic: FTA:The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.

Cripes, they've figured out a way to get state education funding while getting rid of teachers altogether.


I know. This is a prime example of why we need some standard in education (preferably on the national level because states let stupid shiat like this fly)
 
2012-06-03 10:09:19 AM
FTFA: Her first- through eighth-grade students sit in cubicles for much of the day and move at their own pace through Christian workbooks, such as a beginning science text that explains "what God made" on each of the six days of creation. They are not exposed to the theory of evolution.

"We try to stay away from all those things that might confuse our children," Carrier said.


Preparing them for later life?
 
2012-06-03 10:09:31 AM
These religious "schools" are child abuse.

Most stupid Republican ideas are just bad, but this will ruin thousands of kids' lives. Denying a kid education destroys the kid at the most fundamental level. It's sick.
 
2012-06-03 10:12:11 AM

NetOwl: These religious "schools" are child abuse.

Most stupid Republican ideas are just bad, but this will ruin thousands of kids' lives. Denying a kid education destroys the kid at the most fundamental level. It's sick.


well...done well, I don't have any philosophical objection to a religious based education - it CAN work, if done right.

what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so? how can we be sure that a private company can do the job better? how do we even measure 'better'? what choices will poor kids be given under this new system of education, and how will it be paid for?
 
2012-06-03 10:16:52 AM
Sadly the only way to correct this behavior is to let these guys totally ruin a couple of states. The states will turn into an abysmal pit of low paid grunt labor.

The worst part will be all the innocent people damaged along the way. Generations of people with no hope of ever clawing out of the bottom of the barrel. The individuals don't deserve it.
 
2012-06-03 10:17:41 AM

Commander Lysdexic: FTFA: Her first- through eighth-grade students sit in cubicles for much of the day and move at their own pace through Christian workbooks, such as a beginning science text that explains "what God made" on each of the six days of creation. They are not exposed to the theory of evolution.

"We try to stay away from all those things that might confuse our children," Carrier said.

Preparing them for later life?


It's like a photo-negative of Spock's childhood school from the new Star Trek.

Weaver95: well...done well, I don't have any philosophical objection to a religious based education - it CAN work, if done right.


How would a hypothetical religious based education "done right" look?
 
2012-06-03 10:18:05 AM

Mrtraveler01: Why can't right-winger be honest and admit that this is nothing but an attempt to subsidize religious schools (as long as they're Christian of course)?

Hiding behind a term like "voucher" is a cowards way out.


I think this might be a great opportunity to open a Muslim school and demand vouches for it.
 
2012-06-03 10:18:14 AM

Weaver95: what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so?


It can be less expensive, provide a better education, and gives parents a choice in how their kids are educated.
 
2012-06-03 10:20:32 AM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

I would love to see a bio text that refutes denies evolution; that's gotta be some grade-A comedy. Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?


WTF?????


I didn't read the article, but read the Weeners in this thread.

I'm not sure how a math book can be Bible-based.

There's nothing in it which contradicts math. There's not much mathematical in it at all.
 
2012-06-03 10:21:28 AM
FTFA: At Eternity Christian Academy in Westlake, pastor-turned-principal Marie Carrier hopes to secure extra space to enroll 135 voucher students, though she now has room for just a few dozen. Her first- through eighth-grade students sit in cubicles for much of the day and move at their own pace through Christian workbooks, such as a beginning science text that explains "what God made" on each of the six days of creation. They are not exposed to the theory of evolution.

"We try to stay away from all those things that might confuse our children," Carrier said.


FTFA: The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.

This is the outcome that I'm supposed to believe is better than public schools? This?

I'm sure the smarter of the right-wing shills will say that this is just cherry-picking the data, that these are a few bad apples, the rest of the voucher schools are totally awesomesauce and furthermore, BUT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY DO TO DECLARE THAT PUBLIC SCHOOLS SUCK DONKEY SCROTA. They pick the absolute worst of the inner-city schools run by retards to declare that public education is a broken concept, and then point to the best of the private institutions in the wealthiest districts as the proof-of-concept for private enterprise education.

Fark that noise. This country is where it is today because we actually taught our children in a systematic way as a society. Here's a conundrum for those Golden Age conservative dumbfarks out there: if the best days of this country were back in the past some time when Jesus was Lord of the schools, then WHY DOESN'T THE SUPPOSED 1895 HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATION TEST SAY ANYTHING ABOUT JESUS?

Sorry for the capslock, I'm in a pissy mood today.
 
2012-06-03 10:22:19 AM

Happy Hours: Don't Troll Me Bro!: Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

I would love to see a bio text that refutes denies evolution; that's gotta be some grade-A comedy. Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?

WTF?????


I didn't read the article, but read the Weeners in this thread.

I'm not sure how a math book can be Bible-based.

There's nothing in it which contradicts math. There's not much mathematical in it at all.


Newton invented calculus and he was a HERETIC!!!!! We must destroy his devil craft!
 
2012-06-03 10:22:23 AM

LouDobbsAwaaaay:

How would a hypothetical religious based education "done right" look?


ask the Jews and the Catholics - they've been running private religious schools for a long time. good quality education too for that matter.
 
2012-06-03 10:22:25 AM

Weaver95: Mrtraveler01:
But of course Conservatives wouldn't like that because it conflicts with their true goal of teaching children Conservative orthodoxy in public schools.

i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?



Private schools have historically graduated better educated students than public schools. One reason is better finances, another is parents will spend money on a smart kid's education, but the main reason is the private system can choose their students. Public system can't do that.

/and no, vouchers will not give everyone a private-school education because if everyone is in the schools the schools won't have their edge anymore.

//i said schools too many times, it has no meaning anymore
 
2012-06-03 10:22:33 AM
Vouchers: a great way to get the proles to pay for your kids education at private schools, and keep them out of those same schools.
 
2012-06-03 10:22:59 AM
crap...was newton also a heretic? I'm thinking Galileo..
 
2012-06-03 10:23:20 AM

DrewCurtisJr: It can be less expensive, provide a better education, and gives parents a choice in how their kids are educated.


A choice on how they are educated is not a particularly good thing...
 
2012-06-03 10:23:51 AM

New Farkin User Name: Happy Hours: Don't Troll Me Bro!: Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

I would love to see a bio text that refutes denies evolution; that's gotta be some grade-A comedy. Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?

WTF?????


I didn't read the article, but read the Weeners in this thread.

I'm not sure how a math book can be Bible-based.

There's nothing in it which contradicts math. There's not much mathematical in it at all.

Newton invented calculus and he was a HERETIC!!!!! We must destroy his devil craft!


Let's not forget that Muslimy "algebra"

THIS IS AMURICA! SPEAK AMURICAN!
 
2012-06-03 10:24:13 AM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?


1. 12 Apostles had 36 apples. Each Apostle kept one, and gave one to Jesus. Jesus gave 3 apples to the poor. If Jesus had 9 apples left, how many gay people won't get into heaven?

2. The earth is 10,000 years old. How old was Methusaleh when he rode his last dinosaur?

3. Kenya is in Africa. How many miles away was Barack Hussein Obama born from the US??
 
2012-06-03 10:25:07 AM

DrewCurtisJr: Weaver95: what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so?

It can be less expensive, provide a better education, and gives parents a choice in how their kids are educated.


but would it be less expensive and provide a better education? most conservatives don't seem to care about verifying that private companies are held accountable to consumers. institutionally speaking, the GOP seems unable to admit that private companies need to be watched just as closely as public unions...
 
2012-06-03 10:25:16 AM

Weaver95: what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so?


Kickbacks, graft and, er, sweetheart deals.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: How would a hypothetical religious based education "done right" look?


I understand the Jesuits dish out a pretty hardcore curriculum in their schools.
 
2012-06-03 10:25:37 AM

Weaver95: NetOwl: These religious "schools" are child abuse.

Most stupid Republican ideas are just bad, but this will ruin thousands of kids' lives. Denying a kid education destroys the kid at the most fundamental level. It's sick.

well...done well, I don't have any philosophical objection to a religious based education - it CAN work, if done right.

what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so? how can we be sure that a private company can do the job better? how do we even measure 'better'? what choices will poor kids be given under this new system of education, and how will it be paid for?


I'm not objecting to all religious schools (at least not here). We all know the stereotypical Academy Of St. So-and-So, the patron saint of slapping kids with rulers. That can produce educated, responsible, philosophically astute adults. I suspect that being exposed to Catholic theology class can even act as a sort of history lesson as kids move on to the kinds of thought that replaced scholasticism.

Catholic schools force kids to think, even if the thinking is often a rebellion against the Catholic teachings. They also manage to keep the religious stuff separate from the regular subjects, so the kids don't end up woefully ignorant.


What scares me is the way these fundamentalist schools that take pride in propagating ideas that are wrong. I've seen kids who went through this kind of system before, and they were dangerously close to being lost causes. Even if they weren't, they were already behind their peers in basically everything (except for spelling).

Being that far behind when you're in high school means you can't catch up. You're denied opportunities, such as the opportuniy to go to a good college.
 
2012-06-03 10:26:47 AM

tomWright: Private schools have been successfully funded in Europe, (Britain and...Finland I think?, maybe others), but there have been some notable controversies. Mostly from Islamic schools from what I have seen reported, though problems from fundy schools from any religion would not surprise me.

Giving parents choice is a good thing. Pandering to anti-science creationists, Dominionists, and other religious nuts is not.
So long as separating education from religion can be done, OK. But in the US, and fundy-run states especially, I think there will be serious problems doing that.


Actually, the best school systems in the world, including Finland and South Korea, offer absolutely no school choice and have completely public school systems. If we're supposed to learn lessons from what has been accomplished in other countries, school choice is not a lesson we should be learning.
 
2012-06-03 10:27:14 AM

Weaver95: what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so? how can we be sure that a private company can do the job better? how do we even measure 'better'? what choices will poor kids be given under this new system of education, and how will it be paid for?


In theory (and I do mean 'theory' - I believe it's practical after I see it working),
Competition - Private Schools will push students to get better grades because a school that boasts better grades can charge more.

How do we measure better? Grades - it's not perfect and it often leads to teaching kids how to pass exams rather than a rounded understanding of the subject. It's flawed for that reason and also because school social activities aren't graded - A school might gets great grades but all its students are lifeless automata due to nothing to do at lunchbreak, no socialising, no fun activities etc.

Kids? Choices? Haha, no. Parents will make the choices for their children using whatever criteria they think is 'best' for their child. Good parents will have their childs wellbeing at heart and bad parents will want their children to be a carbon copy of themselves or else live vicariously through their children - pushing them to be top of the class, star quarterback, head cheerleader etc - because the parents never got to do those things.

Now that's a flaw for private and public schools alike, but I assume that at public school the child is taught a number of subjects - but if her parents send her to the Math Genius Academy and she just wants to learn art and music....then you have one unhappy kid.

Paid for? Well if it's private shouldn't the parents be paying a fee?
 
2012-06-03 10:27:15 AM

hubiestubert: THIS IS AMURICA! SPEAK AMURICAN!


i.qkme.me
 
2012-06-03 10:30:31 AM
It used to be: It's Freshman Year - Jim is being put on the the college-prep track, Bill is being put on the industrial arts track.

Soon it will be: It's First Grade - Br*yed&n is going to Hedge Fund Academy, Bill is being "apprenticed" to a tannery.
 
2012-06-03 10:31:17 AM

Serious Black: Actually, the best school systems in the world, including Finland and South Korea, offer absolutely no school choice and have completely public school systems. If we're supposed to learn lessons from what has been accomplished in other countries, school choice is not a lesson we should be learning.


Actually, Finland and South Korea have virtually no black people, so many of our problems are not actually represented in those systems.
 
2012-06-03 10:32:24 AM

New Farkin User Name: crap...was newton also a heretic? I'm thinking Galileo..


By modern fundamentalist standards, he was. He dedicated much of his research time to alchemy.

It's pretty telling, too, that "Newton was a heretic!" is plausible as an argument a fundie type might use against studying calculus, since attacking the character of a guy who didn't even come up with the modern theory (calculus wasn't really rigorous until Weierstrass) is a popular tactic used when discussing biology.
 
2012-06-03 10:32:31 AM
I assume they will also teach Bible based geology and astronomy. And of course, the next step will be cutting funding from state universities and giving out massive scholarships to those who attend Christian colleges.
 
2012-06-03 10:33:26 AM

Mr. Coffee Nerves: Bill is being "apprenticed" to a tannery.


Tanning and such is too much of a skilled trade, he might want to unionize. Better send him to Wal*Mart Academy, where he can learn how to apply for Medicaid so the company doesn't have to pay for health insurance.
 
2012-06-03 10:34:32 AM

trotsky: Don't Troll Me Bro!: Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

I would love to see a bio text that refutes denies evolution; that's gotta be some grade-A comedy. Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?

Five cubits plus two cubits equals Republican Jesus.


If Jack has ten daughters, he marries three of them off in exchange for a 400 cubits of land and six goats, and has one stoned in the street for being caught "knowing" her friend Susan a bit too well, how many daughters does he have left to offer as rapey sacrifices to appease an angry mob?
 
2012-06-03 10:34:43 AM

proteus_b: Serious Black: Actually, the best school systems in the world, including Finland and South Korea, offer absolutely no school choice and have completely public school systems. If we're supposed to learn lessons from what has been accomplished in other countries, school choice is not a lesson we should be learning.

Actually, Finland and South Korea have virtually no black people, so many of our problems are not actually represented in those systems.


So, what, we should exterminate the ni-BONGs to fix our education system? That sounds like a plan that even Godwin would appreciate.
 
2012-06-03 10:35:10 AM
Wait....you mean to say there are schools in Louisiana? As in right now?
 
2012-06-03 10:35:28 AM

proteus_b: Serious Black: Actually, the best school systems in the world, including Finland and South Korea, offer absolutely no school choice and have completely public school systems. If we're supposed to learn lessons from what has been accomplished in other countries, school choice is not a lesson we should be learning.

Actually, Finland and South Korea have virtually no black people, so many of our problems are not actually represented in those systems.


Fark you.

Seriously, fark you.
 
2012-06-03 10:35:56 AM

NetOwl: These religious "schools" are child abuse.

Most stupid Republican ideas are just bad, but this will ruin thousands of kids' lives. Denying a kid education destroys the kid at the most fundamental level. It's sick.


So a Muslim kid goes to a sketchy religious school=OHMYGAWDTERRORISMS!!
But a Christian kid goes to a sketchy religious school=YAYJESUS!

Got it.

I understand the fundies and rightards want to add Jesus to the curriculum, but why do they have to do so in the most ignorant way possible? Why can't they imitate Catholic schools? I attended Catholic school, and the nuns taught us languages, history, math and science, and achieved a higher student GPA than the local public schools. And, yes, we had religion class, but that did not dominate or contradict the other subjects we studied.
 
2012-06-03 10:38:46 AM

Serious Black: So, what, we should exterminate the ni-BONGs to fix our education system? That sounds like a plan that even Godwin would appreciate.


That is indeed a modest proposal.
 
2012-06-03 10:39:57 AM

proteus_b: Serious Black: So, what, we should exterminate the ni-BONGs to fix our education system? That sounds like a plan that even Godwin would appreciate.

That is indeed a modest proposal.


Don't forget the Messicans.
 
2012-06-03 10:40:23 AM

proteus_b: so many of our problems are not actually represented in those systems


Like such as which ones?
 
2012-06-03 10:40:55 AM

Mrtraveler01: Why can't right-winger be honest and admit that this is nothing but an attempt to subsidize religious schools (as long as they're Christian of course)?

Hiding behind a term like "voucher" is a cowards way out.


Because people wouldn't support their policies if they were honest about their goals. Example: NC's Amendment One.
 
2012-06-03 10:42:26 AM
That raises a good point. I bet Beta_plus and his ilk would be fine with Muslims being able to open madrassas in New Orleans. You know, religious freedom and all that jazz that they love so much

and be publicly funded
 
2012-06-03 10:42:41 AM

NewportBarGuy: Vouchers... This f*cking retarded idea has been around for 30 years. Still hasn't stopped being f*cking retarded.


Vouchers are used to make sure your kids don't have to go to school with "them."
 
2012-06-03 10:42:54 AM

WhyteRaven74: proteus_b: so many of our problems are not actually represented in those systems

Like such as which ones?


Having a farking black president! God, the state America is in.
 
2012-06-03 10:46:01 AM

DrewCurtisJr: Weaver95: what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so?

It can be less expensive, provide a better education, and gives parents a choice in how their kids are educated.


Look at the results from Connecticut. Connecticut had a great Charter school program. It was radical until the companies began co-opting them. The charter school system came into place in Connecticut because they said they could provide an excellent education for way less money...and this year they were crying poor. They discovered they COULD NOT provide a better education for less money.
 
2012-06-03 10:48:42 AM

Weaver95: but would it be less expensive and provide a better education? most conservatives don't seem to care about verifying that private companies are held accountable to consumers. institutionally speaking, the GOP seems unable to admit that private companies need to be watched just as closely as public unions...


Yes. Milwaukee has had a large voucher program for a while. The results are mixed on testing but overall the kids do about the same, and both public school and voucher students test scores have been rising. Voucher students are also more likely to graduate from high school and attend college. So while vouchers aren't some miracle the system is cheaper and it has been far from a disaster.
 
2012-06-03 10:50:00 AM

Weaver95: Mrtraveler01:
But of course Conservatives wouldn't like that because it conflicts with their true goal of teaching children Conservative orthodoxy in public schools.

i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?


Education is the bedrock of social control and indoctrination into society. Let's, for just a moment, that our current educational system was designed for the primary task of preparing students for factory life and not for an interest in learning. If we assume that then the possibility that education is still not a primary concern then this move starts to make more sense.

Think about it - if we teach everything is God-based - then climate change isn't an issue because God has a plan and if you just wait a goddam minute he'll be back.

Obviously, there is no need for environmental concerns because something-something God.

And what does the scientific theory of evolution yield anyway? Aside from information about our origin and how this whole evlution works. Again, this is unimportant because JESUS SAVES so let's not teach anything that may undermine our point.

The goal is, as it's always been, to control behavior and indoctrination. Who gains from the new model? Republicans and their financial lords.

/haven't had my coffee yet this morning
//hope I made sense
 
2012-06-03 10:50:01 AM

NetOwl: proteus_b: Serious Black: Actually, the best school systems in the world, including Finland and South Korea, offer absolutely no school choice and have completely public school systems. If we're supposed to learn lessons from what has been accomplished in other countries, school choice is not a lesson we should be learning.

Actually, Finland and South Korea have virtually no black people, so many of our problems are not actually represented in those systems.

Fark you.

Seriously, fark you.


On the face of it, it sounds pretty racist. However, the African-American population in the United States has been treated to over four hundred years of systematic under-education due to the underlying racism of much of the country. Until that great error is corrected, that will indeed be a problem that no homogenous society like South Korea and Finland has to deal with.
 
2012-06-03 10:50:13 AM

WhyteRaven74: Like such as which ones?


Well, the poor performance on international standardized tests (in comparison to high performing nations such as Suomi and the like such as DSK)

I'm not sure why this factual statement of mine is interpreted as wanting to "exterminate" blacks. I simply made the irrefutable comment that they do not, on average perform well in school relative to whites, even after controlling for factors such as income and environment. While I may have stated this in a troll-tastic manner, I find it likely that any black farkers who have been successful in life are aware of the under-performance of blacks as a whole and consciously changed their behavior in a positive manner. Whether or not they express this view in polite company is another manner. Perhaps they're some sort of silent majority [minority].
 
2012-06-03 10:50:42 AM

theteacher: ...They discovered they COULD NOT provide a better education for less money.


Your facts are no match for a Republican's religious belief in capitalism.

/not to mention the fabulous number of charter schools that are under investigation/prosecution for malfeasance.
 
2012-06-03 10:52:35 AM

Serious Black: tomWright: Private schools have been successfully funded in Europe, (Britain and...Finland I think?, maybe others), but there have been some notable controversies. Mostly from Islamic schools from what I have seen reported, though problems from fundy schools from any religion would not surprise me.

Giving parents choice is a good thing. Pandering to anti-science creationists, Dominionists, and other religious nuts is not.
So long as separating education from religion can be done, OK. But in the US, and fundy-run states especially, I think there will be serious problems doing that.

Actually, the best school systems in the world, including Finland and South Korea, offer absolutely no school choice and have completely public school systems. If we're supposed to learn lessons from what has been accomplished in other countries, school choice is not a lesson we should be learning.



I am not certain about Finland, you may be right about no choice. Someone above mentioned Netherlands as being one with private schools.

I am no expert on the school systems of other countries, I only know what I see in the news and documentaries I watch. But I suspect their methods would not be welcome here. I also suspect they do not have the social problems the U.S. needs to overcome, due to it's history.

What I do think, is that we should look around the world and see what works, and what does not, in situations similar to what we face.

I do know that what we are doing now, arguing for decades and letting class after class graduate and be cheated out of the education they deserve, is not working. We need to stop fiddling while the schools burn.

A form of choice so that parents can flee bad schools to find better ones is needed. Finding a way to do that without turning over young minds to religious fanatics, or political fanatics either, is the hard part.
 
2012-06-03 10:52:56 AM

NetOwl: proteus_b: Serious Black: Actually, the best school systems in the world, including Finland and South Korea, offer absolutely no school choice and have completely public school systems. If we're supposed to learn lessons from what has been accomplished in other countries, school choice is not a lesson we should be learning.

Actually, Finland and South Korea have virtually no black people, so many of our problems are not actually represented in those systems.

Fark you.

Seriously, fark you.


It might have been fair to say "Finland and South Korea are homogeneous societies with few economically or socially-challenged minorities to bring down scholastic averages." But of course that's not what he said, so your response is perfectly appropriate.

The amazing thing is, if you take the socially and economically disadvantaged, both urban and rural, out of the equation in this country, our educational system is second to none. There is a reason why Microsoft, IBM, Apple, Facebook, Adobe and scores of other innovative business concerns were founded in this country and not, say, France. There's a reason why students come from all over the world to attend American colleges and universities and not the other way around. Our educational system kicks ass and takes names. The repub program of undercutting an institution that has made America the greatest nation in the history of the universe, militarily, economically, socially and politically, beggars the imagination in terms of foolishness and the triumph of ideology over common sense. These people are retarded, and they want everyone else to be retarded too.
 
2012-06-03 10:53:36 AM
Now lookie heah. Ahm a fixin'' ta mash down on this heah keyboad and gib y'all a lesson on how to egumukate y'alls chillins in de name o Gawhd.
Praise jeebus!
Cin ah git an Ay-Men?
 
2012-06-03 10:55:55 AM

vudukungfu: Cin ah


Wasn't that the gay guy from Hunger Games?
 
2012-06-03 10:56:38 AM

theorellior: On the face of it, it sounds pretty racist. However, the African-American population in the United States has been treated to over four hundred years of systematic under-education due to the underlying racism of much of the country. Until that great error is corrected, that will indeed be a problem that no homogenous society like South Korea and Finland has to deal with.


Actually some blacks in segregated schools used to learn the entire classical curriculum. I also question the nature of "over four hundred years". "The country" itself is less than two-hundred and fifty years old. The institution of slavery in the United States lasted from the 17th to the 19th centuries. Frederick Douglass learned how to read, despite the thousands of years of under-educated ancestors.
 
2012-06-03 10:56:43 AM
Has anyone thought about how this will turn out in 30 or 40 years? How long do the vouchers last? Does everyone get one forever, or just until the public schools are totally shuttered? Then what? Are there just going to be a ton of kids who can't go to school? Why is the government subsidizing religious schools? I know the article says "schools of their choosing," but I'd bet you my next paycheck there isn't an Islamic school available. Or a Jewish one. Maybe there's like, one. I don't know. This does not seem like a good idea.

Also, Bible-based math? Science DVDs and the Bible?! What? No!
 
2012-06-03 10:59:25 AM

Weaver95: shpritz: Weaver95:
i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?

I reckon "Government=BAD" dogma is the official line.

ok, but I wanted an actual reason, not the boiler plate propaganda non-answer.


1. Competition will motivate public schools to do better.

2. Parents have the right to have a choice of what & how kids are taught.

3. Diverse curricula will yield innovative improvements in education.

I don't necessarily buy all of that, but those are some of the reasons given.

In practice, we'll mainly see parents prioritizing religion vs. employability for their kids.
 
2012-06-03 11:01:37 AM

theteacher: Look at the results from Connecticut. Connecticut had a great Charter school program. It was radical until the companies began co-opting them. The charter school system came into place in Connecticut because they said they could provide an excellent education for way less money...and this year they were crying poor. They discovered they COULD NOT provide a better education for less money.


The voucher program and charter schools are not the same thing.
 
2012-06-03 11:01:47 AM

proteus_b: I'm not sure why this factual statement of mine is interpreted as wanting to "exterminate" blacks. I simply made the irrefutable comment that they do not, on average perform well in school relative to whites, even after controlling for factors such as income and environment. While I may have stated this in a troll-tastic manner, I find it likely that any black farkers who have been successful in life are aware of the under-performance of blacks as a whole and consciously changed their behavior in a positive manner. Whether or not they express this view in polite company is another manner. Perhaps they're some sort of silent majority [minority].


I know I was meaning to put you on Ignore and this kind of post reminds me of why. Bing! Adios, asshole.
 
2012-06-03 11:02:12 AM
Are Republicans really against "set theory" in math!?
 
2012-06-03 11:02:20 AM
i was ask the other day why should parents with kids in private schools have to pay for public schools.

this wasn't the answer i gave nor is it.

also living close to new orleans before and after katrina i can assure you that any "lessons" learned about charter schools need to be looked at closely. there are many factors at work beyond just swapping school types.
 
2012-06-03 11:02:35 AM

NetOwl: These religious "schools" are child abuse.

Most stupid Republican ideas are just bad, but this will ruin thousands of kids' lives. Denying a kid education destroys the kid at the most fundamental level. It's sick.


You don't really think the GOP cares, do you? 6 months from now, the legislators will get their campaign contribution checks and the lobbyists will get their cut of the voucher money. Combined with the prospect of force-feeding right wing propaganda to children, which is likely the only way the GOP will survive long term, this seems like the perfect plan.
 
2012-06-03 11:04:39 AM

Mrtraveler01: apoptotic: FTA:The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.

Cripes, they've figured out a way to get state education funding while getting rid of teachers altogether.

I know. This is a prime example of why we need some standard in education (preferably on the national level because states let stupid shiat like this fly)


It's revealing that the school which needs the most voucher students is the one with an utterly appalling way of "educating" kids. Even with vouchers, I doubt this hellhole will be able to survive.
 
2012-06-03 11:05:10 AM
I can't wait until the inevitable opening of a

clambam: NetOwl: proteus_b: Serious Black: Actually, the best school systems in the world, including Finland and South Korea, offer absolutely no school choice and have completely public school systems. If we're supposed to learn lessons from what has been accomplished in other countries, school choice is not a lesson we should be learning.

Actually, Finland and South Korea have virtually no black people, so many of our problems are not actually represented in those systems.

Fark you.

Seriously, fark you.

It might have been fair to say "Finland and South Korea are homogeneous societies with few economically or socially-challenged minorities to bring down scholastic averages." But of course that's not what he said, so your response is perfectly appropriate.

The amazing thing is, if you take the socially and economically disadvantaged, both urban and rural, out of the equation in this country, our educational system is second to none. There is a reason why Microsoft, IBM, Apple, Facebook, Adobe and scores of other innovative business concerns were founded in this country and not, say, France. There's a reason why students come from all over the world to attend American colleges and universities and not the other way around. Our educational system kicks ass and takes names. The repub program of undercutting an institution that has made America the greatest nation in the history of the universe, militarily, economically, socially and politically, beggars the imagination in terms of foolishness and the triumph of ideology over common sense. These people are retarded, and they want everyone else to be retarded too.


--------------------------------

This. x100000
 
2012-06-03 11:05:40 AM

dababler: Are Republicans really against "set theory" in math!?


Anything that's "just a theory" doesn't belong in the Republican classroom, only facts, from the Bible (or other documents by the same author, eg the Constitution).
 
2012-06-03 11:05:50 AM

proteus_b: on average perform well in school relative to whites,


Yes because blacks have had equal schools to whites all along.
 
2012-06-03 11:06:35 AM

clambam: I know I was meaning to put you on Ignore and this kind of post reminds me of why. Bing! Adios, asshole.


I guess it's too late, but just so everyone else knows, Ignore lists are the tool that libs use to keep God out of their brains.
 
2012-06-03 11:06:36 AM

Happy Hours:
I'm not sure how a math book can be Bible-based.

There's nothing in it which contradicts math. There's not much mathematical in it at all.


I take it you haven't read the part about the Ark.
 
2012-06-03 11:06:50 AM
I invite Bill Gates, Steve Wozniak, Sergey Brin, and Larry Page to open a few voucher schools in Louisiana.

Then we invite some MBA's in to make sure the schools are run as effectively as possible.

And keep the education PhD's to a minimum. The school systems have been run by them for a century and just gotten less effective while raising the standards for teachers to the point where you need a masters in education to teach anything specialized.
 
2012-06-03 11:09:11 AM

wildcardjack: raising the standards for teachers


Cause that's such a bad thing. We should be trying to get the most qualified people to teach. We should be trying to get people with PhD's to teach high school. And there are high school teachers with PhD's in the fields they teach, so such people are around.
 
2012-06-03 11:09:23 AM

WhyteRaven74: Yes because blacks have had equal schools to whites all along.


Noone is making that claim. However, blacks in the same schools as whites perform less well than whites (on average). Blacks from middle-income families perform less well than whites from low-income families on standardized tests. Now whether or not this is a problem is another argument. Why this is is also beside the case.
 
2012-06-03 11:10:16 AM
This is what US corporations used to do to third world countries. They would get into tremendous debt and the corporation would say "We can make it all better if you let us privatize your water supply or your energy supply." Then corporations would make a killing while tripling the price of water to poor people who couldn't afford water to begin with.

At least now we know what rich people in this country think of us. We're third world and we need to be exploited until we bleed.
 
2012-06-03 11:11:06 AM
Finally a choice in education? Sweet!

zibbet-production.s3.amazonaws.com
 
2012-06-03 11:11:10 AM

Weaver95: DrewCurtisJr: Weaver95: what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so?

It can be less expensive, provide a better education, and gives parents a choice in how their kids are educated.

but would it be less expensive and provide a better education? most conservatives don't seem to care about verifying that private companies are held accountable to consumers. institutionally speaking, the GOP seems unable to admit that private companies need to be watched just as closely as public unions...


The idea is that parents will watch the school and transfer their kids out if they don't like the results.
 
2012-06-03 11:13:31 AM

BarkingUnicorn: Weaver95: DrewCurtisJr: Weaver95: what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so?

It can be less expensive, provide a better education, and gives parents a choice in how their kids are educated.

but would it be less expensive and provide a better education? most conservatives don't seem to care about verifying that private companies are held accountable to consumers. institutionally speaking, the GOP seems unable to admit that private companies need to be watched just as closely as public unions...

The idea is that parents will watch the school and transfer their kids out if they don't like the results.


That's a pretty stupid idea, then, isn't it.
 
2012-06-03 11:14:26 AM

theteacher: DrewCurtisJr: Weaver95: what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so?

It can be less expensive, provide a better education, and gives parents a choice in how their kids are educated.

Look at the results from Connecticut. Connecticut had a great Charter school program. It was radical until the companies began co-opting them. The charter school system came into place in Connecticut because they said they could provide an excellent education for way less money...and this year they were crying poor. They discovered they COULD NOT provide a better education for less money.


Interesting. The ones I know about in Florida are run by people like real estate developers who treat it like a business.

And this strategy has shown that some of these school perform even worse than the neighboring public schools.

Link
 
2012-06-03 11:16:15 AM

proteus_b: I also question the nature of "over four hundred years". "The country" itself is less than two-hundred and fifty years old. The institution of slavery in the United States lasted from the 17th to the 19th centuries. Frederick Douglass learned how to read, despite the thousands of years of under-educated ancestors.


You just can't facepalm hard enough here. It was illegal to teach slaves to read and write. Douglass was an escaped slave who never would have been permitted to do either while he was in the South.
 
2012-06-03 11:17:23 AM

Weaver95: but would it be less expensive and provide a better education? most conservatives don't seem to care about verifying that private companies are held accountable to consumers. institutionally speaking, the GOP seems unable to admit that private companies need to be watched just as closely as public unions...


By its very nature it demands accountability. If a private company is providing an education that parents don't want then parents will stop sending their children to the school and it will go out of business.


And it doesn't bother me that some of the schools might be wacky. Giving people freedom allows them to sometimes make dumb choices. Do we take away freedom of speech because it often leads to people saying things we disagree with?

 
2012-06-03 11:17:40 AM

balloot: I can't wait until the inevitable opening of a clambam: NetOwl: proteus_b: Serious Black: Actually, the best school systems in the world, including Finland and South Korea, offer absolutely no school choice and have completely public school systems. If we're supposed to learn lessons from what has been accomplished in other countries, school choice is not a lesson we should be learning.

Actually, Finland and South Korea have virtually no black people, so many of our problems are not actually represented in those systems.

Fark you.

Seriously, fark you.

It might have been fair to say "Finland and South Korea are homogeneous societies with few economically or socially-challenged minorities to bring down scholastic averages." But of course that's not what he said, so your response is perfectly appropriate.

The amazing thing is, if you take the socially and economically disadvantaged, both urban and rural, out of the equation in this country, our educational system is second to none. There is a reason why Microsoft, IBM, Apple, Facebook, Adobe and scores of other innovative business concerns were founded in this country and not, say, France. There's a reason why students come from all over the world to attend American colleges and universities and not the other way around. Our educational system kicks ass and takes names. The repub program of undercutting an institution that has made America the greatest nation in the history of the universe, militarily, economically, socially and politically, beggars the imagination in terms of foolishness and the triumph of ideology over common sense. These people are retarded, and they want everyone else to be retarded too.

--------------------------------

This. x100000


I'll see your "this" and raise you eleventy billion more "this".
 
2012-06-03 11:17:44 AM

WhyteRaven74: We should be trying to get people with PhD's to teach high school.


Don't worry, with the over-supply of PhDs, we already are starting to have PhDs teaching high-school. Anecdotally, however, they tend to give up after a few years and go to industry.
 
2012-06-03 11:19:00 AM

DrewCurtisJr: Weaver95: but would it be less expensive and provide a better education? most conservatives don't seem to care about verifying that private companies are held accountable to consumers. institutionally speaking, the GOP seems unable to admit that private companies need to be watched just as closely as public unions...

Yes. Milwaukee has had a large voucher program for a while. The results are mixed on testing but overall the kids do about the same, and both public school and voucher students test scores have been rising. Voucher students are also more likely to graduate from high school and attend college. So while vouchers aren't some miracle the system is cheaper and it has been far from a disaster.


I suspect that most achievement differences are due to the fact that private schools can cherry-pick their students while public schools must accept all.
 
2012-06-03 11:19:26 AM
"We try to stay away from all those things that might confuse our children," Carrier said.

Critical thinking is bad for kids. The world needs ditch diggers too. I guess Louisiana is in competition with Kansas over who can produce the most serfs.
 
2012-06-03 11:19:44 AM

proteus_b: we already are starting to have PhDs teaching high-school.


There have been PhD's teaching high school for ages. As odd as it may sound, that's all some want to do. I had a Latin teacher in high school who never wanted to do anything but teach high school, but all the same he went and got himself a PhD in classics.
 
2012-06-03 11:21:00 AM
The real goal isn't so much religious indoctrination, though that's what the fundies believe it is. The real purpose of this is to make Americans who aren't rich ignorant. They switch to vouchers, eventually public schools shut down, then the vouchers get eliminated. If you can't afford the 20k a year to send your kids to school, then they can go to work, because child labor laws will be repealed.
 
2012-06-03 11:21:18 AM

BarkingUnicorn: I suspect that most achievement differences are due to the fact that private schools can cherry-pick their students while public schools must accept all.


Ding, ding ding!

We have a winner!
 
2012-06-03 11:21:31 AM

Fart_Machine: You just can't facepalm hard enough here. It was illegal to teach slaves to read and write. Douglass was an escaped slave who never would have been permitted to do either while he was in the South.


It's possible to facepalm. Yes, it was illegal to educate slaves, but this was hundreds of years ago. Has black performance in school monotonically improved in the years following 1865, indicating that "it simply hasn't been long enough yet", or has black performance in school collapsed following the civil rights movement, along with the traditional black family structure?
 
2012-06-03 11:22:07 AM

apoptotic: FTA:The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.

Cripes, they've figured out a way to get state education funding while getting rid of teachers altogether.


So, basically, college-prep courses for future LSU Tigers?
 
2012-06-03 11:22:17 AM
More of that bullshiat "Parental Choice" is coming out too.

You already have a choice as a parent of where to send your kids. Home school, private school, public school. You have a choice. You may not have the means.

The answer of course vouchers. These vouchers are treated as a panacea, when all they do is siphon public money into private pockets, while uninvolved parents continue to stay uninvolved and expect the brand new charter or private school (since the good private schools still aren't accessible with a voucher) to fix all their kid's educational problems.
 
2012-06-03 11:23:15 AM
Ok, I'm tired of this drivel.

The reason they want vouchers is because they pay for education through taxes but don't use it. They want credit for that to go to the school of their choice.

Which is against the whole point of having a public education system.

/it's always about money, durr
 
2012-06-03 11:23:17 AM

proteus_b: has black performance in school collapsed following the civil rights movement


Go back to the decade previous and you might have something.
 
2012-06-03 11:23:32 AM

WhyteRaven74: wildcardjack: raising the standards for teachers

Cause that's such a bad thing. We should be trying to get the most qualified people to teach. We should be trying to get people with PhD's to teach high school. And there are high school teachers with PhD's in the fields they teach, so such people are around.


No no no... Having a PhD in chemistry teaching chem is okay, its the PhD in EDUCATION, as I posted, you need to keep out of the schools. Just don't start requiring PhDs when a BS and a few years of experience in the corporate world would be fine. I encourage people who have worked in the real world to take up education as a second career.
 
2012-06-03 11:23:34 AM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

I would love to see a bio text that refutes denies evolution; that's gotta be some grade-A comedy. Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?


It's all in "cubits" and "hands".
 
2012-06-03 11:24:15 AM

beta_plus: Awww, subby and Fark Libs are all butt hurt because those kids are going to learn how to read and they can't.


0/10.

See me after class.
 
2012-06-03 11:24:31 AM

proteus_b: Fart_Machine: You just can't facepalm hard enough here. It was illegal to teach slaves to read and write. Douglass was an escaped slave who never would have been permitted to do either while he was in the South.

It's possible to facepalm. Yes, it was illegal to educate slaves, but this was hundreds of years ago. Has black performance in school monotonically improved in the years following 1865, indicating that "it simply hasn't been long enough yet", or has black performance in school collapsed following the civil rights movement, along with the traditional black family structure?


So you believe everything magically got better after the Emancipation Proclamation was issued?
 
2012-06-03 11:25:16 AM

WhyteRaven74: There have been PhD's teaching high school for ages. As odd as it may sound, that's all some want to do. I had a Latin teacher in high school who never wanted to do anything but teach high school, but all the same he went and got himself a PhD in classics.


I never even thought to check the credentials of my own high school Latin teacher, but now that I think of it, the authoritative manner in which she spoke of the Latin language, people and history leads me to believe that she too may have also been doctored in classics. Maybe not, she didn't insist on being referred to as "doctor" (although probably most PhDs don't really want to be known as "doctor").

The main regret though, is that she did not teach us Latin dance---rumba, son, pachanga. I am trying to fill in these gaps in my education now at this late stage.
 
2012-06-03 11:28:32 AM

Curious: i was ask the other day why should parents with kids in private schools have to pay for public schools.


Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?
 
2012-06-03 11:28:59 AM

proteus_b: clambam: I know I was meaning to put you on Ignore and this kind of post reminds me of why. Bing! Adios, asshole.

I guess it's too late, but just so everyone else knows, Ignore lists are the tool that libs use to keep God out of their brains.


Actually, it's more to keep tools from our threads.
 
2012-06-03 11:31:27 AM

Fart_Machine: So you believe everything magically got better after the Emancipation Proclamation was issued?


No, of course not, but I believe that black performance has decline in the last half-century, despite the growing acceptance of blacks in society (and their commensurate rise in average income). While I am in favor of integration and delighted that we have moved out of the stone age in regards to race relations, I am also reticent about the successes of integration. Much of the black community, for better or worse, remains segregated. And the integration of a minority of blacks may have come at the expense of those who have not integrated---those living in environments with unwed parenthood approaching 90%, generational poverty and so on. Furthermore, the ability of blacks to integrate (mostly, with some remnants of racism still present) into society as a whole allows any successful blacks which may emerge from these segregated communities to "leave" and join the happier, wealthier white America.
 
2012-06-03 11:31:37 AM
I've never heard of any of this shiat, even in the Catholic schools down here. Where the fark are all these schools?
 
2012-06-03 11:32:56 AM

WhyteRaven74: wildcardjack: raising the standards for teachers

Cause that's such a bad thing. We should be trying to get the most qualified people to teach. We should be trying to get people with PhD's to teach high school. And there are high school teachers with PhD's in the fields they teach, so such people are around.


But not nearly enough, and there never will be many. If you're a hard-core software engineer, how long could you teach kids which end of a mouse is up before you went insane?
 
2012-06-03 11:35:49 AM

LectertheChef: The real goal isn't so much religious indoctrination, though that's what the fundies believe it is. The real purpose of this is to make Americans who aren't rich ignorant. They switch to vouchers, eventually public schools shut down, then the vouchers get eliminated. If you can't afford the 20k a year to send your kids to school, then they can go to work, because child labor laws will be repealed.


This may be true, but you have to believe that religious institutions would love nothing more than millions of young poorly educated people living in squalor. I can't think of a better way for them to improve their declining memberships.
 
2012-06-03 11:36:15 AM

BarkingUnicorn: I suspect that most achievement differences are due to the fact that private schools can cherry-pick their students while public schools must accept all.


Only very poor students are eligible for vouchers and private schools that participate in the school choice program.
 
2012-06-03 11:36:42 AM
This is a back-end approach to state control of all schools. First you close the public schools, then give the money to the private schools, then you say if you want more, you have to do this thing (since I'm paying for it and all that). Such as accept these learning-disabled children or teach a certain curriculum. And basically all schools will be public schools.

As goes all government funded endeavors.
 
2012-06-03 11:36:51 AM

Weaver95:
i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?



Public schools can't have religious instruction, as it's a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Therefore, getting rid of public schools would allow for conservatives to push their religion on all kids who are in the privatized schools.

There's also some Ayn Rand-style "hurf durf if it isn't a profit-generating enterprise it's worthless to society" thrown in.
 
2012-06-03 11:37:42 AM

beta_plus: Awww, subby and Fark Libs are all butt hurt because those kids are going to learn how to read and they can't.


Butt-hurt should be hyphenated.
 
2012-06-03 11:38:05 AM
Lemme get this straight:
funneling tax dollars into a solar energy firm- bad.
Funneling tax dollars into a windowless Christian school- good.
 
2012-06-03 11:38:59 AM

BarkingUnicorn: WhyteRaven74: wildcardjack: raising the standards for teachers

Cause that's such a bad thing. We should be trying to get the most qualified people to teach. We should be trying to get people with PhD's to teach high school. And there are high school teachers with PhD's in the fields they teach, so such people are around.

But not nearly enough, and there never will be many. If you're a hard-core software engineer, how long could you teach kids which end of a mouse is up before you went insane?


Not only this, but just because someone is brilliant in his/her career does not mean that person can relay that information to students or manage a classroom. I've worked with a lot of people for whom teaching is their second career. My favorite example is a guy who was in management for years and he thought that managing a classroom would be similar to managing a business. He quit on his sixth day of teaching. Another guy became a science teacher after years working as an engineer. By the end of his first month he just stopped showing up to work--didn't formally resign, just stopped showing up because he couldn't handle dealing with teenagers all day. Some people do a fantastic job making the shift from private industry to teaching, but it's definitely not as many as you'd think.
 
2012-06-03 11:39:59 AM

BarkingUnicorn: Curious: i was ask the other day why should parents with kids in private schools have to pay for public schools.

Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?


Same reason they should pay for prisons, streetlights they dont use, roads they will never drive on, mental hospitals that they will never check into and many many other things. If they dont pay for them, they will be farking eaten by one of their fellow citizens who needs those services. Its called society, its not all about just you now. If you dont like it, go join the flotilla offshore and enjoy the Andrew Ryan Dream come true.


Seriously, you, get the fark out of my country.
 
2012-06-03 11:40:42 AM

BarkingUnicorn: Curious: i was ask the other day why should parents with kids in private schools have to pay for public schools.

Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?


Because they rely on having an educated populace to raise the overall standard of living.
 
2012-06-03 11:40:54 AM

BarkingUnicorn: Curious: i was ask the other day why should parents with kids in private schools have to pay for public schools.

Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?


So... Maybe all adults should get an equal education credit derived from the school district taxes and be allowed to spend it on whatever form of education they desire. Then a couple can spend it on a better school, a childless person could further their education or take Salsa lessons, and single parents would be farked because this is GOP talk after all.
 
2012-06-03 11:42:17 AM

jim-jim: Lemme get this straight:
funneling tax dollars into a solar energy firm- bad.
Funneling tax dollars into a windowless Christian school- good.


Which is why in America, our politicians will compromise, and they will build a window-less Christian school where SI is ignored in favor of cubits [and pi is 3] but cover the school in solar panels. Electric buses will be purchased and the school guarded by millions of dollars worth of imaging material and plenty of police officers. Both D's and R's will be happy as they will be able to funnel to money to their supporters, and the curriculum of the school and performance of the students will be an afterthought.
 
2012-06-03 11:42:32 AM
How are these schools supposed to meet the No Child Left Behind standards? Or are they exempt because they are private?
 
2012-06-03 11:44:04 AM

Franco: How are these schools supposed to meet the No Child Left Behind standards? Or are they exempt because they are private?


They are exempt. They are exempt from all state and federal testing.
 
2012-06-03 11:45:56 AM
fark it. I don't even care anymore. Less competition for my job in the future. We will continue raising a generation of retards. The only drawback is the lack of educated people to care for me when I'm older. However, I have a contingency plan. My job affords me access to Morphine, and when the time is right, a large IM bolus should do the trick.
 
2012-06-03 11:48:02 AM

theteacher: They are exempt. They are exempt from all state and federal testing.


Not for long:

FTA: To date, private schools have not had to give their students state standardized tests, so there's no straightforward way for parents to judge their performance. Starting next year, any student on a voucher will have to take the tests; each private school must report individual results to parents and aggregate results to the state.
 
2012-06-03 11:48:03 AM
Until America accepts that stand and deliver is not the only pedagogical model out there, school choice is pretty much a joke.
 
2012-06-03 11:49:24 AM

DrewCurtisJr: BarkingUnicorn: I suspect that most achievement differences are due to the fact that private schools can cherry-pick their students while public schools must accept all.

Only very poor students are eligible for vouchers and private schools that participate in the school choice program.


How exactly does that diminish anything he just said?
 
2012-06-03 11:50:00 AM
Yeah if there is anything this country needs to be successful in the new millinium it's get rid of organized health care and education. The next generation should be wildly successful without those twin albatrosses around their collective necks.
 
2012-06-03 11:52:25 AM

TheShavingofOccam123: This is what US corporations used to do to third world countries. They would get into tremendous debt and the corporation would say "We can make it all better if you let us privatize your water supply or your energy supply." Then corporations would make a killing while tripling the price of water to poor people who couldn't afford water to begin with.

At least now we know what rich people in this country think of us. We're third world and we need to be exploited until we bleed.


I see you've read Confessions of an Economic Hitman.
 
2012-06-03 11:52:35 AM

meat0918: BarkingUnicorn: Curious: i was ask the other day why should parents with kids in private schools have to pay for public schools.

Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?

Because they rely on having an educated populace to raise the overall standard of living.


And all that goes pretty much out the window with Louisiana, huh?:)
 
2012-06-03 11:55:25 AM

Fart_Machine: How exactly does that diminish anything he just said?


The schools aren't exactly "cherry picking" from the best batch of cherries. And besides schools in the school choice program must accept all students and if there are more applications than slots open they must choose students are random.
 
2012-06-03 11:58:03 AM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."


20 years ago, we did just that. Now, we're saying to Louisiana, "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Mississippi."

Or, in other words, we failed.
 
2012-06-03 11:59:27 AM

DrewCurtisJr: Fart_Machine: How exactly does that diminish anything he just said?

The schools aren't exactly "cherry picking" from the best batch of cherries. And besides schools in the school choice program must accept all students and if there are more applications than slots open they must choose students are random.


What about when students don't meet certain behavioral and/or academic standards once they attend? And when those students are exited, how are they counted?

Also, what are the mobility statistics like for those schools?

And while we're at it, what are the percentages of second language learners in them?

And heck, let's throw in what the Free and Reduced lunch rate is while we're at it.
 
2012-06-03 12:00:55 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?


I have no problem with childless people not paying for public schools.

As long as they're willing to give up all the benefits of publicly-funded medical care and scientific research, the FDA, the EPA, infrastructure, police, firefighters, pretty much every government service that requires a bunch of people with at least high school diplomas to provide -which is everything.
 
2012-06-03 12:00:57 PM

DrewCurtisJr: theteacher: They are exempt. They are exempt from all state and federal testing.

Not for long:

FTA: To date, private schools have not had to give their students state standardized tests, so there's no straightforward way for parents to judge their performance. Starting next year, any student on a voucher will have to take the tests; each private school must report individual results to parents and aggregate results to the state.


That's only state testing. NCLB standards wouldn't technically be applicable because private schools don't receive federal education monies. And those standards - as flawed as some may be - go far beyond mere standardized testing. They're also not beholden to the requirements of the IDEA.
 
2012-06-03 12:02:14 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Fart_Machine: How exactly does that diminish anything he just said?

The schools aren't exactly "cherry picking" from the best batch of cherries. And besides schools in the school choice program must accept all students and if there are more applications than slots open they must choose students are random.


Charters have ways around this. They might have to accept kids, but they are permitted to kick them out FAR more easily than a regular public school. Every spring in my city public school we'd have a massive influx of students who had been kicked out of their charters and had to return to their neighborhood city schools, sometimes for the most incredibly stupid reasons. One of the charters around here doesn't even have to accept students with multiple disabilities next school year because they're whining that it's "too expensive" to maintain a classroom for them.
 
2012-06-03 12:02:54 PM

proteus_b: Fart_Machine: You just can't facepalm hard enough here. It was illegal to teach slaves to read and write. Douglass was an escaped slave who never would have been permitted to do either while he was in the South.

It's possible to facepalm. Yes, it was illegal to educate slaves, but this was hundreds of years ago. Has black performance in school monotonically improved in the years following 1865, indicating that "it simply hasn't been long enough yet", or has black performance in school collapsed following the civil rights movement, along with the traditional black family structure?


You're mistaken if you think that "settled" anything. The educational gap also falls along socioeconomic status. There's also an educational gap among genders In fact, if you take a look at "underachieving group X" compared to achieving group "y", the odds are that group X has a history of holding a minority status in relation to a more dominant group (y).

In other words, the common denominator among "under-performers" is not their blackness but their distinction as being a minority group member.
 
2012-06-03 12:04:22 PM
This is why I'm convinced that public education needs to be handled *entirely* by the feds.

The individual states and municipalities can't be trusted. It's too easy for Bible-thumping idiots to take over local and state school boards, and ruin an entire generation of children. Never mind that local school administrators are some of the most incompetent bureaucrats in government.

At the national level, that kind of craziness doesn't fly At least, not yet.
 
2012-06-03 12:04:54 PM

Rann Xerox: The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.

Chemistry done in biblical verses??? WTF??? They must have f*cked up the symbols of the Periodic Table.

"Tommy? What is the Periodic Table symbol for oxygen?"
"John 3:16, teacher."
"Very good, Tommy."


gOd
 
2012-06-03 12:05:42 PM

The Name: BarkingUnicorn: Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?

I have no problem with childless people not paying for public schools.

As long as they're willing to give up all the benefits of publicly-funded medical care and scientific research, the FDA, the EPA, infrastructure, police, firefighters, pretty much every government service that requires a bunch of people with at least high school diplomas to provide -which is everything.


THIS. I'm getting tired of this "I don't have to pay for something if I don't notice a benefit for it" attitude. A side-effect of the right's war on education is the tunnel-vision caused by linear thinking. Somehow we've thrown the core principle of civilization out the window and replaced it with a mantra that says you are entitled to all the benefits of living in a society and all the freedom-of-choice of living outside of a society.
 
2012-06-03 12:06:32 PM

IlGreven: Don't Troll Me Bro!: We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

20 years ago, we did just that. Now, we're saying to Louisiana, "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Mississippi."

Or, in other words, we failed.


There's always one or two slow learners in the class. The important thing is that the rest of us doesn't look like Mississippi.
 
2012-06-03 12:06:56 PM

Bontesla: The educational gap also falls along socioeconomic status


This, however, is not true.

Bontesla: In other words, the common denominator among "under-performers" is not their blackness but their distinction as being a minority group member.


This is also not true, generically. Some minority group members perform better than the average. An obvious example is Asian-Americans.
 
2012-06-03 12:07:17 PM

DrewCurtisJr: The schools aren't exactly "cherry picking" from the best batch of cherries. And besides schools in the school choice program must accept all students and if there are more applications than slots open they must choose students are random.


That depends on the state. Many states with school choice programs (and I need to research further, but I'm fairly sure most such states) do not have such a requirement.
 
2012-06-03 12:10:25 PM

Weaver95: Mrtraveler01:
But of course Conservatives wouldn't like that because it conflicts with their true goal of teaching children Conservative orthodoxy in public schools.

i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?


Because they are still butt hurt about desegregation and ANY Federal money with strings attached. You know the strings that are so terrible -- here's money for reading programs for elementary schools, no you can't move it to a general fund and use for anything else.

Here's money to help provide medical care for poor kids, you must use it to provide medical care for poor kids -- I'm looking at you FLORIDA!
 
2012-06-03 12:10:30 PM
It's almost as if private businesses care more about making money than anything else.
 
2012-06-03 12:10:38 PM

Salt Lick Steady: DrewCurtisJr: The schools aren't exactly "cherry picking" from the best batch of cherries. And besides schools in the school choice program must accept all students and if there are more applications than slots open they must choose students are random.

That depends on the state. Many states with school choice programs (and I need to research further, but I'm fairly sure most such states) do not have such a requirement.


I should clarify; when it comes to private schools in the school choice program there is generally no such requirement. Charter schools are public schools, and so generally they do have such a requirement.
 
2012-06-03 12:10:51 PM

proteus_b: Bontesla: The educational gap also falls along socioeconomic status

This, however, is not true.


Education Gap Grows Between Rich and Poor, Studies Say
 
2012-06-03 12:11:47 PM

proteus_b: Bontesla: The educational gap also falls along socioeconomic status

This, however, is not true.


Wut?
 
2012-06-03 12:12:29 PM

Garble: It's almost as if private businesses care more about making money than anything else.


I know right?

And these are the kind of people we want running our schools?
 
2012-06-03 12:13:45 PM

Fart_Machine: Education Gap Grows Between Rich and Poor, Studies Say


I'm not claiming that that gap doesn't exist. I'm claiming that middle-income blacks perform similarly to and worse than lower-income whites. Therefore income and wealth alone are not likely responsible for the black-white gap (I'm not talking about the rich-poor gap, nor denying its obvious existence). I'm also not really talking about the causes of this gap---merely pointing out its existence and nature.
 
2012-06-03 12:15:16 PM

realmolo: This is why I'm convinced that public education needs to be handled *entirely* by the feds.

The individual states and municipalities can't be trusted. It's too easy for Bible-thumping idiots to take over local and state school boards, and ruin an entire generation of children. Never mind that local school administrators are some of the most incompetent bureaucrats in government.

At the national level, that kind of craziness doesn't fly At least, not yet.


If it's left up to the local districts, the biblefarkers have to infiltrate every local district in the country. If it's left up to the feds alone, the biblefarkers just have to get 51% of the federal government. It's a much more unstable situation. Federal mandates for one-size-fits-all directives (e.g. "no bible-based anything") while leaving the particulars up to the local districts is safer and allows for innovation. The side-effect of fundies infiltrating and establishing Christian Sharia where they can is unfortunate but unavoidable as long as we continue to pretend these religious whack-jobs are anything but cultists.
 
2012-06-03 12:15:38 PM
So basically the folks who hate welfare want to raise a bunch of kids who will end up on welfare.

I'll say it again, just for posterity. All this ass-backwards sh*t happening in red states will lead to the almost total erosion of states rights, in all but the most token bits. When you have states full of poor, uneducated folk unqualified to do anything but unskilled labor, labor which is being further and further automated so as to not need these folks' labor, and state governments cut down and privatized, you will be left with a situation wherein the federal government will have to step in, the rest of us will have to pay more in income taxes and then the US government will dictate heavy stipulations to these states which have tried to disabuse themselves of the very concept of democratic governance. The reactionary rhetoric and policies are only serving to usher in the top-heavy, directive federal government the rubes on the right seek to avoid.
 
2012-06-03 12:17:28 PM
Waiting for Superman

Bureaucracy and teacher unions are killing the school system.
 
2012-06-03 12:19:44 PM

MugzyBrown: Waiting for Superman

Bureaucracy and teacher unions are killing the school system.


How so?
 
2012-06-03 12:19:51 PM

John Dewey: What about when students don't meet certain behavioral and/or academic standards once they attend? And when those students are exited, how are they counted?

Also, what are the mobility statistics like for those schools?

And while we're at it, what are the percentages of second language learners in them?

And heck, let's throw in what the Free and Reduced lunch rate is while we're at it.


If you really want to know, and aren't just looking for excuses to dismiss any evidence that doesn't support your position, you can look it up here.
 
2012-06-03 12:20:12 PM

Mrtraveler01: Garble: It's almost as if private businesses care more about making money than anything else.

I know right?

And these are the kind of people we want running our schools?


In all fairness, I do send my kid to a private, secular school. I would gladly change this if our society took public education more seriously.
 
2012-06-03 12:20:26 PM

Sabyen91: This, however, is not true.


Sorry, I believed that he meant "the black-white gap is explained solely by socio-economic status". Obviously the "rich poor gap" does fall along socio-economic status, with rich kids performing better than poor ones.
 
2012-06-03 12:22:01 PM

MugzyBrown: Waiting for Superman

Bureaucracy and teacher unions are killing the school system.


Yes.

That's why schools with weak teacher unions like Mississippi perform better than schools with stronger teach unions like in New Jersey and Massachusetts.

Oh wait...
 
2012-06-03 12:22:18 PM
This won't be spectacularly abused by accept-my-version-of-Jesus proselytizers, greed-is-good sociopaths, and straight-up grifters at all.
 
2012-06-03 12:23:25 PM

Portia: DrewCurtisJr: Fart_Machine: How exactly does that diminish anything he just said?

The schools aren't exactly "cherry picking" from the best batch of cherries. And besides schools in the school choice program must accept all students and if there are more applications than slots open they must choose students are random.

Charters have ways around this. They might have to accept kids, but they are permitted to kick them out FAR more easily than a regular public school. Every spring in my city public school we'd have a massive influx of students who had been kicked out of their charters and had to return to their neighborhood city schools, sometimes for the most incredibly stupid reasons. One of the charters around here doesn't even have to accept students with multiple disabilities next school year because they're whining that it's "too expensive" to maintain a classroom for them.


Excellent point.

My daughter went to a very good Catholic academy (we are not religious and the school was very philosophical about religious education), but we had to pay for speech services for her lisp. When my sons were of school age, we were told not to have them attend, as one of them has some behavior/academic issues. We lucked out in being in the best elementary district in Chicago, and the school was fantastic.

The mental image of kids being stuck in a windlowless room forced to watch religious DVDs all day will haunt me forever. I agree it's child abuse.

Maybe we should open a FSM academy and get some voucher kids. We'll sue if not allowed to operate, then donate the proceeds to the public schools.
 
2012-06-03 12:23:44 PM

proteus_b: Sabyen91: This, however, is not true.

Sorry, I believed that he meant "the black-white gap is explained solely by socio-economic status". Obviously the "rich poor gap" does fall along socio-economic status, with rich kids performing better than poor ones.


This is what every parent who wants their kids to end up a welfare-dependent adult believes.
 
2012-06-03 12:25:20 PM

MugzyBrown: Waiting for Superman

Bureaucracy and teacher unions are killing the school system.


^ Meant to quote this one right here.


Sorry, I believed that he meant "the black-white gap is explained solely by socio-economic status". Obviously the "rich poor gap" does fall along socio-economic status, with rich kids performing better than poor ones.

This is what every parent who wants their kids to end up a welfare-dependent adult believes.
 
2012-06-03 12:26:41 PM

proteus_b: Fart_Machine: Education Gap Grows Between Rich and Poor, Studies Say

I'm not claiming that that gap doesn't exist. I'm claiming that middle-income blacks perform similarly to and worse than lower-income whites. Therefore income and wealth alone are not likely responsible for the black-white gap (I'm not talking about the rich-poor gap, nor denying its obvious existence). I'm also not really talking about the causes of this gap---merely pointing out its existence and nature.


According to the studies in the article, the gap between black and white students has significantly narrowed. Between differences in income is where the real gap is.
 
2012-06-03 12:28:05 PM
The Republicans here in Utah tried that shiat a couple of years ago. Actually got a bill passed but the citizens organized a petition drive to throw it out. Ever since that happened they have been trying end runs on the same concept. Assholes, both the politicians and the voters that keep them in office.
 
2012-06-03 12:29:46 PM

DrewCurtisJr: John Dewey: What about when students don't meet certain behavioral and/or academic standards once they attend? And when those students are exited, how are they counted?

Also, what are the mobility statistics like for those schools?

And while we're at it, what are the percentages of second language learners in them?

And heck, let's throw in what the Free and Reduced lunch rate is while we're at it.

If you really want to know, and aren't just looking for excuses to dismiss any evidence that doesn't support your position, you can look it up here.


I have yet to find any of my questions answered in those docs after perusing through four of them.

I will say, however, that I did find something quite significant that I have been advocating for for quite a few years: MPCP schools on average were half the size of MPS schools. I think that is a significant lesson that should not be overlooked. Among other things, I believe further study might show that will account for the fact that while MPCP teachers are less likely to be licensed and have a master's degree, they still perform equally with their MPS counterparts.
 
2012-06-03 12:31:10 PM
It's as though so many Americans are uneducated about how a public school system works, and there is a political party actively trying to prevent them from learning this, so voters believe that you can just privatize the whole thing and somehow robber barons won't rig the whole market for their favor and at the expense of the consumer - or in this case, the student.

So odd.
 
2012-06-03 12:31:17 PM

Weaver95: NetOwl: These religious "schools" are child abuse.

Most stupid Republican ideas are just bad, but this will ruin thousands of kids' lives. Denying a kid education destroys the kid at the most fundamental level. It's sick.

well...done well, I don't have any philosophical objection to a religious based education - it CAN work, if done right.

what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so? how can we be sure that a private company can do the job better? how do we even measure 'better'? what choices will poor kids be given under this new system of education, and how will it be paid for?


It's based on "infallible market" doctrine. Competition must make everything better, always. Never mind that competition can in fact lead to forms of inefficiency and perverse incentives where and when applied inappropriately. Never mind that where vouchers have been tried, as in Washington DC, they haven't improved educational outcomes.
 
2012-06-03 12:32:00 PM

Portia: Charters have ways around this. They might have to accept kids, but they are permitted to kick them out FAR more easily than a regular public school.


Then the students can attend another school with their vouchers, they don't necessary have to go to back to public school.
 
2012-06-03 12:33:43 PM

StoneColdAtheist: Strip away all the duff and this is the bottom line. White Southerners will go to extreme lengths to avoid having their snowflakes have to rub elbows with "the laggers and the attractive and successful African-Americans". With this law change they've found a way that is (arguably) constitutionally defensible, since there is no mention of color or of what type religious schools are permitted.


Doh! I thought by using the form of the n-word that rymes with lagger that I'd escape the filter pawn.

*hangs head in shame*
 
2012-06-03 12:34:10 PM

forgotmydamnusername:
It's based on "infallible market" doctrine. Competition must make everything better, always. Never mind that competition can in fact lead to forms of inefficiency and perverse incentives where and when applied inappropriately. Never mind that where vouchers have been tried, as in Washington DC, they haven't improved educational outcomes.


The conservative response is basically that it wasn't conservative enough.

Just like "McCain lost because he wasn't conservative enough", "the financial collapse of 2007-2008 happened because banks weren't deregulated enough", etc.
 
2012-06-03 12:34:30 PM

Fart_Machine: According to the studies in the article, the gap between black and white students has significantly narrowed. Between differences in income is where the real gap is.


Yes, you are right, both of those are true. However perhaps what has happened is that the educational gap per wealth gap has grown, while the percentage of blacks who are poor has shrunk. Thus, it is possible (as has been reported in other studies) that there is a black-white gap which exists even after controlling for income/wealth. E.g. that lower-class whites may outperform middle-class blacks in standardized tests.
 
2012-06-03 12:35:38 PM

proteus_b: while the percentage of blacks who are poor has shrunk.


In fact this statement reads easier as "the percentage of poor who are blacks".
 
2012-06-03 12:36:07 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Portia: Charters have ways around this. They might have to accept kids, but they are permitted to kick them out FAR more easily than a regular public school.

Then the students can attend another school with their vouchers, they don't necessary have to go to back to public school.


But the argument is that the reason Charter Schools have better scores than public schools is because Charter Schools have the luxury to pick and choose who can attend in order to boost up the score. Which is a luxury, public schools don't have.

But someone Florida manages to Fark that up somehow and now some of the worst schools in Florida are Charter Schools.
 
2012-06-03 12:36:34 PM

DrewCurtisJr:
If you really want to know, and aren't just looking for excuses to dismiss any evidence that doesn't support your position, you can look it up here.


I also find this to be rather significant -

Black-White and Latino-White achievement gaps are larger in the MPCP than among FRL students in MPS

Also...

more MPCP students (3%) than MPS students (1%) opted out of testing
 
2012-06-03 12:37:00 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Portia: Charters have ways around this. They might have to accept kids, but they are permitted to kick them out FAR more easily than a regular public school.

Then the students can attend another school with their vouchers, they don't necessary have to go to back to public school.


Sure, if there is 1) a charter in the neighborhood or which provides transportation for a student to get there 2) with space in it 3) if it's during an enrollment period (many charters only accept new enrollments during certain points in the year) and 4) that will accept an expelled student--not all states require them to do so.
 
2012-06-03 12:37:21 PM
Charter schools: some do better, most do no better or worse, and some suck balls.

You know, just like all the f*cking schools out there. Some are good, some are bad, and some are in the middle.

But in a public school, you have a say by voting, by the PTA, or by running to join the school board yourself.

I know, it's crazy, but an active, educated voting public tends to do better than a group of folks who believe taxes and government are inherently bad.
 
2012-06-03 12:38:01 PM

forgotmydamnusername:
It's based on "infallible market" doctrine. Competition must make everything better, always. Never mind that competition can in fact lead to forms of inefficiency and perverse incentives where and when applied inappropriately. Never mind that where vouchers have been tried, as in Washington DC, they haven't improved educational outcomes.




Speaking of free market inefficiencies, what do you think happens when someone has a MONOPOLY? Such as public education.

Vouchers = choice.

You can't force people to make the "right choice," which is what government does when it forces you to send your kid to a public school, learn that the gay lifestyle is normal, and that people descended from monkeys.

Seems the only "choice" that liberals are interested in is the choice to terminate an innocent life, or the choice to stick your peepee in a poo hole.
 
2012-06-03 12:38:40 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Portia: Charters have ways around this. They might have to accept kids, but they are permitted to kick them out FAR more easily than a regular public school.

Then the students can attend another school with their vouchers, they don't necessary have to go to back to public school.


Most states allow charters to reject students based on former disciplinary issues, and that's precisely what charters tend to use as a reason to kick students out. So yeah, often the only option is to return to a regular public school.

And again, charters are public schools.
 
2012-06-03 12:39:46 PM

DrewCurtisJr: BarkingUnicorn: I suspect that most achievement differences are due to the fact that private schools can cherry-pick their students while public schools must accept all.

Only very poor students are eligible for vouchers and private schools that participate in the school choice program.


I find it hard to believe that only very poor students are eligible for vouchers. Students in poorly performing schools, perhaps. And yes, I'm aware of the correlation between poverty and academics.
 
2012-06-03 12:40:54 PM

proteus_b: Fart_Machine: So you believe everything magically got better after the Emancipation Proclamation was issued?

No, of course not, but I believe that black gender/low-income/other minority group performance has decline in the last half-century, despite the growing acceptance of blacks gender/low-income/other minority group in society (and their commensurate rise in average income).


This is the problem with your responses. You're singling out one minority group to prove your argument regarding that minority group. You're failing to take in consideration that other minority groups are facing the same problems

While I am in favor of integration

How generous of you . . .

and delighted that we have moved out of the stone age in regards to race relations, I am also reticent about the successes of integration.

Well, have you let the blacks know that you're okay with them living in your country?

But, seriously, let's talk about this. Functionally, do minority groups have the same access to resources (legal redress, education, career opportunity, and so on)? I'm not talking about equal language in the law. I'm talking about how laws are implemented. I'm talking about the actual function of society. Do minority groups have the same access?

The answer is no. So, if you're surprised that there's an educational gap then you're not paying attention.

Much of the black community, for better or worse, remains segregated.

Does White Flight ring a bell? No? Hmm. Gerrymandering? Ah. Perhaps you should, again, remind black people that you're tooooootally okay with them living in your country. That should encourage them to integrate further.

And the integration of a minority of blacks may have come at the expense of those who have not integrated

Wait - so blacks have successfully integrated (with your permission) yet remain segregated - but their integration is hurting others? Oh my goodness. You think black people are magic. This explains so much about your remaining comments.


---those living in environments with unwed parenthood approaching 90%,

You know what helps reduce the numbers of unwed parenthood? Access to adequate sex ed, birth control, and abortions. It's funny that you mention these things specifically because ALL of these things are currently being ruled back throughout the nation. But . . . you know . . . it's the blacks?

generational poverty and so on.

Really? And so on?

But let's talk about generational poverty. I'm not sure you've adequately expressed that you are personally okay with the blacks using your things. Perhaps if you just got the message out they would suddenly find adequate education to pull themselves out of poverty while gaining adequate access to sex ed, contraception, and abortion.

Furthermore, the ability of blacks to integrate

Do you mean assimilate?

(mostly, with some remnants of racism still present) into society as a whole allows any successful blacks which may emerge from these segregated communities to "leave" and join the happier, wealthier white America.

Again . . . have you told the magical black folk that live within your universe that you are okay with them using your things? Because . . . I think that would go really far . . .

Ffs.

encrypted-tbn2.google.com
 
2012-06-03 12:41:42 PM

Cats_Lie: forgotmydamnusername:
It's based on "infallible market" doctrine. Competition must make everything better, always. Never mind that competition can in fact lead to forms of inefficiency and perverse incentives where and when applied inappropriately. Never mind that where vouchers have been tried, as in Washington DC, they haven't improved educational outcomes.



Speaking of free market inefficiencies, what do you think happens when someone has a MONOPOLY? Such as public education.

Vouchers = choice.

You can't force people to make the "right choice," which is what government does when it forces you to send your kid to a public school, learn that the gay lifestyle is normal, and that people descended from monkeys.

Seems the only "choice" that liberals are interested in is the choice to terminate an innocent life, or the choice to stick your peepee in a poo hole.


Nice lie there. It sure would work out if private schools hadn't existed for, oh, I don't know, the entire history of the United States. And if some of those private schools weren't known as the most prestigious and exclusive of all the schools in the country.

There has always been a choice. There hasn't ever been a monopoly. If you have a problem with the public school in you area, again, there are ways to take up that issue. I didn't say it was an easy one but since you seem to believe charter schools are a choice and by that criterion alone makes them better, I don't take it you have a great attention to details.
 
2012-06-03 12:42:36 PM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

I would love to see a bio text that refutes denies evolution; that's gotta be some grade-A comedy. Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?


I'm pretty sure you can already do that for Louisiana.
 
2012-06-03 12:43:02 PM

Cats_Lie: [trololololololololol]


Stop being boring.
 
2012-06-03 12:44:44 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: realmolo: This is why I'm convinced that public education needs to be handled *entirely* by the feds.

The individual states and municipalities can't be trusted. It's too easy for Bible-thumping idiots to take over local and state school boards, and ruin an entire generation of children. Never mind that local school administrators are some of the most incompetent bureaucrats in government.

At the national level, that kind of craziness doesn't fly At least, not yet.

If it's left up to the local districts, the biblefarkers have to infiltrate every local district in the country. If it's left up to the feds alone, the biblefarkers just have to get 51% of the federal government. It's a much more unstable situation. Federal mandates for one-size-fits-all directives (e.g. "no bible-based anything") while leaving the particulars up to the local districts is safer and allows for innovation. The side-effect of fundies infiltrating and establishing Christian Sharia where they can is unfortunate but unavoidable as long as we continue to pretend these religious whack-jobs are anything but cultists.



What would be nice is if certain private companies that deal with education would restrict what they do to a more local model - that would help contain the crazy as well. But they don't do that because it costs them more, so morons like the Texas State Textbook Committee end up ruining education across a big part of the country.
 
2012-06-03 12:44:48 PM

verbaltoxin:

Nice lie there. It sure would work out if private schools hadn't existed for, oh, I don't know, the entire history of the United States. And if some of those private schools weren't known as the most prestigious and exclusive of all the schools in the country.

There has always been a choice. There hasn't ever been a monopoly. If you have a problem with the public school in you area, again, there are ways to take up that issue. I didn't say it was an easy one but since you seem to believe charter schools are a choice and by that criterion alone makes them better, I don't take it you have a great attention to details.



You don't have a choice if you can't afford it. Vouchers just give the same freedom to the poor that we have always given to the rich. Why are you in favor of disadvantaging children from economically underprivileged families? What are you trying to protect?
 
2012-06-03 12:45:46 PM

proteus_b: However perhaps what has happened is that the educational gap per wealth gap has grown, while the percentage of blacks who are poor has shrunk. Thus, it is possible (as has been reported in other studies) that there is a black-white gap which exists even after controlling for income/wealth. E.g. that lower-class whites may outperform middle-class blacks in standardized tests.


However, perhaps what is happening is that you just keep moving the goalposts to make sure that blacks are less intelligent than whites. I think that's far more likely int his instance.
 
2012-06-03 12:45:58 PM
For all the folks who are up in arms about unions: are you likewise against the Chamber of Commerce?

Are you against professional organizations where management groups confer and discuss strategies and share information and what measures to take to lobbying for industry standards?

Unions are the same thing, save that they organize the labor side of things. Every time you shout how unions are killing business, you need to understand that if unions are killing business, so are every damn CoC and industry organization, in the same fashion. That includes the RIAA, that includes every agricultural and industry lobby, every conference of industry leaders. It's the SAME thing, save that it's management organizing, as opposed to labor.

If you oppose labor organizing, then why aren't you equally incensed at management organizing?
 
2012-06-03 12:46:35 PM

Mrtraveler01: But the argument is that the reason Charter Schools have better scores than public schools is because Charter Schools have the luxury to pick and choose who can attend in order to boost up the score. Which is a luxury, public schools don't have.


Like I wrote before this really isn't the case in Milwaukee.

And as I'm told in just about every thread about public schools, the standardized testing results are so important to public schools that public schools spend a tremendous amount of time "teaching to the test".
 
2012-06-03 12:46:52 PM

Cats_Lie: You don't have a choice if you can't afford it. Vouchers just give the same freedom to the poor that we have always given to the rich. Why are you in favor of disadvantaging children from economically underprivileged families? What are you trying to protect?


Nope. The fancy schools will just up their price high enough above the voucher to keep the riff raff out.
 
2012-06-03 12:47:32 PM

Cats_Lie: You can't force people to make the "right choice," which is what government does when it forces you to send your kid to a public school, learn that the gay lifestyle is normal, and that people descended from monkeys.


i.qkme.me
 
2012-06-03 12:48:07 PM

Weaver95: shpritz: Weaver95:
i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?

I reckon "Government=BAD" dogma is the official line.

ok, but I wanted an actual reason, not the boiler plate propaganda non-answer.


My crackpot theory about this -- they don't even care. It's another IGMSFY thing.

A large share of Republican voters are already sending their kids to parochial schools or private academies. Here in WI there are many, many Lutheran and Catholic schools, and Walker's been trying to expand the existing voucher program to more counties and up into solidly middle class incomes. The parochial schools won't see much of this new voucher money unless they raise tuition or enrollment skyockets; they would be getting all the same tuition they've always collected.

In those cases the voucher money goes into the parents' pockets. It's a kickback to likely Republican voters funded by siphoning from public education budgets.
 
2012-06-03 12:48:14 PM

12349876: Cats_Lie: You don't have a choice if you can't afford it. Vouchers just give the same freedom to the poor that we have always given to the rich. Why are you in favor of disadvantaging children from economically underprivileged families? What are you trying to protect?

Nope. The fancy schools will just up their price high enough above the voucher to keep the riff raff out.


So you prefer a system where the poor have exactly one choice, to rely on the government?
 
2012-06-03 12:49:53 PM

Bontesla:

encrypted-tbn2.google.com


Let's see, we have had around, what, 3 centuries or so of enlightened civilization, more or less?
so 4,000,000,000 years vs. 300 years, or 300/4,000,000,000 = 0.000000075 enlightened

Or just considering the 2,000,000 years of Human evolution, 300/2,000,000=0.00015 enlightened

Yup, he's pretty much acting like it.
 
2012-06-03 12:50:03 PM

Mrtraveler01: But the argument is that the reason Charter Schools have better scores than public schools is because Charter Schools have the luxury to pick and choose who can attend in order to boost up the score. Which is a luxury, public schools don't have.


No. Florida law does NOT allow charters to pick and choose whom they accept.
 
2012-06-03 12:50:04 PM

DrewCurtisJr: BarkingUnicorn: I suspect that most achievement differences are due to the fact that private schools can cherry-pick their students while public schools must accept all.

Only very poor students are eligible for vouchers and private schools that participate in the school choice program.


Oh, another thing: even among financially poor students there are those who are bright and will be cherry-picked, leaving the public schools with the toughest cases and less money.
 
2012-06-03 12:50:11 PM

Wyalt Derp: dababler: Are Republicans really against "set theory" in math!?

Anything that's "just a theory" doesn't belong in the Republican classroom, only facts, from the Bible (or other documents by the same author, eg the Constitution).


But, set theory is totally not really a "theory". WTF I'm tired of people who are not scholars in a subject deciding what's best taught in said subject.
 
2012-06-03 12:51:11 PM
Does "Bible Math" explain how Noah managed to fit 2 of the every 8+ million known land species onto a single boat so they wouldn't drown in a worldwide flood? 16 million animals gathered from every corner of the world ON FOOT, crammed onto one boat made of wood by hand -- what's NOT to love about that math equation?

When you're a desert-dwelling, sheep-hearing sand cult, your world is very small and you can believe this shiat. Your entire world is the valley you were born and will die in. But in the modern era, you literally have to brainwash your children and protect them from knowledge in order to keep them believing the same bullshiat.
 
2012-06-03 12:51:34 PM

Bontesla: Again . . . have you told the magical black folk that live within your universe that you are okay with them using your things? Because . . . I think that would go really far . . .


Magical black folk? The next door neighbors on both sides of my house where I grew up are black. And except for the color of their skin, have rather little in common with poor blacks in the ghetto. My point is that blacks who are successful move out of the ghettoes and the positive role models they might have been do not exist. Well perhaps they serve as positive role models to suburban whites that blacks are not all just a bunch of gang-bangers with speed, but are actually equally capable of being successful in all walks of life. Which is good. But removing the positive role models from the black communities is probably not good for those communities.

You sound kind of hysterical. I just saw this movie about the subject.
 
2012-06-03 12:51:35 PM

proteus_b: Fart_Machine: According to the studies in the article, the gap between black and white students has significantly narrowed. Between differences in income is where the real gap is.

Yes, you are right, both of those are true. However perhaps what has happened is that the educational gap per wealth gap has grown, while the percentage of blacks who are poor has shrunk. Thus, it is possible (as has been reported in other studies) that there is a black-white gap which exists even after controlling for income/wealth. E.g. that lower-class whites may outperform middle-class blacks in standardized tests.


You keep wanting to focus on the race aspect here. Black and white students are about on par with each other. If what you say is correct then poor whites would be vastly outperforming their black counterparts and that isn't the case.
 
2012-06-03 12:52:12 PM

Salt Lick Steady: Mrtraveler01: But the argument is that the reason Charter Schools have better scores than public schools is because Charter Schools have the luxury to pick and choose who can attend in order to boost up the score. Which is a luxury, public schools don't have.

No. Florida law does NOT allow charters to pick and choose whom they accept.


The point is in that some states charters do not have to accept a kid who has been expelled from his/her previous school, thus alleviating themselves of some of the worst troublemakers. That allows them a certain level of choice that a regular public school is not permitted to have. I don't know the case in Florida.
 
2012-06-03 12:52:15 PM

DrewCurtisJr: And as I'm told in just about every thread about public schools, the standardized testing results are so important to public schools that public schools spend a tremendous amount of time "teaching to the test".


I wonder what most people who say "teaching to the test" mean. I wonder if they envision teachers spoon feeding answers and/or material. I don't see that going on in schools so much as I see teachers keeping learning at a very low cognitive level. This creates a very boring and dry atmosphere that actually demeans the abilities of students and sets up a vicious cycle of low expectations and failure.

That being said, one of my many problems with standardized testing is that most math, writing, and science tests aren't actually measuring math, writing, and science knowledge or abilities. They are simply reading comprehension tests that happen to have math, writing, and science as the content. Generally speaking, i would say math is guiltier than the others.
 
2012-06-03 12:53:34 PM

orclover: BarkingUnicorn: Curious: i was ask the other day why should parents with kids in private schools have to pay for public schools.

Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?

Same reason they should pay for prisons, streetlights they dont use, roads they will never drive on, mental hospitals that they will never check into and many many other things. If they dont pay for them, they will be farking eaten by one of their fellow citizens who needs those services. Its called society, its not all about just you now. If you dont like it, go join the flotilla offshore and enjoy the Andrew Ryan Dream come true.


Seriously, you, get the fark out of my country.


It was a rhetorical question, which you answered very well. Seems I accidentally deleted the ID of the Farker to whom I posed the question, so it seemed as if I posed his question too.
 
2012-06-03 12:53:51 PM

Cats_Lie: 12349876: Cats_Lie: You don't have a choice if you can't afford it. Vouchers just give the same freedom to the poor that we have always given to the rich. Why are you in favor of disadvantaging children from economically underprivileged families? What are you trying to protect?

Nope. The fancy schools will just up their price high enough above the voucher to keep the riff raff out.

So you prefer a system where the poor have exactly one choice, to rely on the government?


The poor are still dependent on the government for that voucher.
 
2012-06-03 12:53:51 PM

NetOwl: Weaver95: NetOwl: These religious "schools" are child abuse.

Most stupid Republican ideas are just bad, but this will ruin thousands of kids' lives. Denying a kid education destroys the kid at the most fundamental level. It's sick.

well...done well, I don't have any philosophical objection to a religious based education - it CAN work, if done right.

what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so? how can we be sure that a private company can do the job better? how do we even measure 'better'? what choices will poor kids be given under this new system of education, and how will it be paid for?

I'm not objecting to all religious schools (at least not here). We all know the stereotypical Academy Of St. So-and-So, the patron saint of slapping kids with rulers. That can produce educated, responsible, philosophically astute adults. I suspect that being exposed to Catholic theology class can even act as a sort of history lesson as kids move on to the kinds of thought that replaced scholasticism.

Catholic schools force kids to think, even if the thinking is often a rebellion against the Catholic teachings. They also manage to keep the religious stuff separate from the regular subjects, so the kids don't end up woefully ignorant.


What scares me is the way these fundamentalist schools that take pride in propagating ideas that are wrong. I've seen kids who went through this kind of system before, and they were dangerously close to being lost causes. Even if they weren't, they were already behind their peers in basically everything (except for spelling).

Being that far behind when you're in high school means you can't catch up. You're denied opportunities, such as the opportuniy to go to a good college.


Yup. I'm a product of one of those fundamentalist schools, but fortunately I've recovered since leaving for public school, and then college, and then graduate school, over ten years ago.

I've never attended a Catholic school, but from what I've seen, you're right about this. Most the people I've known who went to Catholic school -many of whom are still practicing Catholics- have active intellects and are conversant with the world's various bodies of knowledge. They have no problem talking about things like evolution and gay culture and other things that one might think would be absolutely taboo to Catholics. To them, it's just another thing in the world to learn about.

Now, my old fundie friends from middle school . . . *sigh* . . . I'm pretty sure most of them still don't believe in evolution and still think the Founding Fathers were a bunch of fundies just like them. I can't imagine that any of them are very well-read, unless we're talking about C.S. Lewis and the Left Behind series. Global warming? No, God wouldn't allow that to happen. Most of them have gone on to college (of course -it was a private school), but I think I'm the only one who has gone into academia.

And it's funny that you bring up spelling, because spelling and grammar were the only English instruction we had. Sure, we read short stories that taught biblical morals and stuff, but it wasn't until I went to public school in 10th grade that I actually started studying *literature*. Again, I like to think I've caught up and recovered by now at least.

So yeah, I guess the moral of my little story here is that not all religiously-based schooling is bad, just fundie religiously-based schooling.
 
2012-06-03 12:55:15 PM

Truman Burbank: What would be nice is if certain private companies that deal with education would restrict what they do to a more local model - that would help contain the crazy as well. But they don't do that because it costs them more, so morons like the Texas State Textbook Committee end up ruining education across a big part of the country.


I feel like the emergence of online textbooks has to change that game eventually, since the Texas cults get away with leveraging the printing costs to their advantage. When you take that away, it opens up the possibility to choose textbooks on criteria other than what is cheapest.
 
2012-06-03 12:56:35 PM

Cats_Lie: 12349876: Cats_Lie: You don't have a choice if you can't afford it. Vouchers just give the same freedom to the poor that we have always given to the rich. Why are you in favor of disadvantaging children from economically underprivileged families? What are you trying to protect?

Nope. The fancy schools will just up their price high enough above the voucher to keep the riff raff out.

So you prefer a system where the poor have exactly one choice, to rely on the government?


Voucher systems also rely on the government. Or are you one of these people who wants to keep the government out of Medicare?
 
2012-06-03 12:56:38 PM

Fart_Machine: If what you say is correct then poor whites would be vastly outperforming their black counterparts and that isn't the case.


Why vastly?

Christ, I entered the thread with a snarky comment but when everyone pushes one way I feel inclined to push back another way. I believe that the black-white performance gap, whatever its magnitude (vast, not vast) is not fully explained by income gaps. I think this is well borne out by data and no one has contradicted this (the article you posted doesn't really have enough information, and that clearly wasn't the intent of the study, but rather why the rich-poor performance gap is growing, and what is causing that). Instead, people are implying that I am racist, which is rather bizarre. I'm as liberal as can be in matters of race.
 
2012-06-03 12:56:47 PM

masterone41: So which system wins the Spelling Bee every year?

its not the public one


Are spelling bee accomplishments the best measurement of overall academic performance of students?
 
2012-06-03 12:57:00 PM

Cats_Lie: verbaltoxin:

Nice lie there. It sure would work out if private schools hadn't existed for, oh, I don't know, the entire history of the United States. And if some of those private schools weren't known as the most prestigious and exclusive of all the schools in the country.

There has always been a choice. There hasn't ever been a monopoly. If you have a problem with the public school in you area, again, there are ways to take up that issue. I didn't say it was an easy one but since you seem to believe charter schools are a choice and by that criterion alone makes them better, I don't take it you have a great attention to details.


You don't have a choice if you can't afford it. Vouchers just give the same freedom to the poor that we have always given to the rich. Why are you in favor of disadvantaging children from economically underprivileged families? What are you trying to protect?


I like the Glenn Beck questions there, but a link I posted already goes over how charter schools aren't any better than the competition. Some are great, yes, but they, like private schools, are more exclusive and expensive.

So again, the best choices often go to those whom can afford it. And those who provide the resources for it to run capably, such as the case for the better public schools.

But no, just go ahead with your righteous indignation. I'm sure you'll get to the government bad, taxes bad arguments shortly.
 
2012-06-03 12:57:03 PM

masterone41: So which system wins the Spelling Bee every year?

its not the public one


Good thing we built an economy based on memorizing the dictionary!
 
2012-06-03 12:58:22 PM

masterone41: So which system wins the Spelling Bee every year?

its not the public one


They also seem to be Indian too.

Anyone else noticing that?
 
2012-06-03 12:58:40 PM

Portia: The point is in that some states charters do not have to accept a kid who has been expelled from his/her previous school, thus alleviating themselves of some of the worst troublemakers. That allows them a certain level of choice that a regular public school is not permitted to have. I don't know the case in Florida.


Basically, charters in Florida that have a particular mission statement, e.g., to assist those likely to drop out, to serve those at a certain age or grade level, to assist the developmentally disabled, etc. can target those students. Additionally, they can set reasonable academic standards, but the approving board is quite picky about what they will accept as reasonable.

I get your point though, and I even mentioned above that charters can easily kick students out for "disciplinary" problems, thus leaving the kid with no other option than to return to regular public school.
 
2012-06-03 12:58:57 PM

proteus_b: Bontesla: The educational gap also falls along socioeconomic status

This, however, is not true.


encrypted-tbn2.google.com


Bontesla: In other words, the common denominator among "under-performers" is not their blackness but their distinction as being a minority group member.

This is also not true, generically. Some minority group members perform better than the average. An obvious example is Asian-Americans.


I said: the common denominator among "under-performers" is not their blackness but their distinction as being a minority group member.

What you think I said: All minorities under-perform.
 
2012-06-03 12:59:58 PM

Cats_Lie: You don't have a choice if you can't afford it. Vouchers just give the same freedom to the poor that we have always given to the rich. Why are you in favor of disadvantaging children from economically underprivileged families? What are you trying to protect?


Funny how in right wing Fundie logic, that doesn't apply to healthcare.

/Feeding the troll.
 
2012-06-03 01:00:21 PM

BarkingUnicorn: orclover: BarkingUnicorn: Curious: i was ask the other day why should parents with kids in private schools have to pay for public schools.

Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?

Same reason they should pay for prisons, streetlights they dont use, roads they will never drive on, mental hospitals that they will never check into and many many other things. If they dont pay for them, they will be farking eaten by one of their fellow citizens who needs those services. Its called society, its not all about just you now. If you dont like it, go join the flotilla offshore and enjoy the Andrew Ryan Dream come true.


Seriously, you, get the fark out of my country.

It was a rhetorical question, which you answered very well. Seems I accidentally deleted the ID of the Farker to whom I posed the question, so it seemed as if I posed his question too.


Ah, sorry, was still starting my coffee routine so am a bit biatchy. Still biatchy. Ok I leave for a few minutes and this place turns to troll fark-fest 2012......gonna go fry some rice now.

Peace out.
 
2012-06-03 01:00:28 PM

masterone41: Portia: masterone41: So which system wins the Spelling Bee every year?

its not the public one

Are spelling bee accomplishments the best measurement of overall academic performance of students?

lets check

Open to every one

No Government involvement

I say yes


Account created: 2012-06-02 10:07:58

Oh man there is going to be a flood of these retards until November.
 
2012-06-03 01:00:48 PM

masterone41: 12349876: Cats_Lie: 12349876: Cats_Lie: You don't have a choice if you can't afford it. Vouchers just give the same freedom to the poor that we have always given to the rich. Why are you in favor of disadvantaging children from economically underprivileged families? What are you trying to protect?

Nope. The fancy schools will just up their price high enough above the voucher to keep the riff raff out.

So you prefer a system where the poor have exactly one choice, to rely on the government?

The poor are still dependent on the government for that voucher.

whats funny here is to watch the feet

given Vouchers, in DC, a LIBERAL Oasis

they run to private schools with their vouchers

ouch


It was a failure though. They were caught cheating to up their scores.
 
2012-06-03 01:00:51 PM

Fart_Machine: proteus_b: Bontesla: The educational gap also falls along socioeconomic status

This, however, is not true.

Education Gap Grows Between Rich and Poor, Studies Say


Thank you!!!! :)

I tend to run a bit behind in my replies - so thank you very much for responding before I could.
 
2012-06-03 01:01:26 PM

masterone41: Portia: masterone41: So which system wins the Spelling Bee every year?

its not the public one

Are spelling bee accomplishments the best measurement of overall academic performance of students?

lets check

Open to every one

No Government involvement

I say yes


Just... wha?
 
2012-06-03 01:02:18 PM

Halli: masterone41: Portia: masterone41: So which system wins the Spelling Bee every year?

its not the public one

Are spelling bee accomplishments the best measurement of overall academic performance of students?

lets check

Open to every one

No Government involvement

I say yes

Account created: 2012-06-02 10:07:58

Oh man there is going to be a flood of these retards until November.


Yeah, I just realized that too. Trollers gonna troll.
 
2012-06-03 01:04:06 PM

masterone41: El Freak: Cats_Lie: You don't have a choice if you can't afford it. Vouchers just give the same freedom to the poor that we have always given to the rich. Why are you in favor of disadvantaging children from economically underprivileged families? What are you trying to protect?

Funny how in right wing Fundie logic, that doesn't apply to healthcare.

/Feeding the troll.

actually it would apply to healthcare, very nicely

Total Gov out of deciding everything, give poor folks vouchers, wow, you do know the winning formula


The question is will those voucher be sufficient in covering the cost of health care.

But you don't give a shiat anyway right winterwhile?
 
2012-06-03 01:05:04 PM

Bontesla: I said: the common denominator among "under-performers" is not their blackness but their distinction as being a minority group member.


I'm not even sure that I understand what constitutes a minority in your opinion. Do you only mean ethnic or racial groups? Or do cracker trailer-trash count? They are surely an under-performing group---they are probably a minority of Americans, even though they are not typically considered an ethnic minority. Who is a member of the majority, then, that might disprove your statement? Therefore your statement is tautological and I have to get back to work.
 
2012-06-03 01:05:22 PM

Weaver95: NetOwl: These religious "schools" are child abuse.

Most stupid Republican ideas are just bad, but this will ruin thousands of kids' lives. Denying a kid education destroys the kid at the most fundamental level. It's sick.

well...done well, I don't have any philosophical objection to a religious based education - it CAN work, if done right.

what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so? how can we be sure that a private company can do the job better? how do we even measure 'better'? what choices will poor kids be given under this new system of education, and how will it be paid for?


It's not about measuring "better" and you know it. These assholes just want to indoctrinate children into their closed-minded worldview. Period. There's nothing more to it. If it was about religious freedom, they'd be OK with Islamic schools in the US. If it was about a better education, then they wouldn't be using science texts that don't even mention evolution.
 
2012-06-03 01:05:44 PM

masterone41: 12349876: Cats_Lie: 12349876: Cats_Lie: You don't have a choice if you can't afford it. Vouchers just give the same freedom to the poor that we have always given to the rich. Why are you in favor of disadvantaging children from economically underprivileged families? What are you trying to protect?

Nope. The fancy schools will just up their price high enough above the voucher to keep the riff raff out.

So you prefer a system where the poor have exactly one choice, to rely on the government?

The poor are still dependent on the government for that voucher.

whats funny here is to watch the feet

given Vouchers, in DC, a LIBERAL Oasis

they run to private schools with their vouchers

ouch


The poor spend government money on booze and lottery tickets too.
 
2012-06-03 01:05:52 PM

masterone41: Total Gov out of deciding everything, give poor folks vouchers


You realize that those vouchers come out of government coffers?

masterone41: Right.. you are standing on a stage, on film, cheating?


Why are you still talking about spelling bees when the person to whom you were responding was referring to DC charter schools' test scores?

Oh nevermind. Welcome to ignore.
 
2012-06-03 01:06:38 PM
How the hell have you guys not realized it's winterwhile yet with a 2 hour old alt?
 
2012-06-03 01:07:17 PM
BIBLE-BASED MATH BOOKS

Noah made the ark 300 cubits (450 feet) in length. It was 50 cubits (75 feet) in width, and 30 cubits (45 feet) in height. People believe that back in Bible times a cubit was a man's arm from elbow to fingertips.

He then fit approximately:

~7.77 million species of animals (of which 953,434 have been described and cataloged)
~298,000 species of plants (of which 215,644 have been described and cataloged)
~611,000 species of fungi (moulds, mushrooms) (of which 43,271 have been described and cataloged)
~36,400 species of protozoa (single-cell organisms with animal-like behavior, eg. movement, of which 8,118 have been described and cataloged)
~27,500 species of chromista (including, eg. brown algae, diatoms, water moulds, of which 13,033 have been described and cataloged)


- times 2 male/female on his boat and kept the carnivores, omnivores and herbivores separate. Not sure what he did with all the poop. I mean 40 days and 40 nights that's a lot of poop.


Also, the Bible is one based, not zero based. Zero is not used in the bible. This is because neither the Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, or Romans used zero. The chapters in the Bible start with one instead of zero. In Bible times,if a child was 3 months old and someone asked the mother how old the baby was she would say, "one."

Mathematical Miracles.
 
2012-06-03 01:09:23 PM

Commander Lysdexic: If you can stop them thinking whilst they are children, then once they are adults they will never question their rulers.


Aaaaaannnndd we have a winner!

There are some public school systems that are truly awful in every sense of the word; and while many of them are in inner cities others are in Republican suburbs and small towns where the schools seem to exist solely for sports.

I guess I can understand the rationale behind having vouchers in a district where the schools are indeed awful (and let's keep in mind folks that many districts crank out idiots becuase the parents care more about reality TV than their kid's education; the teachers can only do so much). But is it too much to ask that these schools be held to a basic set of standards?
 
2012-06-03 01:10:41 PM

masterone41: Right.. you are standing on a stage, on film, cheating?

right.. smell test... fail


Best part.... forever!
 
2012-06-03 01:11:22 PM

dababler: Are Republicans really against "set theory" in math!?


Jesus was clearly pro-(axiom of )choice. Try explaining how he fed 5,000 people with five loaves of bread and two fish without using Banach-Tarski.
 
2012-06-03 01:11:32 PM

jayhawk88: apoptotic: FTA:The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.

Cripes, they've figured out a way to get state education funding while getting rid of teachers altogether.

So, basically, college-prep courses for future LSU Tigers?


Probably not - most colleges won't accept a diploma from a high school without a library - they wouldn't consider the place accreditted.
 
2012-06-03 01:12:02 PM

masterone41: meat0918: masterone41: 12349876: Cats_Lie: 12349876: Cats_Lie: You don't have a choice if you can't afford it. Vouchers just give the same freedom to the poor that we have always given to the rich. Why are you in favor of disadvantaging children from economically underprivileged families? What are you trying to protect?

Nope. The fancy schools will just up their price high enough above the voucher to keep the riff raff out.

So you prefer a system where the poor have exactly one choice, to rely on the government?

The poor are still dependent on the government for that voucher.

whats funny here is to watch the feet

given Vouchers, in DC, a LIBERAL Oasis

they run to private schools with their vouchers

ouch

It was a failure though. They were caught cheating to up their scores.

Right.. you are standing on a stage, on film, cheating?

right.. smell test... fail


Wow, you're dense.
 
2012-06-03 01:12:06 PM

wotthefark: Also, the Bible is one based, not zero based. Zero is not used in the bible. This is because neither the Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, or Romans used zero. The chapters in the Bible start with one instead of zero.


The rest of your post aside, this is one of the dumbest things I've read in a while, and I've read all of this thread...
 
2012-06-03 01:12:15 PM

Salt Lick Steady: Portia: The point is in that some states charters do not have to accept a kid who has been expelled from his/her previous school, thus alleviating themselves of some of the worst troublemakers. That allows them a certain level of choice that a regular public school is not permitted to have. I don't know the case in Florida.

Basically, charters in Florida that have a particular mission statement, e.g., to assist those likely to drop out, to serve those at a certain age or grade level, to assist the developmentally disabled, etc. can target those students. Additionally, they can set reasonable academic standards, but the approving board is quite picky about what they will accept as reasonable.

I get your point though, and I even mentioned above that charters can easily kick students out for "disciplinary" problems, thus leaving the kid with no other option than to return to regular public school.


Ah sorry, missed where you said that. I tend to get really pissy about the whole charter vs. public debate--I've worked in both a horrible charter and a horrible public school, and it wasn't the public school that made me feel like my integrity was completely compromised by the shady things we were required to do by the managing corporation/administration. I know lots of charters aren't like the one I left, but I'm really cynical about them as a whole now.
 
2012-06-03 01:12:28 PM

proteus_b: Fart_Machine: Education Gap Grows Between Rich and Poor, Studies Say

I'm not claiming that that gap doesn't exist.


Bontesla: The educational gap also falls along socioeconomic status

Your reply: This, however, is not true.

Someone linked evidence supporting my comment. And now you're trying to explain that, "This, however, is not true" did not refer to the quoted comment.

proteus_ I'm claiming that middle-income blacks perform similarly to and worse than lower-income whites. Therefore income and wealth alone are not likely responsible for the black-white gap (I'm not talking about the rich-poor gap, nor denying its obvious existence). I'm also not really talking about the causes of this gap---merely pointing out its existence and nature.

You're doing more than that. You're also arguing that there isn't a legitimate reason for the achievement gap. You've said that you're letting them live in your country, they want to stay segregated, and that their integration is bad (because, "and so on").

When I pointed out that the achievement gap blacks experience when compared to whites is very similar to the achievement gaps experienced by many other groups holding a minority status - your response is, "But, but, but . . . I just want to talk about black people. I don't want to think about the other stuff."
 
2012-06-03 01:12:31 PM

wotthefark: Noah made the ark 300 cubits (450 feet) in length. It was 50 cubits (75 feet) in width, and 30 cubits (45 feet) in height. People believe that back in Bible times a cubit was a man's arm from elbow to fingertips.

He then fit approximately:

~7.77 million species of animals (of which 953,434 have been described and cataloged)
~298,000 species of plants (of which 215,644 have been described and cataloged)
~611,000 species of fungi (moulds, mushrooms) (of which 43,271 have been described and cataloged)
~36,400 species of protozoa (single-cell organisms with animal-like behavior, eg. movement, of which 8,118 have been described and cataloged)
~27,500 species of chromista (including, eg. brown algae, diatoms, water moulds, of which 13,033 have been described and cataloged)


You know, I asked the esteemed Kent Hovind (google him if you're not familiar with the sheister) this very question when he visited my fine public college (which calls itself a university, in contrast to academic tradition, but who's counting?) His answer partly revolves around the fact that creationists do not deny the existence of "micro-evolution", so that perhaps not ALL species would need to be present in the ark, and also around the fact that he's a snake-oil salesman who doesn't know or care how large the ark is. He's a master of changing the subject. He had slides proving that the pope is a nazi (and this was in 2002!)

Koreans still count ages that way apparently. Actually I understand that they add another year on New Years. Thus you could be "two" on January 1 despite having been born just a day earlier.
 
2012-06-03 01:15:17 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Oh, another thing: even among financially poor students there are those who are bright and will be cherry-picked, leaving the public schools with the toughest cases and less money.


The Milwaukee voucher system is really set up to do that they have to take all students. And the public schools still have the same money per student, what's the problem?
 
2012-06-03 01:16:13 PM

proteus_b: Sabyen91: This, however, is not true.

Sorry, I believed that he meant "the black-white gap is explained solely by socio-economic status". Obviously the "rich poor gap" does fall along socio-economic status, with rich kids performing better than poor ones.


*She
 
2012-06-03 01:16:37 PM

dababler: Wyalt Derp: dababler: Are Republicans really against "set theory" in math!?

Anything that's "just a theory" doesn't belong in the Republican classroom, only facts, from the Bible (or other documents by the same author, eg the Constitution).

But, set theory is totally not really a "theory". WTF I'm tired of people who are not scholars in a subject deciding what's best taught in said subject.


I think it's fallout from the "New Math" fad of 40 years ago. Never mind that it was largely abandoned 35 years ago (please correct me if I'm mistaken about that, somebody), the fact that once upon a time there was a math curriculum that started with set theory means they must never. mention. set. theory. again.

Demonizing Set Theory hews closely to the right-wing narrative about unionized teachers and liberal bureaucrats experimentin' with our kids. See the phonics debate for more of that.
 
2012-06-03 01:18:21 PM

John Dewey: I wonder what most people who say "teaching to the test" mean. I wonder if they envision teachers spoon feeding answers and/or material. I don't see that going on in schools so much as I see teachers keeping learning at a very low cognitive level. This creates a very boring and dry atmosphere that actually demeans the abilities of students and sets up a vicious cycle of low expectations and failure.


It usually mean focusing the lesson plans on narrow subject matter that will help them perform better on the test and hammering into students with repetition.
 
2012-06-03 01:19:15 PM

Bontesla: Your reply: This, however, is not true.


I already stated that I misinterpreted your comment.

Fine, forget the black people! How to get poor people to achieve better is a fine goal.

Bontesla: You've said that you're letting them live in your country, they want to stay segregated, and that their integration is bad (because, "and so on").

What "my" country? It's our country and I am not some redneck gettin' all agitatered that blacks are going to school with mah daughtas, I'm merely pointing out that one unfortunate consequence of black assimilation into society has had negative repercussions on the less assimilated portions. Did I ever say that I'm against that assimilation? Perhaps I believe that assimilation for its own sake outweighs those repercussions. Perhaps I believe that there are other positive consequences of that assimilation which outweighs those repercussions.

And yeah, maybe it's unimportant, but many other minority groups seem to be doing better than blacks. Yes I know that they don't have all of the same baggage.
 
2012-06-03 01:19:30 PM
Private schools will best prepare young Louisianan's for their lives in private prisons.
 
2012-06-03 01:20:47 PM

Bontesla: *She


Well that explains it. You are hysterical (which is why you believe that I believe that blacks have magic powers). I sentence you to live in the Victorian era.
 
2012-06-03 01:20:47 PM

DrewCurtisJr: John Dewey: I wonder what most people who say "teaching to the test" mean. I wonder if they envision teachers spoon feeding answers and/or material. I don't see that going on in schools so much as I see teachers keeping learning at a very low cognitive level. This creates a very boring and dry atmosphere that actually demeans the abilities of students and sets up a vicious cycle of low expectations and failure.

It usually mean focusing the lesson plans on narrow subject matter that will help them perform better on the test and hammering into students with repetition.


I remember when I was in high school having to take those state tests and the week or two ahead of time we spent preparing for them.

This whole concept is a waste of time IMHO.
 
2012-06-03 01:22:55 PM

DubyaHater: fark it. I don't even care anymore. Less competition for my job in the future.


This. Continue producing retards, retards.
 
2012-06-03 01:23:00 PM

Mrtraveler01: I remember when I was in high school having to take those state tests and the week or two ahead of time we spent preparing for them.


My brother teaches in an all black charter school and they spend the entire year studying for them. It's the only curriculum they have. It's depressing---the students who try learn are constantly interrupted and distracted by those who are more problematic.
 
2012-06-03 01:24:05 PM
masterone41
Account created: 2012-06-02


Getting desperate, assholes?
 
2012-06-03 01:24:17 PM

AcneVulgaris: Private schools will best prepare young Louisianan's for their lives in private prisons.


Ok, children, listen up! Today we'll be studying how to hold your pants up while carrying your food tray.

Later, in PE, we'll be teaching you how the art of switching from hands-on-the-wall to back-against-the-wall.
 
2012-06-03 01:25:08 PM

James F. Campbell: masterone41
Account created: 2012-06-02

Getting desperate, assholes?


It's winterwhile pissing away his (I think 7th?) alt within the last month.

He's desperate in more ways than one.
 
2012-06-03 01:26:29 PM

Mrtraveler01: He's desperate in more ways than one!


FTFY
 
2012-06-03 01:26:31 PM
Let the parents choose where their children are educated? Are you crazy? What a disaster!
 
2012-06-03 01:27:08 PM
I can't say as i like this much, Education should be entirely void of religion and the fact religious based school are allowed in this doesn't sit well with me at all.

Not saying a religion based school cannot properly educate a child but i feel it best that religion be left out of it. Save religion for the holy day(s) dedicated to the one of your choosing.
 
2012-06-03 01:27:21 PM

anarchy_x: Let the parents choose where their children are educated? Are you crazy? What a disaster!


You know, they can do that already.
 
2012-06-03 01:29:20 PM
I can't believe this is the same state that so rabidly supported a firebrand populist libtard like Huey Long, and later folks like Edwin Edwards. Both of these men were/are severely flawed, but I'd take their brand of sleaze over Louisiana's (and national) trend of the poor voting Republican. Because this is the sort of privatized corruption and fundie assbaggery we'll continue to see as long as folks are voting for a flag pin instead of a sane idea.

As for my state, I apologize to America. At least we have New Orleans, which will always be one of quirkiest, most unique, and wildly social liberal cities in the country. Please consider us when making plans to nuke the state from orbit.
 
2012-06-03 01:29:54 PM

grimlock1972: I can't say as i like this much, Education should be entirely void of religion and the fact religious based school are allowed in this doesn't sit well with me at all.

Not saying a religion based school cannot properly educate a child but i feel it best that religion be left out of it. Save religion for the holy day(s) dedicated to the one of your choosing.


You must've missed this beauty:

The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.

And this:

At Eternity Christian Academy in Westlake, pastor-turned-principal Marie Carrier hopes to secure extra space to enroll 135 voucher students, though she now has room for just a few dozen. Her first- through eighth-grade students sit in cubicles for much of the day and move at their own pace through Christian workbooks, such as a beginning science text that explains "what God made" on each of the six days of creation. They are not exposed to the theory of evolution.
"We try to stay away from all those things that might confuse our children," Carrier said.
Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.


The fact that these kind of schools can get funding from the State of Louisiana pisses me off to no end.
 
2012-06-03 01:30:46 PM

Mrtraveler01: James F. Campbell: masterone41
Account created: 2012-06-02

Getting desperate, assholes?

It's winterwhile pissing away his (I think 7th?) alt within the last month.

He's desperate in more ways than one.


You'd think that retard would at least learn to type coherent sentences, and use punctuation. Then each account might last longer than 3-4 days.
 
2012-06-03 01:32:13 PM

dickfreckle: At least we have New Orleans, which will always be one of quirkiest, most unique, and wildly social liberal cities in the country.


I love New Orleans too but it seems like once you cross from Orleans Parrish to Jefferson Parrish, the derp turns up just a little and keeps going up the further you get from NOLA.

That or just go across the lake to St. Tammany Parish which seems like derp with money.
 
2012-06-03 01:32:17 PM

anarchy_x: Let the parents choose where their children are educated?


You know, there's a difference between education and sectarian indoctrination.

/and what MrTravelor01 said
 
2012-06-03 01:33:50 PM

Mentat: The Republican War on Education living a curious, interesting, pleasurable and un-ashamed life continues.

 
2012-06-03 01:36:39 PM

Salt Lick Steady: You know, there's a difference between education and sectarian indoctrination.


I dunno, I don't think the indoctrination always works. I went to a Jesuit school, and the message was more or less socialistic, and most of those guys probably grew up to be greedy jerks. Of course, they might have grown up to be even greedier jerks if not for the education---I don't know, not having a control group.

/ I don't believe that evolution or creationism were ever discussed
// While I think it's most likely that evolution by natural selection explains the diversity of species, I would rather a school teach my kids HOW to think in such a way that they arrive to that conclusion themselves, rather than to merely tell them "evolution is fact", but not teach them HOW to think.
/// Have no objection to teaching evolution as fact.
 
2012-06-03 01:36:58 PM
I hated Sunday School because I was the dumbest kid there. I didn't know jack about the bible compared to all the Flanders that were in there. This is opposed to regular school where I was only the fourth or fifth dumbest kid there.
 
2012-06-03 01:39:11 PM
Let's see.............send tax money to private industry............sounds like Socialism to me. snicker.


Thomas Jefferson would be so proud of US!

and God will be so pleased too.


I won't think in your church
if you won't pray in my school.
 
2012-06-03 01:39:47 PM

Mr. Coffee Nerves: How else are we going to maintain profitability at our private prisons if we don't have a steady stream of raw materials?



Prison stocks are going up up up!
 
2012-06-03 01:40:59 PM

NewportBarGuy: Vouchers... This f*cking retarded idea has been around for 30 years. Still hasn't stopped being f*cking retarded.



but private industry needs your tax dollars!! they have stockholders to feed, ya' know.
 
2012-06-03 01:41:21 PM
Privatization, whether of the educational system, the prison system or the TSA is all about one thing: money. It's about getting more taxpayer money into the 'right' hands and out of the 'wrong' hands. It's not about efficiency or deficits or savings or lower taxes or better results. It's about profit for the few paid for by the taxes of the many.
 
2012-06-03 01:41:53 PM

phaseolus: I think it's fallout from the "New Math" fad of 40 years ago.


Why do old people get so exercised about "New Math"? From what I can glean it was basically word problems and I managed to master the concept without too much problem in the late 70s.

I forget... old people get exercised about anything that wasn't current within five years of their fifteenth birthday.
 
2012-06-03 01:42:01 PM

Mentat: The Republican War on Education continues.

Children should be confused when they learn. It means they're thinking. You should be aiming for that "ah-ha!" moment when they are no longer confused, not trying to hide them from it.




once you get God in school, then kids don't need to know anything else. God will be there to pay their bills when they become adults.
 
2012-06-03 01:42:55 PM

Wyalt Derp: "Calculate x. Show your work."

"x = 3. God did it."



Religion is the opiate of the uneducated masses (i.e. Republicans)
 
2012-06-03 01:44:33 PM

Linux_Yes: Religion is the opiate of the uneducated masses (i.e. Republicans)


I wonder if Republicans are more religious than Democrats (or non-voters, or third-party voters)
 
2012-06-03 01:45:17 PM

realmolo: This is why I'm convinced that public education needs to be handled *entirely* by the feds.

The individual states and municipalities can't be trusted. It's too easy for Bible-thumping idiots to take over local and state school boards, and ruin an entire generation of children. Never mind that local school administrators are some of the most incompetent bureaucrats in government.

At the national level, that kind of craziness doesn't fly At least, not yet.


I, too, have noticed that the smaller government gets, the stupider and crazier it gets. Witness, HOAs.
 
2012-06-03 01:45:55 PM

bulldg4life: beta_plus: Awww, subby and Fark Libs are all butt hurt because those kids are going to learn how to read and they can't.

It's Sunday morning. Seriously. You're trolling an internet message board on, I'm assuming, a sunny Sunday morning.

Whether you get paid to do it or not, don't you ever sit back and wonder what went wrong in your life?


He has Jeebus on his side; he can do no wrong as long as it's in his name; discriminate, molest, torture, pilfer....the list is nearly endless!
 
2012-06-03 01:46:57 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: The Name: BarkingUnicorn: Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?

I have no problem with childless people not paying for public schools.

As long as they're willing to give up all the benefits of publicly-funded medical care and scientific research, the FDA, the EPA, infrastructure, police, firefighters, pretty much every government service that requires a bunch of people with at least high school diplomas to provide -which is everything.

THIS. I'm getting tired of this "I don't have to pay for something if I don't notice a benefit for it" attitude. A side-effect of the right's war on education is the tunnel-vision caused by linear thinking. Somehow we've thrown the core principle of civilization out the window and replaced it with a mantra that says you are entitled to all the benefits of living in a society and all the freedom-of-choice of living outside of a society.


Memo to self: add "(rhetorical)" to all rhetorical questions henceforth.
 
2012-06-03 01:47:32 PM
Privatize everything already. You want a Randian survival of the fittest so damn badly, then just do it.

Just keep a lookout for psychopaths and other lovers of liberty
Link
 
2012-06-03 01:50:31 PM

Mrtraveler01: Don't Troll Me Bro!: We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

It's already a low standard. The only reason it's not the butt of national jokes is because Mississippi is next door.

Can't imagine how much worse schools can get in Louisiana than they already are now. (Unless you live in the suburbs of New Orleans).


This is how they get worse:

FTFA: The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.
 
2012-06-03 01:50:58 PM

Rann Xerox: The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.

Chemistry done in biblical verses??? WTF??? They must have f*cked up the symbols of the Periodic Table.

"Tommy? What is the Periodic Table symbol for oxygen?"
"John 3:16, teacher."
"Very good, Tommy."


Idiocracy in action. They can play Basketball, but cant even count to potato.
 
2012-06-03 01:52:07 PM

proteus_b: Fart_Machine: According to the studies in the article, the gap between black and white students has significantly narrowed. Between differences in income is where the real gap is.

Yes, you are right, both of those are true. However perhaps what has happened is that the educational gap per wealth gap has grown, while the percentage of blacks who are poor has shrunk. Thus, it is possible (as has been reported in other studies) that there is a black-white gap which exists even after controlling for income/wealth. E.g. that lower-class whites may outperform middle-class blacks in standardized tests.


Link is a PDF
A study exploring the role of socioeconomic status and educational achievement. The study also notes the negative impacts of socioeconomic status and linguistic development (which later turns into educational achievement). The study also factors SES and race (comparing wealthier African Americans to poorer African Americans).

Here's the issue at hand. SES is a terribly rough metric for gauging achievement gaps. But, there are important trends to take note of. For example - there is a statistical significance between SES and achievement. This holds true even in the black community. But, there are some significant exceptions.

It seems like the factors that help determine family SES are more likely responsible for the achievement gap among blacks. Link is a PDF

So, for example, mother's education level seems to be a great predictor of reading comprehension and language comprehension. It is also a great predictor for SES when looking at extreme low-income/poverty and high-income (but has very little prediction value for MSES).
 
2012-06-03 01:54:23 PM

Bucky Katt: Mrtraveler01: Don't Troll Me Bro!: We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

It's already a low standard. The only reason it's not the butt of national jokes is because Mississippi is next door.

Can't imagine how much worse schools can get in Louisiana than they already are now. (Unless you live in the suburbs of New Orleans).

This is how they get worse:

FTFA: The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.


Ruston is in Northern Louisiana. That's not Real Louisiana.

That's the part of Louisiana that's the result of a messy gangbang between Texas, Arkansas, and Mississippi.
 
2012-06-03 01:54:50 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Memo to self: add "(rhetorical)" to all rhetorical questions henceforth.


On the brightside for me, I was getting a chuckle out of each person who failed to realize that your question was obviously rhetorical, and the vehemence of their responses.
 
2012-06-03 01:58:23 PM
Destroying education in the state is one way to be sure they get a bumper crop of future republicans.
 
2012-06-03 02:01:17 PM

proteus_b: Linux_Yes: Religion is the opiate of the uneducated masses (i.e. Republicans)

I wonder if Republicans are more religious than Democrats (or non-voters, or third-party voters)



if they *aren't* more religious they do a great job of pretending they are. {insert obvious tag here}

its common knowledge that the Republican party stresses Religion more than Dems do. or at least they use the tool of Religion more often to move their agenda forward.
 
2012-06-03 02:01:19 PM
Bucky Katt:

The private prison school willing to accept the most inmates voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Inmates Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones cells classrooms. Each lesson consists of a cellmate an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemicastry chemistry or compositionalship composition.

Book it
 
2012-06-03 02:03:38 PM

proteus_b: Bontesla: Again . . . have you told the magical black folk that live within your universe that you are okay with them using your things? Because . . . I think that would go really far . . .

Magical black folk? The next door neighbors on both sides of my house where I grew up are black. And except for the color of their skin, have rather little in common with poor blacks in the ghetto. My point is that blacks who are successful move out of the ghettoes and the positive role models they might have been do not exist. Well perhaps they serve as positive role models to suburban whites that blacks are not all just a bunch of gang-bangers with speed, but are actually equally capable of being successful in all walks of life. Which is good. But removing the positive role models from the black communities is probably not good for those communities.

You sound kind of hysterical. I just saw this movie about the subject.


Hysterical? You clearly do not know me. I have two moods: slightly amused and amused.

The fact is you're a racist. I'm not talking about the literal definition in which one sees a distinction among races. I'm talking about your continual suggestion that perhaps the reason for black under-performance has something to do with their blackness and your insistence on disregarding other explanations.

There's absolutely no need for me to become hysterical when chatting with a racist over the internet. Racism isn't an educational decision. Racism isn't a reasonable decision. Someone on Fark said something along the lines of, "You can't reason someone out of a thought they never reasoned themselves into."

So, in my replies to you, I don't intend on convincing you of anything. I have no interest in becoming excited over this discussion. Ultimately, you're going to leave this discussion pretty much thinking exactly what you were thinking when you entered into it.

My replies to you are to show everyone else how thin your arguments are. I worry that, if left unchallenged, some ignorant lad is going to think that the absence of a rebuttal is support of the argument.
 
2012-06-03 02:07:25 PM

proteus_b: Fart_Machine: If what you say is correct then poor whites would be vastly outperforming their black counterparts and that isn't the case.

Why vastly?

Christ, I entered the thread with a snarky comment but when everyone pushes one way I feel inclined to push back another way. I believe that the black-white performance gap, whatever its magnitude (vast, not vast) is not fully explained by income gaps. I think this is well borne out by data and no one has contradicted this (the article you posted doesn't really have enough information, and that clearly wasn't the intent of the study, but rather why the rich-poor performance gap is growing, and what is causing that). Instead, people are implying that I am racist, which is rather bizarre. I'm as liberal as can be in matters of race.


When you argue that black integration has been bad for other people - what is one to think?
 
2012-06-03 02:09:06 PM

Salt Lick Steady: Most states allow charters to reject students based on former disciplinary issues, and that's precisely what charters tend to use as a reason to kick students out. So yeah, often the only option is to return to a regular public school.


FTA: "Valeria Thompson runs the Louisiana New School Academy in Baton Rouge, which prides itself on getting troubled students through middle and high school. Families have struggled to pay tuition, she said, and enrollment is down to about 60 kids."
 
2012-06-03 02:12:03 PM
bontesla

thanks for the links. but my very basic understanding of the articles is that they conclude that while SES (socio-economic status---by the way what kind of journal allows you to use an acronym without defining it???) is correlated with achievement, that it's believed that other factors actually cause the SES gap and achievement gap, therefore creating a false illusion that SES is causing the achievement gap. perhaps i am misinterpreting the findings. i believe that both can be factors. as the reference of fartmachine indicated, wealthy families may be spending up to nine times (or more) on educational materials. obviously a kid who takes an SAT prep course will have an advantage over one who doesn't. however, i contend that other factors are at play---my youngest sister taught herself to read at age three---this cannot be attributed to better schooling, but the presence of reading materials and a nurturing environment were most likely beneficial (of course this is an anecdote which proves nothing, but i'm just saying....)

/course now the younger sister is a radical man-hating feminist who majored in womens' studies
 
2012-06-03 02:13:51 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Salt Lick Steady: Most states allow charters to reject students based on former disciplinary issues, and that's precisely what charters tend to use as a reason to kick students out. So yeah, often the only option is to return to a regular public school.

FTA: "Valeria Thompson runs the Louisiana New School Academy in Baton Rouge, which prides itself on getting troubled students through middle and high school. Families have struggled to pay tuition, she said, and enrollment is down to about 60 kids."


What part of "most" don't you understand?

Moreover, a small segment of charter schools draft their mission statements - and their charters - in terms of assisting troubled youth, or youth that is likely to drop out of high school. Of course these particular schools aren't using disciplinary reasons to cursorily drop kids; it's their very mission to help them.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, huh?
 
2012-06-03 02:14:23 PM

proteus_b: Bontesla: I said: the common denominator among "under-performers" is not their blackness but their distinction as being a minority group member.

I'm not even sure that I understand what constitutes a minority in your opinion. Do you only mean ethnic or racial groups? Or do cracker trailer-trash count? They are surely an under-performing group---they are probably a minority of Americans, even though they are not typically considered an ethnic minority. Who is a member of the majority, then, that might disprove your statement? Therefore your statement is tautological and I have to get back to work.


When I say, "minority group status" or "member of a minority group", I'm not giving you opinions. I am not opining that x belongs to minority group y. There's an actual definition and everything . . .

Minority Group:
A group that is either numerically small, lacks power or has restricted access to social, economic, and political and educational structures due to such characteristics as ethnicity, language, race, sex (gender), sexual orientation, disability, religion. The term implies inferior social standing. (NSHRC, Participant's Handbook, Diversity Training - Train the Trainer, July 2004)

Your ignorance of a definition does not suddenly make my argument a tautology.
 
2012-06-03 02:15:11 PM

proteus_b: /course now the younger sister is a radical man-hating feminist who majored in womens' studies


truly, trolling at it's finest
 
2012-06-03 02:16:27 PM

Linux_Yes: if they *aren't* more religious they do a great job of pretending they are. {insert obvious tag here}

its common knowledge that the Republican party stresses Religion more than Dems do. or at least they use the tool of Religion more often to move their agenda forward.


i meant the populace, not the politicians. yes, the religious right is annoying.

Bontesla: When you argue that black integration has been bad for other people - what is one to think?


do you disagree with what i said though?

Bontesla: black under-performance has something to do with their blackness


according to the papers you post, the achievement gap likely does have something to do with the environments in which they are growing up. which is exactly what i've been [apparently unsuccessfully] arguing all along.

/klan meeting in 26 minutes, thanks for chatting
 
2012-06-03 02:17:01 PM
in principle, this sucks.

but having attended the louisiana public school system, im finding it hard to raise my voice in its defense.
 
2012-06-03 02:17:02 PM

proteus_b: wotthefark: Noah made the ark 300 cubits (450 feet) in length. It was 50 cubits (75 feet) in width, and 30 cubits (45 feet) in height. People believe that back in Bible times a cubit was a man's arm from elbow to fingertips.

He then fit approximately:

~7.77 million species of animals (of which 953,434 have been described and cataloged)
~298,000 species of plants (of which 215,644 have been described and cataloged)
~611,000 species of fungi (moulds, mushrooms) (of which 43,271 have been described and cataloged)
~36,400 species of protozoa (single-cell organisms with animal-like behavior, eg. movement, of which 8,118 have been described and cataloged)
~27,500 species of chromista (including, eg. brown algae, diatoms, water moulds, of which 13,033 have been described and cataloged)

You know, I asked the esteemed Kent Hovind (google him if you're not familiar with the sheister) this very question when he visited my fine public college (which calls itself a university, in contrast to academic tradition, but who's counting?) His answer partly revolves around the fact that creationists do not deny the existence of "micro-evolution", so that perhaps not ALL species would need to be present in the ark, and also around the fact that he's a snake-oil salesman who doesn't know or care how large the ark is. He's a master of changing the subject. He had slides proving that the pope is a nazi (and this was in 2002!)

Koreans still count ages that way apparently. Actually I understand that they add another year on New Years. Thus you could be "two" on January 1 despite having been born just a day earlier.


*lol* I can't believe you spoke with Kent Hovind . . . and that you asked him that. Your favorability rating has greatly improved (I know you don't care whether or not I find you favorable). Just sharing.
 
2012-06-03 02:19:25 PM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?



Judas stole 40 loaves of leavened bread. That's as much as four tens!
 
2012-06-03 02:20:14 PM

Bontesla: (NSHRC, Participant's Handbook, Diversity Training - Train the Trainer, July 2004)


pardon my ignorance of "the diversity handbook", our klatch spilt koffee on ours before i was able to get a look at it.

merriam-webster lists "a part of a population differing from others in some characteristics and often subjected to differential treatment". are jews a minority? how about snake-handling hillbillies?
 
2012-06-03 02:23:21 PM

proteus_b: Fart_Machine: If what you say is correct then poor whites would be vastly outperforming their black counterparts and that isn't the case.

Why vastly?

Christ, I entered the thread with a snarky comment but when everyone pushes one way I feel inclined to push back another way. I believe that the black-white performance gap, whatever its magnitude (vast, not vast) is not fully explained by income gaps. I think this is well borne out by data and no one has contradicted this (the article you posted doesn't really have enough information, and that clearly wasn't the intent of the study, but rather why the rich-poor performance gap is growing, and what is causing that). Instead, people are implying that I am racist, which is rather bizarre. I'm as liberal as can be in matters of race.


Perhaps because your initial comment implies that because black kids are integrated into schools it lowers the average overall?

So do you have any data to show that this is the case?
 
2012-06-03 02:26:03 PM

NewportBarGuy: Vouchers... This f*cking retarded idea has been around for 30 years. Still hasn't stopped being f*cking retarded.


Actually, this would be a great idea if private schools were held to the same standards as public. The problem here stems from the fact that they aren't. How the unholy hell a school with no library where students learn via DVD passed any semblance of qualification is completely beyond me, and should be corrected quickly and harshly.
 
2012-06-03 02:27:14 PM
I've skimmed through some of the 6th grade ABECA school "books". They are beyond appalling.

It's literally as if the kids are listening to a sermon from Pat Robertson on history and science. At first I thought it was some kind of joke or spoof. It's not.

It's the extreme right wing's "final solution" to have this generation become the followers and participants in the emerging Dark Ages
 
2012-06-03 02:28:28 PM

Fart_Machine: Perhaps because your initial comment implies that because black kids are integrated into schools it lowers the average overall?

So do you have any data to show that this is the case?


No, and I'm also rather skeptical of "data" showing anything in general. As Twain said, there are "lies, damned lies and statistics".
And I don't necessarily claim that the average overall is lowered. However I do think that the flight of successful people, whether white or black (but possibly especially black) from black ghettoes does have negative effects on those blacks who remain. Likely the same effect is true for whites who outgrow the trailer park but whites may be more mobile than blacks in any event, for any number of reasons (and surely housing discrimination is one historical reason for the limited mobility of blacks).
 
2012-06-03 02:31:19 PM

proteus_b: clambam: I know I was meaning to put you on Ignore and this kind of post reminds me of why. Bing! Adios, asshole.

I guess it's too late, but just so everyone else knows, Ignore lists are the tool that libs use to keep God out of their brains.


If you are serious, then you are also a misguided dildo.

How can anyone say that and not be a retard?
 
2012-06-03 02:31:55 PM

Salt Lick Steady: Moreover, a small segment of charter schools draft their mission statements - and their charters - in terms of assisting troubled youth, or youth that is likely to drop out of high school. Of course these particular schools aren't using disciplinary reasons to cursorily drop kids; it's their very mission to help them.


You had issue with me pointing out that all kids who are kicked out of charter or private schools aren't necessarily all being dumped into public schools. Others have commented that they feel charter and school choice program success is dues in large part to selection bias. I was pointing out, with evidence from the article, that there are charter schools that deal with troublesome students, and some of whom are dumped from public schools.

Salt Lick Steady: Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, huh?


Having a discussion without getting your little feelings hurt isn't your suit, huh?
 
2012-06-03 02:32:37 PM

elffster: If you are serious, then you are also a misguided dildo.


You must not remember bevets
 
2012-06-03 02:37:55 PM
i1.ytimg.com
 
2012-06-03 02:39:59 PM

DrewCurtisJr: You had issue with me pointing out that all kids who are kicked out of charter or private schools aren't necessarily all being dumped into public schools.


No, I said that charter schools often do kick students out because of behavioral/disciplinary issues. Then you rejoined with a singular example of one that doesn't. I also mentioned how certain charters specialize in such students.

Again, that pesky reading comprehension thing creeps up on you, huh?

DrewCurtisJr: Having a discussion without getting your little feelings hurt isn't your suit, huh?


My feelings hurt? I don't even know how to classify that logical fallacy, frankly. Non sequitur mostly.
 
2012-06-03 02:40:07 PM

proteus_b: Linux_Yes: Religion is the opiate of the uneducated masses (i.e. Republicans)

I wonder if Republicans are more religious than Democrats (or non-voters, or third-party voters)


2007 survey of about 1000 adults:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/how-does-the-faith-of-republicans-d e mocrats-measure-up-26175/


"According to survey results, 57 percent of Republicans assert that the Bible is accurate in all of the principles it teaches compared to 40 percent of Democrats. Republicans are also twice as likely to believe Satan is a real spiritual entity (33 percent versus 17 percent); more likely to reject the idea that good works can earn salvation (35 percent versus 23 percent); more commonly describe themselves as absolutely committed to Christianity (61 percent versus 48 percent); more likely to deem their religious faith to be important in their life (77 percent versus 67 percent); and more likely to believe that God is the all-knowing, perfect Creator and Ruler of the universe (75 percent to 65 percent)."
 
2012-06-03 02:40:09 PM

proteus_b: No, and I'm also rather skeptical of "data" showing anything in general.


So you just know in your gut that black people are the problem with our education system?

You made claims about performance on standardizes tests (without backing them up of course). How can you even attempt to make such claims if you don't accept that data can be used as evidence? How can you make any claims at all if you cannot back them up with some meaningful data that supports the claims?

This goes beyond just a weak attempt to dodge a request for you to back up your assertions. You've clearly indicated that your entire method of reasoning is to just pull things out of your ass that sound good to you and not attempt in any way to establish the validity of those claims. With your own words you have declared your own words utterly worthless.
 
2012-06-03 02:42:07 PM

Mrtraveler01: winterwh


When did the winterwhile get the boot exactly? Before the mass alts started popping up that is.
 
2012-06-03 02:44:21 PM

Bill Murray said I was weird: Mrtraveler01: winterwh

When did the winterwhile get the boot exactly? Before the mass alts started popping up that is.


I don't know if it's a matter of if he got banned moreso than enough people ignored him to the point that he had to create a new account to quench his unquenchable thirst for attention.

The guy needs help.
 
2012-06-03 02:45:25 PM

BarkingUnicorn: "According to survey results, 57 percent of Republicans assert that the Bible is accurate in all of the principles it teaches compared to 40 percent of Democrats. Republicans are also twice as likely to believe Satan is a real spiritual entity (33 percent versus 17 percent); more likely to reject the idea that good works can earn salvation (35 percent versus 23 percent); more commonly describe themselves as absolutely committed to Christianity (61 percent versus 48 percent); more likely to deem their religious faith to be important in their life (77 percent versus 67 percent); and more likely to believe that God is the all-knowing, perfect Creator and Ruler of the universe (75 percent to 65 percent)."


So 65% or more of Democrats are insane, as opposed to 75% or more of Republicans. Still not a very reassuring sign. How about non-voters? Maybe that's the problem. Both of the parties represent religious nuts (one slightly more so) and non-theists are less represented.
 
2012-06-03 02:46:05 PM
I live in LA. I have two children in primary education. Additionally two friend's wives are primary school teachers and have been for close to 20 years. I've been hearing about this from them for a few months now. There have been some very shady things going on with this legislation. Please note that most of this information is coming from the friends and their wives.

First off there's the standard political money laundering going on with a family member's charity. It has large donations from companies and interestes that are regulated heavily by the LA government. Then several of the state senators who have come out against the vouchers have had their committee status revoked. There has also been some intimidation of teachers from protesting against the changes. This has been shown in filtering of school email access to teachers, harsh punishments for teachers taking off on planned protest dates and new evaluations of teachers being suddenly implemented.

I am really beginning to think that I need to get my and my family's asses out of the south.
 
2012-06-03 02:47:02 PM

proteus_b: Bontesla: Your reply: This, however, is not true.


proteus_I I already stated that I misinterpreted your comment.

Sorry, I tend to run a few pages behind.

proteus_I Fine, forget the black people! How to get poor people to achieve better is a fine goal.

Why would you think this is my argument? Let's not be silly... it is important to understand why achievement gaps exist. However, the appearance of the racial achievement gap is explained by other factors (that also contribute to SES but are not SES). By focusing on the achievement gap of blacks while ignoring the information gleaned from other existing achievement gaps is silly.

For example - we know that there is a large disparity between LSES students and HSES students but there is not a significant difference between LSES students and MSES students. This relationship is displayed boldly when it comes to black achievement. It's also obvious in Native American achievement. It's less obvious in white achievement (although some studies show that it's there and to a lesser extent).

So, it's disingenuous to completely discount the role of SES. The question is - why is the HSES student outperforming the MSES student? Why is there little difference between the LSES student and the MSES student? Why is this a pattern more obvious in black communities and Native American communities?

There's an interesting explanation proposed by a few social scientists. Basically, the explanation is that ISES and MSES are functionally similarly statuses whereas HSES is more different than similar.

Both ISES and MSES experience something known as "gas poor" (unable to afford their utilities), parents tend to have low-paying or blue collar jobs, and so on. In fact, we're discovering that many people in the MSES are functionally and financially poor despite their status. After taxes, health insurance, social security, bills, child care, and so on - there's very little money left. We're seeing a great deal of this poverty occurring in other countries, too.

Thus, the same problems facing ISES students are many of the same problems facing MSES students (overworked/absent parents, inadequate access to educational resources, and so on).

However, these problems are not being experienced by HSES students. Parents can afford tutors, education is a priority in the house, parents are educated, and so on.


proteus_I What "my" country? It's our country and I am not some redneck gettin' all agitatered that blacks are going to school with mah daughtas, I'm merely pointing out that one unfortunate consequence of black assimilation into society has had negative repercussions on the less assimilated portions.

I was being hyperbolic to illustrate the odd conflict of your responses.

proteus_I Did I ever say that I'm against that assimilation? Perhaps I believe that assimilation for its own sake outweighs those repercussions. Perhaps I believe that there are other positive consequences of that assimilation which outweighs those repercussions.

Assimilation doesn't work - but it's a notorious standard the dominant group places upon the minority group. It's a great way of saying, "If they would stop being so different and be more like us, we'd get along better."

Studies have shown this to be false. We've had minority groups that fully assimilate (for example - a second generation immigrant). They adopt the dominant group's speech, hobbies, foods, culture, and so on . . . yet they still are accused of not trying hard enough. In fact, second generation immigrants are more likely to completely abandon their family's cultural practices in order to better assimilate. It does not make any difference.

proteus_I And yeah, maybe it's unimportant, but many other minority groups seem to be doing better than blacks. Yes I know that they don't have all of the same baggage.

Again - you've been missing the point. You seem to be pressing the question, "What is it about blacks that make them perform worse than their counterparts?"

That's the wrong question to ask. Inherent in that question is the assumption that this inadequate performance is related to their blackness. It's something within them and not something within society. The fact is - this phenomena isn't limited to blacks. It's also limited to many other minority groups. And when we look at all of the data - it seems to be less racial and more societal.
 
2012-06-03 02:47:15 PM

DrewCurtisJr: You had issue with me pointing out that all kids who are kicked out of charter or private schools aren't necessarily all being dumped into public schools.


Oh, and you didn't point out that it's not the case that all kids who are kicked out of a charter must go back to public school. You made a rather flippant statement that those who are kicked out could find another charter.
 
2012-06-03 02:48:10 PM

Sangi: First off there's the standard political money laundering going on with a family member's charity. It has large donations from companies and interestes that are regulated heavily by the LA government. Then several of the state senators who have come out against the vouchers have had their committee status revoked. There has also been some intimidation of teachers from protesting against the changes. This has been shown in filtering of school email access to teachers, harsh punishments for teachers taking off on planned protest dates and new evaluations of teachers being suddenly implemented.


So in other words it's another day in Louisiana.
 
2012-06-03 02:48:17 PM
Can't see how parental choice and more educational options is a bad thing.

Private schooling would be less political too - if you don't like the curriculum, simply change schools.
 
2012-06-03 02:48:58 PM

proteus_b: Both of the parties represent religious nuts (one slightly more so)


In terms of proposed legislation? Not so much.
 
2012-06-03 02:49:07 PM

proteus_b: Bontesla: *She

Well that explains it. You are hysterical (which is why you believe that I believe that blacks have magic powers). I sentence you to live in the Victorian era.


Ha. I would simply sleep my way to the top. Living on the fringe of society but sleeping with the most important men will allow me to continue my education and influence major decisions without having to concern myself with proper behavior.

That'll show you.
 
2012-06-03 02:52:03 PM

Salt Lick Steady: masterone41: Portia: masterone41: So which system wins the Spelling Bee every year?

its not the public one

Are spelling bee accomplishments the best measurement of overall academic performance of students?

lets check

Open to every one

No Government involvement

I say yes

Just... wha?


Best Part? WW is going to keep making alts...forever!
 
2012-06-03 02:52:50 PM

proteus_b: Linux_Yes: Religion is the opiate of the uneducated masses (i.e. Republicans)

I wonder if Republicans are more religious than Democrats (or non-voters, or third-party voters)


While I have not done ANY research on this . . . I suspect that Republicans are more homogenous and Democrats are more heterogeneous. So, Republicans may not be more religious - they may be simply more in consensus. It's easy to legislate when everyone on your aside agrees.
 
2012-06-03 02:53:31 PM

Bontesla: That's the wrong question to ask. Inherent in that question is the assumption that this inadequate performance is related to their blackness. It's something within them and not something within society. The fact is - this phenomena isn't limited to blacks. It's also limited to many other minority groups. And when we look at all of the data - it seems to be less racial and more societal.


Well this may be an interesting point and I admit that I hadn't thought of it that way. I suppose that as members of our society, it is indeed everyone's interest. Which is why we're discussing. Now I really will be late to my Klan meeting if I don't run along now.

/by the way what is "ISES"? you have to explain your acronyms. i'm a minority and therefore have historically suffered wrongs which have caused serious brain damages
 
2012-06-03 02:54:51 PM

Jacobin: I've skimmed through some of the 6th grade ABECA school "books". They are beyond appalling.

It's literally as if the kids are listening to a sermon from Pat Robertson on history and science. At first I thought it was some kind of joke or spoof. It's not.

It's the extreme right wing's "final solution" to have this generation become the followers and participants in the emerging Dark Ages


Yup. As I mentioned above, I had to "learn" from those books. Our seventh-grade science textbook had an entire chapter dedicated to debunking evolution and had bible verses interspersed throughout the text, and -I will never forget this- our history textbook said something to this effect about the AIDS epidemic of the 1980s: "The fact that heterosexuals and even newborn children began to contract AIDS shows just how bad our world's sexual immorality had become since the sexual revolution."
 
2012-06-03 02:57:40 PM

Bontesla: Ha. I would simply sleep my way to the top. Living on the fringe of society but sleeping with the most important men will allow me to continue my education and influence major decisions without having to concern myself with proper behavior.


I was referencing "Hysteria" which I saw two nights ago. Then someone called me a dildo, and I thought to myself "now I know the (made-up Hollywood version of) how they were invented!"

/now i really must get to the klan rally, we're voting a new wizard and i gotta cast my vote for cletus
 
2012-06-03 02:58:04 PM

LargeCanine: Can't see how parental choice and more educational options is a bad thing.


Parental choice to use tax money for "education" that amounts to biblical or other sectarian teaching not based in fact or science isn't a bad thing? Huh.
 
2012-06-03 02:58:46 PM

The Name: Yup. As I mentioned above, I had to "learn" from those books. Our seventh-grade science textbook had an entire chapter dedicated to debunking evolution and had bible verses interspersed throughout the text, and -I will never forget this- our history textbook said something to this effect about the AIDS epidemic of the 1980s: "The fact that heterosexuals and even newborn children began to contract AIDS shows just how bad our world's sexual immorality had become since the sexual revolution."


Ouch.
 
2012-06-03 03:01:59 PM

proteus_b: bontesla

thanks for the links. but my very basic understanding of the articles is that they conclude that while SES (socio-economic status---by the way what kind of journal allows you to use an acronym without defining it???) is correlated with achievement, that it's believed that other factors actually cause the SES gap and achievement gap, therefore creating a false illusion that SES is causing the achievement gap. perhaps i am misinterpreting the findings. i believe that both can be factors. as the reference of fartmachine indicated, wealthy families may be spending up to nine times (or more) on educational materials. obviously a kid who takes an SAT prep course will have an advantage over one who doesn't. however, i contend that other factors are at play---my youngest sister taught herself to read at age three---this cannot be attributed to better schooling, but the presence of reading materials and a nurturing environment were most likely beneficial (of course this is an anecdote which proves nothing, but i'm just saying....)

/course now the younger sister is a radical man-hating feminist who majored in womens' studies


I took some womens' study courses. They were . . . interesting . . .

But back to the topic at hand - I do think that's exactly the point. We've made good education a profitable venture. The HSES family has access to resources the LSES and MSES families don't. There isn't a legitimate reason for not providing SAT-tutors to all students and have that price be income contingent (or hell, free, let's make education free goddammit).

If adequate education isn't a basic right in this country - or if our definition of "adequate education" is too generous - then we're going to have achievement gaps.
 
2012-06-03 03:02:11 PM

proteus_b: /now i really must get to the klan rally, we're voting a new wizard and i gotta cast my vote for cletus


You should probably vote for Cooter instead, I hear he's got more huntin' dogs.
 
2012-06-03 03:03:18 PM

Salt Lick Steady: Oh, and you didn't point out that it's not the case that all kids who are kicked out of a charter must go back to public school. You made a rather flippant statement that those who are kicked out could find another charter.


Ha, so now you go back and you realize your mistake. Why don't you write another childish comment to cover up your butt hurt.
 
2012-06-03 03:05:25 PM

Bontesla: If adequate education isn't a basic right in this country - or if our definition of "adequate education" is too generous - then we're going to have achievement gaps.


I'm all for adequate education but what to do?

Salt Lick Steady: You should probably vote for Cooter instead, I hear he's got more huntin' dogs.


Liberal lies!
 
2012-06-03 03:05:27 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Salt Lick Steady: Oh, and you didn't point out that it's not the case that all kids who are kicked out of a charter must go back to public school. You made a rather flippant statement that those who are kicked out could find another charter.

Ha, so now you go back and you realize your mistake. Why don't you write another childish comment to cover up your butt hurt.


That wasn't a mistake, that was an addition to further emphasize your error, and in what way have my comments been childish? I haven't called you names, I haven't used terms like "butt hurt," and I've been more than civil in my fact-based responses.
 
2012-06-03 03:05:47 PM

proteus_b: Bontesla: (NSHRC, Participant's Handbook, Diversity Training - Train the Trainer, July 2004)

pardon my ignorance of "the diversity handbook", our klatch spilt koffee on ours before i was able to get a look at it.

merriam-webster lists "a part of a population differing from others in some characteristics and often subjected to differential treatment". are jews a minority? how about snake-handling hillbillies?


*lol* I wasn't criticizing your ignorance of the handbook. I was criticizing your suggestion that perhaps Minority Group is a tautology. The definition isn't as ambiguous as you're trying to paint it.
 
2012-06-03 03:06:22 PM

Salt Lick Steady: LargeCanine: Can't see how parental choice and more educational options is a bad thing.

Parental choice to use tax money for "education" that amounts to biblical or other sectarian teaching not based in fact or science isn't a bad thing? Huh.


First , you are assuming that religious schools can't or won't each science. The historical record indicates otherwise. Second, if its tax money you are really concerned about, why not lower taxes by the amount spent on education and let parents spend their own money educating their own children?
 
2012-06-03 03:07:12 PM

proteus_b: Salt Lick Steady: You should probably vote for Cooter instead, I hear he's got more huntin' dogs.

Liberal lies!


Yeah, I did hear that he taught 'em all to lie down on command.
 
2012-06-03 03:09:32 PM

pdee:
i1.ytimg.com


Me too. After all, the world continues to need truck drivers, ditch diggers and hamburger flippers. If you send your children to a "school" that teaches them a bunch of fairy tales masquerading as an education, don't come whining to me (or the courts) about how unfair life turns out to be.

FWIW, here in Cali you can send your kid to any school you like, even none at all ("home schooling"). But if they don't have a proper grounding in math and science, along with lit and history, the public colleges and universities don't have to admit them. So kids, believe whatever nonsense you like, but you'd better be able to explain evolution in modern terms, and know the difference between meiosis and mitosis, among other basic scientific concepts.
 
2012-06-03 03:12:30 PM

elffster: proteus_b: clambam: I know I was meaning to put you on Ignore and this kind of post reminds me of why. Bing! Adios, asshole.

I guess it's too late, but just so everyone else knows, Ignore lists are the tool that libs use to keep God out of their brains.

If you are serious, then you are also a misguided dildo.

How can anyone say that and not be a retard?


Do you have a picture of what a misguided dildo may look like?
 
2012-06-03 03:14:01 PM

LargeCanine: First , you are assuming that religious schools can't or won't each science. The historical record indicates otherwise. Second, if its tax money you are really concerned about, why not lower taxes by the amount spent on education and let parents spend their own money educating their own children?


The article clearly indicates that some of the schools in question won't be teaching science.

And with regard to the tax money, your argument should be drawn out to address my particular point: no tax money should be spent on a sectarian education. "Drawing down" taxes for those who have school-age children makes no sense, because school education is generally subsidized by property and other taxes paid by those who don't have school-age children but would prefer to avoid living in a place where the populace is dumb as rocks.

The elderly, the childless, etc.

Moreover, it does not follow that a family with lower taxes will use that money to provide for their child's education (and transportation and supplies).
 
2012-06-03 03:16:21 PM

proteus_b: Bontesla: That's the wrong question to ask. Inherent in that question is the assumption that this inadequate performance is related to their blackness. It's something within them and not something within society. The fact is - this phenomena isn't limited to blacks. It's also limited to many other minority groups. And when we look at all of the data - it seems to be less racial and more societal.

Well this may be an interesting point and I admit that I hadn't thought of it that way. I suppose that as members of our society, it is indeed everyone's interest. Which is why we're discussing. Now I really will be late to my Klan meeting if I don't run along now.

/by the way what is "ISES"? you have to explain your acronyms. i'm a minority and therefore have historically suffered wrongs which have caused serious brain damages


ISES = my screw-up.

ISES = LSES

Sorry.
 
2012-06-03 03:22:20 PM

Sangi: I live in LA. I have two children in primary education. Additionally two friend's wives are primary school teachers and have been for close to 20 years. I've been hearing about this from them for a few months now. There have been some very shady things going on with this legislation. Please note that most of this information is coming from the friends and their wives.

First off there's the standard political money laundering going on with a family member's charity. It has large donations from companies and interestes that are regulated heavily by the LA government. Then several of the state senators who have come out against the vouchers have had their committee status revoked. There has also been some intimidation of teachers from protesting against the changes. This has been shown in filtering of school email access to teachers, harsh punishments for teachers taking off on planned protest dates and new evaluations of teachers being suddenly implemented.

I am really beginning to think that I need to get my and my family's asses out of the south.


See? Louisiana's education system works just fine!
 
2012-06-03 03:25:12 PM

LargeCanine: Can't see how parental choice and more educational options is a bad thing.

Private schooling would be less political too - if you don't like the curriculum, simply change schools.


Private schooling will be more political. It's called product differentiation, or "choice."
 
2012-06-03 03:26:28 PM
Your country is farked. A messianic, "nucularized" super-power, stewing in generous amounts of pathological self-righteousness, is gonna negate the possibility of anything approximating world peace there may have been.
 
2012-06-03 03:30:18 PM

Bontesla: elffster: proteus_b: clambam: I know I was meaning to put you on Ignore and this kind of post reminds me of why. Bing! Adios, asshole.

I guess it's too late, but just so everyone else knows, Ignore lists are the tool that libs use to keep God out of their brains.

If you are serious, then you are also a misguided dildo.

How can anyone say that and not be a retard?

Do you have a picture of what a misguided dildo may look like?




Breitbart.
 
2012-06-03 03:32:00 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Weaver95: well...done well, I don't have any philosophical objection to a religious based education - it CAN work, if done right.

How would a hypothetical religious based education "done right" look?


I went to an Episcopal school for a while. There was two hours of religion classes with the priest a week (Bible study, church history, comparative religion or philosophy of religion depending on your year), and one sermon in chapel a week. And that was it. The rest of the curriculum could've been found at any good Jewish or Catholic or non-religious school in the country. That's religious education done right.
 
2012-06-03 03:40:35 PM

doctor wu: Your country is farked. A messianic, "nucularized" super-power, stewing in generous amounts of pathological self-righteousness, is gonna negate the possibility of anything approximating world peace there may have been.


Thanks, Dr. Hyperbole and your team of wishful thinkers!
 
2012-06-03 03:44:47 PM

Mr. Coffee Nerves: How else are we going to maintain profitability at our private prisons if we don't have a steady stream of raw materials?



flaglerlive.com

feelingloquacious.com

Q: How do you turn a poor person into $100,000 a year?

A: Throw them in prison.
 
2012-06-03 03:55:23 PM

beta_plus: You mean that retarded idea that we got from Denmark and Sweden.


So since they are infallible guides to success, you support implementing the Swedish health care system and retirement plans as well? Or are you merely emptily spewing talking points because thinking is physically painful for you?
 
2012-06-03 03:56:35 PM

Fart_Machine: proteus_b: I also question the nature of "over four hundred years". "The country" itself is less than two-hundred and fifty years old. The institution of slavery in the United States lasted from the 17th to the 19th centuries. Frederick Douglass learned how to read, despite the thousands of years of under-educated ancestors.

You just can't facepalm hard enough here. It was illegal to teach slaves to read and write. Douglass was an escaped slave who never would have been permitted to do either while he was in the South.


In fact, he learned to read illegally and was severely beaten for getting caught reading.
 
2012-06-03 04:18:43 PM

Happy Hours: I'm not sure how a math book can be Bible-based.


Behold: bibliography of Christian mathematics.
 
2012-06-03 04:21:45 PM
Christian math books don't acknowledge the concept of zero.
 
2012-06-03 04:23:10 PM
...and don't get them started on Al-Gebra.
 
2012-06-03 04:29:43 PM
"The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition."

Yeah, this is a bright idea.
 
2012-06-03 04:33:03 PM

Weaver95: beta_plus: Awww, subby and Fark Libs are all butt hurt because those kids are going to learn how to read and they can't.

can you prove that privatization of public schools will provide a better education than the public education system?

ok, how about instead of 'prove' can you at least give us an idea of why you think private run education is better public schools?


I'm not sure that's anything but an assertion to facilitate trolling.

Arizona, for example has PUBLIC charter schools: No cherry-picking of students allowed. Self-selection is another kettle of fish. Even more interestingly, charter schools are not eligible for Title I funding and must accommodate IDEA-disability students.

A podunk town like Tucson has two of the top ten public high schools in the country - one from Tucson Unified School District and one charter. More interestingly, the proportion of minority enrollment in the charter is higher than than for the TUSD school.

Seems to me that the real differences are parents who are involved and interested, challenging curricula taught by teachers who facilitate learning, and where excellence is THE standard. (Duh.)

Private schools do get to cherry-pick, though. Spousal unit was a prepette - private religion-affiliated school in her case - but those same differences applied to her learning success.

Vouchers, though, are just stupid: Unconstitutional backdoor subsidies to religions.
 
2012-06-03 04:39:54 PM
I tell you what we gonna do.

We gonna make all our kids dummies. THAT'll piss off them lib'rals.
 
2012-06-03 04:40:45 PM

proteus_b: You must not remember bevets

Nobody

expects the Span... oh, hang on.
 
2012-06-03 04:48:50 PM

Bontesla: While I have not done ANY research on this . . . I suspect that Republicans are more homogenous and Democrats are more heterogeneous. So, Republicans may not be more religious - they may be simply more in consensus. It's easy to legislate when everyone on your aside agrees.


Not sure what sense of "homogenous" you're using here; probably racial? Whacking the GSS, the relation looks a little more complicated.

The foremost trend is that blacks lean democratic. (Massively, such that any other trend is hard to detect with the sample sizes and fraction of US that's black.) Among whites, those who identify more strongly as religious, tend to identify more strongly with whatever their party is; but the more religious tend disproportionately more republican.
 
2012-06-03 04:54:27 PM
Starting this fall, thousands of poor and middle-class kids will get vouchers covering the full cost of tuition at more than 120 private schools across Louisiana, including small, Bible-based church schools.


OK, so are we supposed to believe that these private schools are less expensive than public schools? How, exactly, is this saving the state money?

/yay creationsim!
 
2012-06-03 04:55:57 PM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Bible-based math? WTF does that even mean?


How many fish did Jesus need to feed a multitude? Show your work?
 
2012-06-03 05:06:20 PM
Good schools require money, and they get it through property taxes or tuition. There is no free lunch. If you want to go to a good school, you have to make sacrifices. Parents who care will do this, those who don't won't.

Sorry if I am not sympathetic to kids with neglectful parents, but if they don't see or impart the value of education onto their kids, it's wasteful to hand it out for free.
 
2012-06-03 05:12:52 PM

wheelofpain: Good schools require money, and they get it through property taxes or tuition. There is no free lunch. If you want to go to a good school, you have to make sacrifices. Parents who care will do this, those who don't won't.

Sorry if I am not sympathetic to kids with neglectful parents, but if they don't see or impart the value of education onto their kids, it's wasteful to hand it out for free.


Poor = neglectful, always. They could have borrowed $20,000 from their parents, after all.
 
2012-06-03 05:23:19 PM

Weaver95: Mrtraveler01:
But of course Conservatives wouldn't like that because it conflicts with their true goal of teaching children Conservative orthodoxy in public schools.

i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?


Because socialism.


propasaurus: Christian math books don't acknowledge the concept of zero.


FIlthy Islamist digit.
 
2012-06-03 05:33:33 PM
beta_plus 2012-06-03 09:50:21 AM

(farky'd as: this is what Republicans actually believe!?)

Mrtraveler01: Weaver95: Mr. Coffee Nerves: How else are we going to maintain profitability at our private prisons if we don't have a steady stream of raw materials?

y'know...after Citzens United you would think that people would be terrified at the idea of letting a corporation with a strong financial motive to put ALL of us into a jail cell is running around essentially unregulated.

They can be like Florida and create for-profit charter schools run by corrupt real estate developers


How much do they make the children have forced semen tasting tests compared to your precious unionized public schools?


So...I am assuming that you approve of this activity as hypothetically practiced by for-profit charter schools, as opposed to the same activity being practiced by [inferred to be inferior] unionized public schools?
 
2012-06-03 05:35:24 PM
So...

Government, through taxes (ie Everyone), is giving the money so that children can be sent to a school where they might not otherwise be able to go...

Doesn't that sound a little.... Communist?
 
2012-06-03 05:36:51 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Curious: i was ask the other day why should parents with kids in private schools have to pay for public schools.

Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?


Maybe because they probably went to one as a child?
 
2012-06-03 05:39:31 PM
At the private schools, we'll also be serving only candy for lunch and breakfast, because that's what people want.
 
2012-06-03 05:40:16 PM

fusillade762: BarkingUnicorn: Curious: i was ask the other day why should parents with kids in private schools have to pay for public schools.

Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?

Maybe because they probably went to one as a child?


...paid for by their parents.
 
2012-06-03 06:07:13 PM

wheelofpain: Good schools require money, and they get it through property taxes or tuition. There is no free lunch. If you want to go to a good school, you have to make sacrifices. Parents who care will do this, those who don't won't.

Sorry if I am not sympathetic to kids with neglectful parents, but if they don't see or impart the value of education onto their kids, it's wasteful to hand it out for free.


what is this i don't even
Do you know how much private school costs? You can care as much as you like but coming up with 15K a year after taxes on a salary of 50K is going to be a hard time. Tack on another kid or a spouse who doesn't work and I guess you can sacrifice things like living in shelter and eating food.
 
2012-06-03 06:11:54 PM

MSFT: wheelofpain: Good schools require money, and they get it through property taxes or tuition. There is no free lunch. If you want to go to a good school, you have to make sacrifices. Parents who care will do this, those who don't won't.

Sorry if I am not sympathetic to kids with neglectful parents, but if they don't see or impart the value of education onto their kids, it's wasteful to hand it out for free.

what is this i don't even
Do you know how much private school costs? You can care as much as you like but coming up with 15K a year after taxes on a salary of 50K is going to be a hard time. Tack on another kid or a spouse who doesn't work and I guess you can sacrifice things like living in shelter and eating food.


They should have thought about that before they decided not to be rich.
 
2012-06-03 06:14:45 PM

Sabyen91: MSFT: wheelofpain: Good schools require money, and they get it through property taxes or tuition. There is no free lunch. If you want to go to a good school, you have to make sacrifices. Parents who care will do this, those who don't won't.

Sorry if I am not sympathetic to kids with neglectful parents, but if they don't see or impart the value of education onto their kids, it's wasteful to hand it out for free.

what is this i don't even
Do you know how much private school costs? You can care as much as you like but coming up with 15K a year after taxes on a salary of 50K is going to be a hard time. Tack on another kid or a spouse who doesn't work and I guess you can sacrifice things like living in shelter and eating food.

They should have thought about that before they decided not to be rich.


They were too busy deciding to be straight.
 
2012-06-03 06:16:16 PM

The Name: IlGreven: Don't Troll Me Bro!: We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

20 years ago, we did just that. Now, we're saying to Louisiana, "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Mississippi."

Or, in other words, we failed.

There's always one or two slow learners in the class. The important thing is that the rest of us doesn't look like Mississippi.


And in 20 years, the rest of us won't look like Mississippi or Louisiana.

We'll look like Texas.

Which is almost as bad.
 
2012-06-03 06:20:28 PM

masterone41:

DC public schools are spending about $24,600 per pupil this school year - roughly $10,000 more than the average for area private schools.


Best part????


all taxes

forever!!!
 
2012-06-03 06:20:43 PM

StoneColdAtheist: pdee:

FWIW, here in Cali you can send your kid to any school you like, even none at all ("home schooling"). But if they don't have a proper grounding in math and science, along with lit and history, the public colleges and universities don't have to admit them. So kids, believe whatever nonsense you like, but you'd better be able to explain evolution in modern terms, and know the difference between meiosis and mitosis, among other basic scientific concepts.


What California does is good (for those unaware--the three most common "educational" packages used in dominionist private schools and "homeschool" correspondence-school programs (A Beka, Bob Jones University, and ACE/School of Tomorrow) are considered to be SO educationally insufficient re their science, mathematics, and US and world history content that someone SOLELY educated with those curricula is inadmissible to the California public university system).

I'd personally like to go one step further, though--I'm with those folks who feel there should be a national criteria for "educationally sufficient" material that is published (basically solid education on the level of public or good, non-dominionist parochial or private schools--the Episcopalian, Catholic and Jewish school systems being examples, of course adjusted to the developmental level of a student) and that a student taught entirely from correspondence-school or private-school material that does not meet these standards should be considered legally truant.

(This actually DID used to be the case, as an aside, and STILL does on occasion happen--ACE/School of Tomorrow and Bill Gothard's "homeschool" curricula are probably the most frequent offenders in this case, with students being taught solely with these programs occasionally considered to be subject to educational neglect.)

Conversely, private schools and legitimate homeschoolers could keep a semester-long plan or log detailing lesson plans (or, in the case of homeschooling, what was done to meet this educational goal) so long as it's education suitable to the developmental level of the kid (nobody is expecting a child with an IQ of 40 to master precalculus, but teaching about basic life skills and basic mathematics and science to the level of a normal school ECE program isn't unexpected).

And the reason I note "Basic standards appropriate to educational level equivalent to those in a public school, appropriate to the developmental level of the child"--worded in this manner, this could keep folks engaging in legitimate homeschooling safe (for example, folks who are raising kids with special needs that the public school system can't provide for)--for example, for science requirements for study of evolutionary science, they could note how they read books on evolution, went on trips to science museums, and so on)--the main difference, and this is actually not even a difference in a lot of states, would be that a homeschooling parent keeps an educational log for the semester to show their education is "educationally sufficient to the developmental stage of the child".

So this way, folks who use legitimate private education or home education could teach their kids, and it should hopefully weed out the dominionist correspondence-schoolers and "private Christian school" operators.

(And yes, I know this functionally means that EVERY child would have an IEP or equivalent. I'm not entirely sure this is a bad idea, to be honest.)

Another issue that is VERY likely in play with these Louisiana schools, and which California's new "minimum standards for public university entry" covers, is the fact that most dominionist schools get their accreditation from what amount to accreditation mills--they just give statements on what curricula they use, sign a statement of faith, pay money (and in cases where state accreditation mills operate, sometimes not even money other than a yearly membership fee) and they get "accredited"--and some states exempt private religious schools from accreditation altogether, especially in the Southeast.

(In the case of California, the same note that blocks folks using ONLY dominionist curricula also effectively considers any school accredited by ACSI--one of the larger dominionist "accreditation mills" targeting pre-collegiate education--to be, for all intents and purposes, unaccredited for purposes of admission to the state college system. This is actually becoming more common, as Michigan is another state that pretty much has officially listed ACSI as an accreditation mill...)
 
2012-06-03 06:25:43 PM

masterone41: MSFT: wheelofpain: Good schools require money, and they get it through property taxes or tuition. There is no free lunch. If you want to go to a good school, you have to make sacrifices. Parents who care will do this, those who don't won't.

Sorry if I am not sympathetic to kids with neglectful parents, but if they don't see or impart the value of education onto their kids, it's wasteful to hand it out for free.

what is this i don't even
Do you know how much private school costs? You can care as much as you like but coming up with 15K a year after taxes on a salary of 50K is going to be a hard time. Tack on another kid or a spouse who doesn't work and I guess you can sacrifice things like living in shelter and eating food.


DC public schools are spending about $24,600 per pupil this school year - roughly $10,000 more than the average for area private schools.

Just the Facts


This is why school is publicly subsidized. Having a worthwhile workforce is worth - and costs - more than most families with school-aged children can afford.
 
2012-06-03 06:26:03 PM

masterone41: DC public schools are spending about $24,600 per pupil this school year - roughly $10,000 more than the average for area private schools.

Just the Facts


Citation needed. With the special needs eliminated. They inflate the stats big time.
 
2012-06-03 06:28:39 PM

masterone41: don't you just like Liberal Fail? What else do you expect?


best phart

winterwile band

4eva
 
2012-06-03 06:30:36 PM

masterone41: the 5 Trillion Obama spent?


lol he spent over 6 trillion just visiting india in his spaceshhip
turn off communist news network and get educated
 
2012-06-03 06:37:24 PM

badger-badger: Dammit AMonkeysUncle


www.smidgeindustriesltd.com
 
2012-06-03 06:41:46 PM
stop talking to that asshole and /ignore it.
 
2012-06-03 07:12:59 PM
Yeah, that's enough of that one.
 
2012-06-03 07:20:23 PM
Great.

Now ww simulator alts will be all the trend for a few weeks, huh.
 
2012-06-03 07:22:41 PM
All one has to do is compare the {graduation rates/ teacher salaries/ administration costs} to realize that public education is an absolute and complete failure. Perhaps another solution is needed as the public unions are unwilling to change the current system.
 
2012-06-03 07:28:13 PM

Bontesla: Do you have a picture of what a misguided dildo may look like?


Have you tried

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&biw=&bih=&q=vibrator+x+ra y

/Wouldn't suggest doing it from work (and remember to take out the spaces that Fark injects into the URL)
 
2012-06-03 07:28:23 PM

bigsteve3OOO: All one has to do is compare the {graduation rates/ teacher salaries/ administration costs} to realize that public education is an absolute and complete failure. Perhaps another solution is needed as the public unions are unwilling to change the current system.


GOP solution = disassemble what we have and give up. America is hard.

Who cares if an entire generation goes undereducated. Instead of finding a real way to improve things, just eliminate the Department of Education and confuse these simpletons into giving their money away to people who have no interest at all in educating children, but only in profit or indoctrination.

What a plan.
 
2012-06-03 07:34:05 PM

Lenny_da_Hog: bigsteve3OOO: All one has to do is compare the {graduation rates/ teacher salaries/ administration costs} to realize that public education is an absolute and complete failure. Perhaps another solution is needed as the public unions are unwilling to change the current system.

GOP solution = disassemble what we have and give up. America is hard.

Who cares if an entire generation goes undereducated. Instead of finding a real way to improve things, just eliminate the Department of Education and confuse these simpletons into giving their money away to people who have no interest at all in educating children, but only in profit or indoctrination.

What a plan.


And the Democrat plan is? spend more for the same shaitty results. Both teams suck so vote ......or not you get the same crap.
 
2012-06-03 07:44:18 PM

bulldg4life: I am not reading a page formatted like that.

beta_plus: Awww, subby and Fark Libs are all butt hurt because those kids are going to learn how to read and they can't.

It's Sunday morning. Seriously. You're trolling an internet message board on, I'm assuming, a sunny Sunday morning.

Whether you get paid to do it or not, don't you ever sit back and wonder what went wrong in your life?


Unlike you, I have a job and have to work tomorrow.
 
2012-06-03 07:47:11 PM

Mrtraveler01: beta_plus: Mrtraveler01: Weaver95: Mr. Coffee Nerves: How else are we going to maintain profitability at our private prisons if we don't have a steady stream of raw materials?

y'know...after Citzens United you would think that people would be terrified at the idea of letting a corporation with a strong financial motive to put ALL of us into a jail cell is running around essentially unregulated.

They can be like Florida and create for-profit charter schools run by corrupt real estate developers

Link

How much do they make the children have forced semen tasting tests compared to your precious unionized public schools?

Look, I'm sorry about what happened to you in Catholic school but this isn't the place to discuss that.


So you want parents to send their kids to forced semen ingestion schools without the right to send their kid to another school unless they can afford to move to your majority white suburban neighborhood. Got it, you racist anti-catholic anti-semite.
 
2012-06-03 07:50:41 PM

masterone41: LavenderWolf: masterone41: MSFT: wheelofpain:

DC public schools are spending about $24,600 per pupil this school year - roughly $10,000 more than the average for area private schools.

Just the Facts

This is why school is publicly subsidized. Having a worthwhile workforce is worth - and costs - more than most families with school-aged children can afford.

...that could be used to pay down the 5 Trillion Obama spent?


Dafuq does that have to do with anything?

Anyways, $15,000/yr is more than most families can afford, let alone the additional $10,000 that has you up in arms.
 
2012-06-03 07:51:56 PM

beta_plus: So you want parents to send their kids to forced semen ingestion schools without the right to send their kid to another school unless they can afford to move to your majority white suburban neighborhood. Got it, you racist anti-catholic anti-semite.


I'm Catholic. I can make those kind of jokes.

And no I don't want to force kids to go to Catholic school like you seem to be implying.
 
2012-06-03 08:03:47 PM

bigsteve3OOO: All one has to do is compare the {graduation rates/ teacher salaries/ administration costs} to realize that public education is an absolute and complete failure. Perhaps another solution is needed as the public unions are unwilling to change the current system.


Yeah, well, private schools have a lot of built in advantages. It's easier to kick the bad kids out, they can be more selective about who they let in, and the students come mainly from wealthier families. Most private schools can rely on large donations from wealthy alumni for funds. Catholic schools have a work-force filled with women who have dedicated their entire lives to teaching; they have no families, never take maternity leave, and most live in a communal living space. Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough nuns in America to take over the public school system.
 
2012-06-03 08:05:47 PM
Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory

Sets are the devil's work! set, hmmm, Set (Egyptian God of Evil), you think we're blind?
 
2012-06-03 08:06:23 PM

LavenderWolf: masterone41: LavenderWolf: masterone41: MSFT: wheelofpain:

DC public schools are spending about $24,600 per pupil this school year - roughly $10,000 more than the average for area private schools.

Just the Facts

This is why school is publicly subsidized. Having a worthwhile workforce is worth - and costs - more than most families with school-aged children can afford.

...that could be used to pay down the 5 Trillion Obama spent?

Dafuq does that have to do with anything?

Anyways, $15,000/yr is more than most families can afford, let alone the additional $10,000 that has you up in arms.


seems to me with a graduation rate of 58% you would not choose DC as any example of why a public school is a good thing. Link
 
2012-06-03 08:13:12 PM

HighOnCraic: bigsteve3OOO: All one has to do is compare the {graduation rates/ teacher salaries/ administration costs} to realize that public education is an absolute and complete failure. Perhaps another solution is needed as the public unions are unwilling to change the current system.

Yeah, well, private schools have a lot of built in advantages. It's easier to kick the bad kids teachers out, they can be more selective about who they let inteaching instead of indoctrinating , and the students come mainly from wealthier familiesparents who know the dangers of a public education. Most private schools can rely on large donations from wealthy alumni for funds as opposed to politicizing education to whore for grant money. Catholic schools have a work-force filled with women who have dedicated their entire lives to teaching; they have no families, never take maternity leave, and most live in a communal living space. Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough nuns in America to take over the public school system.have a system that attracts lazy people who want summers off.

FTFY
 
2012-06-03 08:21:58 PM

bigsteve3OOO: HighOnCraic: bigsteve3OOO: All one has to do is compare the {graduation rates/ teacher salaries/ administration costs} to realize that public education is an absolute and complete failure. Perhaps another solution is needed as the public unions are unwilling to change the current system.

Yeah, well, private schools have a lot of built in advantages. It's easier to kick the bad kids teachers out, they can be more selective about who they let inteaching instead of indoctrinating , and the students come mainly from wealthier familiesparents who know the dangers of a public education. Most private schools can rely on large donations from wealthy alumni for funds as opposed to politicizing education to whore for grant money. Catholic schools have a work-force filled with women who have dedicated their entire lives to teaching; they have no families, never take maternity leave, and most live in a communal living space. Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough nuns in America to take over the public school system.have a system that attracts lazy people who want summers off.
FTFY


Wow, you sure are willing to ignore a lot of factors.
 
2012-06-03 08:27:03 PM

HighOnCraic: bigsteve3OOO: HighOnCraic: bigsteve3OOO: All one has to do is compare the {graduation rates/ teacher salaries/ administration costs} to realize that public education is an absolute and complete failure. Perhaps another solution is needed as the public unions are unwilling to change the current system.

Yeah, well, private schools have a lot of built in advantages. It's easier to kick the bad kids teachers out, they can be more selective about who they let inteaching instead of indoctrinating , and the students come mainly from wealthier familiesparents who know the dangers of a public education. Most private schools can rely on large donations from wealthy alumni for funds as opposed to politicizing education to whore for grant money. Catholic schools have a work-force filled with women who have dedicated their entire lives to teaching; they have no families, never take maternity leave, and most live in a communal living space. Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough nuns in America to take over the public school system.have a system that attracts lazy people who want summers off.
FTFY

Wow, you sure are willing to ignore a lot of factors.


Also note the abandonment of, "we have to try *something*" and wholehearted acceptance of, "Government bad."
 
2012-06-03 08:33:20 PM

HighOnCraic: bigsteve3OOO: HighOnCraic: bigsteve3OOO: All one has to do is compare the {graduation rates/ teacher salaries/ administration costs} to realize that public education is an absolute and complete failure. Perhaps another solution is needed as the public unions are unwilling to change the current system.

Yeah, well, private schools have a lot of built in advantages. It's easier to kick the bad kids teachers out, they can be more selective about who they let inteaching instead of indoctrinating , and the students come mainly from wealthier familiesparents who know the dangers of a public education. Most private schools can rely on large donations from wealthy alumni for funds as opposed to politicizing education to whore for grant money. Catholic schools have a work-force filled with women who have dedicated their entire lives to teaching; they have no families, never take maternity leave, and most live in a communal living space. Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough nuns in America to take over the public school system.have a system that attracts lazy people who want summers off.
FTFY

Wow, you sure are willing to ignore a lot of factors.


the exact same could be said of you. the system you defend has horrible results; yet, you defend it.
 
2012-06-03 08:38:08 PM

Lenny_da_Hog: HighOnCraic: bigsteve3OOO: HighOnCraic: bigsteve3OOO: All one has to do is compare the {graduation rates/ teacher salaries/ administration costs} to realize that public education is an absolute and complete failure. Perhaps another solution is needed as the public unions are unwilling to change the current system.

Yeah, well, private schools have a lot of built in advantages. It's easier to kick the bad kids teachers out, they can be more selective about who they let inteaching instead of indoctrinating , and the students come mainly from wealthier familiesparents who know the dangers of a public education. Most private schools can rely on large donations from wealthy alumni for funds as opposed to politicizing education to whore for grant money. Catholic schools have a work-force filled with women who have dedicated their entire lives to teaching; they have no families, never take maternity leave, and most live in a communal living space. Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough nuns in America to take over the public school system.have a system that attracts lazy people who want summers off.
FTFY

Wow, you sure are willing to ignore a lot of factors.

Also note the abandonment of, "we have to try *something*" and wholehearted acceptance of, "Government bad."


We are talking about education. Specifically public education. It is bad. The government runs it. Why wouldn't the next logical step be the government is bad at education. If we could all agree to that point then perhaps we could fix the problem. It is not like they are new at it. Long ago they were better at it. The past might be a starting point to fixing it. Go back to where kids got a good education, see what new idea was tried, realize that it did not work, and go back to the old system.
 
2012-06-03 08:41:47 PM

bigsteve3OOO: We are talking about education. Specifically public education. It is bad. The government runs it. Why wouldn't the next logical step be the government is bad at education.


Because it isn't. The US had an enviable education system into the 1970s. Other countries have great government-run programs. Several states have supported great education systems in the past. It is possible to accomplish.

Your entire premise is false.
 
2012-06-03 08:47:43 PM

bigsteve3OOO: HighOnCraic: bigsteve3OOO: HighOnCraic: bigsteve3OOO: All one has to do is compare the {graduation rates/ teacher salaries/ administration costs} to realize that public education is an absolute and complete failure. Perhaps another solution is needed as the public unions are unwilling to change the current system.

Yeah, well, private schools have a lot of built in advantages. It's easier to kick the bad kids teachers out, they can be more selective about who they let inteaching instead of indoctrinating , and the students come mainly from wealthier familiesparents who know the dangers of a public education. Most private schools can rely on large donations from wealthy alumni for funds as opposed to politicizing education to whore for grant money. Catholic schools have a work-force filled with women who have dedicated their entire lives to teaching; they have no families, never take maternity leave, and most live in a communal living space. Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough nuns in America to take over the public school system.have a system that attracts lazy people who want summers off.
FTFY

Wow, you sure are willing to ignore a lot of factors.

the exact same could be said of you. the system you defend has horrible results; yet, you defend it.


I'm not defending the horrible results of our public school system. I'm just pointing out some of the advantages that private schools have over public school, which helps explain why private schools get better results.
 
2012-06-03 08:48:29 PM

Lenny_da_Hog: bigsteve3OOO: We are talking about education. Specifically public education. It is bad. The government runs it. Why wouldn't the next logical step be the government is bad at education.

Because it isn't. The US had an enviable education system into the 1970s. Other countries have great government-run programs. Several states have supported great education systems in the past. It is possible to accomplish.

Your entire premise is false.


None of what you say (except my premise) is wrong. as a matter of fact you make my argument for me. Other countries have great programs. We up to the 1970s had one of the best. Today it sux. Why? More money has not helped. I suggest we go back to the date you suggest, 1970, and start there. Cost per student (inflation adjusted) and curriculum. Then at least we will be as good as we were 40 some odd years ago.
 
2012-06-03 08:49:15 PM

bigsteve3OOO: It's easier to kick the bad kids teachers out, they can be more selective about who they let inteaching instead of indoctrinating


Religious schools are all about indoctrinating.

What have you been smoking?
 
2012-06-03 08:50:40 PM

Lenny_da_Hog: Also note the abandonment of, "we have to try *something*" and wholehearted acceptance of, "Government bad."


Apparently some people were looking way farther back into the annals of history than I realized when they proclaimed "Fix Old, No New".
 
2012-06-03 08:56:57 PM

bigsteve3OOO: None of what you say (except my premise) is wrong. as a matter of fact you make my argument for me. Other countries have great programs. We up to the 1970s had one of the best. Today it sux. Why? More money has not helped. I suggest we go back to the date you suggest, 1970, and start there. Cost per student (inflation adjusted) and curriculum. Then at least we will be as good as we were 40 some odd years ago.


Stop.

If it is possible, it is possible. Government *can* run a good system.

(aside: That "American Exceptionalism" sure goes right out the window any time we talk about Americans using their government for anything other than defense, eh? Then Americans suddenly become incapable and inept...)

All you're saying is that you're too lazy to examine a complicated issue and improve on methods. It's easier to let it die and let the vultures eat it.
 
2012-06-03 08:58:58 PM
Wouldn't that be spelled potatoe in Conserviana?
 
2012-06-03 08:59:15 PM
Hmm, education vouchers for private schools in the South. . . Where have I heard that idea before?

In 1956, the Virginia General Assembly passed a series of laws known as the Stanley plan to implement massive resistance. One of these laws created a program of "tuition grants" which could be given to students so they could attend a private school of their choice. In practice, this meant support of all-white schools that appeared as a response to forced integration, and these newly formed schools became known as the "segregation academies."

When faced with an order to integrate, Prince Edward County closed its entire school system in September 1959 rather than integrate. The county kept its entire school system closed until 1964. Many white students were able to get educated at the newly-created Prince Edward Academy, which operated as the de facto school system, enrolling K-12 students at a number of facilities throughout the county. Even after the re-opening of the public schools, the Academy remained segregated, losing its tax-exempt status in 1978.

Although on January 19, 1959, the Virginia Supreme Court of Appeals struck down the linchpin of the Massive Resistance laws, the one closing schools about to be integrated,[9] individual state tuition grants to parents allowed them to fund the segregation academies. It was not until 1964 that the U.S. Supreme Court outlawed Virginia's tuition grants to private education where the public schools had been closed, such as in Prince Edward County.[10]

Link
 
2012-06-03 09:00:45 PM

Mrtraveler01: Religious schools are all about indoctrinating.


Education itself is all about indoctrinating, in a sense.
 
2012-06-03 09:01:44 PM

masterone41: bigsteve3OOO: LavenderWolf: masterone41: LavenderWolf: masterone41: MSFT: wheelofpain:


you do know that 50% of Black men age 18-25 in DC do not get up, and look for work, or go to work?

yea... that's a graduation rate to be proud of

sunk another liberal.....


Yes that is true. Why? Why are they so despondent? I do not accept that it is race. I do not believe that. There are three things that are needed to allow people to reach their full potential. 1. Education (the DC area does not give a good one) 2. Opportunity (thanks to stupidity like minimum wage and other regulations there is no entry level work) 3. Freedom (none to be had in a cradle to grave system)
 
2012-06-03 09:06:53 PM

bigsteve3OOO: 2. Opportunity (thanks to stupidity like minimum wage and other regulations there is no entry level work)


Yes, because if we allowed people to pay workers $2-$3 an hour, that will be sufficient enough for people to survive.

/sarcasm
 
2012-06-03 09:08:43 PM

beta_plus: Mrtraveler01: Weaver95: Mr. Coffee Nerves: How else are we going to maintain profitability at our private prisons if we don't have a steady stream of raw materials?

y'know...after Citzens United you would think that people would be terrified at the idea of letting a corporation with a strong financial motive to put ALL of us into a jail cell is running around essentially unregulated.

They can be like Florida and create for-profit charter schools run by corrupt real estate developers

Link

How much do they make the children have forced semen tasting tests compared to your precious unionized public schools?


What the holy fark is wrong with you? Seriously. You need help, dude.
 
2012-06-03 09:09:23 PM
As a Louisiana resident, all I have to say is the Bobby Jindal is a cancer and an idiot and if he runs for higher office you should work hard to oppose him and any policy he promotes.
 
2012-06-03 09:14:39 PM

bigsteve3OOO: masterone41: bigsteve3OOO: LavenderWolf: masterone41: LavenderWolf: masterone41: MSFT: wheelofpain:


you do know that 50% of Black men age 18-25 in DC do not get up, and look for work, or go to work?

yea... that's a graduation rate to be proud of

sunk another liberal.....

Yes that is true. Why? Why are they so despondent? I do not accept that it is race.


You're right. I saw the some of that same mentality on the Dublin's Northside and even in Southside areas like Dolphin's Barn, and I was there during the Celtic Tiger years.

/Roddy Doyle was right.
//Say it loud!
 
2012-06-03 09:16:10 PM

Lenny_da_Hog: bigsteve3OOO:

Stop.

If it is possible, it is possible. Government *can* run a good system.

(aside: That "American Exceptionalism" sure goes right out the window any time we talk about Americans using their government for anything other than defense, eh? Then Americans suddenly become incapable and inept...)

All you're saying is that you're too lazy to examine a complicated issue and improve on methods. It's easier to let it die and let the vultures eat it.


The government must run schools. They must run good schools that provide all children excellent education at a bulk rate discount price. That and a few other thing are the job of government. Like rural power distribution or roads or police/fire departments. It is a shame that they waste all that money on fighting bogey men in resource rich counties at the behest of Global Corporations.
My point is the stupidity of private school would not exist in any volume if, teachers would teach students to think instead of training drones. If teachers that sux were removed from the process. If administrators were held to account for the failures of the system they proctor. If tax payers were not subjected to 4,5,10x raises in property tax year over when inflation has been 2-3x. Yes I have solutions. Accountability #1. Teachers work a full 50 weeks a year #2. Pre 1970s curriculum taught #3.
 
2012-06-03 09:17:21 PM

HighOnCraic: bigsteve3OOO: masterone41: bigsteve3OOO: LavenderWolf: masterone41: LavenderWolf: masterone41: MSFT: wheelofpain:


you do know that 50% of Black men age 18-25 in DC do not get up, and look for work, or go to work?

yea... that's a graduation rate to be proud of

sunk another liberal.....

Yes that is true. Why? Why are they so despondent? I do not accept that it is race.

You're right. I saw the some of that same mentality on the Dublin's Northside and even in Southside areas like Dolphin's Barn, and I was there during the Celtic Tiger years.

/Roddy Doyle was right.
//Say it loud!


I also saw the same mentality on this too:

images1.wikia.nocookie.net

www.wallpapershell.com
 
2012-06-03 09:32:25 PM

taxandspend: [sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net image 320x213]


Democracy means exactly that.
 
2012-06-03 09:45:26 PM
lh4.ggpht.com
 
2012-06-03 09:48:14 PM

proteus_b: I just saw this movie about the subject.


ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2012-06-03 09:48:49 PM

bigsteve3OOO: Lenny_da_Hog: bigsteve3OOO:

Stop.

If it is possible, it is possible. Government *can* run a good system.

(aside: That "American Exceptionalism" sure goes right out the window any time we talk about Americans using their government for anything other than defense, eh? Then Americans suddenly become incapable and inept...)

All you're saying is that you're too lazy to examine a complicated issue and improve on methods. It's easier to let it die and let the vultures eat it.

The government must run schools. They must run good schools that provide all children excellent education at a bulk rate discount price. That and a few other thing are the job of government. Like rural power distribution or roads or police/fire departments. It is a shame that they waste all that money on fighting bogey men in resource rich counties at the behest of Global Corporations.
My point is the stupidity of private school would not exist in any volume if, teachers would teach students to think instead of training drones. If teachers that sux were removed from the process. If administrators were held to account for the failures of the system they proctor. If tax payers were not subjected to 4,5,10x raises in property tax year over when inflation has been 2-3x. Yes I have solutions. Accountability #1. Teachers work a full 50 weeks a year #2. Pre 1970s curriculum taught #3.


1. We already have accountability.
2. Teachers work all year, contrary to the BS line everyone keeps towing.
3. So, we shouldn't teach anything from the last 30-40 years? Yeah, we'll be A-#1 then!

You really have no idea what you're talking about. Why don't you go have another beer and leave the thinking to the adults in the room. KTHXBYE.
 
2012-06-03 09:51:40 PM

bigsteve3OOO: Lenny_da_Hog: bigsteve3OOO: We are talking about education. Specifically public education. It is bad. The government runs it. Why wouldn't the next logical step be the government is bad at education.

Because it isn't. The US had an enviable education system into the 1970s. Other countries have great government-run programs. Several states have supported great education systems in the past. It is possible to accomplish.

Your entire premise is false.

None of what you say (except my premise) is wrong. as a matter of fact you make my argument for me. Other countries have great programs. We up to the 1970s had one of the best. Today it sux. Why? More money has not helped. I suggest we go back to the date you suggest, 1970, and start there. Cost per student (inflation adjusted) and curriculum. Then at least we will be as good as we were 40 some odd years ago.


So, I assume what you're saying is to reinstitute institutional care facilities for the intellectually disabled and/or finding creative ways to keep kids in need of special education services out of the public school system?

Because the one HUEG change in public schooling in the 70s (which is also the one factor that tends to keep the costs per student high, as well as the money-to-graduation ratio, lower in public versus private and parochial schools) was the passage of PL 94-142 which guaranteed students with special needs the right to a free education in public schools in the US--which was passed in 1975, two years after Section 504 of the 1973 Rehabilitation Act (which was the first law in the US granting civil rights to persons with disabilities, including the right to free and appropriate schooling).

You see, up until those days, public schools more often than not refused to even admit kids with learning disabilities, kids who were considered intellectually disabled (both those who would be considered to have a genuine intellectual disability and would be defined as "mentally retarded" AND those kids who would nowadays be classified as autistic or "on the spectrum"), kids who had severe vision and/or hearing disabilities, kids who had emotional or mental disorders, and so on...pretty much in exactly the same way that PRIVATE schools more often than not refuse to admit those students nowadays, and under the same excuses (either the kid would be seen as "too disruptive to the educational environment" or the "we really don't have the funds to assist your blind/deaf/autistic/retarded/stuck-in-a-wheelchair-and-needing-speech- therapy-due-to-CP snowflake").

Oh, did I mention this wasn't just restricted to kids with cognitive or mental disabilities? They also pretty much routinely cockblocked those with PHYSICAL disabilities too--not just hearing or vision disabilities, but things like needing a wheelchair to get around, or needing speech therapy services.

No, you see, in the good old days you mention, the blind and deaf and Otherwise Perceived As Broken kids were routinely refused admission at regular public schools, and tended to be warehoused in state or county Special Ed Schools (if lucky), in correspondence schooling (if the issue was that Billy Is Seen As A Possibly Educable Gimp), or (if kid was not so lucky, which was much of the time) warehoused in facilities euphemistically referred to as Care Homes For Crippled Children or Institutional Care Facilities For The Mentally Retarded or the state mental hospital. (Yes, you're reading this right. If you were one of Jerry's Kids or had CP (but normal intelligence) or had the misfortune to get polio, you still got sent to the tardfarm school if not sent to the tardfarm in general. And no, it was not quite Katawa Shoujo, to put it nicely..)

If the kid has something like dyslexia or the like? He'd be pretty much encouraged to flunk out or drop out and go into Manual Labour. (I can actually vouch this happened in my own family--with my father, who ended up being shown the door due to difficulties reading which turned out to be (as was discovered decades later when he did get his GED) undiagnosed dyslexia.)

Now, if you seriously are talking about bring back tardfarms and insane asylums and reform schools as places to warehouse all those inconvenient Special Eds who are likely to be flat-out refused or Summarily Dismissed Very Quickly from a voucher program NOT focusing on their particular disability (and it tends to be very, very, very rare indeed that you see things like funded Charter Schools and voucher programs for those Very Expensive Private Schools For Children With Autism; typically, vouchers and charter schools are aimed at the Well In Body And Mind if not the overtly gifted and talented) so that public schools can compete with private schools, be my guest. Just DON'T be surprised at the general pickets in your direction by lots of very pissed off parents AND graduates of schools under SPED programs.
 
2012-06-03 10:04:17 PM

Great Porn Dragon: bigsteve3OOO: Lenny_da_Hog: bigsteve3OOO: (GENERAL IDIOCY)

Your entire premise is false. (AWESOMENESS)


*slow clap with the deepest respect*

Thank you for saying what needed to be said.
 
2012-06-03 10:06:45 PM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."



It doesn't matter. People who want to believe will just find some other tenuous bullshiat to attribute the failure to.

Supply side economics is as clearly demonstrated and unequivocal a disaster as you can find and yet people still gobble it up with a spoon while blaming its failures on whatever convenient scapegoat they can find standing near by... or worse yet, chalk the failure up on the fact that we just haven't gone far enough.

It's like this "accomplishments" page on GOP.com:

Link

They claim credit for every positive thing in American history by digging around to find whatever tenuous Republican connection they can find.


"The Voting Rights Act

Congressional page, young Republican Willis Hawthorne, delivered the Voting Rights Act documents from congress to the White House to be signed into law."
 
2012-06-03 10:30:16 PM

technicolor-misfit: Don't Troll Me Bro!: Other schools approved for state-funded vouchers use social studies texts warning that liberals threaten global prosperity; Bible-based math books that don't cover modern concepts such as set theory; and biology texts built around refuting evolution.

We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."


It doesn't matter. People who want to believe will just find some other tenuous bullshiat to attribute the failure to.

Supply side economics is as clearly demonstrated and unequivocal a disaster as you can find and yet people still gobble it up with a spoon while blaming its failures on whatever convenient scapegoat they can find standing near by... or worse yet, chalk the failure up on the fact that we just haven't gone far enough.

It's like this "accomplishments" page on GOP.com:

Link

They claim credit for every positive thing in American history by digging around to find whatever tenuous Republican connection they can find.


"The Voting Rights Act

Congressional page, young Republican Willis Hawthorne, delivered the Voting Rights Act documents from congress to the White House to be signed into law."


They are quite lame in their attempts to revise history. Southern Strategy? What Southern Strategy?

There's a group that lists A. Philip Randolph, Martin Luther King, and Jackie Robinson as prominent black Republicans.

Link

Granted, Jackie Robinson supported Nelson Rockefeller in the '64 primaries, but here's what he had to say about being the GOP convention:

"A new breed of Republicans had taken over the GOP. As I watched this steamroller operation in San Francisco, I had a better understanding of how it must have felt to be a Jew in Hitler's Germany."

Link

And they don't mention the part where Jesse Helms (R-NC) denounced MLK for being a socialist during the debate over the King holiday.

Link

And A. Philip Randolph was a union leader and member of the Socialist Party of America.
 
2012-06-03 10:46:13 PM
THIS is why we haven't been able to go back to the Moon. :(
 
2012-06-03 10:49:46 PM

Weaver95: i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?


1. Get rid of public education.

2. Start whining that the cost of school vouchers is draining our national budget and threatening our ability to give more tax cuts for the rich. Start demanding budget cuts.

3. Profit (if you're already filthy rich)
 
2012-06-03 10:55:19 PM

shpritz: Weaver95:
i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?

I reckon "Government=BAD" dogma is the official line.


Seeing as how "the government" has thwarted conservatives on everything from legal slavery to Jim Crow, it's no wonder why they hate those meddling kids the federal government so much.

And yes, I am fully expecting the day to arrive when some dickslap on Fox News is going to bring up the subject of bringing back slavery. We already live in these unthinkable times where domestic surveillance and even torture has been made legal. I'm sure that slope has been well lubricated with loads of WD-40 by now and someone's gonna say "Hey! Instead of giving them welfare, why don't we just put chains on all these deadbeat n*ggers and sell them?".
 
2012-06-03 11:24:28 PM

Mrtraveler01: How the hell have you guys not realized it's winterwhile yet with a 2 hour old alt?


As a public service announcement, a list of winterwhile's suspected alts and the thread numbers where he's derped:

buttondip (7107476, 7109468)
dang sure (7019710)
jim_walter (7126840)
madmark63 (7138553)
masterone41 (7140988)
mickjagger679 (7122280)
slower_rock (7116019)
 
2012-06-03 11:50:04 PM

masterone41: MSFT: masterone41: don't you just like Liberal Fail? What else do you expect?

best phart

winterwile band

4eva

I love Liberal fail. They just change the subject them it goes bad for them.


Do you love Liberal Fail forever?
 
2012-06-03 11:51:28 PM

IMDWalrus: Mrtraveler01: How the hell have you guys not realized it's winterwhile yet with a 2 hour old alt?

As a public service announcement, a list of winterwhile's suspected alts and the thread numbers where he's derped:

buttondip (7107476, 7109468)
dang sure (7019710)
jim_walter (7126840)
madmark63 (7138553)
masterone41 (7140988)
mickjagger679 (7122280)
slower_rock (7116019)


madmark and masterone are both definitely his alts. Hey Drew, wanna do something about him or not? He is ignored by 50% (it should be 99%).
 
2012-06-03 11:54:41 PM

IMDWalrus: Mrtraveler01: How the hell have you guys not realized it's winterwhile yet with a 2 hour old alt?

As a public service announcement, a list of winterwhile's suspected alts and the thread numbers where he's derped:

buttondip (7107476, 7109468)
dang sure (7019710)
jim_walter (7126840)
madmark63 (7138553)
masterone41 (7140988)
mickjagger679 (7122280)
slower_rock (7116019)


Thanks for this. I was wondering if someone had a list handy. Definitely one for "Retard Red".
 
2012-06-04 12:12:42 AM
To paraphrase a poster on another site regarding this issue, if the Right doesn't want my tax dollars to fund abortion or birth control, then why the fark do I have to fund religious schools?
 
2012-06-04 01:39:11 AM

Sabyen91: IMDWalrus: Mrtraveler01: How the hell have you guys not realized it's winterwhile yet with a 2 hour old alt?

As a public service announcement, a list of winterwhile's suspected alts and the thread numbers where he's derped:

buttondip (7107476, 7109468)
dang sure (7019710)
jim_walter (7126840)
madmark63 (7138553)
masterone41 (7140988)
mickjagger679 (7122280)
slower_rock (7116019)

madmark and masterone are both definitely his alts. Hey Drew, wanna do something about him or not? He is ignored by 50% (it should be 99%).


Yeah, I can't promise those are all him, but it sure seems likely. If they aren't winterwhile, they're impostors...which is just as bad, if not worse.

Incoherent troll posts that look like they were written by a blindfolded monkey aren't worth anyone's time.
 
2012-06-04 01:43:51 AM
So many "christians," so few lions.
 
2012-06-04 02:20:46 AM

proteus_b: Bontesla: The educational gap also falls along socioeconomic status

This, however, is not true.

Bontesla: In other words, the common denominator among "under-performers" is not their blackness but their distinction as being a minority group member.

This is also not true, generically. Some minority group members perform better than the average. An obvious example is Asian-Americans.


Actually, in large asian heavy areas, especially urban ones, asian americans also trend to underperform. See NYC.
 
2012-06-04 03:15:18 AM
Public school sucks. This however won't help those in rural communities that don't have a large private school to send their kids to. I personally am glad that I have to no longer deal with public schools.
 
2012-06-04 03:28:33 AM

Franco: How are these schools supposed to meet the No Child Left Behind standards? Or are they exempt because they are private?


These schools will fall under the new No Child Left Behind When The Rapture Comes standards.
 
2012-06-04 03:30:31 AM

Bigdogdaddy: Public school sucks. This however won't help those in rural communities that don't have a large private school to send their kids to. I personally am glad that I have to no longer deal with public schools.


The answer is obviously to privatize school, rather than improve the public school system.
 
2012-06-04 03:52:54 AM

Mrtraveler01: dickfreckle: At least we have New Orleans, which will always be one of quirkiest, most unique, and wildly social liberal cities in the country.

I love New Orleans too but it seems like once you cross from Orleans Parrish to Jefferson Parrish, the derp turns up just a little and keeps going up the further you get from NOLA.

That or just go across the lake to St. Tammany Parish which seems like derp with money.


Quite true. And that's why I never leave the city unless I need something from a big-box store. And I go to the Westbank, which is not only closer, but somewhat less derptastic. Warning - do not track a Westbank girl into your own home, no matter how cute she is.

Anyway, Jefferson and the Northshore are like any other hamlets of homogenized bullshiat

in America. And hey, that's why I never go to Kenner to eat or get drunk. I don't even like cabbing through the place en route to the airport. But they can never touch New Orleans. We're too infamous, too entrenched in lore and pop culture, and just too farking weird to die.

We'll always be this way. And as long as we are, people seeking refuge from red state BS but fearing the clusterfark of California or the climate of Vermont will always find a home here.

Austin has their "keep Austin weird" slogan to remind people that they're in a red state, and that's great. But New Orleans has been bizarre since any point traceable in history, and she's always gonna belong to us. She's the world's most infamous whore.

/kinda drunk, sorry
 
2012-06-04 03:57:52 AM

dickfreckle: Warning - do not track a Westbank girl into your own home, no matter how cute she is.


I meant to edit this out because it sounds douchey. Westbank girls are OK. It just just seems like I can't cross the farking bridge without some sort of drama that would have been epic, if not for being so stupid.

/dude, they charge you a dollar to leave
//was recently drunk in Algiers; had a blast
 
2012-06-04 04:29:31 AM

HighOnCraic: Hmm, education vouchers for private schools in the South. . . Where have I heard that idea before?

In 1956, the Virginia General Assembly passed a series of laws known as the Stanley plan to implement massive resistance. One of these laws created a program of "tuition grants" which could be given to students so they could attend a private school of their choice. In practice, this meant support of all-white schools that appeared as a response to forced integration, and these newly formed schools became known as the "segregation academies."

When faced with an order to integrate, Prince Edward County closed its entire school system in September 1959 rather than integrate. The county kept its entire school system closed until 1964. Many white students were able to get educated at the newly-created Prince Edward Academy, which operated as the de facto school system, enrolling K-12 students at a number of facilities throughout the county. Even after the re-opening of the public schools, the Academy remained segregated, losing its tax-exempt status in 1978.

Although on January 19, 1959, the Virginia Supreme Court of Appeals struck down the linchpin of the Massive Resistance laws, the one closing schools about to be integrated,[9] individual state tuition grants to parents allowed them to fund the segregation academies. It was not until 1964 that the U.S. Supreme Court outlawed Virginia's tuition grants to private education where the public schools had been closed, such as in Prince Edward County.[10]

Link


----------------------------

This can't be...the free market never does anything wrong!

All this voucher system stuff does is complicate the education system and loosen regulations. And while it is conservative mantra that all regulation is the devil, it is of utmost national importance that every child gets some level of basic education. Charters do nothing but make that standard much more difficult to enforce.
 
2012-06-04 05:03:15 AM

dickfreckle: We're . . . too farking weird to die.


Until the city is finally engulfed by a combination of rising oceans and unfortunately-aimed hurricanes. Everything dies, even hedonists.
 
2012-06-04 06:03:30 AM

James F. Campbell: dickfreckle: We're . . . too farking weird to die.

Until the city is finally engulfed by a combination of rising oceans and unfortunately-aimed hurricanes. Everything dies, even hedonists.


True. Please allow to veer off-course for a moment:

Does anyone in this room believe that the victims of the eventual San Andrea's fiasco will be painted solely by the actions of the cities' most desperate citizens? Does anyone believe that there won't be another Heineken guy? The chief rub among New Orleanians is that the media ran a bullsh*t narrative while ignoring the fact the mass exodus' plight. We were left with dicks in breezes while the nation was fascinated by the sort of drama that would happen in your major city, provided it was plunged in chaos.

But I still can't imagine anyone not being in favor of rebuilding California.

More to the point, will anyone
 
2012-06-04 06:05:48 AM
NEwsflash - I'm too drunk to operate this newfangled lapamotop.

I will shut up now.

/goddammitsomuch
 
2012-06-04 07:43:04 AM

dickfreckle: NEwsflash - I'm too drunk to operate this newfangled lapamotop.


Well, it's only Monday morning.
 
2012-06-04 07:46:43 AM

masterone41: DC public schools are spending about $24,600 per pupil this school year - roughly $10,000 more than the average for area private schools.


But they aren't spending it on the students. Because DC feels itself saddled with the needs of both a state and a local school board, they are incredibly administration heavy. This does not excuse their poor performance, but it does explain the anomaly vis a vis spending.

Or were you just trying to score "points" in some meaningless game instead of trying to understand?
 
2012-06-04 07:47:52 AM
God Bless Amercia
 
2012-06-04 07:51:38 AM

Rann Xerox: The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.

Chemistry done in biblical verses??? WTF??? They must have f*cked up the symbols of the Periodic Table.

"Tommy? What is the Periodic Table symbol for oxygen?"
"John 3:16, teacher."
"Very good, Tommy."


Well liberals should be thrilled that theyre allowing parents to use vouchers at schools like this: after a few years of having the worst voucher system, La can go back to having some of the worst public systems.

Either way, Louisiana is never a good incubator for national ideas, it goes its own way...
 
2012-06-04 07:55:19 AM

Waxing_Chewbacca: Step 2: Raise a generations of morons who rail against the federal government

Step 3: collect money from the same federal government in ammounts exponentially higher than what you pay in federal taxes.


Theyre already well on their way...


We've already reached step 3 and its Democrats, not Repubs who built that system, as a machine for getting votes.

Most people get way more from Medicare than they put in.
 
2012-06-04 08:25:19 AM

James F. Campbell: dickfreckle: NEwsflash - I'm too drunk to operate this newfangled lapamotop.

Well, it's only Monday morning.


"In these trying economic times" I took a night gig tending bar two nights per. Made $275 and dry-humped a cocktail waitress.

Sometimes life sucks. Sometimes it shines a turd to an emerald. I mean, $275 just to sling martinis and car bombs? The only down side is that I have to show up Tuesday to my "legit" job and somehow justify it.

/off to bed
 
2012-06-04 08:50:35 AM

Weaver95: DrewCurtisJr: Weaver95: what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so?

It can be less expensive, provide a better education, and gives parents a choice in how their kids are educated.

but would it be less expensive and provide a better education? most conservatives don't seem to care about verifying that private companies are held accountable to consumers. institutionally speaking, the GOP seems unable to admit that private companies need to be watched just as closely as public unions...


You only have to look at how for-profit colleges are doing to see where this might lead. Terrible graduation and retention rates. Low student loan repayment rates. And the Republicans actively preventing for-profit schools being regulated.
 
2012-06-04 09:04:30 AM

dickfreckle: James F. Campbell: dickfreckle: NEwsflash - I'm too drunk to operate this newfangled lapamotop.

Well, it's only Monday morning.

"In these trying economic times" I took a night gig tending bar two nights per. Made $275 and dry-humped a cocktail waitress.

Sometimes life sucks. Sometimes it shines a turd to an emerald. I mean, $275 just to sling martinis and car bombs? The only down side is that I have to show up Tuesday to my "legit" job and somehow justify it.

/off to bed


You sir are living the dream.
 
2012-06-04 09:08:04 AM
Wouldn't that mean that these private schools are being subsidized with taxpayer money. So it still is public education but in this case the system is designed for profit and a specialized indoctrination? How is this better?
 
2012-06-04 09:42:25 AM

elffster: Bontesla: elffster: proteus_b: clambam: I know I was meaning to put you on Ignore and this kind of post reminds me of why. Bing! Adios, asshole.

I guess it's too late, but just so everyone else knows, Ignore lists are the tool that libs use to keep God out of their brains.

If you are serious, then you are also a misguided dildo.

How can anyone say that and not be a retard?

Do you have a picture of what a misguided dildo may look like?



Breitbart.


Well, then I greatly appreciate you not posting the picture.
 
2012-06-04 09:50:30 AM

abb3w: Bontesla: While I have not done ANY research on this . . . I suspect that Republicans are more homogenous and Democrats are more heterogeneous. So, Republicans may not be more religious - they may be simply more in consensus. It's easy to legislate when everyone on your aside agrees.

Not sure what sense of "homogenous" you're using here; probably racial? Whacking the GSS, the relation looks a little more complicated.

The foremost trend is that blacks lean democratic. (Massively, such that any other trend is hard to detect with the sample sizes and fraction of US that's black.) Among whites, those who identify more strongly as religious, tend to identify more strongly with whatever their party is; but the more religious tend disproportionately more republican.


Sorry, I should have clarified. I was using homogenous to refer to values and beliefs although they do tend to run racially similar. So, for example, I would expect fundamentalism to be more prevalent among Republicans than Democrats.

The Republicans appear more similar to one another and the Democrats appear more diverse.

/I hope that makes sense. I haven't had coffee yet.
// thank you for TF!!
 
2012-06-04 09:54:24 AM

wheelofpain: Good schools require money, and they get it through property taxes or tuition. There is no free lunch. If you want to go to a good school, you have to make sacrifices. Parents who care will do this, those who don't won't.

Sorry if I am not sympathetic to kids with neglectful parents, but if they don't see or impart the value of education onto their kids, it's wasteful to hand it out for free.


Okay, so even if your assumptions were right (and they're not), your conclusions do not make sense.

Person A does something you disagree with so you punish Person C.

Still not getting it? Person A neglects Person C so your solution is to further neglect Person C.

Brilliant.
 
2012-06-04 09:58:35 AM

bigsteve3OOO: All one has to do is compare the {graduation rates/ teacher salaries/ administration costs} to realize that public education is an absolute and complete failure. Perhaps another solution is needed as the public unions are unwilling to change the current system.


The current education system works perfectly at doing what it was designed to do: prepare students for blue collar careers.

Before we charge the US government with a failure to educate, perhaps we should first design and implement a learning-based educational system.
 
2012-06-04 10:31:11 AM

TV's Vinnie: shpritz: Weaver95:
i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?

I reckon "Government=BAD" dogma is the official line.

Seeing as how "the government" has thwarted conservatives on everything from legal slavery to Jim Crow, it's no wonder why they hate those meddling kids the federal government so much.

And yes, I am fully expecting the day to arrive when some dickslap on Fox News is going to bring up the subject of bringing back slavery. We already live in these unthinkable times where domestic surveillance and even torture has been made legal. I'm sure that slope has been well lubricated with loads of WD-40 by now and someone's gonna say "Hey! Instead of giving them welfare, why don't we just put chains on all these deadbeat n*ggers and sell them?".


Last year the talking point for a couple weeks was that only landowners with X acres should be able to vote, since "they're the only one's with skin in the game." In the span of about a week I heard the teabagger say that, so I started listening to some AM windbags. Heard it from Limbaugh and Levin, then I saw it on FOX when I went to visit the folks. Unthinkable times is right. This is the stuff we've been working away from for 200 years. Now we've suddenly got a massive propaganda machine fooling almost half of us into wanting to go back to these times we've fought so hard to break away from.
 
2012-06-04 02:37:49 PM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: TV's Vinnie: shpritz: Weaver95:
i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?

I reckon "Government=BAD" dogma is the official line.

Seeing as how "the government" has thwarted conservatives on everything from legal slavery to Jim Crow, it's no wonder why they hate those meddling kids the federal government so much.

And yes, I am fully expecting the day to arrive when some dickslap on Fox News is going to bring up the subject of bringing back slavery. We already live in these unthinkable times where domestic surveillance and even torture has been made legal. I'm sure that slope has been well lubricated with loads of WD-40 by now and someone's gonna say "Hey! Instead of giving them welfare, why don't we just put chains on all these deadbeat n*ggers and sell them?".

Last year the talking point for a couple weeks was that only landowners with X acres should be able to vote, since "they're the only one's with skin in the game." In the span of about a week I heard the teabagger say that, so I started listening to some AM windbags. Heard it from Limbaugh and Levin, then I saw it on FOX when I went to visit the folks. Unthinkable times is right. This is the stuff we've been working away from for 200 years. Now we've suddenly got a massive propaganda machine fooling almost half of us into wanting to go back to these times we've fought so hard to break away from.


That's been a talking point for conservatives since the 90s. It pops up again every election year.
 
2012-06-04 03:09:29 PM
Church? Maybe. I'm more afraid of the corporate schools that will be teaching about Bolognium...in between meat processing and other student activities
 
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