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(Reuters)   Louisiana defends privatization of education, and by "privatization of education" they really mean sending your kid to Sunday School 5 days per week where she will learn to count to potato in a windowless church bunker   (reuters.com) divider line 482
    More: Asinine, Sunday School, parochial schools, superintendent of schools, private schools, buyer beware, religious education, online school  
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5283 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Jun 2012 at 9:30 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-03 11:40:42 AM

BarkingUnicorn: Curious: i was ask the other day why should parents with kids in private schools have to pay for public schools.

Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?


Because they rely on having an educated populace to raise the overall standard of living.
 
2012-06-03 11:40:54 AM

BarkingUnicorn: Curious: i was ask the other day why should parents with kids in private schools have to pay for public schools.

Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?


So... Maybe all adults should get an equal education credit derived from the school district taxes and be allowed to spend it on whatever form of education they desire. Then a couple can spend it on a better school, a childless person could further their education or take Salsa lessons, and single parents would be farked because this is GOP talk after all.
 
2012-06-03 11:42:17 AM

jim-jim: Lemme get this straight:
funneling tax dollars into a solar energy firm- bad.
Funneling tax dollars into a windowless Christian school- good.


Which is why in America, our politicians will compromise, and they will build a window-less Christian school where SI is ignored in favor of cubits [and pi is 3] but cover the school in solar panels. Electric buses will be purchased and the school guarded by millions of dollars worth of imaging material and plenty of police officers. Both D's and R's will be happy as they will be able to funnel to money to their supporters, and the curriculum of the school and performance of the students will be an afterthought.
 
2012-06-03 11:42:32 AM
How are these schools supposed to meet the No Child Left Behind standards? Or are they exempt because they are private?
 
2012-06-03 11:44:04 AM

Franco: How are these schools supposed to meet the No Child Left Behind standards? Or are they exempt because they are private?


They are exempt. They are exempt from all state and federal testing.
 
2012-06-03 11:45:56 AM
fark it. I don't even care anymore. Less competition for my job in the future. We will continue raising a generation of retards. The only drawback is the lack of educated people to care for me when I'm older. However, I have a contingency plan. My job affords me access to Morphine, and when the time is right, a large IM bolus should do the trick.
 
2012-06-03 11:48:02 AM

theteacher: They are exempt. They are exempt from all state and federal testing.


Not for long:

FTA: To date, private schools have not had to give their students state standardized tests, so there's no straightforward way for parents to judge their performance. Starting next year, any student on a voucher will have to take the tests; each private school must report individual results to parents and aggregate results to the state.
 
2012-06-03 11:48:03 AM
Until America accepts that stand and deliver is not the only pedagogical model out there, school choice is pretty much a joke.
 
2012-06-03 11:49:24 AM

DrewCurtisJr: BarkingUnicorn: I suspect that most achievement differences are due to the fact that private schools can cherry-pick their students while public schools must accept all.

Only very poor students are eligible for vouchers and private schools that participate in the school choice program.


How exactly does that diminish anything he just said?
 
2012-06-03 11:50:00 AM
Yeah if there is anything this country needs to be successful in the new millinium it's get rid of organized health care and education. The next generation should be wildly successful without those twin albatrosses around their collective necks.
 
2012-06-03 11:52:25 AM

TheShavingofOccam123: This is what US corporations used to do to third world countries. They would get into tremendous debt and the corporation would say "We can make it all better if you let us privatize your water supply or your energy supply." Then corporations would make a killing while tripling the price of water to poor people who couldn't afford water to begin with.

At least now we know what rich people in this country think of us. We're third world and we need to be exploited until we bleed.


I see you've read Confessions of an Economic Hitman.
 
2012-06-03 11:52:35 AM

meat0918: BarkingUnicorn: Curious: i was ask the other day why should parents with kids in private schools have to pay for public schools.

Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?

Because they rely on having an educated populace to raise the overall standard of living.


And all that goes pretty much out the window with Louisiana, huh?:)
 
2012-06-03 11:55:25 AM

Fart_Machine: How exactly does that diminish anything he just said?


The schools aren't exactly "cherry picking" from the best batch of cherries. And besides schools in the school choice program must accept all students and if there are more applications than slots open they must choose students are random.
 
2012-06-03 11:58:03 AM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."


20 years ago, we did just that. Now, we're saying to Louisiana, "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Mississippi."

Or, in other words, we failed.
 
2012-06-03 11:59:27 AM

DrewCurtisJr: Fart_Machine: How exactly does that diminish anything he just said?

The schools aren't exactly "cherry picking" from the best batch of cherries. And besides schools in the school choice program must accept all students and if there are more applications than slots open they must choose students are random.


What about when students don't meet certain behavioral and/or academic standards once they attend? And when those students are exited, how are they counted?

Also, what are the mobility statistics like for those schools?

And while we're at it, what are the percentages of second language learners in them?

And heck, let's throw in what the Free and Reduced lunch rate is while we're at it.
 
2012-06-03 12:00:55 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?


I have no problem with childless people not paying for public schools.

As long as they're willing to give up all the benefits of publicly-funded medical care and scientific research, the FDA, the EPA, infrastructure, police, firefighters, pretty much every government service that requires a bunch of people with at least high school diplomas to provide -which is everything.
 
2012-06-03 12:00:57 PM

DrewCurtisJr: theteacher: They are exempt. They are exempt from all state and federal testing.

Not for long:

FTA: To date, private schools have not had to give their students state standardized tests, so there's no straightforward way for parents to judge their performance. Starting next year, any student on a voucher will have to take the tests; each private school must report individual results to parents and aggregate results to the state.


That's only state testing. NCLB standards wouldn't technically be applicable because private schools don't receive federal education monies. And those standards - as flawed as some may be - go far beyond mere standardized testing. They're also not beholden to the requirements of the IDEA.
 
2012-06-03 12:02:14 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Fart_Machine: How exactly does that diminish anything he just said?

The schools aren't exactly "cherry picking" from the best batch of cherries. And besides schools in the school choice program must accept all students and if there are more applications than slots open they must choose students are random.


Charters have ways around this. They might have to accept kids, but they are permitted to kick them out FAR more easily than a regular public school. Every spring in my city public school we'd have a massive influx of students who had been kicked out of their charters and had to return to their neighborhood city schools, sometimes for the most incredibly stupid reasons. One of the charters around here doesn't even have to accept students with multiple disabilities next school year because they're whining that it's "too expensive" to maintain a classroom for them.
 
2012-06-03 12:02:54 PM

proteus_b: Fart_Machine: You just can't facepalm hard enough here. It was illegal to teach slaves to read and write. Douglass was an escaped slave who never would have been permitted to do either while he was in the South.

It's possible to facepalm. Yes, it was illegal to educate slaves, but this was hundreds of years ago. Has black performance in school monotonically improved in the years following 1865, indicating that "it simply hasn't been long enough yet", or has black performance in school collapsed following the civil rights movement, along with the traditional black family structure?


You're mistaken if you think that "settled" anything. The educational gap also falls along socioeconomic status. There's also an educational gap among genders In fact, if you take a look at "underachieving group X" compared to achieving group "y", the odds are that group X has a history of holding a minority status in relation to a more dominant group (y).

In other words, the common denominator among "under-performers" is not their blackness but their distinction as being a minority group member.
 
2012-06-03 12:04:22 PM
This is why I'm convinced that public education needs to be handled *entirely* by the feds.

The individual states and municipalities can't be trusted. It's too easy for Bible-thumping idiots to take over local and state school boards, and ruin an entire generation of children. Never mind that local school administrators are some of the most incompetent bureaucrats in government.

At the national level, that kind of craziness doesn't fly At least, not yet.
 
2012-06-03 12:04:54 PM

Rann Xerox: The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.

Chemistry done in biblical verses??? WTF??? They must have f*cked up the symbols of the Periodic Table.

"Tommy? What is the Periodic Table symbol for oxygen?"
"John 3:16, teacher."
"Very good, Tommy."


gOd
 
2012-06-03 12:05:42 PM

The Name: BarkingUnicorn: Why should childless people have to pay for public schools?

I have no problem with childless people not paying for public schools.

As long as they're willing to give up all the benefits of publicly-funded medical care and scientific research, the FDA, the EPA, infrastructure, police, firefighters, pretty much every government service that requires a bunch of people with at least high school diplomas to provide -which is everything.


THIS. I'm getting tired of this "I don't have to pay for something if I don't notice a benefit for it" attitude. A side-effect of the right's war on education is the tunnel-vision caused by linear thinking. Somehow we've thrown the core principle of civilization out the window and replaced it with a mantra that says you are entitled to all the benefits of living in a society and all the freedom-of-choice of living outside of a society.
 
2012-06-03 12:06:32 PM

IlGreven: Don't Troll Me Bro!: We really just need to let a state or two do this. In 20 years we can use them as an example to anyone else. "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Louisiana."

20 years ago, we did just that. Now, we're saying to Louisiana, "Sure, go right ahead, if you want to look like Mississippi."

Or, in other words, we failed.


There's always one or two slow learners in the class. The important thing is that the rest of us doesn't look like Mississippi.
 
2012-06-03 12:06:56 PM

Bontesla: The educational gap also falls along socioeconomic status


This, however, is not true.

Bontesla: In other words, the common denominator among "under-performers" is not their blackness but their distinction as being a minority group member.


This is also not true, generically. Some minority group members perform better than the average. An obvious example is Asian-Americans.
 
2012-06-03 12:07:17 PM

DrewCurtisJr: The schools aren't exactly "cherry picking" from the best batch of cherries. And besides schools in the school choice program must accept all students and if there are more applications than slots open they must choose students are random.


That depends on the state. Many states with school choice programs (and I need to research further, but I'm fairly sure most such states) do not have such a requirement.
 
2012-06-03 12:10:25 PM

Weaver95: Mrtraveler01:
But of course Conservatives wouldn't like that because it conflicts with their true goal of teaching children Conservative orthodoxy in public schools.

i'd at least like to know WHY conservatives believe private run education is better than public schools. what's the advantage of getting rid of the public school system?


Because they are still butt hurt about desegregation and ANY Federal money with strings attached. You know the strings that are so terrible -- here's money for reading programs for elementary schools, no you can't move it to a general fund and use for anything else.

Here's money to help provide medical care for poor kids, you must use it to provide medical care for poor kids -- I'm looking at you FLORIDA!
 
2012-06-03 12:10:30 PM
It's almost as if private businesses care more about making money than anything else.
 
2012-06-03 12:10:38 PM

Salt Lick Steady: DrewCurtisJr: The schools aren't exactly "cherry picking" from the best batch of cherries. And besides schools in the school choice program must accept all students and if there are more applications than slots open they must choose students are random.

That depends on the state. Many states with school choice programs (and I need to research further, but I'm fairly sure most such states) do not have such a requirement.


I should clarify; when it comes to private schools in the school choice program there is generally no such requirement. Charter schools are public schools, and so generally they do have such a requirement.
 
2012-06-03 12:10:51 PM

proteus_b: Bontesla: The educational gap also falls along socioeconomic status

This, however, is not true.


Education Gap Grows Between Rich and Poor, Studies Say
 
2012-06-03 12:11:47 PM

proteus_b: Bontesla: The educational gap also falls along socioeconomic status

This, however, is not true.


Wut?
 
2012-06-03 12:12:29 PM

Garble: It's almost as if private businesses care more about making money than anything else.


I know right?

And these are the kind of people we want running our schools?
 
2012-06-03 12:13:45 PM

Fart_Machine: Education Gap Grows Between Rich and Poor, Studies Say


I'm not claiming that that gap doesn't exist. I'm claiming that middle-income blacks perform similarly to and worse than lower-income whites. Therefore income and wealth alone are not likely responsible for the black-white gap (I'm not talking about the rich-poor gap, nor denying its obvious existence). I'm also not really talking about the causes of this gap---merely pointing out its existence and nature.
 
2012-06-03 12:15:16 PM

realmolo: This is why I'm convinced that public education needs to be handled *entirely* by the feds.

The individual states and municipalities can't be trusted. It's too easy for Bible-thumping idiots to take over local and state school boards, and ruin an entire generation of children. Never mind that local school administrators are some of the most incompetent bureaucrats in government.

At the national level, that kind of craziness doesn't fly At least, not yet.


If it's left up to the local districts, the biblefarkers have to infiltrate every local district in the country. If it's left up to the feds alone, the biblefarkers just have to get 51% of the federal government. It's a much more unstable situation. Federal mandates for one-size-fits-all directives (e.g. "no bible-based anything") while leaving the particulars up to the local districts is safer and allows for innovation. The side-effect of fundies infiltrating and establishing Christian Sharia where they can is unfortunate but unavoidable as long as we continue to pretend these religious whack-jobs are anything but cultists.
 
2012-06-03 12:15:38 PM
So basically the folks who hate welfare want to raise a bunch of kids who will end up on welfare.

I'll say it again, just for posterity. All this ass-backwards sh*t happening in red states will lead to the almost total erosion of states rights, in all but the most token bits. When you have states full of poor, uneducated folk unqualified to do anything but unskilled labor, labor which is being further and further automated so as to not need these folks' labor, and state governments cut down and privatized, you will be left with a situation wherein the federal government will have to step in, the rest of us will have to pay more in income taxes and then the US government will dictate heavy stipulations to these states which have tried to disabuse themselves of the very concept of democratic governance. The reactionary rhetoric and policies are only serving to usher in the top-heavy, directive federal government the rubes on the right seek to avoid.
 
2012-06-03 12:17:28 PM
Waiting for Superman

Bureaucracy and teacher unions are killing the school system.
 
2012-06-03 12:19:44 PM

MugzyBrown: Waiting for Superman

Bureaucracy and teacher unions are killing the school system.


How so?
 
2012-06-03 12:19:51 PM

John Dewey: What about when students don't meet certain behavioral and/or academic standards once they attend? And when those students are exited, how are they counted?

Also, what are the mobility statistics like for those schools?

And while we're at it, what are the percentages of second language learners in them?

And heck, let's throw in what the Free and Reduced lunch rate is while we're at it.


If you really want to know, and aren't just looking for excuses to dismiss any evidence that doesn't support your position, you can look it up here.
 
2012-06-03 12:20:12 PM

Mrtraveler01: Garble: It's almost as if private businesses care more about making money than anything else.

I know right?

And these are the kind of people we want running our schools?


In all fairness, I do send my kid to a private, secular school. I would gladly change this if our society took public education more seriously.
 
2012-06-03 12:20:26 PM

Sabyen91: This, however, is not true.


Sorry, I believed that he meant "the black-white gap is explained solely by socio-economic status". Obviously the "rich poor gap" does fall along socio-economic status, with rich kids performing better than poor ones.
 
2012-06-03 12:22:01 PM

MugzyBrown: Waiting for Superman

Bureaucracy and teacher unions are killing the school system.


Yes.

That's why schools with weak teacher unions like Mississippi perform better than schools with stronger teach unions like in New Jersey and Massachusetts.

Oh wait...
 
2012-06-03 12:22:18 PM
This won't be spectacularly abused by accept-my-version-of-Jesus proselytizers, greed-is-good sociopaths, and straight-up grifters at all.
 
2012-06-03 12:23:25 PM

Portia: DrewCurtisJr: Fart_Machine: How exactly does that diminish anything he just said?

The schools aren't exactly "cherry picking" from the best batch of cherries. And besides schools in the school choice program must accept all students and if there are more applications than slots open they must choose students are random.

Charters have ways around this. They might have to accept kids, but they are permitted to kick them out FAR more easily than a regular public school. Every spring in my city public school we'd have a massive influx of students who had been kicked out of their charters and had to return to their neighborhood city schools, sometimes for the most incredibly stupid reasons. One of the charters around here doesn't even have to accept students with multiple disabilities next school year because they're whining that it's "too expensive" to maintain a classroom for them.


Excellent point.

My daughter went to a very good Catholic academy (we are not religious and the school was very philosophical about religious education), but we had to pay for speech services for her lisp. When my sons were of school age, we were told not to have them attend, as one of them has some behavior/academic issues. We lucked out in being in the best elementary district in Chicago, and the school was fantastic.

The mental image of kids being stuck in a windlowless room forced to watch religious DVDs all day will haunt me forever. I agree it's child abuse.

Maybe we should open a FSM academy and get some voucher kids. We'll sue if not allowed to operate, then donate the proceeds to the public schools.
 
2012-06-03 12:23:44 PM

proteus_b: Sabyen91: This, however, is not true.

Sorry, I believed that he meant "the black-white gap is explained solely by socio-economic status". Obviously the "rich poor gap" does fall along socio-economic status, with rich kids performing better than poor ones.


This is what every parent who wants their kids to end up a welfare-dependent adult believes.
 
2012-06-03 12:25:20 PM

MugzyBrown: Waiting for Superman

Bureaucracy and teacher unions are killing the school system.


^ Meant to quote this one right here.


Sorry, I believed that he meant "the black-white gap is explained solely by socio-economic status". Obviously the "rich poor gap" does fall along socio-economic status, with rich kids performing better than poor ones.

This is what every parent who wants their kids to end up a welfare-dependent adult believes.
 
2012-06-03 12:26:41 PM

proteus_b: Fart_Machine: Education Gap Grows Between Rich and Poor, Studies Say

I'm not claiming that that gap doesn't exist. I'm claiming that middle-income blacks perform similarly to and worse than lower-income whites. Therefore income and wealth alone are not likely responsible for the black-white gap (I'm not talking about the rich-poor gap, nor denying its obvious existence). I'm also not really talking about the causes of this gap---merely pointing out its existence and nature.


According to the studies in the article, the gap between black and white students has significantly narrowed. Between differences in income is where the real gap is.
 
2012-06-03 12:28:05 PM
The Republicans here in Utah tried that shiat a couple of years ago. Actually got a bill passed but the citizens organized a petition drive to throw it out. Ever since that happened they have been trying end runs on the same concept. Assholes, both the politicians and the voters that keep them in office.
 
2012-06-03 12:29:46 PM

DrewCurtisJr: John Dewey: What about when students don't meet certain behavioral and/or academic standards once they attend? And when those students are exited, how are they counted?

Also, what are the mobility statistics like for those schools?

And while we're at it, what are the percentages of second language learners in them?

And heck, let's throw in what the Free and Reduced lunch rate is while we're at it.

If you really want to know, and aren't just looking for excuses to dismiss any evidence that doesn't support your position, you can look it up here.


I have yet to find any of my questions answered in those docs after perusing through four of them.

I will say, however, that I did find something quite significant that I have been advocating for for quite a few years: MPCP schools on average were half the size of MPS schools. I think that is a significant lesson that should not be overlooked. Among other things, I believe further study might show that will account for the fact that while MPCP teachers are less likely to be licensed and have a master's degree, they still perform equally with their MPS counterparts.
 
2012-06-03 12:31:10 PM
It's as though so many Americans are uneducated about how a public school system works, and there is a political party actively trying to prevent them from learning this, so voters believe that you can just privatize the whole thing and somehow robber barons won't rig the whole market for their favor and at the expense of the consumer - or in this case, the student.

So odd.
 
2012-06-03 12:31:17 PM

Weaver95: NetOwl: These religious "schools" are child abuse.

Most stupid Republican ideas are just bad, but this will ruin thousands of kids' lives. Denying a kid education destroys the kid at the most fundamental level. It's sick.

well...done well, I don't have any philosophical objection to a religious based education - it CAN work, if done right.

what I don't understand tho is the desire to outsource public education. what advantage is there for doing so? how can we be sure that a private company can do the job better? how do we even measure 'better'? what choices will poor kids be given under this new system of education, and how will it be paid for?


It's based on "infallible market" doctrine. Competition must make everything better, always. Never mind that competition can in fact lead to forms of inefficiency and perverse incentives where and when applied inappropriately. Never mind that where vouchers have been tried, as in Washington DC, they haven't improved educational outcomes.
 
2012-06-03 12:32:00 PM

Portia: Charters have ways around this. They might have to accept kids, but they are permitted to kick them out FAR more easily than a regular public school.


Then the students can attend another school with their vouchers, they don't necessary have to go to back to public school.
 
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