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(LA Times)   California would need a $68 billion bullet train to move all the environmental lawyers trying to stop the project   (latimes.com) divider line 140
    More: Interesting, environmental legislation, California, Madera County, California High-Speed Rail Authority, Orange County Transportation Authority, Sacramento County Superior Court, Orange County, high-speed trains  
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4496 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Jun 2012 at 5:23 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-02 06:54:56 PM
Good to see California is handling it's budget deficit so well.
 
2012-06-02 06:55:11 PM

hstein3: Ima4nic8or: This just reinforces what I have said for years. Environmental study and reporting requirements are non-value added fluff. The only purpose they ever serve is a as a mechanism for someone with ax to grind to derail construction projects. Its ironic that now such suits are being used to stop something that on balance would probably benefit the environment by reducing car miles traveled. The farmers have caught on to the enviro-weenies tactics.

You know, it's exactly that reason why we don't have anymore "grand projects." I always see people write stuff like, "Why don't we have any more Hoover Dams or Empire State Buildings? We built those in months!" Because I'm betting they didn't have a swarm of "environmental advocacy" groups waiting to swoop in and file a law suit claiming the construction would displace smelt herders.


A lot of those same people will also complain that the WTC is still a hole in the ground and the real terrorists are the lawyers, without realizing that it's already 70% built (I believe, number might be a bit off). But I do agree, would ANY freeways have been built with all of the environmental lawsuits now? Would all of California still be a land of rural backwater hicks, instead of just most of it? Would the US GDP have been anywhere near what it has been for the last century if the highways (and thus cities) here had never been allowed?

Cubansaltyballs: Nice. Central Valley farmers...

If you've driven I-5 lately, you'll notice that since Republicans took the House, the signs changed from "Stop the C0ngress Created Dustbowl" to "Stop the Dem0crat Created Dustbowl."


So yeah,... Central Valley farmers are dumber than Snooki after huffing paint.


Most of the central valley is owned by massive multinational agribusiness conglomerates who heavily fund Republican/Tea Party candidates, so of course they with lie, cheat, and steal in their political campaigning. They do have a bit of a point, but they would prefer that in dry years they get all the water they need to protect profits, even if it dries up all of the cities and lakebeds. It's not like the billionaire owners have to care. The few independent farmers are your typical salt of the earth, and even they're pretty well to do, so it's no surprise they buy into it as well.
 
2012-06-02 06:56:16 PM

beta_plus: The spend far less on their roads as a result of paying the contractor with the tolls from the highway.


Care to prove that?
 
2012-06-02 06:56:17 PM

STRYPERSWINE: So lad I left that flush with cash state.


Only a lad? Well good riddance, it's becoming an Asian sausage-fest in my area.
 
2012-06-02 06:57:11 PM
hard to see how this wasn't all but impossible after the last 40 years of prolific property value and population increases. should have done it in the 1970's or 80's. they actually tried in the 1980's, but apparently environmentalists and nimby cities squashed it? private industry wanted a piece of it back in the early1980's, but now shop little interest in the development
the capital outlays are so much larger now, it's gotta be close to financially impossible to recoup the costs at this point.
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/10/30-lost-years/
 
2012-06-02 06:57:36 PM

foxyshadis: . But I do agree, would ANY freeways have been built with all of the environmental lawsuits now?


NIMBYs are a far bigger problem.
 
2012-06-02 07:03:46 PM

Tellingthem: Bullet trains are not bad but this plan was. That is the big difference. People were told a whole lot of BS so that they would vote for it. And then as more and more reports of all the bad numbers they used to sell it came out people got angry for being lied too. I have zero problems with high-speed rail. I have lots of problems for projects that lie their ass off in order to get it approved. And then drop the "oops we may have made a mistake so we need lots more money to continue working" line. And also maybe we should probably figure out how to get a train to go from LA to San Fransisco first.


So far nearly all of the cost overruns come from the legal fees to fight lawsuits and the fact that everyone even remotely involved threatens to hold it up unless the route is realigned to their constituency. So of course every time the route changes new studies have to be done in accordance with the law, land grabs negotiated, stations designed, and so on, that's why the cost keeps going up every year.

The project lacks a leader and a vision because California government is a bunch of whiny squabbling babies all fighting over the ball while the state falls apart from auto-asphyxiation. Even Jerry Brown can't work his old steamrolling magic because no one can even get a majority of the assembly & senate to even agree that the sky is blue, and it's a small portrait of the whole me me me attitude of the entire country. What is the benefit to me is the only metric anything is judged on anymore, even if it would tremendously benefit your neighbor and increase the tax base.
 
2012-06-02 07:04:38 PM

NateAsbestos: I live in Bakersfield. Please... someone kill me.


I do too. Have you heard the talk about where the tracks would actually go? They want to plow through the middle of downtown and go through the BHS campus.

This plan will require a rail line through the Tejon Pass. Given this and the assorted objections to HSR, I think it would be a much wiser plan to simply cut a path through the pass and lay standard track from Bakersfield to Los Angeles. It would be much cheaper and obviate the need for people to switch from trains to buses when traveling between these two points.
 
2012-06-02 07:06:01 PM
WhyteRaven74:
Actually it depends, do you consider yourself in the hole when it starts operation or do you consider yourself at $0.

You consider yourself in the hole. That money has to come from somewhere, and you have to be a complete moron to even consider pretending that a $100 billion project didn't cost anything to build.

Please explain how high speed rail is a left vs right issue.

Because almost all of the people who want to build this white elephant are Democrats, and almost all of the people who keep showing them what a bad idea it is are Republicans.

The fact that even the hard-left LA Weekly has finally noticed what a bad idea this is should be a HUGE hint of just how mind-bogglingly bad it is. We've known for at least a couple of years that it would never make its completely insane ridership predictions, and anyone who's ever paid attention to government projects knows that the initial $40 billion estimate (from last year) wasn't going to pan out.
 
2012-06-02 07:08:28 PM

WhyteRaven74: foxyshadis: . But I do agree, would ANY freeways have been built with all of the environmental lawsuits now?

NIMBYs are a far bigger problem.


can you even effectively be a nimby without the environmental red tape at your disposal at this point? aren't you essentially left with suing for nuisance damages after the shiat is completed without the environmental private enforcement laws that allow citizens to sue and delay construction on behalf of the state government prior to any development at all? I can't remember if California has that mechanism, but I'd be very surprised if they don't.
 
2012-06-02 07:09:46 PM

WhyteRaven74: foxyshadis: . But I do agree, would ANY freeways have been built with all of the environmental lawsuits now?

NIMBYs are a far bigger problem.


Most environmental lawsuits are filed and fought by NIMBYs, with a little input from big greenies on the coast. NIMBYs almost always use the courts to fight change now, all over the country, and environmental law is the easiest way to entangle a project to the max; that way you don't have to deal with changing anyone's opinion but the judge's, and it can be filed in the court of one of the known green judges.

/Happy to be an environmentalist, but that ship sailed a very long time ago in the valley. Factory farms are not scrub wetlands, people.
 
2012-06-02 07:10:26 PM

LaughingRadish: NateAsbestos: I live in Bakersfield. Please... someone kill me.

I do too. Have you heard the talk about where the tracks would actually go? They want to plow through the middle of downtown and go through the BHS campus.

This plan will require a rail line through the Tejon Pass. Given this and the assorted objections to HSR, I think it would be a much wiser plan to simply cut a path through the pass and lay standard track from Bakersfield to Los Angeles. It would be much cheaper and obviate the need for people to switch from trains to buses when traveling between these two points.


I hadn't heard that. That is some terrible placement
 
2012-06-02 07:11:20 PM

yteRaven74

Gdalescrboz: you ever wonder why conservatives refuse to negotiate on economic policy with you? St

Because conservatives demonstrate such facility for economic policy.


Texas seems to be doing something right. And as we all know here on Fark, Texas is full of a bunch of dumbass redneck conservatives who can't grasp the simplest of things let alone economics
 
2012-06-02 07:12:08 PM
foxyshadis:
So far nearly all of the cost overruns come from the legal fees to fight lawsuits

So the cost increase from $40 billion (last year) to $68 billion (this year) are from TWENTY-EIGHT BILLION DOLLARS in legal fees?

That's just goofy.

The "cost overruns" came, as they always do, from some government bureaucrat who picked a lowball figure that they thought they could get away with (that people voted on), and the current lowball $68 billion comes from people noticing that they didn't do the math right the first time.

By this time next year, the lowball $100 billion that they'll admit to will include more of the land purchases and hardware that they "forgot" to put in the original estimate, plus the interest from borrowing the cash in the first place.
 
2012-06-02 07:13:37 PM

Gdalescrboz: Texas seems to be doing something right


Actually it doesn't seem to be doing much of anything right. Unless you happen to like minimum wage jobs.
 
2012-06-02 07:15:43 PM

crotchgrabber: Man, I love the California hate threads.


Yeah, funny how the fact that California's input into the federal treasury props up the red welfare states is always conveniently ignored. Honestly, I really wish California would say "fark you" to the other 49 states and leave. Get your welfare payments from someplace else.

Oh and by the way, I detest the bullet train idea and am not a conservative.
 
2012-06-02 07:16:26 PM

Cubansaltyballs: Nice. Central Valley farmers...

If you've driven I-5 lately, you'll notice that since Republicans took the House, the signs changed from "Stop the C0ngress Created Dustbowl" to "Stop the Dem0crat Created Dustbowl."


So yeah,... Central Valley farmers are dumber than Snooki after huffing paint.


I root against anything the Valley wants because the people from there are an utter blight to the state, not really based on any practical reason. Those flat-billed hat wearing, lifted-truck driving, faux-Southern douchebags can go fark themselves. They come through this area every goddamn weekend on their way to Pismo and the dunes - bunch of loud, littering, rude retards.
 
2012-06-02 07:17:00 PM

LaughingRadish: NateAsbestos: I live in Bakersfield. Please... someone kill me.

I do too. Have you heard the talk about where the tracks would actually go? They want to plow through the middle of downtown and go through the BHS campus.

This plan will require a rail line through the Tejon Pass. Given this and the assorted objections to HSR, I think it would be a much wiser plan to simply cut a path through the pass and lay standard track from Bakersfield to Los Angeles. It would be much cheaper and obviate the need for people to switch from trains to buses when traveling between these two points.


As long as you're building in the middle of nowhere anyway, it's always better to go big from the start. Build the high speed rail and then put the Amtrak on it, with connections to Phoenix and Las Vegas, and we'll see what we could really expect from high speed rail. Amtrak is reasonably fast anyway when it's not behind a freight train - 80 mph or so max - with no stops except at Magic Mountain and Burbank it's not like it would take any longer than driving. If the project gets abandoned halfway into construction, at least make it possible to link into the existing Santa Fe lines for Amtrak riders to get some benefit out of it.

Pragmatic engineering will lose out to grandiose failure, though, just like the Bay Bridge.
 
2012-06-02 07:20:41 PM
CrotchgrabberStay out of the Sierras. Go to Big Bear or Mt. San Jacinto. The sensible people who live here don't want you or your HSR boondoggle. California can't afford it, and the Feds aren't going to pay for it, either.
 
2012-06-02 07:21:21 PM
WhyteRaven74:
Actually it doesn't seem to be doing much of anything right. Unless you happen to like minimum wage jobs.

Except, of course, that 3/4 of the jobs created in Texas (1 million in the last ten years) are paid better than minimum wage - only a quarter of Texas' new jobs are at or below minimum wage.

You should also note that service jobs like waiters and bartenders fall under that "at or below minimum wage" level - and they tend to make a lot more than that in actual wages in a growing economy.
 
2012-06-02 07:24:21 PM

ambercricket: crotchgrabber: Man, I love the California hate threads.

Yeah, funny how the fact that California's input into the federal treasury props up the red welfare states is always conveniently ignored. Honestly, I really wish California would say "fark you" to the other 49 states and leave. Get your welfare payments from someplace else.

Oh and by the way, I detest the bullet train idea and am not a conservative.


you aren't paying jackshiat to the state; you're paying it to old people and poor women and children almost exclusively. got to love when pho-progressives get their panties in a wad when asked to actually pay for the national social programs they demand. and I can't imagine someone as ignorant as you is paying much at all if anything in any event.
 
2012-06-02 07:24:46 PM

Cubansaltyballs: Nice. Central Valley farmers...

If you've driven I-5 lately, you'll notice that since Republicans took the House, the signs changed from "Stop the C0ngress Created Dustbowl" to "Stop the Dem0crat Created Dustbowl."


So yeah,... Central Valley farmers are dumber than Snooki after huffing paint.



Corporate and old school conservative family owned farms all vote Republican, so they can have cheap illegal workers and little taxes.
 
2012-06-02 07:24:59 PM

Cubansaltyballs: Nice. Central Valley farmers...

If you've driven I-5 lately, you'll notice that since Republicans took the House, the signs changed from "Stop the C0ngress Created Dustbowl" to "Stop the Dem0crat Created Dustbowl."


So yeah,... Central Valley farmers are dumber than Snooki after huffing paint.


I drive that route about 4 times a year and the signs are freaking hilarious! Just about as funny as the family running across the freeway that you have in SD county.

\This is a horrible idea
\\ Fix the schools before we build a train not enough people will use, ever!
 
2012-06-02 07:25:54 PM

MemeSlave: I fully support whatever California wants to do as long as it implodes more quickly.



If California fails, America is screwed. Highest GDP, highest population, largest agriculture industry, silicon valley, etc. None of you red states would be able to steal tax dollars from them.
 
2012-06-02 07:25:55 PM

relcec: pho-progressives


You've been spelling it that way your whole life, haven't you?
 
2012-06-02 07:26:40 PM

ShivaHVishnu: CrotchgrabberStay out of the Sierras. Go to Big Bear or Mt. San Jacinto. The sensible people who live here don't want you or your HSR boondoggle. California can't afford it, and the Feds aren't going to pay for it, either. Sean Hannity told me that investing in infrastructure is socialism!

 
2012-06-02 07:29:51 PM

beta_plus: the left



Because nothing says the left like a state with governors Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, Jerry Brown, and Arnold Schwarzenegger.
 
2012-06-02 07:31:10 PM
ambercricket:
Yeah, funny how the fact that California's input into the federal treasury props up the red welfare states is always conveniently ignored.

You do know that those "red states take in more taxes" numbers all include the money spent on the military in those states, right? A huge portion of that money goes right back out of those red states to the blue states that supply the military. It's "spent" in the red state, but the money lands in places like California or Washington State, for example. A lot of the "outlay" is also towards retirees - which is why they pay taxes in their expensive blue state for their whole lives, then spend the money in the red state they can afford to retire in.

They also count highway expenditures - which means that those nice big Interstate highways that are used to haul stuff from coast to coast are counted as "income" for those states - when the major beneficiaries are the blue states on the coasts.

One other caveat that's always ignored by people reading those "red states get more" stories is that is only shows where the Federal taxes are collected - not where the tax burden is originated.
 
2012-06-02 07:32:10 PM

Gdalescrboz: Texas seems to be doing something right.



They were born under the largest amount of oil in the country?

The oil economy is directly or indirectly responsible for 80% of new jobs created.
 
2012-06-02 07:32:28 PM
ZipSplat: "I root against anything the Valley wants because the people from there are an utter blight to the state, not really based on any practical reason. Those flat-billed hat wearing, lifted-truck driving, faux-Southern douchebags can go fark themselves. They come through this area every goddamn weekend on their way to Pismo and the dunes - bunch of loud, littering, rude retards."
So why don't you join me in my effort to have all the non-coastal counties secede and form their own state? You smart guys on the coast could have your own state, call it "Pacifica." and we could be California. Then you wouldn't be associated with us rubes out here and could say you're not from CA. It's a win-win. We could grow all the food you need, cut all your lumber, and maybe build a few refineries to provide you with gas for your Prius. I think it's a potential Utopia you're looking at.
 
2012-06-02 07:33:17 PM

cirby: You do know that those "red states take in more taxes" numbers all include the money spent on the military in those states, right?



Another government welfare program needed to prop up red states.
 
2012-06-02 07:38:08 PM
ZipSplat: HSR is not infrastructure. It's a make work program that will need massive subsidies to continue operating after the construction is finished. There aren't enough people in CA to support it. Even if you made it illegal to drive on I-5 and 99 from LA to SF people would just fly, because that's cheaper and faster.
 
2012-06-02 07:41:37 PM

Cubansaltyballs: Nice. Central Valley farmers...

If you've driven I-5 lately, you'll notice that since Republicans took the House, the signs changed from "Stop the C0ngress Created Dustbowl" to "Stop the Dem0crat Created Dustbowl."


So yeah,... Central Valley farmers are dumber than Snooki after huffing paint.


I think you're the one that's been huffing..............retard.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020473180457438473189837 5 624.html

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/drought/2009-07-27-drycalifornia_N.ht m

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/10/farmers-vs-fish-californi_n_ 4 57581.html

The EPA has mandated that billions of gallons of water get dumped into the ocean to protect a farking 2 inch long fish.......sacrificing a huge swath of perfectly good agricultural land and throwing thousands of people out of work.

Congress has been mostly controlled by Dems since this madness started and has done nothing to intervene and stop this but the farmers in California are stupid.............right?

Go fark yourself.
 
2012-06-02 07:46:28 PM
intelligent comment below:
The oil economy is directly or indirectly responsible for 80% of new jobs created.

In Texas? Actually, only about a quarter, at best.
 
2012-06-02 07:48:29 PM

ShivaHVishnu: So why don't you join me in my effort to have all the non-coastal counties secede and form their own state? You smart guys on the coast could have your own state, call it "Pacifica." and we could be California. Then you wouldn't be associated with us rubes out here and could say you're not from CA. It's a win-win. We could grow all the food you need, cut all your lumber, and maybe build a few refineries to provide you with gas for your Prius. I think it's a potential Utopia you're looking at.


1) Learn to use the quote feature properly. Formatting is friendly.
2) If we handed over inland control to you, it would be about a week before Yosemite would be "Brought to You By Mountain Dew and Taco Bell". We can't even let you guys have pseudoephedrine and bleach without you finding a way to hurt yourselves.
 
2012-06-02 07:51:25 PM

intelligent comment below: Gdalescrboz: Texas seems to be doing something right.


They were born under the largest amount of oil in the country?

The oil economy is directly or indirectly responsible for 80% of new jobs created.


Don't be too hard on Texas; Los Angeles was originally built on its heavy crude deposits as well. Oil is still a decent fraction of the state's GDP.
 
2012-06-02 07:51:47 PM

The_Sheriff_Is_A_Niiii: Congress has been mostly controlled by Dems since this madness started and has done nothing to intervene and stop this but the farmers in California are stupid.............right?


Yes, because the solution to this was to vote for Republican congressional candidates. Now that they're in office, the problem still persists yet the "CONGRESS CREATED DUSTBOWL!1!" signs are gone, and Sean Hannity isn't broadcasting live from the artichoke fields anymore.
 
2012-06-02 07:57:39 PM

cirby: In Texas? Actually, only about a quarter, at best.



Not sure if serious
 
2012-06-02 07:58:40 PM
Forget LA to SF. They should have HSR between LA and Las Vegas. It's through the desert anyway so it should be easy.
 
2012-06-02 08:01:22 PM

MemeSlave: I fully support whatever California wants to do as long as it implodes more quickly.


Amen!
 
2012-06-02 08:06:38 PM

Cubansaltyballs: Nice. Central Valley farmers...

If you've driven I-5 lately, you'll notice that since Republicans took the House, the signs changed from "Stop the C0ngress Created Dustbowl" to "Stop the Dem0crat Created Dustbowl."


So yeah,... Central Valley farmers are dumber than Snooki after huffing paint.

.
.

huh?
 
2012-06-02 08:13:43 PM

david_gaithersburg: Cubansaltyballs: Nice. Central Valley farmers...

If you've driven I-5 lately, you'll notice that since Republicans took the House, the signs changed from "Stop the C0ngress Created Dustbowl" to "Stop the Dem0crat Created Dustbowl."


So yeah,... Central Valley farmers are dumber than Snooki after huffing paint.
.
.

huh?



You're a dumbass, we know this already.
 
2012-06-02 08:18:13 PM

The_Sheriff_Is_A_Niiii: The EPA has mandated that billions of gallons of water get dumped into the ocean to protect a farking 2 inch long fish.......sacrificing a huge swath of perfectly good agricultural land and throwing thousands of people out of work.

Congress has been mostly controlled by Dems since this madness started and has done nothing to intervene and stop this but the farmers in California are stupid.............right?

Go fark yourself.



Yeah, but after the Republicans took over and did NOTHING to fix this problem, the moron farmers refused to blame them so they just changed the signs to say Democrats did this instead of "congress".

So yeah, they're f*cking retards and partisan c*nts.
 
2012-06-02 08:42:30 PM

Cubansaltyballs: Nice. Central Valley farmers...

If you've driven I-5 lately, you'll notice that since Republicans took the House, the signs changed from "Stop the C0ngress Created Dustbowl" to "Stop the Dem0crat Created Dustbowl."


So yeah,... Central Valley farmers are dumber than Snooki after huffing paint.


Came here to say this, only not so humorously.

If a Democrat tried to make "Steak and a BJ" day into a legal holiday, Central Valley farmers and Orange County leaders would oppose it.
 
2012-06-02 08:44:48 PM
cirby:
In Texas? Actually, only about a quarter, at best.

intelligent comment below:
Not sure if serious

Serious. Only 15% of new jobs in Texas over the last few years have been in the oil industry, with another ten percent or so in support businesses.

Texas has a huge manufacturing sector, a very large agricultural sector, and a diverse economy overall. They've been directly benefiting from California's foolish business policies, and picking up a lot of the industrial expansion that California gave up for higher taxes and more extensive regulations. Per capita, there's more manufacturing going on in Texas than in California: 13% of the gross state product compared to 11.2% for California.

California is actually below average, per capita, for manufacturing versus GDP (11.7% nationwide). And falling.

Before spouting off any more about it, you might try basing your argument on something better than a psychotic movie clown's quote...
 
2012-06-02 08:47:30 PM
Kreighund:
If a Democrat tried to make "Steak and a BJ" day into a legal holiday, Central Valley farmers and Orange County leaders would oppose it.

Because the Democrat would try to make it a statewide holiday and make the farmers and the businessmen pay for it. Then they'd set it up to only take place in downtown LA and San Francisco, on a weekday. At three PM.
 
2012-06-02 08:47:38 PM

Krieghund: Came here to say this, only not so humorously.

If a Democrat tried to make "Steak and a BJ" day into a legal holiday, Central Valley farmers and Orange County leaders would oppose it.



Only because the free-market would cause the rates of their rent-boys to skyrocket.
 
2012-06-02 08:48:40 PM

cirby: Kreighund:
If a Democrat tried to make "Steak and a BJ" day into a legal holiday, Central Valley farmers and Orange County leaders would oppose it.

Because the Democrat would try to make it a statewide holiday and make the farmers and the businessmen pay for it. Then they'd set it up to only take place in downtown LA and San Francisco, on a weekday. At three PM.


Sounds like you're just upset you won't be able to go. Don't worry though, you can go to a bathhouse anytime you want.
 
2012-06-02 08:51:03 PM

cirby: Serious. Only 15% of new jobs in Texas over the last few years have been in the oil industry, with another ten percent or so in support businesses.



You have that backwards.

80% of new jobs are directly because of the oil industry.
 
2012-06-02 08:54:34 PM
Wouldn't a hi-speed bicycle path from San Diego to Sacramento be better?

/i'd have a little cart so my dog could ride along too
 
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