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(LA Times)   California would need a $68 billion bullet train to move all the environmental lawyers trying to stop the project   (latimes.com) divider line 140
    More: Interesting, environmental legislation, California, Madera County, California High-Speed Rail Authority, Orange County Transportation Authority, Sacramento County Superior Court, Orange County, high-speed trains  
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4496 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Jun 2012 at 5:23 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-02 05:08:00 PM
Nice. Central Valley farmers...

If you've driven I-5 lately, you'll notice that since Republicans took the House, the signs changed from "Stop the C0ngress Created Dustbowl" to "Stop the Dem0crat Created Dustbowl."


So yeah,... Central Valley farmers are dumber than Snooki after huffing paint.
 
2012-06-02 05:26:23 PM
I don't understand how having one train replace the need for X number of cars hurts the enviroment more.
 
2012-06-02 05:27:02 PM
I fully support whatever California wants to do as long as it implodes more quickly.
 
2012-06-02 05:28:32 PM

Kaldea: I don't understand how having one train replace the need for X number of cars hurts the enviroment more.


Because the train would be running along a route where X isn't all that big.
 
2012-06-02 05:29:21 PM

Cubansaltyballs: Nice. Central Valley farmers...

If you've driven I-5 lately, you'll notice that since Republicans took the House, the signs changed from "Stop the C0ngress Created Dustbowl" to "Stop the Dem0crat Created Dustbowl."


So yeah,... Central Valley farmers are dumber than Snooki after huffing paint.


This is exactly why I do my best to spend as little time in the central valley as possible. It can be quite a challenge holding your bladder from the cost to the sierras though.
 
2012-06-02 05:30:05 PM

MemeSlave: I fully support whatever California wants to do as long as it implodes more quickly.


On behalf of my fellow Californians, I'd like to thank the economy for giving non-Californians another joke besides "waiting for the Big One so California will fall into the ocean."

That said, despite my total support for rail, CA high speed rail is a clusterfark in the making. The project's only selling point is getting you out of Fresno quickly.
 
2012-06-02 05:35:02 PM
FTFA:

Authority officials plan to start building the first 130 miles of track in the Central Valley by the end of the year. That $6-billion section, which will not be equipped to operate trains, is supposed to be finished by 2017 to avoid losing federal funds.

Umm, $6 billion and it is not equipped to operate trains? WTF are they building -- lego tracks?
 
2012-06-02 05:35:13 PM
The LA Weekly covered some of the issues related to the bullet train. Several things are going to go wrong: The number of passengers projected is far too high (higher than the East Coast Boston-to-DC corridor with actual trains and a stronger public transit history) and every state senator along the way seems to want a stop in their town, thus killing the speed.
 
2012-06-02 05:37:01 PM
Farking hell not this again.

How about some competently operated normal-speed trains first? Oh no. We've got to have SUPPER DUPER AMAZING BULLET TRAINS! To more quickly spend all of the money, I presume.
 
2012-06-02 05:37:33 PM

0MGWTFBBQ: FTFA:

Authority officials plan to start building the first 130 miles of track in the Central Valley by the end of the year. That $6-billion section, which will not be equipped to operate trains, is supposed to be finished by 2017 to avoid losing federal funds.

Umm, $6 billion and it is not equipped to operate trains? WTF are they building -- lego tracks?


I wonder if this is just train bed preparation, or being built without the signals in place yet. Either way, check out my previous post about the clusterfark. Also, $68 billion estimate is off, it is actually closer to $100 billion.
 
2012-06-02 05:37:42 PM

0MGWTFBBQ: FTFA:

Authority officials plan to start building the first 130 miles of track in the Central Valley by the end of the year. That $6-billion section, which will not be equipped to operate trains, is supposed to be finished by 2017 to avoid losing federal funds.

Umm, $6 billion and it is not equipped to operate trains? WTF are they building -- lego tracks?


I also questioned what exactly that means.
 
2012-06-02 05:41:45 PM
Ah, environmental lawyers, California's most abundant natural resource second only to bureaucrats.
 
2012-06-02 05:43:24 PM
46 million dollars a mile? What could possibly cause any type of transportation to cost over 9k a foot? Even in a state as ridiculous as California, this seems incomprehensible.
 
2012-06-02 05:52:25 PM
All of the western states need this.
 
2012-06-02 05:52:57 PM
I'm in favor of just about anything that stops that boondoggle from getting off the ground. And fark all those jackass citizens who voted for spending billions and billions of dollars on a project that could never possibly be self-sufficient when the state economy was already proper farked. Sweet, merciful crap, people are stupid.
 
2012-06-02 05:53:34 PM

MemeSlave: I fully support whatever California wants to do as long as it implodes more quickly.


You know, California would be a wonderful place if only everything to the left of the San Andreas Fault simply fell into the ocean. And think of the SyFy Movie we would get out of it. What I like to call a Win Win Situation.
 
2012-06-02 05:55:25 PM
Hurf durf, Imma rootin tootin repulocan, and I hates those liberal blue cities on that thar coast.

Horses and leather forever!
 
2012-06-02 05:56:46 PM

jtown: I'm in favor of just about anything that stops that boondoggle from getting off the ground. And fark all those jackass citizens who voted for spending billions and billions of dollars on a project that could never possibly be self-sufficient when the state economy was already proper farked. Sweet, merciful crap, people are stupid.


GIS Boondoggle... I never knew this was what that was called.

farm5.static.flickr.com
 
2012-06-02 06:00:40 PM

Ed Willy: Also, $68 billion estimate is off, it is actually closer to $100 billion.


By the time it's actually built and running, $225 billion, easy.

/not from california
//don't want to BE from california
///typical huge govt program
 
2012-06-02 06:00:48 PM
This just reinforces what I have said for years. Environmental study and reporting requirements are non-value added fluff. The only purpose they ever serve is a as a mechanism for someone with ax to grind to derail construction projects. Its ironic that now such suits are being used to stop something that on balance would probably benefit the environment by reducing car miles traveled. The farmers have caught on to the enviro-weenies tactics.
 
2012-06-02 06:02:42 PM
I live in Bakersfield. Please... someone kill me.
 
2012-06-02 06:08:59 PM
Okay Farkers, here comes the math:

Cost of the railroad: $68 billion----- IF it is built on budget, fat chance;

Cost of an airplane ticket, one way: $125 average;

Number of tickets you have to sell to break even in 10 years: 148,000/day.

That would work out to a train packed with 400 people, every 4 minutes 24 hours a day, 365 days a year; not likely.
 
2012-06-02 06:11:37 PM

olddinosaur: Number of tickets you have to sell to break even in 10 years: 148,000/day.


Actually it depends, do you consider yourself in the hole when it starts operation or do you consider yourself at $0.
 
2012-06-02 06:11:44 PM

HotIgneous Intruder: Farking hell not this again.

How about some competently operated normal-speed trains first? Oh no. We've got to have SUPPER DUPER AMAZING BULLET TRAINS! To more quickly spend all of the money, I presume.


Other states are doing incremental upgrades to make high speed eventually possible, but California wants to avoid expanding airports that just can't be expanded. San Diego really has no option to expand the number of people than can use SAN. There just isn't any flat land left that can be used without going 90 miles or so from downtown. LA has the same problem with LAX. There are other airports around, but they're not well located (such as ONT.)

Because of this, the people with the money to push a project like this think they need HSR to get people to these remote airports or to avoid flying altogether. A lot of flights connect between CA airports, so the hope is that HSR will free up some gates for out of state/country flights.
 
2012-06-02 06:14:18 PM

olddinosaur: break even in 10 years


Why 10 years? The ROW will last forever, and the tracks themselves should last a lot longer than 10 years.
 
2012-06-02 06:16:12 PM
Libs, you ever wonder why conservatives refuse to negotiate on economic policy with you? Stop farking up simple tasks
 
2012-06-02 06:20:03 PM

Gdalescrboz: you ever wonder why conservatives refuse to negotiate on economic policy with you? St


Because conservatives demonstrate such facility for economic policy.
 
2012-06-02 06:21:12 PM

Voiceofreason01: Ah, environmental lawyers, California's most abundant natural resource second only to bureaucrats.


The Economist had sn article last year that showed CA has one of the smallest government worker to resident ratios in the country. It would have shrunk even further over the past decades except for the education and corrections departments continued growth.
 
2012-06-02 06:23:49 PM
So lad I left that flush with cash state.
 
2012-06-02 06:25:43 PM

Ima4nic8or: This just reinforces what I have said for years. Environmental study and reporting requirements are non-value added fluff. The only purpose they ever serve is a as a mechanism for someone with ax to grind to derail construction projects. Its ironic that now such suits are being used to stop something that on balance would probably benefit the environment by reducing car miles traveled. The farmers have caught on to the enviro-weenies tactics.


You know, it's exactly that reason why we don't have anymore "grand projects." I always see people write stuff like, "Why don't we have any more Hoover Dams or Empire State Buildings? We built those in months!" Because I'm betting they didn't have a swarm of "environmental advocacy" groups waiting to swoop in and file a law suit claiming the construction would displace smelt herders.
 
2012-06-02 06:28:24 PM

Gulper Eel: Kaldea: I don't understand how having one train replace the need for X number of cars hurts the enviroment more.

Because the train would be running along a route where X isn't all that big.


Between two places that nobody in their right mind wants to go.
 
2012-06-02 06:30:07 PM
Man, I love the California hate threads.
 
2012-06-02 06:30:54 PM
Here in Minnesota, we have these deer ticks. They get on you and infect you with Lyme's Disease.
You get to feeling sick.
You spend all your money missing the diagnosis.
The infection causes dementia and you lose your mind.

In California you have these lawyers,,,
 
2012-06-02 06:31:26 PM
By the time they finish building this white elephant it will be as fast as a bus in downtown rush hour traffic, and not go anywhere you want to go. The only purpose of the bullet train is to give large amounts of money to the right people.
 
2012-06-02 06:32:05 PM

snocone: Here in Minnesota, we have these deer ticks. They get on you and infect you with Lyme's Disease.
You get to feeling sick.
You spend all your money missing the diagnosis.
The infection causes dementia and you lose your mind.

In California you have these lawyers,,,


Want to trade?
 
2012-06-02 06:32:25 PM
Remember how America used to be able to send men to walk on the motherfarking moon and shiate? That was awesome.
 
2012-06-02 06:32:48 PM
Is the Ironic tag high on medical marijuana?

/I love it when the left self destructs
 
2012-06-02 06:32:49 PM

hstein3: You know, it's exactly that reason why we don't have anymore "grand projects."


Actually it's not. It's that no one wants to actually make them happen any more. The environmental regs thing is often way overplayed. They were doing some highway construction near here a few years back and one of the bridges was supposed to go right over a little bit of marsh. Turns out, that simply making it run a bit higher took care of the issue.
 
2012-06-02 06:34:06 PM

beta_plus: /I love it when the left self destructs


Please explain how high speed rail is a left vs right issue.
 
2012-06-02 06:34:16 PM

snocone: Here in Minnesota, we have these deer ticks. They get on you and infect you with Lyme's Disease.
You get to feeling sick.
You spend all your money missing the diagnosis.
The infection causes dementia and you lose your mind.

In California you have these lawyers,,,


Normally, I would say burn all the lawyers at a stake, but these are slowing the progress and may stop it in its tracks (pun intended). Therefore, I am going to hold off tossing gas on them, for now...
 
2012-06-02 06:36:13 PM
California will take the monorail out of Debtville.
 
2012-06-02 06:36:46 PM

fredbox: Remember how America used to be able to send men to walk on the motherfarking moon and shiate? That was awesome.


Remember how America used to care about trying out new technologies instead of obsessing about out of date early 19th century modes of transportation? That was awesome.

/build privately leased toll roads
//you know, like how your favorite country in the world France does
 
2012-06-02 06:41:00 PM

beta_plus: /build privately leased toll roads


Actually the companies that administer them are part stated owned. And the national government still has direct oversight.
 
2012-06-02 06:42:50 PM

olddinosaur: Okay Farkers, here comes the math:

Cost of the railroad: $68 billion----- IF it is built on budget, fat chance;

Cost of an airplane ticket, one way: $125 average;

Number of tickets you have to sell to break even in 10 years: 148,000/day.

That would work out to a train packed with 400 people, every 4 minutes 24 hours a day, 365 days a year; not likely.


Since when does infrastructure have to be profitable? How much profit does the FAA make? How about the streets and roads you use? What of their profit?

Rail can move people and goods further per unit fuel than any other mode. Every other developed country has figured this out but we proudly remain 60 years behind the developed world in rail technology.
 
2012-06-02 06:45:36 PM

davidphogan: olddinosaur: break even in 10 years

Why 10 years? The ROW will last forever, and the tracks themselves should last a lot longer than 10 years.


That is true, but trains need fuel, trains wear out in time, people to drive them need to be paid, and so do the people who swell the tickets, so do the people who work at the depots, et cetera ad infinitum ad nauseam.

I only cited the 10-year figure to cover the cost of building the railroad, the cost to operate it was not factored in. That would add at least 50% to the figure.
 
2012-06-02 06:46:42 PM

lohphat: Since when does infrastructure have to be profitable? How much profit does the FAA make? How about the streets and roads you use? What of their profit?


And the same people that talk about it being in the read never apply the same math to other things, like defense projects.
 
2012-06-02 06:48:37 PM

WhyteRaven74: beta_plus: /build privately leased toll roads

Actually the companies that administer them are part stated owned. And the national government still has direct oversight.


Hence the term leased - oversight of such projects is implied.

The spend far less on their roads as a result of paying the contractor with the tolls from the highway.

www.wallpaperhill.com

/how much would you pay for the tallest bridge in the world?
//French only paid about $ 1/2 billion
///In America, the same would have cost $10 billion
 
2012-06-02 06:48:50 PM
Bullet trains are not bad but this plan was. That is the big difference. People were told a whole lot of BS so that they would vote for it. And then as more and more reports of all the bad numbers they used to sell it came out people got angry for being lied too. I have zero problems with high-speed rail. I have lots of problems for projects that lie their ass off in order to get it approved. And then drop the "oops we may have made a mistake so we need lots more money to continue working" line. And also maybe we should probably figure out how to get a train to go from LA to San Fransisco first.
 
2012-06-02 06:50:22 PM

olddinosaur: but trains need fuel,


If you power them with electricity you can power them for cheap. California what's more is uniquely suited to provide tons of dirt cheap electricity were someone inclined to put up the infrastructure and generation facilities.

That would add at least 50% to the figure.

Actually operational costs aren't very much.
 
2012-06-02 06:50:36 PM
Why are we wasting our time on high-speed rail? Someone needs to invent the flying Delorean or at least a teleporter... sheesh ,this is 2012 after all.
 
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