With them all in one place it would be simple for it to have an accident and go down with no survivors.

Oldiron_79: way south: DO NOT WANT Poster Girl: mr intrepid: Hello, this is the US Coast Guard. You say you're in the floating city, the "independent" one? You say you're being boarded by pirates? Fine.
Will that be Visa, Mastercard, or American Express?

Came here to say this.

A floating material-rich city with wealthy inhabitants, a handful of police, a bunch of resources including women and children, and isolated in international waters?

Ca-ching.

Wealthy people aren't always stupid. I'd wager this will be a well guarded place since being outside the jurisdiction of gun laws, and having more than enough cash to pay mercenaries, will make that a certainty.

The question is if real nations will let this thing sit in the ocean without wanting to exert their own claim on such a wealthy little tax haven. The potential mobility of the thing is probably why it seems more attractive than just buying some banana republic and taking over the government.

The REAL NATIONS (TM) of the world would not tolerate it if it actually worked out good and was sucessful, someone's Navy would show up on your doorstep and inform you that you are now thier citizens.

If it was actually successful, with billions of dollars pouring into this tax shelter, I wonder how far that Navy would get before another navy responded. Rich people tend to have good connections in government.

I think it could go either way, really.

/Again, why not just buy an island?
/Probably something to do with how they can milk a larger nation for security while still being "independent".
/Two hundred miles off coast may be international water, but another nation would be foolish to try and launch a military operation under the nose of a larger navy.
/In the end They're capturing an island of paperwork that's due to become worthless before you can run a flag up its pole.

A couple of little catches.

!) They plan to moor 12 miles off shore, but the US claims an exclusive economic zone of 200 nm.

2) If they think its gonna be a an unregluated paradise, think again. You simply can't put a bunch of people on a ship wihout regulations...Think of a HOA on steroids.

werekoala: I used to think this would be a great idea. Then I stopped being 17.

And at any rate, this sounds less like some utopian libertarian micronation, and more like a gimmicky condo.

Put it this way: who shovels the shiat? Both metaphorically and literally, any community of even moderate independence needs people to clean toilets, wash dishes, and take out the garbage.

I once met a stripper who had this idea of perfect utopia in which everyone just does the job they wish to do and how it would work because society would just find a way to function without money or currency which she claimed didn't exist. As a former economics student I went on to explain to her that while money is a fiction we all agree on no money just wouldn't work.
No one had ever disagreed with her before on this type of nonsense because she was pretty enough.

I asked her who would clean toilets in her utopia and she tried to explain that someone out there would do it eventually but if they could do anything why would they do that? Why not be a farmer or an artist, why shovel shiat all day if you've got the choice. At this point she left the conversation looking rather angry at me.
Left-Wing or Right-Wing utopia's rarely think about who cleans the toilets and shovels the shiat. Someone has to be at the bottom of the ladder and they're the only thing stopping the people at the top from falling in it.

tuffsnake: "Honey Timmy broke his arm playing with some kids and needs to get it looked at, what time does the medical boat swing round again?"

"Hm, looks like it's 3 days. Now Timmy I'd be happy to take you there in my boat but I'd have to charge you at least 3 ayns and you spent all of yours at the candy shop last weekend. I mean I can't just take you there because I'm your father and you 'need' it. You have to earn things in life."

Perhaps you've read this: http://www.salon.com/2011/04/05/my_father_the_objectivist/

GilRuiz1: redsquid: I've done some preliminary checking and you can buy retired floatels, which are floating towns on barges, at surprisingly low prices. These are used to house workers and they have dorms, private cabins, theaters, rec areas, infirmaries, surgeries, cafeterias, etc. Everything you need for a small community. A group of like-minded people could easily buy a barge with a kickstarter -like program. It sounds great but while you're planning your vegan, open love, ocean going meditation retreat some one else is planning a racist dreamboat or a floating sweatshop to side step safety standards. It will be interesting to see it develope.


*googles 'floatel'* ... welp, there goes my next hour.

You know, you make a good point. People imagine it will be entrepreneurial captains of industry who will establish groundbreaking industries offshore, but who is to say it won't be some sadistic drug lord or dictator type who will build a private palace staffed by slaves? We think it will be Tony Stark who'll do this, but who is to say it won't be Saddam Hussein?

Google "Filipino workers in Middle East" and you'll get a sense of how this will play out. I imagine a lot of kidde porn being filmed and disposable prostitutes from slums all over the world. Hell, there's a problem in the US with workers, mostly women, being sexually harassed at work only to realize that when you work at an Indian casino, you're outside of legal workplace protections accorded by US or state law.

SDRR: St_Francis_P: Colonizing the ocean is pretty cool, so I'm quite happy to see billionaires wasting their money thinking they'll have their Randian utopia.

Seconded

Good to see people mocking innovation and exploration.

Actor_au: werekoala: I used to think this would be a great idea. Then I stopped being 17.

And at any rate, this sounds less like some utopian libertarian micronation, and more like a gimmicky condo.

Put it this way: who shovels the shiat? Both metaphorically and literally, any community of even moderate independence needs people to clean toilets, wash dishes, and take out the garbage.

I once met a stripper who had this idea of perfect utopia in which everyone just does the job they wish to do and how it would work because society would just find a way to function without money or currency which she claimed didn't exist. As a former economics student I went on to explain to her that while money is a fiction we all agree on no money just wouldn't work.
No one had ever disagreed with her before on this type of nonsense because she was pretty enough.

I asked her who would clean toilets in her utopia and she tried to explain that someone out there would do it eventually but if they could do anything why would they do that? Why not be a farmer or an artist, why shovel shiat all day if you've got the choice. At this point she left the conversation looking rather angry at me.
Left-Wing or Right-Wing utopia's rarely think about who cleans the toilets and shovels the shiat. Someone has to be at the bottom of the ladder and they're the only thing stopping the people at the top from falling in it.

THIS. As an economics teacher once explained it normal civilized society as we know it would cease to exist faster if the garbage men didn't show up to work than if the lawyers didn't show up to work.

Drakenul: Came for Andrew Ryan, leaving satisfied.

Andrew Ryan wouldn't care if you came as long as he got off.

ansius: And let's see, we have a group of cashed up billionaires, who made their fortune creating companies that sell services to a huge volume of middle class people or to other companies that do this. Their fortune came from the consumer demand of a huge body of people who have income they can use to buy their goods and services. The income of these people depends upon their ability to get and secure decent paying jobs. This relies on them having access to expensive education that most of them can't afford themselves, except perhaps through massive levels of debt, so is subsidised by the national economy though the mechanism of taxes paid to the government and public spending on educational services.

Now these guys want to move offshore to minimise their exposure to taxes and to give them the freedom of bringing in pre-trained labor from other countries.

So, in effect, they want to stop paying taxes, which are used to increase the educational standards and economic capacity of the Nation. And they want to bring in educated workers from other nations. And then they'll try to sell their goods and services back into the national economy.

This isn't 'Libertarianism'. This is a farking free ride.

And they know it.

And you guys are buying it.

You sound bitter and poor.

MilesTeg: ansius: And let's see, we have a group of cashed up billionaires, who made their fortune creating companies that sell services to a huge volume of middle class people or to other companies that do this. Their fortune came from the consumer demand of a huge body of people who have income they can use to buy their goods and services. The income of these people depends upon their ability to get and secure decent paying jobs. This relies on them having access to expensive education that most of them can't afford themselves, except perhaps through massive levels of debt, so is subsidised by the national economy though the mechanism of taxes paid to the government and public spending on educational services.

Now these guys want to move offshore to minimise their exposure to taxes and to give them the freedom of bringing in pre-trained labor from other countries.

So, in effect, they want to stop paying taxes, which are used to increase the educational standards and economic capacity of the Nation. And they want to bring in educated workers from other nations. And then they'll try to sell their goods and services back into the national economy.

This isn't 'Libertarianism'. This is a farking free ride.

And they know it.

And you guys are buying it.

You sound bitter and poor.

Funny how often I hear that oh so funny retort from Ayn Rand tattooed Libertarians. So original in their thinking. Or merely freed from the shackles of having an original thought?

And no, comfortably well off, and happy to pay my dues to society both in terms of taxes and direct contribution of my income to charities, and my own labor to worthy causes.

What have you done today Son? Apart from trolling that is.

Weaver95: falcon176: spend 200 million to avoid paying 30 million in taxes

y'know...the easiest solution to all the world's problems is to simply push the reset button. think about it - if you are the 1%, the best move for you is to wipe out 90% or so of the world population. some sort of engineered plague or whatnot. you want the world to return to something similar to what europe looked like in the wake of the Black Death.

then you and your army of immunized goons and thugs could move in, 'save' the survivors and easily enslave them. you could build just about any type of society you wanted. you'd have plenty of room to expand. debts would be wiped out. no more taxes. A fresh start, if you will.

I wish I could just take your post for the joke it's meant to be.

So according to the article, the rich have decided they have plundered the country enough and want to start their own exclusive island with no rules?

Have at it. I'm sure it will work great for at least the first few years or decade.

And having a real life bioshock is not a great thing. Building a giant city with no rules on scientific limit or law except for the personal credibility of the richest people? You'll get great results but at the cost of everything that isn't money.

PacManDreaming: "Blueseed expects its offshore seastead will bypass U.S. immigration and business restrictions to draw entrepreneurs from around the world allow Mexican pirates to work near Silicon Valley infiltrate and rob everyone on board."

Except the savings they would have from low taxes would allow them to own pretty impressive arms. Plus, without the regulations on weapons ownership we have in the U.S. they could arm themselves individually well enough so that any attack on them would be pointless suicide.

God-is-a-Taco: Great, move them to one of those giant patches of floating garbage in the ocean.
Since their goal is mass pollution and exploiting workers, it's the perfect fit.
The bodies of the laborers thrown overboard will even blend in!

The guy funding this made Paypal, was one of the initial investors of facebook, and backed yelp. Thiel has better things to do than throw his garage into the ocean.

And do you think employees of Paypal are exploited? If they were then why wouldn't they quit?

Tommy Moo: You're still going to have to pay taxes on anything you earn, buy, or sell in the United States, retards. Also, just wait until you see how much more efficient having a unified, central police force is than having to each hire your own personal security staff.

Because you're smarter than a bunch of self-made billionaires, and economists. Right?

Ever hear about Blackwater? I bet they're real inefficient.

theorellior: I suppose this could help develop technologies that would be directly applicable to space colonization, like growing food with no land, waste reclamation, population limitations... or this could lead to the development of giant floating barges sucking down whatever food is flown from coastal cities while oozing a trail of turds and condom wrappers across the briny deeps. Forgive me if I assume that the kind of people who are interested in this will tend to think that the tragedy of the commons is only applicable to the commoners and not themselves.

At least if you pollute your environs in space it's either gonna kill you or be blown away by the solar wind.

Same backer also funds the Founders Fund.

SDRR: St_Francis_P: Colonizing the ocean is pretty cool, so I'm quite happy to see billionaires wasting their money thinking they'll have their Randian utopia.

Seconded

Its the fifth libertarian nation attempt I'm aware of.

mr intrepid: Hello, this is the US Coast Guard. You say you're in the floating city, the "independent" one? You say you're being boarded by pirates? Fine.
Will that be Visa, Mastercard, or American Express?

And you remember that time Aruba get attacked by pirates?

What, why not? Oh wait because it didn't happen. Micronations can work.

rewind2846: It's not about the money for these cockgobblers, it's about the principal.
Wealthy people who can run from the evil IRS to other countries have more than enough money to pay their taxes, in some cases enough for a hundred lifetimes worth.
The issue is that they get pissed at the thought of any of their taxes going to help "those people", meaning any people who they perceive as "unlike" them. This seems to be a common streak among anti-taxers, only the rich ones can leave while the poor ones just sit and b*tch.

Any american citizen who leaves the country for the purpose of evading taxation should be given one year to pay up. If they don't, revoke their citizenship after that year is up, and after two years of non-payment deny them entry into the country forever.

You play here, you pay here.

What are the things you expect out of a government?

Most reasonable people would say stuff like protection, and sidewalk repair. Stuff like that.
Nobody who isn't an idiot would expect,let alone demand a retirement fund, pointless wars in foreign nations, subsidizing the political indoctrination they call education these days, cops sitting around all day pointing laser guns at us.

So, yeah, they have to pay a good chunk of the money they make to pay for that. I can understand why they would be resentful about it. I also resent the biggest losers of society telling me what to do, and sticking their hands in my pockets.

And guess what kid? People do routinely give up citizenship to save money. You try the rest of your idea, and see which way the economy goes. You may want to control everyone from pathological insecurity issues, but other people don't like it.

mat catastrophe: If, after more than ten years, you still can't find 20,000 Libertarian assholes to take over farking New Hampshire, you might be biting off more than you can chew with floating sea-cities.

/farking Libertarians.

And yet they somehow have prevented authorities from issuing hundreds of parking tickets (copblock.com) they raised awareness about their small towns getting militarized with ridiculous tanks, and they did eliminate at least one tax already, and this is before the official move-in date.

ansius: MilesTeg: "I'm here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? 'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.' I rejected those answers."

"Eww!" says the normal person, "It's sweat. But if, with this poetical allusion, you're referring to the income you made from living in a society with a good standard of living that we have all contributed, either directly through our taxes or indirectly through the fact that we conduct ourselves in a socially moral manner, then yes, you should pay your share of your income to the community of which you are a part. And if your income is very high, then you have benefited greatly from living in our community, so you should pay a higher share."

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities, but of their advantages"

-Adam Smith

werekoala: I used to think this would be a great idea. Then I stopped being 17.

And at any rate, this sounds less like some utopian libertarian micronation, and more like a gimmicky condo.

Put it this way: who shovels the shiat? Both metaphorically and literally, any community of even moderate independence needs people to clean toilets, wash dishes, and take out the garbage.

More generally, who thinks that assembling all of the "malcontents" in an isolated and confined space is going to end well?

I don't think the people who are willing to leave home behind to be janitors on a rusting tub with zero worker protections are going to play nice with everyone. It will be interesting to see whether the underclass or the mercenaries will take over first...

And it speaks to the more general assumption that trips up the wannabe Rugged Individualist. They assume that all of the taxes and regulations and social programs are just bleeding-heart do-gooding run amok. When in reality, there are generally good and pragmatic reasons for the way things are done.

They get so focused on this BS vision they have been sold of how things could be if they weren't having so much stolen from them, that they completely lose the ability for critical thought, and realizing that if the answers were easy, we'd have implemented them long ago.

Iguess in that respect they are no different from any dogmatic cult, but it is really frustrating to watch them ignore the repeated evidence of history as to how bad things really do get for most people in the absence of social order. They want to believe that people act in enlightened self-interest. fark, if that were the case, communism would work!

The value of washing toilets would go up til someone would be willing to take the job. Pay isn't some static thing.

Durr.

Diogenes The Cynic: werekoala: I used to think this would be a great idea. Then I stopped being 17.

And at any rate, this sounds less like some utopian libertarian micronation, and more like a gimmicky condo.

Put it this way: who shovels the shiat? Both metaphorically and literally, any community of even moderate independence needs people to clean toilets, wash dishes, and take out the garbage.

More generally, who thinks that assembling all of the "malcontents" in an isolated and confined space is going to end well?

I don't think the people who are willing to leave home behind to be janitors on a rusting tub with zero worker protections are going to play nice with everyone. It will be interesting to see whether the underclass or the mercenaries will take over first...

And it speaks to the more general assumption that trips up the wannabe Rugged Individualist. They assume that all of the taxes and regulations and social programs are just bleeding-heart do-gooding run amok. When in reality, there are generally good and pragmatic reasons for the way things are done.

They get so focused on this BS vision they have been sold of how things could be if they weren't having so much stolen from them, that they completely lose the ability for critical thought, and realizing that if the answers were easy, we'd have implemented them long ago.

Iguess in that respect they are no different from any dogmatic cult, but it is really frustrating to watch them ignore the repeated evidence of history as to how bad things really do get for most people in the absence of social order. They want to believe that people act in enlightened self-interest. fark, if that were the case, communism would work!

The value of washing toilets would go up til someone would be willing to take the job. Pay isn't some static thing.

Durr.

I think this is the troublesome truth of the matter.
Its easier to find a garbageman or toilet washer that is willing to work under horrible conditions than it is to find a lawyer. There are plenty of shiathole countries to farm them from.

An island of stupidly rich people will be able to import staff and use them under practically slave like conditions by offering a few pennies more to do the work, then take half those pennies back by raping them for room and board.

The place won't be a functional society, its a tax haven. The gap between rich and poor will be absurd and look more like living on a cruise ship than a real city.

/Garbage men aren't lawyers, they'll probably accept payment in worthless island tokens.
/Treatment like this is why unions had to become a thing on the mainland.
/I suspect this little democratic republic of libertarianism won't be allowing those...

Diogenes The Cynic: Tommy Moo: You're still going to have to pay taxes on anything you earn, buy, or sell in the United States, retards. Also, just wait until you see how much more efficient having a unified, central police force is than having to each hire your own personal security staff.

Because you're smarter than a bunch of self-made billionaires, and economists. Right?

Ever hear about Blackwater? I bet they're real inefficient.

I have. My friend's husband works for them. He makes $120,000/year as a bootman. That's about as much as three cops or four army infantry. You are insane if you think private security isn't much, much more expensive than pooling tax money and raising a public security force.

Jaws_Victim: Weaver95: falcon176: spend 200 million to avoid paying 30 million in taxes

y'know...the easiest solution to all the world's problems is to simply push the reset button. think about it - if you are the 1%, the best move for you is to wipe out 90% or so of the world population. some sort of engineered plague or whatnot. you want the world to return to something similar to what europe looked like in the wake of the Black Death.

then you and your army of immunized goons and thugs could move in, 'save' the survivors and easily enslave them. you could build just about any type of society you wanted. you'd have plenty of room to expand. debts would be wiped out. no more taxes. A fresh start, if you will.

I wish I could just take your post for the joke it's meant to be.

So according to the article, the rich have decided they have plundered the country enough and want to start their own exclusive island with no rules?

Have at it. I'm sure it will work great for at least the first few years or decade.

And having a real life bioshock is not a great thing. Building a giant city with no rules on scientific limit or law except for the personal credibility of the richest people? You'll get great results but at the cost of everything that isn't money.

But is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? 'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.'

As long as their polution (because you know they will) does not affect anyone's EEZ and they don't expect us to bail their asses out after a hurricane, sure.

Tommy Moo: Diogenes The Cynic: Tommy Moo: You're still going to have to pay taxes on anything you earn, buy, or sell in the United States, retards. Also, just wait until you see how much more efficient having a unified, central police force is than having to each hire your own personal security staff.

Because you're smarter than a bunch of self-made billionaires, and economists. Right?

Ever hear about Blackwater? I bet they're real inefficient.

I have. My friend's husband works for them. He makes $120,000/year as a bootman. That's about as much as three cops or four army infantry. You are insane if you think private security isn't much, much more expensive than pooling tax money and raising a public security force.


The price Blackwater charges is for trained soldiers to operate in gray legal areas internationally and answer the call of politicians and the absurdly rich. If you wanted it cheaper, you could probably get dozens of gunmen off the streets for the same price.

Also; the kind of people that would be island sponsors owe tens of millions in taxes apiece.
They'll probably still save money in the end.

/Its not like you need a whole army to guard one oil rig.

Nope.

Diogenes The Cynic: mat catastrophe: If, after more than ten years, you still can't find 20,000 Libertarian assholes to take over farking New Hampshire, you might be biting off more than you can chew with floating sea-cities.

/farking Libertarians.

And yet they somehow have prevented authorities from issuing hundreds of parking tickets (copblock.com) they raised awareness about their small towns getting militarized with ridiculous tanks, and they did eliminate at least one tax already, and this is before the official move-in date.

Well, then, hot damn. All they have to do now is remove those pesky labor laws and it will be a paradise.

Diogenes The Cynic: werekoala: I used to think this would be a great idea. Then I stopped being 17.

And at any rate, this sounds less like some utopian libertarian micronation, and more like a gimmicky condo.

Put it this way: who shovels the shiat? Both metaphorically and literally, any community of even moderate independence needs people to clean toilets, wash dishes, and take out the garbage.

More generally, who thinks that assembling all of the "malcontents" in an isolated and confined space is going to end well?

I don't think the people who are willing to leave home behind to be janitors on a rusting tub with zero worker protections are going to play nice with everyone. It will be interesting to see whether the underclass or the mercenaries will take over first...

And it speaks to the more general assumption that trips up the wannabe Rugged Individualist. They assume that all of the taxes and regulations and social programs are just bleeding-heart do-gooding run amok. When in reality, there are generally good and pragmatic reasons for the way things are done.

They get so focused on this BS vision they have been sold of how things could be if they weren't having so much stolen from them, that they completely lose the ability for critical thought, and realizing that if the answers were easy, we'd have implemented them long ago.

Iguess in that respect they are no different from any dogmatic cult, but it is really frustrating to watch them ignore the repeated evidence of history as to how bad things really do get for most people in the absence of social order. They want to believe that people act in enlightened self-interest. fark, if that were the case, communism would work!

The value of washing toilets would go up til someone would be willing to take the job. Pay isn't some static thing.

Durr.

No one is saying it's static. I'm saying it has always been cheaper for the rich and powerful to exploit the poor and powerless, than to pay them a fair market wage.

For instance, lets say no one wants to scrub shiat on a rusting shanty-town for minimum wage. So they go out and recruit blue-collar types with $50k/yr salaries.

But then those guys get out there and find out that rent is $2k/mo, food is $1k, and they have to work 12 hour shifts each day and get docked for each day they miss, and have terrible & dangerous work conditions.

And they can't get out because they signed a contact, and only transport out is through the company...

If you are so ignorant of history as to think that this won't happen, you're probably 17 (at least mentally) and have a completely unjustifiably optimistic opinion of human nature.

It's not that I don't understand the theory by which this place would work.

It's that I think the theory is retarded, because it's only championed by sheltered contrarian jackasses who are at a rebellious age but too pussy to risk their inheritance by becoming Marxists, and therefore pissy because those guys get all the chicks.

Diogenes The Cynic: PacManDreaming: "Blueseed expects its offshore seastead will bypass U.S. immigration and business restrictions to draw entrepreneurs from around the world allow Mexican pirates to work near Silicon Valley infiltrate and rob everyone on board."

Except the savings they would have from low taxes would allow them to own pretty impressive arms. Plus, without the regulations on weapons ownership we have in the U.S. they could arm themselves individually well enough so that any attack on them would be pointless suicide.

And what happens the first time two guys get in a running gun battle over a woman or one playing loud music late at night, or theft, or whatever?

I'm sure a grenade launcher and full-auto drum magazines will bring a great deal of calm and clarity to the ensuing discussion...

Once again, you show such a dim understanding of human nature that I wonder if most libertarians aren't a touch autistic.

Or is it that you guys think you're really so much better than the test of humanity? That it's just "the biggest losers in society" who are holding you back from utopia?

Jesus, you're just like every other spoiled brat who was born on third base and think you hit a triple...

This is not meant for millionaires. anyone moving abroad for tax reasons would still have to pay a hefty expatriation tax or risk having all of their assets in reach of the US government sized.

I think the keywords are the bit about hightech workers and the lack of visas. This is a way to outsources work to offshore 'islands' and not having to afhere to any sort of regulation. I foresee a scenario where a bunch of Asian and eastern European workers are trapped in the cramped quarters of a rusting hulk unable to leave since they don't have visas to enter the US and the company controls the only ways on and off the floating hell-hole and the indentured workers would have to first work of the price of their passage home which would be hard since they also have to pay the company dearly for food and water which has to be imported form the mainland as well as for their rooms and and anything else they need to survive. They would provide crappy call-center services and tech-support among other things.

The only positive thing in that scenario that I can see is the inevitable after more and more 'workers' die due to the greedy lack of safety standards they would eventually rise up in revolt, take over the ship and start cursing the costs of America as pirates of opportunity until they are finally brought down by the US navy in a bloody battle. There might even be some crucifications and an "I am Spartacus!" moment.

In fact now that think about it, I would watch that movie.

Gyrfalcon: All those hippie communes in the 70's fell apart because it was all going to be peace and love man and none of those power trips, and when things didn't work any more; well, everyone went back to society to get paid for doing the work.

And about forty years later, after the hippies have grown old and their children who said "Well, DUH, what did you think would happen?" are having kids of their own who grow up without ever hearing the warnings, it becomes time to try it again (and fail, and have another generation learn by burning their hands off up to their armpits).

/And when all is said and done and the Brave New World begins, Where all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
//As surely as water shall wet us, as surely as fire shall burn, The Gods of the Copybook Headings shall with terror and slaughter return.

spiral_fishcake: Jaws_Victim: Weaver95: falcon176: spend 200 million to avoid paying 30 million in taxes

y'know...the easiest solution to all the world's problems is to simply push the reset button. think about it - if you are the 1%, the best move for you is to wipe out 90% or so of the world population. some sort of engineered plague or whatnot. you want the world to return to something similar to what europe looked like in the wake of the Black Death.

then you and your army of immunized goons and thugs could move in, 'save' the survivors and easily enslave them. you could build just about any type of society you wanted. you'd have plenty of room to expand. debts would be wiped out. no more taxes. A fresh start, if you will.

I wish I could just take your post for the joke it's meant to be.

So according to the article, the rich have decided they have plundered the country enough and want to start their own exclusive island with no rules?

Have at it. I'm sure it will work great for at least the first few years or decade.

And having a real life bioshock is not a great thing. Building a giant city with no rules on scientific limit or law except for the personal credibility of the richest people? You'll get great results but at the cost of everything that isn't money.

But is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? 'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.'

I laughed, helped a lot today. Some sick part of me ould love to see this grand idea play out, and the scientific advances of it, but i kow the outcome and its not worth it.

way south: Diogenes The Cynic: werekoala: I used to think this would be a great idea. Then I stopped being 17.

And at any rate, this sounds less like some utopian libertarian micronation, and more like a gimmicky condo.

Put it this way: who shovels the shiat? Both metaphorically and literally, any community of even moderate independence needs people to clean toilets, wash dishes, and take out the garbage.

More generally, who thinks that assembling all of the "malcontents" in an isolated and confined space is going to end well?

I don't think the people who are willing to leave home behind to be janitors on a rusting tub with zero worker protections are going to play nice with everyone. It will be interesting to see whether the underclass or the mercenaries will take over first...

And it speaks to the more general assumption that trips up the wannabe Rugged Individualist. They assume that all of the taxes and regulations and social programs are just bleeding-heart do-gooding run amok. When in reality, there are generally good and pragmatic reasons for the way things are done.

They get so focused on this BS vision they have been sold of how things could be if they weren't having so much stolen from them, that they completely lose the ability for critical thought, and realizing that if the answers were easy, we'd have implemented them long ago.

Iguess in that respect they are no different from any dogmatic cult, but it is really frustrating to watch them ignore the repeated evidence of history as to how bad things really do get for most people in the absence of social order. They want to believe that people act in enlightened self-interest. fark, if that were the case, communism would work!

The value of washing toilets would go up til someone would be willing to take the job. Pay isn't some static thing.

Durr.

I think this is the troublesome truth of the matter.
Its easier to find a garbageman or toilet washer that is willing to work under horrible conditions tha ...

So, you oppose people getting higher paid jobs because their new standards of living wouldn't be as good as yours?

And this thinking folks explains why most aid money gets wasted.

mat catastrophe: Diogenes The Cynic: mat catastrophe: If, after more than ten years, you still can't find 20,000 Libertarian assholes to take over farking New Hampshire, you might be biting off more than you can chew with floating sea-cities.

/farking Libertarians.

And yet they somehow have prevented authorities from issuing hundreds of parking tickets (copblock.com) they raised awareness about their small towns getting militarized with ridiculous tanks, and they did eliminate at least one tax already, and this is before the official move-in date.

Well, then, hot damn. All they have to do now is remove those pesky labor laws and it will be a paradise.

You want everything to get better overnight? It will take a lot of time and effort to roll back all of the annoyances the democratic/republican party instituted.

werekoala: Diogenes The Cynic: werekoala: I used to think this would be a great idea. Then I stopped being 17.

And at any rate, this sounds less like some utopian libertarian micronation, and more like a gimmicky condo.

Put it this way: who shovels the shiat? Both metaphorically and literally, any community of even moderate independence needs people to clean toilets, wash dishes, and take out the garbage.

More generally, who thinks that assembling all of the "malcontents" in an isolated and confined space is going to end well?

I don't think the people who are willing to leave home behind to be janitors on a rusting tub with zero worker protections are going to play nice with everyone. It will be interesting to see whether the underclass or the mercenaries will take over first...

And it speaks to the more general assumption that trips up the wannabe Rugged Individualist. They assume that all of the taxes and regulations and social programs are just bleeding-heart do-gooding run amok. When in reality, there are generally good and pragmatic reasons for the way things are done.

They get so focused on this BS vision they have been sold of how things could be if they weren't having so much stolen from them, that they completely lose the ability for critical thought, and realizing that if the answers were easy, we'd have implemented them long ago.

Iguess in that respect they are no different from any dogmatic cult, but it is really frustrating to watch them ignore the repeated evidence of history as to how bad things really do get for most people in the absence of social order. They want to believe that people act in enlightened self-interest. fark, if that were the case, communism would work!

The value of washing toilets would go up til someone would be willing to take the job. Pay isn't some static thing.

Durr.

No one is saying it's static. I'm saying it has always been cheaper for the rich and powerful to exploit the poor and powerless, than to pay them a fair m ...

But anything they get paid effectively IS the fair market wage.

And if you think horrible work conditions could continue to exist, remember its only government that enforces contracts through violence. No matter how bad it is in the military for example, most people aren't allowed to leave. Blackwater on the other hand allows contractors to quit.

And you resort to ad hominems. How cute. Its the refuge of the weak.

werekoala: Diogenes The Cynic: PacManDreaming: "Blueseed expects its offshore seastead will bypass U.S. immigration and business restrictions to draw entrepreneurs from around the world allow Mexican pirates to work near Silicon Valley infiltrate and rob everyone on board."

Except the savings they would have from low taxes would allow them to own pretty impressive arms. Plus, without the regulations on weapons ownership we have in the U.S. they could arm themselves individually well enough so that any attack on them would be pointless suicide.

And what happens the first time two guys get in a running gun battle over a woman or one playing loud music late at night, or theft, or whatever?

I'm sure a grenade launcher and full-auto drum magazines will bring a great deal of calm and clarity to the ensuing discussion...

Once again, you show such a dim understanding of human nature that I wonder if most libertarians aren't a touch autistic.

Or is it that you guys think you're really so much better than the test of humanity? That it's just "the biggest losers in society" who are holding you back from utopia?

Jesus, you're just like every other spoiled brat who was born on third base and think you hit a triple...

You deal with that problem once you get to it.

Dim understand of human psychology? Fark you. And at least I know my economics too.

You're probably some weak willed kid who never accomplished anything in his life. Bitter much?

Loki-L: This is not meant for millionaires. anyone moving abroad for tax reasons would still have to pay a hefty expatriation tax or risk having all of their assets in reach of the US government sized.

I think the keywords are the bit about hightech workers and the lack of visas. This is a way to outsources work to offshore 'islands' and not having to afhere to any sort of regulation. I foresee a scenario where a bunch of Asian and eastern European workers are trapped in the cramped quarters of a rusting hulk unable to leave since they don't have visas to enter the US and the company controls the only ways on and off the floating hell-hole and the indentured workers would have to first work of the price of their passage home which would be hard since they also have to pay the company dearly for food and water which has to be imported form the mainland as well as for their rooms and and anything else they need to survive. They would provide crappy call-center services and tech-support among other things.

The only positive thing in that scenario that I can see is the inevitable after more and more 'workers' die due to the greedy lack of safety standards they would eventually rise up in revolt, take over the ship and start cursing the costs of America as pirates of opportunity until they are finally brought down by the US navy in a bloody battle. There might even be some crucifications and an "I am Spartacus!" moment.

In fact now that think about it, I would watch that movie.

And you probably think history is a story of class struggles.

The fact is, it takes about 250k to work permanently in the U.S. without going through the humiliating experience of citizenship. This project would let people earn at American levels of income without the problems associated with international tax rates. In case you didn't know, foreigners have to pay income tax on money earned in America, and Americans abroad have to pay income taxes on money earned internationally.

Diogenes The Cynic: mat catastrophe: Diogenes The Cynic: mat catastrophe: If, after more than ten years, you still can't find 20,000 Libertarian assholes to take over farking New Hampshire, you might be biting off more than you can chew with floating sea-cities.

/farking Libertarians.

And yet they somehow have prevented authorities from issuing hundreds of parking tickets (copblock.com) they raised awareness about their small towns getting militarized with ridiculous tanks, and they did eliminate at least one tax already, and this is before the official move-in date.

Well, then, hot damn. All they have to do now is remove those pesky labor laws and it will be a paradise.

You want everything to get better overnight? It will take a lot of time and effort to roll back all of the annoyances the democratic/republican party instituted.

Like roads? And food inspections? And environmental protections? And banking regulation? Oh, wait, we've already gotten that and it's worked out totally OK, hasn't it?