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(CNN)   American nuns to Vatican: Bring it   (religion.blogs.cnn.com) divider line 162
    More: Interesting, special sessions, radical feminism, Vatican, guest speakers, Leadership Conference of Women Religious  
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6930 clicks; posted to Politics » on 01 Jun 2012 at 5:45 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-01 07:33:42 PM

Rent Party: fenianfark: Not to be pedantic, but sisters and nuns are not the same thing. Nuns are cloistered while sisters are not. There are also different vows.


The religious women in question are sisters, not nuns.

If you're going to be pedantic, you should at least be right about it.

Them's nuns. You call them "Sister suchandso."

Nun is what they are. Sister is how you refer to them.


The term has become interchangeable in society in general, but there is a historical difference. It more irks me that journalists use the terms willy-nilly more than anything. It's the same thing with the terms evangelical or fundamentalist.

Link
 
2012-06-01 07:41:19 PM

Contents Under Pressure: The problem the nuns have is that the RCC took all their money and is taking their Social Security money. They'll be homeless if the RCC decides to boot them out.


Not if I, and my money, have anything to say about it.
 
2012-06-01 07:46:32 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: How many times does he say it's okay to kill fetuses?


Hmm...let's see.

/This assumes that Jesus is the same being as the Old Testament Jehova guy.
//Silly, I know. Who would believe that?
 
2012-06-01 07:50:24 PM

deeyablo: He knows about the time you cheated. He knows about the porn on your computer. He knows that you have lusted over, and over, and over again. He knows about your lies. He knows about the anger in your heart, your desire to hurt someone. He knows when you didn't give to someone who needed it, he knows about your lack of love. Knowing how much of his ministry was devoted to a struggle against that hypocrisy in his own time, what could you say to that stare?


I would say, "Hey Jesus. You know the cure for every form of cancer too. Why didn't you tell us?"
 
2012-06-01 08:02:14 PM

0Icky0: Why didn't you tell us?"



Free will
 
2012-06-01 08:04:26 PM

intelligent comment below: Free will


problem of evil
 
2012-06-01 08:06:06 PM
DNRTFA, but own personal rant...

My aunt is a nun, Sister of Mercy, and she is da bomb! Was a missionary in Chile during the Pinochet era, (had friends jailed and killed) has run homes for "unwed mothers" (Catholic Church term) now works for Catholic Charities, and is just in general one of the coolest people ever. She is completely pro-birth control and pro-choice, because she has seen what the alternative is, can put away more than a few beers, and is a wicked Euchre player. She is probably the most decent and honorable, yet mellow person, I have ever encountered. The Church should be honoring people like this for actually living the words of The Sermon on the Mount.

The hypocrisy of the Catholic Church forces them to vilify those who are their best example
 
2012-06-01 08:09:23 PM

fenianfark: Rent Party: fenianfark: Not to be pedantic, but sisters and nuns are not the same thing. Nuns are cloistered while sisters are not. There are also different vows.


The religious women in question are sisters, not nuns.

If you're going to be pedantic, you should at least be right about it.

Them's nuns. You call them "Sister suchandso."

Nun is what they are. Sister is how you refer to them.

The term has become interchangeable in society in general, but there is a historical difference. It more irks me that journalists use the terms willy-nilly more than anything. It's the same thing with the terms evangelical or fundamentalist.

Link


Here is a little factoid. Usage trumps historical roots so your point is moot.
 
2012-06-01 08:13:11 PM

Uzzah: thatboyoverthere: Don't mess with the Amercian Nuns. I sure as hell wish they were in charge of the Church. I thinks it helps they are so seperated by the group think that happens in the Vatican.

Good on them for sticking up for themselves, but don't kid yourself. The Vatican is not going to be pushed around by: 1. Americans; 2. nuns (i.e. females), and 3. certainly not American females. Unless they have real deft touch and know when to back down gracefully, they're going to find themselves on the excommunication side of the bell, book, and candle.

That being said, I could see a group of excommunicated nuns forming an Americanized Catholic schism, focusing on social justice (the Jesus part) and downplaying a lot of social conservatism (the Paul part) -- taking the reforms of Vatican II even further. I could see that kind of a church being very attractive to a very wide swath of American catholics.


Look up the Catholic Workers.

You don't even need to be Catholic to join.

As for a new sect, the first time I mentioned I was a recovering Catholic someone on Fark told me I was an Episcopal who just didn't know it yet. Heh.

But when you're so tied to RC it's really hard to fully leave. If I got rid of all Catholicism from my life I'd have hardly any family traditions left (Polish). So I will still go to church on Ash Wednesday and have a meatless Christmas eve with wafers being broken because... I can't not, I guess.

No collection plate money though. That goes straight into the box to help the poor instead.
 
2012-06-01 08:16:24 PM
You guys don't know how the catholic church is run.

Ancient Belief in Worldwide dedication to boy farking

Kinda like NAMBLA but with history on their side.

You need to refine your boy farking skills which is done within the Archdiocese. This is how the pedo's lure them in so they can make their bibles. Every catholic knows this.

Needless to say the link is NSFW. Unless you are priest or work as professional pedo.
 
2012-06-01 08:20:44 PM

Mike Chewbacca: TheOther: Mike Chewbacca: Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: Debeo Summa Credo: There's already an "American Catholic Church" that is much more progressive in it's views on certain topics. It hasn't really taken off.

What? Episcopalians? There's a ton of us.

No, see, Episcopalians are the American Church of Englanders, Catholic wannabees, which is just the Catholic church except you can divorce.

Actually, they're Catholic don'twannabes.


Not around here.
 
2012-06-01 08:21:09 PM
First off, the "tax-exempt" status of churches doesn't work like you think. Churches aren't making any significant profit that would be worth taxing.

Property tax

FTFA: Pope Benedict XVI, a theologian by training, was the head of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith for decades before he was elevated to papacy. In interviews conducted while he held that earlier post, he spoke often about growing the church by pruning - becoming smaller but more devout before expanding.

Doesn't this sound a bit like the GOP method? Will these nuns be called CINOs?
 
2012-06-01 08:21:37 PM

SharkInfested: DNRTFA, but own personal rant...

My aunt is a nun, Sister of Mercy, and she is da bomb! Was a missionary in Chile during the Pinochet era, (had friends jailed and killed) has run homes for "unwed mothers" (Catholic Church term) now works for Catholic Charities, and is just in general one of the coolest people ever. She is completely pro-birth control and pro-choice, because she has seen what the alternative is, can put away more than a few beers, and is a wicked Euchre player. She is probably the most decent and honorable, yet mellow person, I have ever encountered. The Church should be honoring people like this for actually living the words of The Sermon on the Mount.

The hypocrisy of the Catholic Church forces them to vilify those who are their best example


Tell her thank you for me the next time you see her if you don't mind.

The only problem with people like your aunt that I've met is that they're humble almost to a fault. It's what following the Beatitudes means, don't get me wrong. But the dogmatic douchebags are so damn loud

One of the NYTimes op ed writers has been doing a good job of speaking for them - rather letting their work speak for itself - at least.

The Catholic seminary in Detroit is surrounded on three sides by an awful hard hit neighborhood and sheltered from it. I was so happy when a new priest in our church did a whole sermon on that and then started to work to make it better. He won't rise very far in the hierarchy but goddammit that should be the most important thing...
 
2012-06-01 08:28:07 PM

dletter: I think the Vatican is looking at U.S. movies to determine what Nunery is like in the U.S. now:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x642]


If the nuns had been like that I might have not stopped going to church in my teens.
 
2012-06-01 08:29:22 PM

mongbiohazard: dletter: I think the Vatican is looking at U.S. movies to determine what Nunery is like in the U.S. now:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x642]

If the nuns had been like that I might have not stopped going to church in my teens.


Gorgeous. What is with her hips, though?
 
2012-06-01 08:39:12 PM

Sabyen91: fenianfark: Rent Party: fenianfark: Not to be pedantic, but sisters and nuns are not the same thing. Nuns are cloistered while sisters are not. There are also different vows.


The religious women in question are sisters, not nuns.

If you're going to be pedantic, you should at least be right about it.

Them's nuns. You call them "Sister suchandso."

Nun is what they are. Sister is how you refer to them.

The term has become interchangeable in society in general, but there is a historical difference. It more irks me that journalists use the terms willy-nilly more than anything. It's the same thing with the terms evangelical or fundamentalist.

Link

Here is a little factoid. Usage trumps historical roots so your point is moot.



I could care less if people in general conflate the terms. I care more that journalists are misusing terms that have different meanings in Catholicism. It's sloppy. If you or others use the terms I don't really care, I just hold journalists to a higher standard. Like I noted earlier, evangelical and fundamentalist are thrown around with no regard to their actual meanings.

Link


Link

/Probably seems silly, but I hate misuse of terms in journalism
 
2012-06-01 08:42:16 PM

SharkInfested: DNRTFA, but own personal rant...

My aunt is a nun, Sister of Mercy, and she is da bomb! Was a missionary in Chile during the Pinochet era, (had friends jailed and killed) has run homes for "unwed mothers" (Catholic Church term) now works for Catholic Charities, and is just in general one of the coolest people ever. She is completely pro-birth control and pro-choice, because she has seen what the alternative is, can put away more than a few beers, and is a wicked Euchre player. She is probably the most decent and honorable, yet mellow person, I have ever encountered. The Church should be honoring people like this for actually living the words of The Sermon on the Mount.

The hypocrisy of the Catholic Church forces them to vilify those who are their best example


My Catholic school was run by the Sisters of Mercy. They either walked from their house to 6am mass or piled in an old beater of a station wagon. This was in stark contrast to the church priest with their cleaning service and new Caddy. I learned from an early age that the women of the church did the real work and the hierarchy was full of shiat. So FU Pope Palpatine
 
2012-06-01 08:43:30 PM

fenianfark: Sabyen91: fenianfark: Rent Party: fenianfark: Not to be pedantic, but sisters and nuns are not the same thing. Nuns are cloistered while sisters are not. There are also different vows.


The religious women in question are sisters, not nuns.

If you're going to be pedantic, you should at least be right about it.

Them's nuns. You call them "Sister suchandso."

Nun is what they are. Sister is how you refer to them.

The term has become interchangeable in society in general, but there is a historical difference. It more irks me that journalists use the terms willy-nilly more than anything. It's the same thing with the terms evangelical or fundamentalist.

Link

Here is a little factoid. Usage trumps historical roots so your point is moot.


I could care less if people in general conflate the terms. I care more that journalists are misusing terms that have different meanings in Catholicism. It's sloppy. If you or others use the terms I don't really care, I just hold journalists to a higher standard. Like I noted earlier, evangelical and fundamentalist are thrown around with no regard to their actual meanings.

Link


Link

/Probably seems silly, but I hate misuse of terms in journalism


Down boy. I was just using your post as a reason to use factoid and moot with their current (and incorrect) usage.
 
2012-06-01 08:44:41 PM

fenianfark: I could care less if people in general conflate the terms.


Also, really? :)
 
2012-06-01 08:51:34 PM

Sabyen91: fenianfark: I could care less if people in general conflate the terms.

Also, really? :)


Talk about pedantic. ;)
 
2012-06-01 08:52:18 PM

Mike Chewbacca: Sabyen91: fenianfark: I could care less if people in general conflate the terms.

Also, really? :)

Talk about pedantic. ;)


I do NOT like pre-pubesce...oh.
 
2012-06-01 08:53:39 PM

Sabyen91: Mike Chewbacca: Sabyen91: fenianfark: I could care less if people in general conflate the terms.

Also, really? :)

Talk about pedantic. ;)

I do NOT like pre-pubesce...oh.


You two are alright.
 
2012-06-01 08:54:59 PM

fenianfark: Sabyen91: Mike Chewbacca: Sabyen91: fenianfark: I could care less if people in general conflate the terms.

Also, really? :)

Talk about pedantic. ;)

I do NOT like pre-pubesce...oh.

You two are alright.


There was a thread that devolved into talking about factoid and moot a few days ago. Late night Farking at its best.
 
2012-06-01 08:58:43 PM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: Uzzah: thatboyoverthere: Don't mess with the Amercian Nuns. I sure as hell wish they were in charge of the Church. I thinks it helps they are so seperated by the group think that happens in the Vatican.

Good on them for sticking up for themselves, but don't kid yourself. The Vatican is not going to be pushed around by: 1. Americans; 2. nuns (i.e. females), and 3. certainly not American females. Unless they have real deft touch and know when to back down gracefully, they're going to find themselves on the excommunication side of the bell, book, and candle.

That being said, I could see a group of excommunicated nuns forming an Americanized Catholic schism, focusing on social justice (the Jesus part) and downplaying a lot of social conservatism (the Paul part) -- taking the reforms of Vatican II even further. I could see that kind of a church being very attractive to a very wide swath of American catholics.

Look up the Catholic Workers.

You don't even need to be Catholic to join.

As for a new sect, the first time I mentioned I was a recovering Catholic someone on Fark told me I was an Episcopal who just didn't know it yet. Heh.

But when you're so tied to RC it's really hard to fully leave. If I got rid of all Catholicism from my life I'd have hardly any family traditions left (Polish). So I will still go to church on Ash Wednesday and have a meatless Christmas eve with wafers being broken because... I can't not, I guess.


No collection plate money though. That goes straight into the box to help the poor instead.


Exactly. I was brought up in the church. It is hard to explain why I just don't choose another religion that is more in line. In a weird way I am who I am because of my relationship with the church so there is no other religion that would fit.
 
2012-06-01 09:04:57 PM

Elandriel: Hmm. "Guys, there's a lot of focus on the sex scandals. Let's make up something stupid to distract everyone. I know, let's make the women look worse than we are."

"Sounds great!"


Except, of course, this makes the nuns look like better people than the Catholic leaders. And, of course, that brings the focus back around the other bad things the Church did, like, say covering up for MALE members of the Church who sexually abused children. And when that sort of thing happens, someone is just bound to point out that Cardinal Bernard Law, one of the worst offenders in the cover-up, a man who reassigned pedophiles hundreds of time, is one of the people who picked the current pope. And that just doesn't look good.
 
2012-06-01 09:23:29 PM

Sabyen91: mongbiohazard: dletter: I think the Vatican is looking at U.S. movies to determine what Nunery is like in the U.S. now:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x642]

If the nuns had been like that I might have not stopped going to church in my teens.

Gorgeous. What is with her hips, though?


Looks like small hips and a little bit of the square midwestern girl torso thing going on. Hey, if it bugs you just leave her all to me. :)
 
2012-06-01 09:24:34 PM

mongbiohazard: Sabyen91: mongbiohazard: dletter: I think the Vatican is looking at U.S. movies to determine what Nunery is like in the U.S. now:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x642]

If the nuns had been like that I might have not stopped going to church in my teens.

Gorgeous. What is with her hips, though?

Looks like small hips and a little bit of the square midwestern girl torso thing going on. Hey, if it bugs you just leave her all to me. :)


Only if she eats crackers in bed.
 
2012-06-01 09:25:51 PM
I guess the nuns are putting a lot of effort into opposing divorce, too, right? Y'know, because Jesus was very clear about what he thought of that:

"But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

But more seriously - The "pick and choose" Christianity argument cuts both ways. Church doctrine on abortion, euthanasia, etc. is VERY clear. So is Church teaching on caring for the poor and other aspects of "social justice." So on the one side we have a bunch of nuns who neglect Church doctrine on pro-life issues and focus on social justice, and on the other hand, we have a hierarchy that neglects Church doctrine on social justice in favor of pro-life issues.

I don't see how American nuns have any particular moral high ground if we're operating from the "you don't get to pick and choose parts of the faith to ignore/promote" argument.

Now, if American nuns were explicitly and directly making the argument that abortion, euthanasia etc. are morally permissible in the Catholic faith, that's a different matter, and that would be a debate unto itself. But I don't get the impression that's what they're doing - rather, they're quietly ignoring Church doctrine in those areas as they go about their works of charity, i.e. they're refusing to acknowledge that they actually ARE in dissent from Church doctrine. They should at least have the guts to be upfront about it.

One more nitpick for the sola scriptura crowd (i.e. the "b-b-b-but the Bible says" crowd): The New Testament wasn't collected and canonized for hundreds of years after the death of Jesus. Some texts that were proposed for inclusion for left out; others made the cut. The Catholic hierarchy (such as it was, back then) made the call for what got included and what didn't. In other words: the bishops were the ones who put the big fat "word of god" stamp on the New Testament... so citing the Bible as proof that the bishops have no authority to teach or clarify its content is a little... backward.

/Hell, the Gospels weren't even written for half a century after the crucifixion. HOW DID THEY CHURCH EXIST THEN?!?!?!
//Oh yeah. Catholicism is not the same thing as bible-thumping Baptists.
///Outside of the American South, anyway.
 
2012-06-01 09:26:20 PM

intelligent comment below: Guidette Frankentits: Q. How many references to nuns are made in the Bible?

A. Nun


Same number as the times Jesus condemned homosexuality.

Meanwhile Jesus mentions helping the poor and the dangers of greed literally hundreds of times

I hate these false prophets. The Catholic Church is an agent of Satan.


The protestants are the ones who espouse that idiotic prosperity gospel. Don't pretend like ANY individual Christian is blameless.
 
2012-06-01 09:28:47 PM

lamecomedian: But more seriously - The "pick and choose" Christianity argument cuts both ways. Church doctrine on abortion, euthanasia, etc. is VERY clear. So is Church teaching on caring for the poor and other aspects of "social justice." So on the one side we have a bunch of nuns who neglect Church doctrine on pro-life issues and focus on social justice, and on the other hand, we have a hierarchy that neglects Church doctrine on social justice in favor of pro-life issues.

I don't see how American nuns have any particular moral high ground if we're operating from the "you don't get to pick and choose parts of the faith to ignore/promote" argument.




Oh, bullshiat. If you read the New Testament you sure as hell SHOULD care a lot more about social justice than the bullshiat wedge issues of the OT. Unless you are just all Jewish and not really Christian at all.
 
2012-06-01 09:41:30 PM
The Catholic Church: the greatest spreader of AIDS and child molestation in the world.
 
2012-06-01 09:43:36 PM

Sabyen91: lamecomedian: But more seriously - The "pick and choose" Christianity argument cuts both ways. Church doctrine on abortion, euthanasia, etc. is VERY clear. So is Church teaching on caring for the poor and other aspects of "social justice." So on the one side we have a bunch of nuns who neglect Church doctrine on pro-life issues and focus on social justice, and on the other hand, we have a hierarchy that neglects Church doctrine on social justice in favor of pro-life issues.

I don't see how American nuns have any particular moral high ground if we're operating from the "you don't get to pick and choose parts of the faith to ignore/promote" argument.



Oh, bullshiat. If you read the New Testament you sure as hell SHOULD care a lot more about social justice than the bullshiat wedge issues of the OT. Unless you are just all Jewish and not really Christian at all.


That is really what it boils down to. I understand that the Catholic church holds certain positions on homosexuality because of tradition. I may not agree with it, but I understand why.

However, the failure to emphasize the actual biblical teachings on things such as poverty is a real shortcoming of the Catholic church. The USCCB may issue some statements, but those messages are not often heard in Sunday sermons

That is not even getting into the failure of many American Catholics to accept actual Catholic teachings such as the right of workers to unionize, the right to a fair wage, or the right to healthcare.
 
2012-06-01 09:46:36 PM

lamecomedian: doctrine


Part of the problem is the church keeps changing which stuff it cares about. No one in the church gave a rat's ass when the Borgias were screwing anyone that moved. But the second average people were found to be enjoying the same social liberty? Yeah premarital sex became a big deal.
 
2012-06-01 09:49:18 PM

fenianfark: That is really what it boils down to. I understand that the Catholic church holds certain positions on homosexuality because of tradition. I may not agree with it, but I understand why.

However, the failure to emphasize the actual biblical teachings on things such as poverty is a real shortcoming of the Catholic church. The USCCB may issue some statements, but those messages are not often heard in Sunday sermons

That is not even getting into the failure of many American Catholics to accept actual Catholic teachings such as the right of workers to unionize, the right to a fair wage, or the right to healthcare.


It is pretty easy to do for the rank and file because the Bishops and Cardinals make a big stink about not giving pro-choice political candidates communion but ignore the Church's own teaching on Just War Doctrine. There were no threats against Catholic politicians when they voted for the Iraq War even though the Vatican said it was not a just war. They emphasize things that are Old Testament and don't bother with what Jesus actually said. It is maddening.
 
2012-06-01 10:17:36 PM

susansto-helit: Grand_Moff_Joseph: "The Vatican report said that at an annual gathering of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, guest speakers who preached "radical feminism" went unchallenged. The report also said the nuns were too focused on social justice and not enough on opposing abortion, euthanasia and same-sex marriage."

*emphasis mine

So, in other words, they were focused too much on being actual Christians, and too little on being unofficial mouthpieces for the right wing.

I wonder how many states could close their budget gaps if they sent back-dated tax bills to each diocese?

I'm pretty sure something in my brain broke when I read that bit of the article. I'm a godless heathen and their sheer self-serving arrogance and anti-Christian stance offended me. I don't even have a dog in this fight and they pissed me off.


They're patriarchal fundamentalist catholics. They hit one of the many trifectas of asshole-itude. I'd be suprised and more than a little concerned if they DIDN'T piss you off as an atheist.
 
2012-06-01 10:56:40 PM

Cythraul: Nadie_AZ: This pope is going to go down as one of the most corrupt they've had. And they've had a lot of em. Damn this dude is dirty.

I'm not so sure about that. Wasn't there a Pope that was thought to be a secret Satan worshiper, and regularly hosted orgies?


That would be "most of them".

intelligent comment below: Guidette Frankentits: Q. How many references to nuns are made in the Bible?

A. Nun


Same number as the times Jesus condemned homosexuality.

Meanwhile Jesus mentions helping the poor and the dangers of greed literally hundreds of times

I hate these false prophets. The Catholic Church is an agent of Satan.


I blame Paul, cheifly.
 
2012-06-01 11:05:55 PM

Sabyen91: fenianfark: That is really what it boils down to. I understand that the Catholic church holds certain positions on homosexuality because of tradition. I may not agree with it, but I understand why.

However, the failure to emphasize the actual biblical teachings on things such as poverty is a real shortcoming of the Catholic church. The USCCB may issue some statements, but those messages are not often heard in Sunday sermons

That is not even getting into the failure of many American Catholics to accept actual Catholic teachings such as the right of workers to unionize, the right to a fair wage, or the right to healthcare.

It is pretty easy to do for the rank and file because the Bishops and Cardinals make a big stink about not giving pro-choice political candidates communion but ignore the Church's own teaching on Just War Doctrine. There were no threats against Catholic politicians when they voted for the Iraq War even though the Vatican said it was not a just war. They emphasize things that are Old Testament and don't bother with what Jesus actually said. It is maddening.


AD 312 - Constantine put Jesus on the banners of his conquering army and the Christians ate it up for political gain. 900 years later they're still farking that chicken.
 
2012-06-02 01:42:01 AM
COME AT ME, PO!
 
2012-06-02 01:56:44 AM
padresteve.files.wordpress.com

Send in the nuns!
 
2012-06-02 03:06:53 AM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: SharkInfested: DNRTFA, but own personal rant...

My aunt is a nun, Sister of Mercy, and she is da bomb! Was a missionary in Chile during the Pinochet era, (had friends jailed and killed) has run homes for "unwed mothers" (Catholic Church term) now works for Catholic Charities, and is just in general one of the coolest people ever. She is completely pro-birth control and pro-choice, because she has seen what the alternative is, can put away more than a few beers, and is a wicked Euchre player. She is probably the most decent and honorable, yet mellow person, I have ever encountered. The Church should be honoring people like this for actually living the words of The Sermon on the Mount.

The hypocrisy of the Catholic Church forces them to vilify those who are their best example

Tell her thank you for me the next time you see her if you don't mind.

The only problem with people like your aunt that I've met is that they're humble almost to a fault. It's what following the Beatitudes means, don't get me wrong. But the dogmatic douchebags are so damn loud

One of the NYTimes op ed writers has been doing a good job of speaking for them - rather letting their work speak for itself - at least.

The Catholic seminary in Detroit is surrounded on three sides by an awful hard hit neighborhood and sheltered from it. I was so happy when a new priest in our church did a whole sermon on that and then started to work to make it better. He won't rise very far in the hierarchy but goddammit that should be the most important thing...


Will thank her for you, do it all the time on my own behalf. Our family always has Christmas dinner at the convent, and believe me, there are always cocktails! Usually the Bishop shows up, and he is a hoot. Also doing the real work while trying to dodge the idiocy of the 'party line"

All jokes aside, having been raised as a Catholic is such a conundrum. There are so many people (like my aunt) doing real work for social justice, which is something i value about Catholicism, but the Vatican seems to constantly undermine what is best about the Church. Is hard to reconcile the real work on the ground with the idiocy the Vatican spews


tartie_pants She went to the same high school that I (and my mother and four sisters) did - run by the Sisters of Mercy. She joined up after HS graduation. The nuns lived in the convent which was smack dab in the middle of the high school.

And yes, the nuns do the real work, without recognition from The Church. They know damn well how much misery the no contraception rule has caused poor women, and damn skippy they should be making their much more informed voices heard
 
2012-06-02 03:28:26 AM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Cythraul: ginandbacon: There's not much they can do if they stay in the Church. It's sad.

Maybe they can splinter from the Catholic church and form a matriarchal type of Christian church. You know, like the Catholic church, only with a more feminine touch.

I'm speaking from very limited experience, so feel free to correct me if needed:

On a recent trip to London, I went to Sunday services twice - once at Westminster Abbey, and again at a little local church near the hotel. Both times, I thoroughly enjoyed the service, and found the sermons to be engaging and extremely relevant. I left feeling a lot like the church you describe above - more matriarchal than authoritarian, almost with a lighter touch.

...but maybe I'm just looking at it as an outsider...*shrugs*


Westminster Abbey is of the Church of England, which is not part of the Roman Catholic Church, but rather of the Anglican Communion. The Episcopal Church is part of the Anglican Communion, though the relationship is complicated.
 
2012-06-02 03:30:47 AM

Sabyen91: fenianfark: Rent Party: fenianfark: Not to be pedantic, but sisters and nuns are not the same thing. Nuns are cloistered while sisters are not. There are also different vows.


The religious women in question are sisters, not nuns.

If you're going to be pedantic, you should at least be right about it.

Them's nuns. You call them "Sister suchandso."

Nun is what they are. Sister is how you refer to them.

The term has become interchangeable in society in general, but there is a historical difference. It more irks me that journalists use the terms willy-nilly more than anything. It's the same thing with the terms evangelical or fundamentalist.

Link

Here is a little factoid. Usage trumps historical roots so your point is moot.


So, what you are saying is the bible is a historical document that we don't have to follow because current morals trump historical useage?
 
2012-06-02 03:47:44 AM

Contents Under Pressure: The problem the nuns have is that the RCC took all their money and is taking their Social Security money. They'll be homeless if the RCC decides to boot them out.


The 1980s and 1990s saw a huge campaign in Catholic parishes to fund retirement homes for the nuns. No provision was made for the nuns' retirement, and they could not set up savings accounts because their vow of poverty was taken more seriously than the priests'.
 
2012-06-02 03:54:49 AM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: Uzzah: thatboyoverthere: Don't mess with the Amercian Nuns. I sure as hell wish they were in charge of the Church. I thinks it helps they are so seperated by the group think that happens in the Vatican.

Good on them for sticking up for themselves, but don't kid yourself. The Vatican is not going to be pushed around by: 1. Americans; 2. nuns (i.e. females), and 3. certainly not American females. Unless they have real deft touch and know when to back down gracefully, they're going to find themselves on the excommunication side of the bell, book, and candle.

That being said, I could see a group of excommunicated nuns forming an Americanized Catholic schism, focusing on social justice (the Jesus part) and downplaying a lot of social conservatism (the Paul part) -- taking the reforms of Vatican II even further. I could see that kind of a church being very attractive to a very wide swath of American catholics.

Look up the Catholic Workers.

You don't even need to be Catholic to join.

As for a new sect, the first time I mentioned I was a recovering Catholic someone on Fark told me I was an Episcopal who just didn't know it yet. Heh.

But when you're so tied to RC it's really hard to fully leave. If I got rid of all Catholicism from my life I'd have hardly any family traditions left (Polish). So I will still go to church on Ash Wednesday and have a meatless Christmas eve with wafers being broken because... I can't not, I guess.

No collection plate money though. That goes straight into the box to help the poor instead.


Strangely enough, every Episcopal parish with a priest celebrates Ash Wednesday with the Imposition of Ashes. I remember sharing the oplatek at my parish last year -- I don't remember if it was consecrated or if it was simply given out as a piece of bread.
 
2012-06-02 04:47:22 AM
They're actually telling the nuns to be more like Rick Santorum? To Hell with them.
 
2012-06-02 05:51:36 AM

tartie_pants: Exactly. I was brought up in the church. It is hard to explain why I just don't choose another religion that is more in line. In a weird way I am who I am because of my relationship with the church so there is no other religion that would fit.


That might explain something. I went UU a couple of years ago (raised RC, but I started feeling alienated from it at a young age), and I had to literally drag my husband to get him to go (I know, I know, but we were new to the area, and he needed to meet new people), and I didn't quite understand his trepidation until he explained it: he said that the UU church felt "wrong" (it's actually based in Judeo-Christian beliefs), but it was so different (we have atheists and pagans!) that as "religious" experience went, it didn't make any sense and set his religious sensibilities off-balance.

Not that I didn't get my fair share of indoctrination, though. I, for instance, think there's nothing wrong with atheism, but every time one of my friends tells me that they are atheist, I get this weird twinge in the back of my head. Like I'm suddenly supposed to shun them or help them or something. And I know immediately that the little twinge is absolutely wrong, but I can't get rid of it no matter how many people I love and respect say they are atheist. It's my problem, but I admit, it's weird.
 
2012-06-02 06:05:15 AM

herrDrFarkenstein: Sabyen91: fenianfark: That is really what it boils down to. I understand that the Catholic church holds certain positions on homosexuality because of tradition. I may not agree with it, but I understand why.

However, the failure to emphasize the actual biblical teachings on things such as poverty is a real shortcoming of the Catholic church. The USCCB may issue some statements, but those messages are not often heard in Sunday sermons

That is not even getting into the failure of many American Catholics to accept actual Catholic teachings such as the right of workers to unionize, the right to a fair wage, or the right to healthcare.

It is pretty easy to do for the rank and file because the Bishops and Cardinals make a big stink about not giving pro-choice political candidates communion but ignore the Church's own teaching on Just War Doctrine. There were no threats against Catholic politicians when they voted for the Iraq War even though the Vatican said it was not a just war. They emphasize things that are Old Testament and don't bother with what Jesus actually said. It is maddening.

AD 312 - Constantine put Jesus on the banners of his conquering army and the Christians ate it up for political gain. 900 years later they're still farking that chicken.


Yup, it was the 4th Century where Christian Orthodoxy overturned Jesus' 2 Commandments as well as the Mosaic 6th Commandment and started KILLING PEOPLE IN JESUS' NAME.

Its the monastic traditions, particularly those that maintain some type of ascetic dedication to humility, service, and piety, that keep revitalizing and justifying the Church's ongoing existence. These nuns are a big part of what is (or could be) right with the Church, but sadly the same kind of shortsighted hypocrisy that brought about the Reformation seems to be the defining trait of our current pope.

Throwing Matthew Fox and alot of the more panentheistic mystics, female priests, and Liberation theologians out of the church was Ol' Benedicto's main job back when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, chief inquisitor. The cardinals and bishops should really stop smoking PCP when selecting a new pope.
 
2012-06-02 06:22:38 AM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: That goes straight into the box to help the poor instead.


If you believe that it really helps poor people, go for it.

I give my money to Planned Parenthood instead.
 
2012-06-02 07:51:41 AM
"American nuns come out swinging"

That was Ron Jeremy's best movie.
 
2012-06-02 09:31:29 AM
Dear nuns,

The Episcopal Church welcomes you. For real. All of the ceremony with none of the popery.
 
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