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(Phys Org2)   In a triumphant new breakthrough in science, researchers explain why Guinness bubbles sink to the bottom   (phys.org) divider line 49
    More: Hero, Guinness, vortexes, mathematicians, representative samples, researchers explain, industrial processes, arXiv, nitrogen  
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9261 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 May 2012 at 7:58 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-30 07:03:19 AM  
Can they explain why it taste like crap?
 
2012-05-30 08:02:30 AM  
www.yahooserious.com

Approves.
 
2012-05-30 08:04:41 AM  
The co2 nucleates off the nitrogen, which causes the bubbles, to rise to surface, then drop back down?
 
2012-05-30 08:05:56 AM  
Guiness is the most disgusting drink known to mankind, and I'm Irish.
 
2012-05-30 08:08:33 AM  
Still no explination as to when we will get this:

www.dana60.com
 
2012-05-30 08:10:11 AM  

henryhill: Guiness is the most disgusting drink known to mankind, and I'm Irish.


What, don't ALL Irish drink mud, as long as it has alcohol in it??

(I keed, I keed...)
 
2012-05-30 08:13:56 AM  

Colin O'Scopy: henryhill: Guiness is the most disgusting drink known to mankind, and I'm Irish.

What, don't ALL Irish drink mud, as long as it has alcohol in it??

(I keed, I keed...)



Its a toss up between mud and hand sanitizer if there is nothing else to drink.

/Irish
 
2012-05-30 08:14:28 AM  
It's a vortex. Bubbles are rising in the middle, where you can't see them. This isn't new.
 
2012-05-30 08:14:43 AM  
A couple grad students did this years ago.
 
2012-05-30 08:17:38 AM  
University of Limerick? That's just adorable.
 
2012-05-30 08:22:15 AM  
Old news is really farking old.
 
2012-05-30 08:25:26 AM  

wrenchboy: Its a toss up between mud and hand sanitizer if there is nothing else to drink.


I think I'm starting to figure out why Americans like crap. It's our drinking taboo combined with teenage derp. Drinking is "bad" so teens do it to be "bad". They drink anything they can get their hands on, from HS all the way through their twenties. By the time they grow out of being stupid drunks they're used to the flavor.
 
2012-05-30 08:25:50 AM  
Just came to see if people were still complaining over the bar towel. You people never fail to deliver.
 
2012-05-30 08:26:53 AM  

BillCo: Can they explain why it taste like crap?


awww, I like Guinness; of course I like pretty much every other stout ever brewed better......
 
2012-05-30 08:31:54 AM  
Straight Dope discussed this back in 2000... Linky
 
2012-05-30 08:34:14 AM  

gtfan92: University of Limerick? That's just adorable.


Dissertations tend to be short and bawdy.
 
2012-05-30 08:40:41 AM  
"as a team of mathematicians from the University of Limerick"

Paging MaxxLarge...paging MaxxLarge...
 
GOB
2012-05-30 08:52:24 AM  

BillCo: Can they explain why it taste like crap?


Try the foreign extra, it's amazing.
 
2012-05-30 09:43:21 AM  

Voiceofreason01: BillCo: Can they explain why it taste like crap?

awww, I like Guinness; of course I like pretty much every other stout ever brewed better......


If you haven't, try Murphy's Irish Stout (from the can obviously).

-I'm not a stout fan myself, but this one is good even if you don't like stout beers.
 
2012-05-30 09:45:57 AM  

gtfan92: University of Limerick? That's just adorable.


You can major in stab, I hear, but generally I support any science that uses the term "anti-pint". It sounds like what might power an Irish starship. "Feck all out here, Ardal. Might as well pull over for a quick one".
 
2012-05-30 09:49:20 AM  

dragonchild: wrenchboy: Its a toss up between mud and hand sanitizer if there is nothing else to drink.

I think I'm starting to figure out why Americans like crap. It's our drinking taboo combined with teenage derp. Drinking is "bad" so teens do it to be "bad". They drink anything they can get their hands on, from HS all the way through their twenties. By the time they grow out of being stupid drunks they're used to the flavor.


I didn't drink til college and it wasn't to "be bad." This just in, people taste things differently. Anyways, isn't this really old news? I read about this 3 years ago when I investigated why there was a random ball in there.
 
2012-05-30 10:21:06 AM  

BillCo: Can they explain why it taste like crap?


Taste is just that, a matter of taste. Now shut your filthy hole.
 
2012-05-30 10:37:22 AM  
When I worked at a microbrewery, I used to hear all sorts of derp about Nitrogen taps. People liked to sit there with a buzz and speculate about how it works, and why the beer looks the way it does when poured. Rarely did they ever bother asking, but who can blame them - it's more fun to be a buzzed pseudo scientist.

Some of the derp I've heard:
"Nitrogen is a smaller molecule, and since there's no CO2 in the beer, the smaller N2 molecule makes smaller bubbles."
"Nitrogen stays in the beer longer, so it has thicker foam and longer lasting head."
"Nitrogen sticks to the CO2, weighing the bubbles down."
...and more that I can't recall...

In reality, it's a mildly carbonated beer (carbonated to about 1.5 volumes of CO2, depending on the setup), pushed through a diffuser in the faucet that has 5 small holes in it at high pressure, focused through a nozzle, and into a glass. The diffuser knocks out some of the dissolved CO2 from the beer, creating thick fine foam. There isn't actually any Nitrogen to speak of dissolved in the beer itself; it's used merely to push the beer at high pressure since it's an inert gas, and does not dissolve easily in beer at that pressure/temperature. If you were to use CO2 to push the beer at that pressure, it would force carbonate the beer to the point where you would just get a glass of foam with each pour.
 
2012-05-30 10:45:08 AM  
lovehateadvertising.com
 
2012-05-30 10:57:17 AM  
Think of all the brain cells that were sacrificed to pursue this reasearch.
 
2012-05-30 10:59:39 AM  

henryhill: Guiness is the most disgusting drink known to mankind, and I'm Irish.


Too sweet for you?
 
2012-05-30 11:05:12 AM  

henryhill: Guiness is the most disgusting drink known to mankind, and I'm Irish.


Troll hard 2: Troll Harder

/This shiat ain't new. Every few years there's a BREAKTHROUGH in bubble research. I wish someone would just write in down so they wouldn't have to keep researching it.
 
2012-05-30 11:32:37 AM  

tankjr: Troll hard 2: Troll Harder


While I think that "most disgusting drink known to mankind" is probably an exaggeration, It's personally overrated as a beer for me. It's really good for what it is, a dry, light, accessible, session-able stout. it's just that that particular style of beer isn't for me. Like the BMC beers. Bud Lite and Miller Lite are really good examples of the American Light Lager style of beer, which in general isn't for me.

I'm not a beer snob, so I think people should drink whatever makes them happy - For me, Guinness is exceptionally "meh."
 
2012-05-30 11:39:23 AM  

dragonchild: wrenchboy: Its a toss up between mud and hand sanitizer if there is nothing else to drink.

I think I'm starting to figure out why Americans like crap. It's our drinking taboo combined with teenage derp. Drinking is "bad" so teens do it to be "bad". They drink anything they can get their hands on, from HS all the way through their twenties. By the time they grow out of being stupid drunks they're used to the flavor.


I remember watching a short docu about American detergent salesmen that were encouraged to drink their product in order to show that it didn't contain any harmful substances. The salesmen did so reluctantly because if you dropped a cap from a PET bottle into it, it bubbled away. Since this was a docu made by Swedish television they continued showing rural Americans drinking weird stuff, like solvents...
 
2012-05-30 11:46:47 AM  
There was a math scholar from Limerick
who found Guinness Stout's sinking bubble trick.
The shape of the glass,
the mixture of gas,
All distract from a drink that makes people sick.
 
2012-05-30 12:41:32 PM  

Colin O'Scopy: henryhill: Guiness is the most disgusting drink known to mankind, and I'm Irish.

What, don't ALL Irish drink mud, as long as it has alcohol in it??

(I keed, I keed...)


Guinness in Ireland is a very light and refreshing beer. It is only in America that we think because it is dark, that it must taste like burned coffee.

/ Guinness doesn't travel.
 
2012-05-30 12:58:56 PM  
I always thought it was shame.
 
2012-05-30 01:01:20 PM  

BillCo: Can they explain why it taste like crap?


henryhill: Guiness is the most disgusting drink known to mankind, and I'm Irish.


You're trying too hard.

/Great. Another day, another "The beer I like is MUCH better than the beer you like" thread.
 
2012-05-30 01:33:09 PM  

mjohnson71: /Great. Another day, another "The beer I like is MUCH better than the beer you like" thread.


So, can you honestly say that there's not some beers that you prefer the taste of over other beers?

People are allowed to have differences in taste.

As long as they're not looking down on you for liking what you like, what do you care if they don't like something you do?
 
2012-05-30 01:37:58 PM  
www.austinchronicle.com
 
2012-05-30 01:44:14 PM  

BillCo: Can they explain why it taste like crap?


You wanna know what tastes like crap? Try Dogfish Head Worldwide Stout. Roughly 20% for a 12-oz. bottle, this beer has the consistency of used motor oil. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the damn thing were brewed at a Jiffy Lube. It took me two and a half hours to finish one bottle. I even tried holding my nose and drinking it at the same time, and I could feel it sitting there on my tongue - just waiting, plotting. The only reason I ordered it in the first place was because it was on the list of beers I had to drink to get my my name on the wall of the bar.

***THAT*** is crap beer. Guinness, by comparison, is as if God brewed it himself.
 
2012-05-30 02:15:26 PM  

Fleet: BillCo: Can they explain why it taste like crap?

You wanna know what tastes like crap? Try Dogfish Head Worldwide Stout. Roughly 20% for a 12-oz. bottle, this beer has the consistency of used motor oil. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the damn thing were brewed at a Jiffy Lube. It took me two and a half hours to finish one bottle. I even tried holding my nose and drinking it at the same time, and I could feel it sitting there on my tongue - just waiting, plotting. The only reason I ordered it in the first place was because it was on the list of beers I had to drink to get my my name on the wall of the bar.

***THAT*** is crap beer. Guinness, by comparison, is as if God brewed it himself.


My experience with WWS was something similar. I like most of the Dogfish Head line, but I had to chase that down with another beer.

That being said, of all the stouts I've tried, I've liked most better than Guinness. It isn't a "crap beer" but the hype is bigger than the beer itself.
 
2012-05-30 02:16:55 PM  
Won't anyone think of the pub ales?

/that do the same thing...
 
2012-05-30 03:21:16 PM  

Fleet: this beer has the consistency of used motor oil.


The mark of a truly great stout
 
2012-05-30 03:21:42 PM  
 
2012-05-30 03:32:22 PM  
 
2012-05-30 05:10:41 PM  

moos: Won't anyone think of the pub ales?

/that do the same thing...

Any

beer poured through a nitrogen faucet at high pressure will do that.
 
2012-05-30 05:56:05 PM  

Bruxellensis: moos: Won't anyone think of the pub ales?

/that do the same thing...

Any beer poured through a nitrogen faucet at high pressure will do that.


yeah... they will..

we used to do up our regular porter with a 60/40 blend of nitrogen to CO2 carbonation and run it through a sparkler tap, called it the Nitro-porter, and people did indeed love it. and yes, it behaved just like a guiltiness, with a little extra creaminess from the nitro and the sparkler tap.

we no longer have a nitrogen generator though, so we can't readily do that anymore. the purpose of that nitrogen generator was to increase the pressure on the overall system because the draft trunk from the brewery of the pub is 75 feet long and goes up a standard building story. we replaced the head pressure with pnumatic draw pumps with a standard CO2 head space for the serving tank gas replacement. the nitrogen generator then became redundant. so it was removed and replaced with more CO2 tanks for the bottling line.

but the Nitrogen blend forced carbonation does come into real play. the CO2 in suspension does indeed nucleate off the nitrogen bubbles, and does play in the flavor. but the high pressure and the sparkler are key to all the fun with that type of presentation. and it is a slow draw because of the sparkler plate dispense.

this is not even mentioning the fun that comes with dealing with a beer engine with a sparkler tap.and live ale..
we mostly do a gravity feed off of firkins and min pins for firkin Fridays because the staff can't seem to wrap all the basic concepts of cask management around their wee little noggins.
 
2012-05-30 06:27:07 PM  

Cerebral Knievel: but the Nitrogen blend forced carbonation does come into real play. the CO2 in suspension does indeed nucleate off the nitrogen bubbles


From all of my research and years of serving (both at home and at the microbrewery) nitrogen-served beers, that conflicts with what I understand. Where did you hear that?

N2 isn't very soluble at all in beer at the temperature and pressure conditions in nitro taps. The tiny bubbles are from CO2, not N2. I know carbonating beer can change the flavor (carbonic acid, etc.), but does N2 actually contribute anything significant to the beer's flavor, with what little amount of it does dissolve into the liquid? I don't know everything there is to know about nitro taps, but in all my research and experience, I was lead to believe it didn't, and that that was a myth.
 
2012-05-30 07:37:21 PM  

Fleet: BillCo: Can they explain why it taste like crap?

You wanna know what tastes like crap? Try Dogfish Head Worldwide Stout. Roughly 20% for a 12-oz. bottle, this beer has the consistency of used motor oil. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the damn thing were brewed at a Jiffy Lube. It took me two and a half hours to finish one bottle. I even tried holding my nose and drinking it at the same time, and I could feel it sitting there on my tongue - just waiting, plotting. The only reason I ordered it in the first place was because it was on the list of beers I had to drink to get my my name on the wall of the bar.

***THAT*** is crap beer. Guinness, by comparison, is as if God brewed it himself.


I know that feel, I'm at 173 out of my 200.
 
2012-05-30 08:03:32 PM  

BillCo: Can they explain why it taste like crap?


Too much Worcester sauce in it.
 
2012-05-30 09:14:54 PM  
Science shmience

The bubbles sink cause they are heavily loaded with delicious darkness
 
2012-05-30 10:26:19 PM  

Bruxellensis: Cerebral Knievel: but the Nitrogen blend forced carbonation does come into real play. the CO2 in suspension does indeed nucleate off the nitrogen bubbles

From all of my research and years of serving (both at home and at the microbrewery) nitrogen-served beers, that conflicts with what I understand. Where did you hear that?

N2 isn't very soluble at all in beer at the temperature and pressure conditions in nitro taps. The tiny bubbles are from CO2, not N2. I know carbonating beer can change the flavor (carbonic acid, etc.), but does N2 actually contribute anything significant to the beer's flavor, with what little amount of it does dissolve into the liquid? I don't know everything there is to know about nitro taps, but in all my research and experience, I was lead to believe it didn't, and that that was a myth.


All I can tell you sir is that I can taste the difference... it's one of those intagables that could probably never be proven. but for me? yes, there was a remarkable lingering difference between the nitro porter and the standard porter. With the standard porter finishing chewy, and the the nitro finishing creamy.. the bubbles and the head being tighter and more compact.
physics say this shouldn't be so, but the evidence is there, and while these stories crop up every few years.

now granted... I feel the biggest key to Guinness's success is rampant marketing. from the schmaltz homey stuff to the out right Unbudwieser stuff.

Ive heard tales that American Guinness is a far removed product from the stuff in Dublin because " it doesn't travel well" but from my professional experience I know that major breweries go WELL OUT OF THEIR WAY to insure that the product made at the home brewery matches exactly what is made at the satellite breweries and that any stories of people saying it doesn't travel well are made by folks who have bought into the marketing. that the stuff is mana on earth, but the reason ou didn't like it was because you were so far away from Dublin, even though you may live it Philadelphia, and the stuff was brewed and packaged in Pottsville. (at the old PBR plant, next to the segrims wine coolers, I believe under management by Miller)

but you'll notice that Guinness defenders never blame the beer, the blame the taster and the distribution, Guinness is no different than bud, hell , I dont even think they actually brew in Dublin anymore honestly. the big Guinness brewery in Dublin is just a museum now.

If I may be so bold... the stuff reminds me of starbucks coffee.. over rated, ceratinly over priced, and generally just tastes burnt.

but hell, if it gets people in the door and tyring other, better things? well, Im more than happy to help someone take off the training wheels.
the stuff is good for what it is,
 
2012-05-31 10:26:01 AM  

Cerebral Knievel: All I can tell you sir is that I can taste the difference... it's one of those intagables that could probably never be proven. but for me? yes, there was a remarkable lingering difference between the nitro porter and the standard porter. With the standard porter finishing chewy, and the the nitro finishing creamy.. the bubbles and the head being tighter and more compact.
physics say this shouldn't be so, but the evidence is there, and while these stories crop up every few years.


You are certainly correct in that the bubbles are smaller, with a frothier head, but that's all CO2. So, you're not really wrong here, except that you're a bit confused about the gas. So, yes, physics really says this is so. A nitro beer does have a different texture, mainly because of two major factors: 1. they are carbonated to far lower volumes than standard beers, and 2. because the head is much finer, and reacts with the tongue in a different way. The CO2 is released from the beer when it passes through those five really small holes (like, you can't fit a toothpick through them) at very high pressure (should be around 30+/- PSI at the faucet). These small holes create many many small bubbles of CO2 knocked out of solution. If you carbonate the beer to more than 1.5 -1.7 volumes, you'll get too many small bubbles, and if you carbonate less than 1.5 or so, you'll get less small bubbles. Regardless, the texture, or mouthfeel, of the beer is perceived as smoother because of both the reasons mentioned above - lower carbonation, and smaller bubbles. This effects the reactions that occur on your tongue, giving a slightly different impression of the beer overall. Also, keep in mind that since these beers are carbonated to much lower volumes, there isn't as much carbonic acid present as there is in standard carbonated versions. This also makes a difference in mouthfeel and flavor.

I'll give you an example of something I tried at home after doing some reading that I didn't quite believe right away. To prove that there is very negligible-to-none N2 dissolved in nitro beers, try this: brew a beer as you normally would for that tap, carbonate it to about 1.5 volumes of CO2, then chill it to serving temperature, but leave it off gas in the meantime (other than to maintain 1.5 volumes of CO2). Then hook up the nitrogen (or beer gas), and serve a few pints immediately. You'll notice that the exact desired effect happens right away, before any N2 gets a remote chance of dissolving into the beer. This just shows that you are solely using the N2 to push the beer at higher pressures than you could with CO2, and that's because it doesn't dissolve in beer - otherwise, you'd have a waaaay over carbonated (nitrogenated?) beer if it did. The five holes are just a way to create the small bubbles, and the pressure is necessary to knock out the right amount of CO2 during pour. These nitrogen tap systems were invented to emulate the old beer engines that forced low-carbonated beers through small holes in the faucet. It's a systematic way to emulate Real Ale textures and effects, really.

Cerebral Knievel: now granted... I feel the biggest key to Guinness's success is rampant marketing. from the schmaltz homey stuff to the out right Unbudwieser stuff.


Absolutely 100% agreed. They own the exclusive publishing rights to world records, for FSM's sake!

Cerebral Knievel: Ive heard tales that American Guinness is a far removed product from the stuff in Dublin because " it doesn't travel well" but from my professional experience I know that major breweries go WELL OUT OF THEIR WAY to insure that the product made at the home brewery matches exactly what is made at the satellite breweries and that any stories of people saying it doesn't travel well are made by folks who have bought into the marketing. that the stuff is mana on earth, but the reason ou didn't like it was because you were so far away from Dublin, even though you may live it Philadelphia, and the stuff was brewed and packaged in Pottsville. (at the old PBR plant, next to the segrims wine coolers, I believe under management by Miller)

but you'll notice that Guinness defenders never blame the beer, the blame the taster and the distribution, Guinness is no different than bud, hell , I dont even think they actually brew in Dublin anymore honestly. the big Guinness brewery in Dublin is just a museum now.


Guinness is brewed all over the world, yet people still believe that it all comes from Ireland. The St. James' Gate brewery does brew the extract that gives it its tart finish (it's somewhat of a soured wort), then sends that to the satellite breweries to add to their wort. I've had Guinness on three continents, and they all tasted the same to me. So, anyone claiming to taste a difference is either influenced too much by their preconceptions/environment, or just regurgitating myths.

Cerebral Knievel: but hell, if it gets people in the door and tyring other, better things? well, Im more than happy to help someone take off the training wheels.
the stuff is good for what it is,


Sure. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just a light stout with a tart finish and creamy head. It's merely an amalgamation of 2-row pale malt, flaked barley, and roasted barley, with some added sour wort in the boil. Pretty simple. Yet, it's like a gateway beer for many people that shows them that they can like darker beers with bolder flavor than the BMC lineup. Once they enter the new world of beer, they can move on from Guinness, and try the really good stuff. I have no complaints with Guinness whatsoever.
 
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