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(CNBC)   Why can't we find competent skilled labor? Minimum wage is enough to live on, right?   (cnbc.com) divider line 241
    More: Obvious, employment agency, minimum wages, skilled workers  
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6303 clicks; posted to Business » on 29 May 2012 at 11:50 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-29 11:52:30 AM
Not this thread again, etc etc
 
2012-05-29 11:58:05 AM
Productivity is up, mobility is down. 100 people are funding the superPACs. Nothing to see here. GBTW
 
2012-05-29 12:01:13 PM
What article did you read Smitty?
 
2012-05-29 12:01:46 PM
Minimum wage is generally for *UNSKILLED* labor, I seem to recall. At least, back when I had a job that payed me minimum wage, it didn't require any actual specific skills.
 
2012-05-29 12:02:41 PM
Competent skilled labor isn't working for minimum wage. There's a difference between welders, heavy equipment operators, and other skilled trades and the pimply faced kid running the fryolator and the world weary 50something woman running the Walmart checkout register.
 
2012-05-29 12:06:07 PM
Talent goes where the money is. You're not going to hire skilled labor when you're paying peanuts. You WILL be able to hire the 19 year old kid that has the intelligence and skillset of a popcorn fart.

Guess who gets the job? Popcorn fart does because the bottom line this week is more important than having a guy to make you a shiatload of money for 20 years.
 
2012-05-29 12:06:55 PM
I've never worked for minimum wage. Not even when I worked at Burger King back in high school.

In any event, I'd like to hire an entry level C# programmer, but it's not easy finding one with the right background.
 
2012-05-29 12:07:21 PM

akula: Competent skilled labor isn't working for minimum wage. There's a difference between welders, heavy equipment operators, and other skilled trades and the pimply faced kid running the fryolator and the world weary 50something woman running the Walmart checkout register.


You've never been a graduate teaching assistant.
 
2012-05-29 12:12:50 PM

HempHead: You've never been a graduate teaching assistant.


What, going to make the argument that being a grad TA is skilled labor?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

/Has a master's
//Pretty darn close to a doctorate
///There's a fark-ton of people who want to teach college, you aren't that special, that means lower wages
 
2012-05-29 12:13:19 PM
I just wish my company would send me decent people that didnt think breaking a sweat was a medical condition.
 
2012-05-29 12:13:28 PM
Minimum wage isn't even bloody close, just to put that thought to bed in the initial few comments.

Ohio's minimum wage is $7.70, which is better than the federal minimum. Even if you assume that this person never takes a day off, pays no taxes, has no children, lives alone and lives life at the edges, it isn't enough.

7.70 an hour, multiplied by 40 hour weeks and the 52 week year is $16,016, or 1334.66 a month. Let's even say our created person owns their own car outright, has no credit card or student debt.

A cheap one-bedroom apartment here is $415 for a studio. Assuming they pay for water, average electric bill should be about $80. Health insurance, say it's the same as mine with no health issues, $130 a month. Gas, average driver of 1000 miles a month in a car with 24mpg average, so $153.

That's $778 gone of our initial $1334, and that's not including food, auto insurance, a telephone/internet to look for another job, or any of myriad other expenses.

Say $40 a month for a cell phone (Metro PCS standard), the basic internet/cable plan of $80 (Buckeye Cable) for some small amount of entertainment and enjoyment, $30 a month for auto/renter's insurance (State Farm), we're down to $406.

Now, food. Beans, rice, some meat every now and then, say $70 a week. That takes us down to $126 to cover literally every other incidental for the month. Hope like hell nothing breaks on the car, or you get sick, or you want to go on a date once in a while.

Is it any wonder people can't live on a minimum wage?
 
2012-05-29 12:16:17 PM

Sword and Shield: Is it any wonder people can't live on a minimum wage?


There's no argument that minimum wage isn't a living wage.

There is quite the discussion as to whether it 1) should be, and if it would be, then 2) if it would remain being so. The argument is along the lines of higher pay = fewer workers and more expensive products.

When it costs more, people buy less, whether it's gasoline, televisions, or labor.
 
2012-05-29 12:16:59 PM

akula: HempHead: You've never been a graduate teaching assistant.

What, going to make the argument that being a grad TA is skilled labor?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

/Has a master's
//Pretty darn close to a doctorate
///There's a fark-ton of people who want to teach college, you aren't that special, that means lower wages


You're going to make the argument that being a grad TA isn't skilled labor? Also, the biggest thing TAs do is free up time for professors who have to make the college bucket loads with research grants. I would argue they're worth a few dollars more than they make. I also find it interesting your argument is partially a jab at yourself given that you're presently barely more skilled than a TA.
 
2012-05-29 12:17:26 PM
Cue the Mitt Romney, WhyCan'tthePoorsJustBuyMoreMoney.jpeg.

/Mitt Romney is the gift that keeps on giving.
//Unless you were a laborer for a Bain-owned company in the 80s, that is.
 
2012-05-29 12:20:02 PM

akula: Sword and Shield: Is it any wonder people can't live on a minimum wage?

There's no argument that minimum wage isn't a living wage.

There is quite the discussion as to whether it 1) should be, and if it would be, then 2) if it would remain being so. The argument is along the lines of higher pay = fewer workers and more expensive products.

When it costs more, people buy less, whether it's gasoline, televisions, or labor.


What is the point of a minimum wage if it is not a living wage? All you're doing is slowing the bleeding in that case-your worker is still living with no margin for error, except now they might not qualify for government aid.
 
2012-05-29 12:20:41 PM
A truthful lament would be, "We can't find educated competent people willing to do the work of two people for the pittance we are willing to pay."

Those golden parachutes don't pay for themselves, you know!
 
2012-05-29 12:22:00 PM
The problem is these companies want you to show up ready to work, with years of experience. They have no interest in training you.

There is a company in Hookset (I think) New Hampshire that has been trying to hire 100 CNC machinists for quite awhile now. They have gone through about 900 applicants, and only hired about 75 people, according to a story in the Union Leader awhile back.

And it's the same story everytime you dig down into the details of these full-o-sheet companies complaining about the lack of skilled labor.
 
kab
2012-05-29 12:22:01 PM
If you can't live on the pay (given that said job is full time), then it's simply not worth doing.

If you're an employer who claims to not be able to find people, you're either a) paying too little, or b) unwilling to train.
 
2012-05-29 12:22:12 PM

Sword and Shield: Minimum wage isn't even bloody close, just to put that thought to bed in the initial few comments.

Ohio's minimum wage is $7.70, which is better than the federal minimum. Even if you assume that this person never takes a day off, pays no taxes, has no children, lives alone and lives life at the edges, it isn't enough.

7.70 an hour, multiplied by 40 hour weeks and the 52 week year is $16,016, or 1334.66 a month. Let's even say our created person owns their own car outright, has no credit card or student debt.

A cheap one-bedroom apartment here is $415 for a studio. Assuming they pay for water, average electric bill should be about $80. Health insurance, say it's the same as mine with no health issues, $130 a month. Gas, average driver of 1000 miles a month in a car with 24mpg average, so $153.

That's $778 gone of our initial $1334, and that's not including food, auto insurance, a telephone/internet to look for another job, or any of myriad other expenses.

Say $40 a month for a cell phone (Metro PCS standard), the basic internet/cable plan of $80 (Buckeye Cable) for some small amount of entertainment and enjoyment, $30 a month for auto/renter's insurance (State Farm), we're down to $406.

Now, food. Beans, rice, some meat every now and then, say $70 a week. That takes us down to $126 to cover literally every other incidental for the month. Hope like hell nothing breaks on the car, or you get sick, or you want to go on a date once in a while.

Is it any wonder people can't live on a minimum wage?


Since when was the minimum wage ever meant to allow someone to live by themselves?
 
2012-05-29 12:30:39 PM
Nobody is willing to do any training and they have unrealistic expectations. They want 5 years of experience, 2+ doing whatever specific tasks they will be doing at their prospective job, and they want it for 32k a year with no benefits at-will. The only shortage we have is of business who aren't obsessed with externalizing all the costs of obtaining well trained employees. If they start offering real money, scholarships, training, and incentives I bet workers would magically appear.
 
2012-05-29 12:30:41 PM

Guelph35: Sword and Shield: Minimum wage isn't even bloody close, just to put that thought to bed in the initial few comments.

Ohio's minimum wage is $7.70, which is better than the federal minimum. Even if you assume that this person never takes a day off, pays no taxes, has no children, lives alone and lives life at the edges, it isn't enough.

7.70 an hour, multiplied by 40 hour weeks and the 52 week year is $16,016, or 1334.66 a month. Let's even say our created person owns their own car outright, has no credit card or student debt.

A cheap one-bedroom apartment here is $415 for a studio. Assuming they pay for water, average electric bill should be about $80. Health insurance, say it's the same as mine with no health issues, $130 a month. Gas, average driver of 1000 miles a month in a car with 24mpg average, so $153.

That's $778 gone of our initial $1334, and that's not including food, auto insurance, a telephone/internet to look for another job, or any of myriad other expenses.

Say $40 a month for a cell phone (Metro PCS standard), the basic internet/cable plan of $80 (Buckeye Cable) for some small amount of entertainment and enjoyment, $30 a month for auto/renter's insurance (State Farm), we're down to $406.

Now, food. Beans, rice, some meat every now and then, say $70 a week. That takes us down to $126 to cover literally every other incidental for the month. Hope like hell nothing breaks on the car, or you get sick, or you want to go on a date once in a while.

Is it any wonder people can't live on a minimum wage?

Since when was the minimum wage ever meant to allow someone to live by themselves?


So what is the purpose of minimum wage then?
 
2012-05-29 12:32:53 PM

Basily Gourt: The problem is these companies want you to show up ready to work, with years of experience. They have no interest in training you.

There is a company in Hookset (I think) New Hampshire that has been trying to hire 100 CNC machinists for quite awhile now. They have gone through about 900 applicants, and only hired about 75 people, according to a story in the Union Leader awhile back.

And it's the same story everytime you dig down into the details of these full-o-sheet companies complaining about the lack of skilled labor.


This. I can't figure out how an entry-level skilled labor position requires 2-5 years experience. Well, how does one get 2-5 years experience? According to these companies, you start in an entry-level position...that requires 2-5 years experience!
 
2012-05-29 12:33:26 PM

NewWorldDan: I've never worked for minimum wage. Not even when I worked at Burger King back in high school.

In any event, I'd like to hire an entry level C# programmer, but it's not easy finding one with the right background.


Are you serious or are you making fun of today's bumper crop of idiot hiring managers?

Because "Entry level" and "has the desired background" are contradictory.
 
2012-05-29 12:35:00 PM

Guelph35:
Since when was the minimum wage ever meant to allow someone to live by themselves?


When the minimum wage was set in 1938, it was designed to allow someone to survive on their own and possibly become a productive member of society. In the 1960s, it was up to 90% of the minimum set for the poverty line for a family of four- now it's less than 60% of that number.

That was the whole point of the minimum wage- someone could survive without outside help or government assistance.
 
2012-05-29 12:38:52 PM

Sword and Shield: Guelph35:
Since when was the minimum wage ever meant to allow someone to live by themselves?

When the minimum wage was set in 1938, it was designed to allow someone to survive on their own and possibly become a productive member of society. In the 1960s, it was up to 90% of the minimum set for the poverty line for a family of four- now it's less than 60% of that number.

That was the whole point of the minimum wage- someone could survive without outside help or government assistance.


Today it seems like the whole push to eliminate it, or keep it low enough to only work for teens and the elderly, is just an artificial subsidy to all those rugged small business owners.
 
2012-05-29 12:39:28 PM
Not sure why we're in a minimum wage discussion when the article is about a global shortage of technical workers.

""[The problem] is accentuated in countries where populations are falling, where young people are staying in education as long as they can because of the relatively high unemployment rates and they're doing academic subjects that aren't suited to the job market. They just don't have the right skills and they're not work-ready.""

Well, I'm shocked!
 
2012-05-29 12:40:22 PM

karmaceutical: So what is the purpose of minimum wage then?


To prevent companies from trying to pay people zero.
 
2012-05-29 12:44:02 PM
Sounds like the real issue is education; good thing THAT funding keeps getting cut.
 
2012-05-29 12:46:53 PM

Guelph35: Sword and Shield: Minimum wage isn't even bloody close, just to put that thought to bed in the initial few comments.

Ohio's minimum wage is $7.70, which is better than the federal minimum. Even if you assume that this person never takes a day off, pays no taxes, has no children, lives alone and lives life at the edges, it isn't enough.

7.70 an hour, multiplied by 40 hour weeks and the 52 week year is $16,016, or 1334.66 a month. Let's even say our created person owns their own car outright, has no credit card or student debt.

A cheap one-bedroom apartment here is $415 for a studio. Assuming they pay for water, average electric bill should be about $80. Health insurance, say it's the same as mine with no health issues, $130 a month. Gas, average driver of 1000 miles a month in a car with 24mpg average, so $153.

That's $778 gone of our initial $1334, and that's not including food, auto insurance, a telephone/internet to look for another job, or any of myriad other expenses.

Say $40 a month for a cell phone (Metro PCS standard), the basic internet/cable plan of $80 (Buckeye Cable) for some small amount of entertainment and enjoyment, $30 a month for auto/renter's insurance (State Farm), we're down to $406.

Now, food. Beans, rice, some meat every now and then, say $70 a week. That takes us down to $126 to cover literally every other incidental for the month. Hope like hell nothing breaks on the car, or you get sick, or you want to go on a date once in a while.

Is it any wonder people can't live on a minimum wage?

Since when was the minimum wage ever meant to allow someone to live by themselves?


Since our economy had a massive shift to low wages and those wages no longer being confined to teenagers
 
2012-05-29 12:47:26 PM
I know what will solve the problem. Tax cuts for the wealthy, higher executive pay and Christian sharia law imposed in the US.
 
2012-05-29 12:51:16 PM
Article wasn't anything like the derp subby put in the title.
 
2012-05-29 12:56:43 PM
this is a global problem, not just an american one. (from my own experience, but the article mentions Asia and Americas, not just USA)

management talent is severely lacking in developing countries, its one of the reasons why BRICS growth is slowing down.

you can get an amazing salary if you have management experience and fluency in Portuguese, Spanish, Mandarin or Russian (Turkish can help too)...if you are willing to relocate.
 
2012-05-29 12:58:42 PM

Sword and Shield: Minimum wage isn't even bloody close, just to put that thought to bed in the initial few comments.

Ohio's minimum wage is $7.70, which is better than the federal minimum. Even if you assume that this person never takes a day off, pays no taxes, has no children, lives alone and lives life at the edges, it isn't enough.

7.70 an hour, multiplied by 40 hour weeks and the 52 week year is $16,016, or 1334.66 a month. Let's even say our created person owns their own car outright, has no credit card or student debt.

A cheap one-bedroom apartment here is $415 for a studio. Assuming they pay for water, average electric bill should be about $80. Health insurance, say it's the same as mine with no health issues, $130 a month. Gas, average driver of 1000 miles a month in a car with 24mpg average, so $153.

That's $778 gone of our initial $1334, and that's not including food, auto insurance, a telephone/internet to look for another job, or any of myriad other expenses.

Say $40 a month for a cell phone (Metro PCS standard), the basic internet/cable plan of $80 (Buckeye Cable) for some small amount of entertainment and enjoyment, $30 a month for auto/renter's insurance (State Farm), we're down to $406.

Now, food. Beans, rice, some meat every now and then, say $70 a week. That takes us down to $126 to cover literally every other incidental for the month. Hope like hell nothing breaks on the car, or you get sick, or you want to go on a date once in a while.

Is it any wonder people can't live on a minimum wage?


Thay have money for Cable *and* a COLOR TV? Next thing you'll tell me is they have refrigerators and microwave ovens!
These so called "working poor", they have it soooo easy.
 
2012-05-29 01:03:15 PM
The reason they can't find skilled workers to fill their positions is because their job requirements all look like this now:

Wanted: Programmer with extensive experience in mainframes, Novell, Linux, Windows and MAC OS. Must be able to speak a minimum of 4 languages fluently. Masters degree required, PhD preferred. Must be willing to be available 24x7 for support rotation and in addition, weekends to tend to the CEOs lawn. Must be MCSE, CCNA and PMP certified. Must have 5 - 10 years experience supporting a large scale high availability environment for this entry level position. Starting salary, $32,000.
 
2012-05-29 01:04:21 PM
 
2012-05-29 01:07:09 PM
Would it have killed them to use the studies definition of skilled labor? Is this skilled as experience pushing the hamburger button or CNC operator with some programing skills?
 
2012-05-29 01:09:36 PM

fennix: Nobody is willing to do any training and they have unrealistic expectations. They want 5 years of experience, 2+ doing whatever specific tasks they will be doing at their prospective job, and they want it for 32k a year with no benefits at-will. The only shortage we have is of business who aren't obsessed with externalizing all the costs of obtaining well trained employees. If they start offering real money, scholarships, training, and incentives I bet workers would magically appear.


I would almost argue that people in hiring positions have become too smart for their own good, and have left common sense behind.

My wife has recently joined a large bio firm as a project manager. The job had been posted for over a year, and she wanted to apply for it, but it was listed as part-time. She ended up getting/taking the job when she convinced them to combine the job with another part-time PM position, making for one full-time job. No one had thought to do that before.

It hasn't changed anything, however. The organization needs another lead researcher. Lead researchers need a PhD. New projects usually only have a few hours of work and limited budgets to start. Ergo, a new job listing asking for an experienced research PhD to work part-time for approx. 40k/yr with no benefits. Strangely, no one has applied for the position. My wife was told that she clearly wasn't doing a very good job of recruiting for this position... When she countered that experienced PhD's don't want to earn less than a truck driver for part-time, non-benefit work, her bosses were perplexed.

They are currently stuck in a stalemate of "You don't get it, no one wants low pay and no benefits for the high-qualification positions." vs. "No, you don't get it. We've run the numbers, and the math is sound. Why don't applicants understand that?"
 
2012-05-29 01:11:01 PM

Sword and Shield: Guelph35:
Since when was the minimum wage ever meant to allow someone to live by themselves?

When the minimum wage was set in 1938, it was designed to allow someone to survive on their own and possibly become a productive member of society. In the 1960s, it was up to 90% of the minimum set for the poverty line for a family of four- now it's less than 60% of that number.

That was the whole point of the minimum wage- someone could survive without outside help or government assistance.


Good answer. And yet, sharing an apartment does not require a person to suckle the government teat.
 
2012-05-29 01:14:17 PM

fennix: Nobody is willing to do any training and they have unrealistic expectations. They want 5 years of experience, 2+ doing whatever specific tasks they will be doing at their prospective job, and they want it for 32k a year with no benefits at-will. The only shortage we have is of business who aren't obsessed with externalizing all the costs of obtaining well trained employees. If they start offering real money, scholarships, training, and incentives I bet workers would magically appear.


So much this, my last job wanted helpdesk guys with 5 years experience. i tried to tell management that 5 years on the help desk means A) you're useless as anything else and probably can't grasp the simple concepts required for tier 1 support or B) you enjoy the job which means you're either insane or heavily medicated to prevent insanity.

either way you are getting shiat for staff and then wondering why the world complains about the "helpless desk".
 
2012-05-29 01:14:54 PM

Sword and Shield: A cheap one-bedroom apartment here is $415 for a studio. Assuming they pay for water, average electric bill should be about $80. Health insurance, say it's the same as mine with no health issues, $130 a month. Gas, average driver of 1000 miles a month in a car with 24mpg average, so $153.


If you're dirt poor, you share a living space. I've cut electric bills down to $40, and when you're farked you don't get health insurance. I drove a used Civic that got 30mpg on bad days. You can REALLY pull back if you need to.

But that's kind of the problem. When everyone tightens the belt, they're not consuming. This is one of the factors of a deflationary spiral. Third-world countries where only a few are rich and everyone else is poor are stagnant economies because no one can afford anything. The other is that poor people generally aren't all that good at managing a budget to begin with. This is often portrayed as the cause of their poverty, which is sometimes the case but it's also a sociological issue. For example, they're prone to drug/alcohol problems and get into debt. Well, DUH, if your life is working a miserable job then coming home to a can of cold beans with no bright future ahead, you'd want to drink or spend beyond your means for a taste of comfort.

akula: The argument is along the lines of higher pay = fewer workers and more expensive products.


And in reality, it doesn't necessarily result in either. It certainly doesn't correlate with more expensive products, as more productive workers have a MUCH higher RoI to compensate. One guy who can run a reflow solder machine is WAY more profitable than a hundred of the best line workers in the world hand-soldering PCBs.

The jobs side is trickier. Higher pay does lead to fewer workers in a vacuum (as illustrated above with the reflow solder machine), and in fact our current rut is a matter of a bunch of workers having nothing to do. Their skills are either overextended (construction workers after an unsustainable housing boom) or obsolete (manufacturing displaced by automation). Which is often why Keynesians suggest a jobs policy, but this starts to get more into a "what should we do" social issue than a "what causes what" economic one.
 
2012-05-29 01:17:50 PM

Buster Hermano: They are currently stuck in a stalemate of "You don't get it, no one wants low pay and no benefits for the high-qualification positions." vs. "No, you don't get it. We've run the numbers, and the math is sound. Why don't applicants understand that?"


That's the internal stalemate. When "experienced PhD's don't want to earn less than a truck driver", they literally go out and learn to drive a truck. They understand perfectly.
 
2012-05-29 01:17:52 PM
Excuse for cheating and reading the article:

"[The problem] is accentuated in countries where populations are falling, where young people are staying in education as long as they can because of the relatively high unemployment rates and they're doing academic subjects that aren't suited to the job market. They just don't have the right skills and they're not work-ready."


That statement isn't just about America, by the way.
 
2012-05-29 01:19:53 PM

Sword and Shield: Is it any wonder people can't live on a minimum wage?


I can save you at a minimum $100 a month:

1. No cable. Saves you $80 right off the top.
2. Trac-fone. Wal*Mart has deals where you get double minutes for your $20, so two full hours instead of one for $20.

Bingo, I just saved you $100. That's $100 a month you could sock away for unexpected costs, or to help cover expenses on the days you take off to look for a better job.
 
2012-05-29 01:22:45 PM

dittybopper: Sword and Shield: Is it any wonder people can't live on a minimum wage?

I can save you at a minimum $100 a month:

1. No cable. Saves you $80 right off the top.
2. Trac-fone. Wal*Mart has deals where you get double minutes for your $20, so two full hours instead of one for $20.

Bingo, I just saved you $100. That's $100 a month you could sock away for unexpected costs, or to help cover expenses on the days you take off to look for a better job.


Well, that makes everything better then, I guess. No problems at all with min. wage now! Thanks for clearing that up for us.
 
2012-05-29 01:28:08 PM
Couple of points:

1. TFA mentions that many places, especially the EU, are hurting for skilled technical/vocational workers, but no one seems to be doing that anymore. Well, if the business elite and college job counselors hadn't spent the better part of the last 30 years denigrating vocational trades as "union scum work" that was beneath any aspiring professional, there may be more kids today looking for that kind of work.

2. Having just been to London, average worker wages seem to be much higher there, yet people are still out and about consuming all manner of things. Even taking into account VAT, businesses are busy and no one is going home empty handed from the store. So the idea that "higher wages = economic doom" is bunk.
 
2012-05-29 01:34:45 PM

dragonchild: Sword and Shield: A cheap one-bedroom apartment here is $415 for a studio. Assuming they pay for water, average electric bill should be about $80. Health insurance, say it's the same as mine with no health issues, $130 a month. Gas, average driver of 1000 miles a month in a car with 24mpg average, so $153.

If you're dirt poor, you share a living space. I've cut electric bills down to $40, and when you're farked you don't get health insurance. I drove a used Civic that got 30mpg on bad days. You can REALLY pull back if you need to.

But that's kind of the problem. When everyone tightens the belt, they're not consuming. This is one of the factors of a deflationary spiral. Third-world countries where only a few are rich and everyone else is poor are stagnant economies because no one can afford anything. The other is that poor people generally aren't all that good at managing a budget to begin with. This is often portrayed as the cause of their poverty, which is sometimes the case but it's also a sociological issue. For example, they're prone to drug/alcohol problems and get into debt. Well, DUH, if your life is working a miserable job then coming home to a can of cold beans with no bright future ahead, you'd want to drink or spend beyond your means for a taste of comfort.

akula: The argument is along the lines of higher pay = fewer workers and more expensive products.

And in reality, it doesn't necessarily result in either. It certainly doesn't correlate with more expensive products, as more productive workers have a MUCH higher RoI to compensate. One guy who can run a reflow solder machine is WAY more profitable than a hundred of the best line workers in the world hand-soldering PCBs.

The jobs side is trickier. Higher pay does lead to fewer workers in a vacuum (as illustrated above with the reflow solder machine), and in fact our current rut is a matter of a bunch of workers having nothing to do. Their skills are either overextended (construction workers after an ...


You can pay burger flippers all you want but McDonalds is still going to taste like McDonalds. It'll just be more expensive McDonalds.
 
2012-05-29 01:38:27 PM

Buster Hermano: They are currently stuck in a stalemate of "You don't get it, no one wants low pay and no benefits for the high-qualification positions." vs. "No, you don't get it. We've run the numbers, and the math is sound. Why don't applicants understand that?"


If no one applies for the job it should be evedant to the hr folk that what they are offering is not enough to pull in a half hearted application yet alone someone that is good. After a set period of time increase the comp package and see if you get takers. Keep doing that until you hit the cost benefit point you deem the breaking point.
 
2012-05-29 01:41:38 PM

LL316: You can pay burger flippers all you want but McDonalds is still going to taste like McDonalds. It'll just be more expensive McDonalds.


That's a standards issue. Actually McDonald's is a rather bad example because a lot of McDonald's employees in fact make a lot of money. Six or seven figures, even. The people in the corporate office that, among other things, commoditize the labor pool are NOT burger flippers.

So, in fact, McDonald's actually has a rich tradition of employing highly paid workers to control costs. Without them, the operating costs would in fact be much higher. The guy behind the counter is just cannon fodder and in some sense proof that higher-paying jobs don't result in fewer jobs, per se. (Wealth inequality is another issue, though.)
 
2012-05-29 01:42:02 PM

Beluga Heights: akula: HempHead: You've never been a graduate teaching assistant.

What, going to make the argument that being a grad TA is skilled labor?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

/Has a master's
//Pretty darn close to a doctorate
///There's a fark-ton of people who want to teach college, you aren't that special, that means lower wages

You're going to make the argument that being a grad TA isn't skilled labor? Also, the biggest thing TAs do is free up time for professors who have to make the college bucket loads with research grants. I would argue they're worth a few dollars more than they make. I also find it interesting your argument is partially a jab at yourself given that you're presently barely more skilled than a TA.


1) It's a joke.

2) My education has been concurrent with actual work experience, so my situation doesn't exactly mirror others. I didn't spend my off hours TAing at master's level- I spend it doing the friggin' job (I wasn't a full time student in grad school and I'm still not). If a person is pretty much solely in academia, how things work will be different.

3) Salary tends to reflect a combination of education/training needed, the number of available candidates for the position, and the amount of money you make for other people (real profit). Grad school TAs fail miserably on the last one and aren't really in great shape for the second. It's why pro athletes make a ton of money- they make that money for others, there aren't that many people who can play ball (or whatever) that well, and you can't necessarily train people to do that.

If somebody wants to make a good wage, that somebody needs to learn something difficult that doesn't already have a ton of people clamoring for work in that field. If it's in a profit generating industry the salary will be yet higher (if you're directly linked to making the money, it's like a multiplier).

If you don't want to learn a unique skill and want to take jobs anybody can do, you won't get paid much. That goes triple if nobody wants to pay you for your skills. I don't need to pay people to compose poetry for me to analyze a social group, so I won't pay for it. I do, however, need competent auto body folks, so I'll be paying one of those tomorrow when he finishes on my wife's car.
 
2012-05-29 01:44:51 PM

Saiga410: If no one applies for the job it should be evedant to the hr folk that what they are offering is not enough to pull in a half hearted application yet alone someone that is good. After a set period of time increase the comp package and see if you get takers. Keep doing that until you hit the cost benefit point you deem the breaking point.


Yes, but "troll all day for low wages, sort through the hundrdeds of no-cover-letter applications that are clearly just in it to keep getting their UI benefit, complain about the talent pool" keeps the HR nail-painters employed.
 
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