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(CNBC)   Why can't we find competent skilled labor? Minimum wage is enough to live on, right?   (cnbc.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, employment agency, minimum wages, skilled workers  
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6306 clicks; posted to Business » on 29 May 2012 at 11:50 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-30 05:13:36 AM  

Mechanic81: Some of you clearly didnt understand the article. It's ok, you never learned to think in school, just regurgitate and brain dump.

I'll give you the whole 'unwilling to invest in their staff' thing that businesses seem to have going on. It's a problem, but not one they created. Doesn't excuse the poor response. However, some fields are far worse about it than others. IT seems to encourage turn-over every 2-5 years. IT is also balls deep in graduates and other candidates, which suppresses wages. MOre jobs than candidates.

We need welders, machinists, skilled technicians. These jobs pay pretty good. Vocational Ed carries this ugly stigma because 'go to college'. Well, guess who brings home more these days: me, or my friends with undergrad or graduate degrees? Yeah, this guy. granted they majored in silly shiat like "psychology", "Journalism', "art" and "Law Enforcement" but still. So we've done a whole generation a disservice, but that generation wasnt really realistic. What did you really expect to do with an art degree? How did you no know that you need a doctorate to make any money in psych?

In a former life, I managed a McDonalds. Min wage is a joke, because few flippers are worth half of it. Nobody is supposed to want a min-wage job. Only a moron would as their sole source of income. As a second income, or as a kid in school its great. Min wage jokers invariably end up on the govt cheddar. Because thats easier and grants a better life style than actually trying. Seen it, done it, still got some t-shirts.

The truth of the matter is min-wage farks up the economy. Get rid of it, and things will sort out. Prices will drop, wages will drop for many jobs, but some jobs will probably see an increase. Min wage increases do not help people, because the prices go up. The govt only raises it to increase tax revenues. Income taxes go up, payroll taxes go up, sales taxes go up. but your bank account doesnt get any better.

As a final thought, poor people are poor because ...


You have no apparent financial education or acumen, yet you're telling us, based on your experience with a place like MCDONALDS, that businesses don't want to invest in staff because of... minimum wage laws?

And, in reality, your final paragraph has more to do with inflation than the minimum wage (which are connected, but min. wage is only a SMALL part of this nation's inflationary problems in the recent past), although your solution is just as asinine for either scenario.

I work in the newspaper industry. I think I know a tad bit more than you about how skilled labor is getting the shaft. And in some ways, minimum wage laws are responsible (but not in the way you think). They should be tiered so that, say, the 5 minutes of training required to make a burger flipper won't be treated the same as a person who can run printing machinery where you literally need to work a full year before you understand the intricacies of the job.
I worked in retail when I was a teenager (where, really, the skills were common sense and an ability to not piss off customers), and if I were to have stayed there and NOT received a true promotion to management, I'd be making about $12/hr per the company's policies regarding mandatory wage increases. That's MORE than the lead press person at the local newspaper makes.
 
2012-05-30 05:14:34 AM  
Anyway, minimum wage needs an adjustment, but were it to be "removed" it would result in utter financial chaos in this nation. The mere suggestion is absurd.
 
2012-05-30 05:21:12 AM  

Sword and Shield: Minimum wage isn't even bloody close, just to put that thought to bed in the initial few comments.

Ohio's minimum wage is $7.70, which is better than the federal minimum. Even if you assume that this person never takes a day off, pays no taxes, has no children, lives alone and lives life at the edges, it isn't enough.

7.70 an hour, multiplied by 40 hour weeks and the 52 week year is $16,016, or 1334.66 a month. Let's even say our created person owns their own car outright, has no credit card or student debt.

A cheap one-bedroom apartment here is $415 for a studio. Assuming they pay for water, average electric bill should be about $80. Health insurance, say it's the same as mine with no health issues, $130 a month. Gas, average driver of 1000 miles a month in a car with 24mpg average, so $153.

That's $778 gone of our initial $1334, and that's not including food, auto insurance, a telephone/internet to look for another job, or any of myriad other expenses.

Say $40 a month for a cell phone (Metro PCS standard), the basic internet/cable plan of $80 (Buckeye Cable) for some small amount of entertainment and enjoyment, $30 a month for auto/renter's insurance (State Farm), we're down to $406.

Now, food. Beans, rice, some meat every now and then, say $70 a week. That takes us down to $126 to cover literally every other incidental for the month. Hope like hell nothing breaks on the car, or you get sick, or you want to go on a date once in a while.

Is it any wonder people can't live on a minimum wage?


Would now be a good time to point out that whole 25-40% off the top Uncle Sam steals from you before the check even hits your pocket?
 
2012-05-30 05:25:17 AM  
dantheman195:

Rent a two bedroom for $500 and get a responsible roommate or share the lease with someone and split the rent and utilities 50/50, savings $205 a month

Get a T-Mobile prepay, 1000 minutes/texts for $100 and they last a year, savings $32 a month

Don't get health insurance, your doc will accept cash and will give you a good deal savings $130 a month

Don't get renter's insurance, you don't have any worth stealing savings $15 a month

Share the cable tv ...


What the hell are you on? You can't rent a doghouse for $500. And you can't pay to move for less than that either.

The Cell you can get by without, but no insurance? Know how I know you've never stepped off a curb wrong and turned an ankle real bad? Or gotten influenza?
 
2012-05-30 06:33:47 AM  

Basily Gourt: The problem is these companies want you to show up ready to work, with years of experience. They have no interest in training you.

There is a company in Hookset (I think) New Hampshire that has been trying to hire 100 CNC machinists for quite awhile now. They have gone through about 900 applicants, and only hired about 75 people, according to a story in the Union Leader awhile back.

And it's the same story everytime you dig down into the details of these full-o-sheet companies complaining about the lack of skilled labor.


Most companies can't spare an empty production line just to train people on CNC. That is a community college thing around these parts. Every state I've read about, however, helps line up free training for those willing to take it up. The problem is the people laid off from old technology manufacturing won't adapt. They will sit there on government checks and biatch about how the government runs everything, while demanding the government bring back the jobs that vanished. I've been surrounded by people like that, and I just had a conversation with someone here in Lansing who reported that same mentality here.

Companies do not train. You go to school for training. If you aren't willing to go to school for CNC, you are not going to work in manufacturing anywhere I know of. And if you aren't willing to upgrade your job skills on a regular basis after that, there will be no place for you in the economy.

This is the reality that my generation was told about endlessly, by the very people who refuse to face it in their own lifetimes, and I'm kind of sick of them biatching about the legacy they've handed us. The cows have come home to roost. Make the bed you lie in.

puffy999: The truth of the matter is min-wage farks up the economy. Get rid of it, and things will sort out. Prices will drop, wages will drop for many jobs, but some jobs will probably see an increase. Min wage increases do not help people, because the prices go up. The govt only raises it to increase tax revenues. Income taxes go up, payroll taxes go up, sales taxes go up. but your bank account doesnt get any better.


The Fed has a Congressional mandate to support inflation up to 3% a year to push consumption and investment over savings. Employers have a mandate to get you as close to slavery as legally permissible in the name of higher profits for shareholders (on paper at least, since most dividends don't reflect actual profitability). Even if you removed the Congressional mandate (bought and paid for by corporations to support ever higher stock prices so it won't ever go away) there would be wage deflation forced by the "invisible hand" of institutional investors. See: the collapse of Circuit City after its management bowed to institutional investors and eliminating commission pay, then firing everyone who made less than the "prevailing wage" paid by lower-quality competitors and offering to hire them back at a lower wage.

I watched that happen from the outside; I worked for Radio Shack and one of my friends worked at Circuit City. It was a very public (but quickly forgotten) display of what is typically confined to board rooms.

Oddly enough, a little while later they tried to force Costco to lower wages to front line employees and Costco's management told them to go peck a rock with their threatened lawsuit. But few companies have the stones to do that, they leave themselves open to "activist investors" like Icahn (and Perelman before him) who muscle themselves into their boards and break up companies when their 8% stake doesn't get their temper tantrums acknowledged the first time or they think their gambling isn't going to be profitable.
 
2012-05-30 06:42:56 AM  

dragonchild: Evil Twin Skippy: First and foremost: we need to abolish the study of computer science in college. This sounds counter-intuitive, but what kids learn in these programs is useless, at the same time what they don't is crippling. Imagine if you ran a driving school where all students learned was how to handle a race car on a dry track.

CS is more analogous to teaching a kid how a powered land vehicle works whether it's a motorcycle, car, truck or tank. It's up to you to teach them to drive stick if that's your thing, but once they get going they'll have a MUCH better idea of how to handle the thing. Which is good for the kid, because a lot of coders are gypsies moving from contract to contract. A NASCAR driver is a beast behind a NASCAR car, but put him in an 18-wheeler and he could very well be useless. Which sucks for the truck, and the guy who invested all his time learning only race cars.

This is assuming the CS department did its job, of course. Now, if you insist on hiring the 2-year desperate sods out of Eastsouthern Louisiana State Technical College, I can't really help you.

Kids don't study for four years and put themselves in to tens of thousands of dollars in debt to cater to your specific whims. Man up, nancy.


Let's see... great people in the history of Comp Sci:

Ada Lovelace: Mathematics
Donald Knuth: Physics
Marvin Minsky: Mathematics
Brian Kernigan: Engineering
Dennis Ritchie: Phyics/Applied Math
Alan Turing: Mathematics
Bill Gates: College Dropout
Steve Jobs: College Dropout
Richard Hipp: Theology
 
2012-05-30 08:00:26 AM  

BolloxReader: Basily Gourt: The problem is these companies want you to show up ready to work, with years of experience. They have no interest in training you.

There is a company in Hookset (I think) New Hampshire that has been trying to hire 100 CNC machinists for quite awhile now. They have gone through about 900 applicants, and only hired about 75 people, according to a story in the Union Leader awhile back.

And it's the same story everytime you dig down into the details of these full-o-sheet companies complaining about the lack of skilled labor.

Most companies can't spare an empty production line just to train people on CNC. That is a community college thing around these parts. Every state I've read about, however, helps line up free training for those willing to take it up. The problem is the people laid off from old technology manufacturing won't adapt. They will sit there on government checks and biatch about how the government runs everything, while demanding the government bring back the jobs that vanished. I've been surrounded by people like that, and I just had a conversation with someone here in Lansing who reported that same mentality here.

Companies do not train. You go to school for training.That's only part of the equation. Without experience, you will not be hired. I understand this catch-22 has been with us since the dawn of time, but right now these companies are taking it to the extreme. If you aren't willing to go to school for CNC, you are not going to work in manufacturing anywhere I know of. And if you aren't willing to upgrade your job skills on a regular basis after that, there will be no place for you in the economy.

This is the reality that my generation was told about endlessly, by the very people who refuse to face it in their own lifetimes, and I'm kind of sick of them biatching about the legacy they've handed us. The cows have come home to roost. Make the bed you lie in.

puffy999: The truth of the matter is min-wage farks up the economy. Get rid of it, and things will sort out. Prices will drop, wages will drop for many jobs, but some jobs will probably see an increase. Min wage increases do not help people, because the prices go up. The govt ...


I'm a remodeling contractor, and in the construction industry, you train new guys or you work alone. And before you poo-poo the trades as being filled with low-skilled morons, consider that in remodeling, you need guys that can do everything from the foundation to the roof. Framing, drywall install & finish, trim carpentry, ect.

And of course, they all need to do perfect work, because the homeowner is always looking over their shoulder.

It takes years to train them, and of course, as soon as they know enough to go out on their own, they go out on their own.

I mention that because that is usually the excuse these companies put forth. They don't want to invest in training people, because they can't chain them to the floor for the next 40 years. "We put all that money into training them, and then they leave."

Cry me a river.
 
2012-05-30 08:49:30 AM  

Evil Twin Skippy: Let's see... great people in the history of Comp Sci:

Ada Lovelace: Mathematics
Donald Knuth: Physics
Marvin Minsky: Mathematics
Brian Kernigan: Engineering
Dennis Ritchie: Phyics/Applied Math
Alan Turing: Mathematics
Bill Gates: College Dropout
Steve Jobs: College Dropout
Richard Hipp: Theology


Why is this a surprise? Gates and Jobs are businessmen, not innovators, while many others lived in times when the discipline of computer science didn't exist. What the fark else was Ada Lovelace gonna study, Applied Nuclear Physics??
 
2012-05-30 09:49:33 AM  

xaks: What the hell are you on? You can't rent a doghouse for $500. And you can't pay to move for less than that either.

The Cell you can get by without, but no insurance? Know how I know you've never stepped off a curb wrong and turned an ankle real bad? Or gotten influenza?



My HOUSE PAYMENT is $477 / month with taxes / insurance figured in.

and who the hell goes to the doctor for the flu??

/Where dad lives (rural Missouri farm), land is $750 / acre
 
2012-05-30 09:53:23 AM  

FitzShivering: enemy of the state: FitzShivering: Hemp
That's nonsense.

There's not a TA on this planet making $70K a year. Your friend is possibly adjunct faculty, which usually requires a PhD, for whom $70K is a shiatload of money, but not necessarily impossible. But that's not a TA.

A TA is a graduate student who works 20+ hours a week, usually grading papers, sometimes lecturing (which is what I was lucky enough to do). There's no professor who will pay a grad student $70K a year to grade his papers, or a department that will do that.

It is skilled labor, by any measure. You have to *really* know the subject, which no one with a bachelors does. You need to teach it to really know it (or write a text book), I know of no exceptions.

Although I do know of one professor who was going to pay a rather hot graduate student $70K for a postdoc, on the assumption he'd eventually get in her pants. Or perhaps he figured the money worth it just so he could fantasize. She took a postdoc for $40K at another school.

You did not read what I said closely at all, so I don't see where I need to spend the time to respond to you in detail. Please go back and read it again, and you will see why your response has very little to do with what I actually stated.


I guess I'm missing something. My apologies.
 
2012-05-30 10:06:22 AM  

Evil Twin Skippy: Imagine if you ran a driving school where all students learned was how to handle a race car on a dry track. That's my frustration training a kid fresh out of school.


They have a degree, that proves they are trainable. Hire them and train them.
 
2012-05-30 10:07:55 AM  

invisbob: who the hell goes to the doctor for the flu??


I did. Stomach flu, anyway. Nasty one. I tried to "tough it out" and wound up dehydrated and vomiting bile & blood. Couldn't hold down water because I was throwing up every ten minutes like clockwork whether there was anything in there or not. When my stomach literally ran out of stuff to eject I just started dry heaving myself to exhaustion. When the umpteenth hurl knocked me out and woke I up convulsing on the bathroom floor I decided dialing 911 was better than dying next to a toilet. By the time I checked in I was so dehydrated my blood pressure was dropping and my veins had collapsed to the point where they had trouble with the IV.

Nice little rural hospital. Every nurse was an extremely cranky and morbidly obese biatch. After some anti-puke meds the EMTs administered in the ambulance (as in the hospital hadn't done shiat) and an IV they angrily tossed me out and charged me $2500 for a four-hour stay. If I didn't have insurance, a little virus might've thrown me into bankruptcy.

/ After I recovered I called the medics and thanked them for saving my life
 
2012-05-30 10:26:43 AM  

FitzShivering: ajgeek: I have absolutely no problem finding work with my 12 years of computer and networking under my belt.
What I have an enormous problem with is finding work that pays more than $10/hour with ANY BENEFITS AT ALL!

/$8.35/hour
//no vacation, no benefits

Where do you live? I pay people with no experience more than that, as long as they're smart and quick to learn (read: It's more expensive to fix bad habits than teach good ones).

What are you an expert in computer and networking-wise? What size business are you targeting for your job? If you aren't incredibly specialized, it may seem counter-intuitive, but it's usually best to avoid large businesses.


In order: I live in Maine north of Augusta, so work here is limited anyway and relocation is extremely difficult.
My degree is in Computer Systems Technology, but I've honestly given up on the field. I'm using my skill set right now to help pay for my Mechanical Engineering degree. In the end I'm sure I'll end up BACK in an IT office, just in an industrial instead of business setting.

But, if for some reason you're still curious, my major skills include desktop and laptop diagnostics and repair, LAN implementation (specializing in retrofitting old buildings) with Firewall and DNS, operating system deployment (with limited server knowledge) and a bit of software debugging in a nutshell. I took the time to pick up fundamentals of HTML, Javascript and CSS in my spare time. I am happy to say that I still actually make use of a soldering iron from time to time as well.
Unfortunately after my degree I ended up getting worked into a corner, so my original foundation withered around me; thus my skills with Cisco router and WAN skills (which was my entire second year of my A.A.S.) are both obsolete and rusty.
 
2012-05-30 10:42:00 AM  

Dancin_In_Anson: What article did you read Smitty?


No one commenting seems to have read the article either.

Minimum wage has nothing to do with derps in South America and Africa generally being derpy. There is a reason why some countries/continents are assbackwards and in the stone ages.
 
2012-05-30 10:43:16 AM  

Sword and Shield: akula: Sword and Shield: Is it any wonder people can't live on a minimum wage?

There's no argument that minimum wage isn't a living wage.

There is quite the discussion as to whether it 1) should be, and if it would be, then 2) if it would remain being so. The argument is along the lines of higher pay = fewer workers and more expensive products.

When it costs more, people buy less, whether it's gasoline, televisions, or labor.

What is the point of a minimum wage if it is not a living wage? All you're doing is slowing the bleeding in that case-your worker is still living with no margin for error, except now they might not qualify for government aid.


Because it is very easy to live on minimum wage.

Buying an iPhone, paying the bar tab every night and paying for HBO is much more difficult though.
 
2012-05-30 10:44:07 AM  

Basily Gourt: The problem is these companies want you to show up ready to work, with years of experience. They have no interest in training you.

There is a company in Hookset (I think) New Hampshire that has been trying to hire 100 CNC machinists for quite awhile now. They have gone through about 900 applicants, and only hired about 75 people, according to a story in the Union Leader awhile back.

And it's the same story everytime you dig down into the details of these full-o-sheet companies complaining about the lack of skilled labor.


I think I found the problem.
 
2012-05-30 10:46:24 AM  

McManus_brothers: Basily Gourt: The problem is these companies want you to show up ready to work, with years of experience. They have no interest in training you.

There is a company in Hookset (I think) New Hampshire that has been trying to hire 100 CNC machinists for quite awhile now. They have gone through about 900 applicants, and only hired about 75 people, according to a story in the Union Leader awhile back.

And it's the same story everytime you dig down into the details of these full-o-sheet companies complaining about the lack of skilled labor.

This. I can't figure out how an entry-level skilled labor position requires 2-5 years experience. Well, how does one get 2-5 years experience? According to these companies, you start in an entry-level position...that requires 2-5 years experience!


"Sorry you need 2-5 years experience" is just code for "you bombed the interview, are dumb and generally unemployable."
 
2012-05-30 10:51:34 AM  

Bullseyed: McManus_brothers: Basily Gourt: The problem is these companies want you to show up ready to work, with years of experience. They have no interest in training you.

There is a company in Hookset (I think) New Hampshire that has been trying to hire 100 CNC machinists for quite awhile now. They have gone through about 900 applicants, and only hired about 75 people, according to a story in the Union Leader awhile back.

And it's the same story everytime you dig down into the details of these full-o-sheet companies complaining about the lack of skilled labor.

This. I can't figure out how an entry-level skilled labor position requires 2-5 years experience. Well, how does one get 2-5 years experience? According to these companies, you start in an entry-level position...that requires 2-5 years experience!

"Sorry you need 2-5 years experience" is just code for "you bombed the interview, are dumb and generally unemployable."


"You need 2-5 years experience" is in the job ad genius. No one says anything like that at or after the interview.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
 
2012-05-30 10:54:04 AM  

Sword and Shield: Guelph35:
Since when was the minimum wage ever meant to allow someone to live by themselves?

When the minimum wage was set in 1938, it was designed to allow someone to survive on their own and possibly become a productive member of society. In the 1960s, it was up to 90% of the minimum set for the poverty line for a family of four- now it's less than 60% of that number.

That was the whole point of the minimum wage- someone could survive without outside help or government assistance.


Minimum wage is more than enough for someone. If you can't get a better job than minimum wage, it is immoral and unethical to have kids.
 
2012-05-30 10:55:23 AM  

jbuist: Not sure why we're in a minimum wage discussion when the article is about a global shortage of technical workers.

""[The problem] is accentuated in countries where populations are falling, where young people are staying in education as long as they can because of the relatively high unemployment rates and they're doing academic subjects that aren't suited to the job market. They just don't have the right skills and they're not work-ready.""

Well, I'm shocked!


Because the submitter is a troll and the mods apparently don't read things before green-lighting them.


Minimum wage jobs in the USA must be so good that people are leaving Asia and South America to come to the USA.
 
2012-05-30 10:56:14 AM  

Guelph35: karmaceutical: So what is the purpose of minimum wage then?

To prevent companies from trying to pay people zero.


Please cite the line in the Constitution that says the government is allowed to infringe on the rights of businesses.
 
2012-05-30 10:57:35 AM  

dumbobruni: this is a global problem, not just an american one. (from my own experience, but the article mentions Asia and Americas, not just USA)

management talent is severely lacking in developing countries, its one of the reasons why BRICS growth is slowing down.

you can get an amazing salary if you have management experience and fluency in Portuguese, Spanish, Mandarin or Russian (Turkish can help too)...if you are willing to relocate.


The Americas doesn't include the USA. The Americas is Mexico + anything south of there.
 
2012-05-30 10:58:59 AM  

Saiga410: Would it have killed them to use the studies definition of skilled labor? Is this skilled as experience pushing the hamburger button or CNC operator with some programing skills?


The article is about third world countries, so probably "Lead Bucket of Water from the River Carrier".
 
2012-05-30 11:01:49 AM  

PowerSlacker: Excuse for cheating and reading the article:

"[The problem] is accentuated in countries where populations are falling, where young people are staying in education as long as they can because of the relatively high unemployment rates and they're doing academic subjects that aren't suited to the job market. They just don't have the right skills and they're not work-ready."

That statement isn't just about America, by the way.


The article is about third world countries in south america and asia. So no, not about USA at all.
 
2012-05-30 11:09:28 AM  

Mechanic81: Some of you clearly didnt understand the article. It's ok, you never learned to think in school, just regurgitate and brain dump.

I'll give you the whole 'unwilling to invest in their staff' thing that businesses seem to have going on. It's a problem, but not one they created. Doesn't excuse the poor response. However, some fields are far worse about it than others. IT seems to encourage turn-over every 2-5 years. IT is also balls deep in graduates and other candidates, which suppresses wages. MOre jobs than candidates.

We need welders, machinists, skilled technicians. These jobs pay pretty good. Vocational Ed carries this ugly stigma because 'go to college'. Well, guess who brings home more these days: me, or my friends with undergrad or graduate degrees? Yeah, this guy. granted they majored in silly shiat like "psychology", "Journalism', "art" and "Law Enforcement" but still. So we've done a whole generation a disservice, but that generation wasnt really realistic. What did you really expect to do with an art degree? How did you no know that you need a doctorate to make any money in psych?

In a former life, I managed a McDonalds. Min wage is a joke, because few flippers are worth half of it. Nobody is supposed to want a min-wage job. Only a moron would as their sole source of income. As a second income, or as a kid in school its great. Min wage jokers invariably end up on the govt cheddar. Because thats easier and grants a better life style than actually trying. Seen it, done it, still got some t-shirts.

The truth of the matter is min-wage farks up the economy. Get rid of it, and things will sort out. Prices will drop, wages will drop for many jobs, but some jobs will probably see an increase. Min wage increases do not help people, because the prices go up. The govt only raises it to increase tax revenues. Income taxes go up, payroll taxes go up, sales taxes go up. but your bank account doesnt get any better.

As a final thought, poor people are poor because ...


Perfect post.

One thing though. Minimum wage increases do raise prices, but that is by design. They want to cause inflation. Inflation rewards people with intractable debt (irresponsible spenders) and penalizes people with savings (well balanced and leveraged people).

As a result, minimum wage is a wealth transfer scheme.
 
2012-05-30 11:11:30 AM  

puffy999: Anyway, minimum wage needs an adjustment, but were it to be "removed" it would result in utter financial chaos in this nation. The mere suggestion is absurd.


Removing it overnight would probably be bad. Needs to be phased out, just like Social Security.
 
2012-05-30 11:14:23 AM  

xaks: What the hell are you on? You can't rent a doghouse for $500. And you can't pay to move for less than that either.

The Cell you can get by without, but no insurance? Know how I know you've never stepped off a curb wrong and turned an ankle real bad? Or gotten influenza?


Pay to move? What is that?

It is easy to rent for under $500, but a 30 yr mortgage on a $125,000 house is less than that so might as well buy.

You don't need health insurance for a sprained ankle or the flu.

Most of all though we can tell how unintelligent you are based on your grammar.
 
2012-05-30 11:21:33 AM  

Corporate Self: "You need 2-5 years experience" is in the job ad genius. No one says anything like that at or after the interview.

You have no idea what you are talking about.


Apply anyway.

You have no idea how to get a job.
 
2012-05-30 11:25:39 AM  

DECMATH: Evil Twin Skippy: Imagine if you ran a driving school where all students learned was how to handle a race car on a dry track. That's my frustration training a kid fresh out of school.

They have a degree, that proves they are trainable. Hire them and train them.


Yes, but my point is that unlike other people with degrees, I have to UNTRAIN them first. Things like deadlines are no excuse for poorly commented code. That there is no reason on goods green earth to rewrite production code into an entirely new programming language that they learned in school. That their professor's pet theory on (fill in the blank) naively assumes RAM, processor time, disk space, and employers tolerance for delay are infinite.

I've worked in programming shops and I've run IT departments. My best hires are kids out of high school (who go on to major in CS) and technicians from the shop floor (who have a respect for the complex.) Yes, I have to train them. But starting from nothing is an improvement on starting from counter-productive. (My worst hire was a guy with his Masters in CS...)
 
2012-05-30 11:27:21 AM  

dragonchild: Evil Twin Skippy: Let's see... great people in the history of Comp Sci:

Ada Lovelace: Mathematics
Donald Knuth: Physics
Marvin Minsky: Mathematics
Brian Kernigan: Engineering
Dennis Ritchie: Phyics/Applied Math
Alan Turing: Mathematics
Bill Gates: College Dropout
Steve Jobs: College Dropout
Richard Hipp: Theology

Why is this a surprise? Gates and Jobs are businessmen, not innovators, while many others lived in times when the discipline of computer science didn't exist. What the fark else was Ada Lovelace gonna study, Applied Nuclear Physics??


Dude, Richard Hipp is my age and he wrote SQLite. Sort of my filter for "and have you actually done and CS work since getting out of school."
 
2012-05-30 11:36:09 AM  

Bullseyed: xaks: What the hell are you on? You can't rent a doghouse for $500. And you can't pay to move for less than that either.

The Cell you can get by without, but no insurance? Know how I know you've never stepped off a curb wrong and turned an ankle real bad? Or gotten influenza?

Pay to move? What is that?

It is easy to rent for under $500, but a 30 yr mortgage on a $125,000 house is less than that so might as well buy.

You don't need health insurance for a sprained ankle or the flu.

Most of all though we can tell how unintelligent you are based on your grammar.


Really now?

No rent here under four digit range, unless you want to live in Crackville.

My last bout of influenza (three years ago, nasty one) ran me a 103 fever and projectile vomiting and dehydration to the point of "not being able to sit up unassisted" nausea. That would have cost just under $2000 (doc showed me the paperwork afterwards - blood work & labs, etc).

Then, the cat tripped me up walking down stairs...I 'fell' exactly one stair and broke a bone in my foot. $1700 for xrays, office visit, etc plus all the pain meds they wanted me on.

Care to keep trying?
 
2012-05-30 11:39:51 AM  

xaks: Bullseyed: xaks: What the hell are you on? You can't rent a doghouse for $500. And you can't pay to move for less than that either.

The Cell you can get by without, but no insurance? Know how I know you've never stepped off a curb wrong and turned an ankle real bad? Or gotten influenza?

Pay to move? What is that?

It is easy to rent for under $500, but a 30 yr mortgage on a $125,000 house is less than that so might as well buy.

You don't need health insurance for a sprained ankle or the flu.

Most of all though we can tell how unintelligent you are based on your grammar.

Really now?

No rent here under four digit range, unless you want to live in Crackville.

My last bout of influenza (three years ago, nasty one) ran me a 103 fever and projectile vomiting and dehydration to the point of "not being able to sit up unassisted" nausea. That would have cost just under $2000 (doc showed me the paperwork afterwards - blood work & labs, etc).

Then, the cat tripped me up walking down stairs...I 'fell' exactly one stair and broke a bone in my foot. $1700 for xrays, office visit, etc plus all the pain meds they wanted me on.

Care to keep trying?


Well I fell down the stairs and broke every bone in my body and it was free!

I said it, it must be true.


If the only rent is over $1,000, then you can't live in whatever the rich part of NYC is. Move to a reasonable place.
 
2012-05-30 12:29:52 PM  

Bullseyed: xaks: Bullseyed: xaks: What the hell are you on? You can't rent a doghouse for $500. And you can't pay to move for less than that either.

The Cell you can get by without, but no insurance? Know how I know you've never stepped off a curb wrong and turned an ankle real bad? Or gotten influenza?

Pay to move? What is that?

It is easy to rent for under $500, but a 30 yr mortgage on a $125,000 house is less than that so might as well buy.

You don't need health insurance for a sprained ankle or the flu.

Most of all though we can tell how unintelligent you are based on your grammar.

Really now?

No rent here under four digit range, unless you want to live in Crackville.

My last bout of influenza (three years ago, nasty one) ran me a 103 fever and projectile vomiting and dehydration to the point of "not being able to sit up unassisted" nausea. That would have cost just under $2000 (doc showed me the paperwork afterwards - blood work & labs, etc).

Then, the cat tripped me up walking down stairs...I 'fell' exactly one stair and broke a bone in my foot. $1700 for xrays, office visit, etc plus all the pain meds they wanted me on.

Care to keep trying?

Well I fell down the stairs and broke every bone in my body and it was free!

I said it, it must be true.


If the only rent is over $1,000, then you can't live in whatever the rich part of NYC is. Move to a reasonable place.


How should one pay the necessary monies to move to Dry Hump, Nebraska or where-ever you live that you can rent a mansion for $500 a month? Even a small u-haul trailer one way is 400-1000$, depending on all the fine print. Assuming, of course, you don't have a whole house full of stuff...

Around here, where there are farking jobs and small businesses that actually hire people for more than minimum wage, rent is higher. If you want to stay living 10 miles from where Jesus lost his sandals, be my guest. But your points are absolutely invalid in 90% of suburbia or urban America.

A single mis-step, about the size of a curb, would have cost me almost 2000$. Bad luck to get influenza was even more. I see you kinda forgot to address either of these as well.
 
2012-05-30 01:23:11 PM  

Bullseyed: Corporate Self: "You need 2-5 years experience" is in the job ad genius. No one says anything like that at or after the interview.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Apply anyway.

You have no idea how to get a job.


I'm was the CTO for a mid-cap software company in CA for years. I've interviewed and hired dozens of tech. professionals over my career. I am now starting my own company and hopefully will be hiring additional staff soon.

I've been on both sides of the interview table and you obviously have not.
 
2012-05-30 01:30:47 PM  

Corporate Self: Bullseyed: Corporate Self: "You need 2-5 years experience" is in the job ad genius. No one says anything like that at or after the interview.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Apply anyway.

You have no idea how to get a job.

I'm was the CTO for a mid-cap software company in CA for years. I've interviewed and hired dozens of tech. professionals over my career. I am now starting my own company and hopefully will be hiring additional staff soon.

I've been on both sides of the interview table and you obviously have not.


I'm in management at a Fortune100 company. My position is partially sponsored by a Fortune 15 company.


Starting your own company "soon" since you can't get a job. Check.
 
2012-05-30 01:31:38 PM  
puffy999 :You have no apparent financial education or acumen, yet you're telling us, based on your experience with a place like MCDONALDS, that businesses don't want to invest in staff because of... minimum wage laws?

And, in reality, your final paragraph has more to do with inflation than the minimum wage (which are connected, but min. wage is only a SMALL part of this nation's inflationary problems in the recent past), although your solution is just as asinine for either scenario.

I work in the newspaper industry. I think I know a tad bit more than you about how skilled labor is getting the shaft. And in some ways, minimum wage laws are responsible (but not in the way you think). They should be tiered so that, say, the 5 minutes of training required to make a burger flipper won't be treated the same as a person who can run printing machinery where you literally need to work a full year before you understand the intricacies of the job.
I worked in retail when I was a teenager (where, really, the skills were common sense and an ability to not piss off customers), and if I were to have stayed there and NOT received a true promotion to management, I'd be making about $12/hr per the company's policies regarding mandatory wage increases. That's MORE than the lead press person at the local newspaper makes.


Clearly, you also fail reading comprehension. Nowhere did I make a connection between why compaines dont train and McDonalds, other than to say that companies dont invest in dry holes. My fiscal and business skills are clearly better than most, as im not one of the folks in here crying about how they cant make a living wage. No, im in here to mock poor people and their self-inflicted wounds.

But lets talk about training. I get all the training I can handle. Always have. Both at McDonalds and my current job as an automotive tech I have made it clear to my bosses that investment in me will pay off. So I get all the classes I want. I have a co-worker who doesnt want the training, and he's basically worked himself out of the field at this point because of it. Cars change faster than the average consumer think, and you pretty much have to be an electrical genius to work on them today. Unless you just want to do the peon brakes/tires/oil change stuff and make no money. So he's a dry hole. Im not.

The pressman is making shiat money because he is in a dying field. Just saying. One day cars will be so cheap they arent worth fixing, till then I've got mad job security. It's called thinking ahead. Dont be the last rat off the sinking ship.

Some of you clearly need a reality check. If you dont have any work in your field to put on a resume, hello entry level. Im sure you had a great thesis, and maybe even did some really awesome lab work. But that is all theory, and the real world is more than theory. You havent really proven you can apply the theory yet. So you may have to take that shiat job for a year or two to prove you can do it. This isnt uncommon. Hell, guys i was in tech school with are driving pizza because even though they graduated and got the job, they could not hack it. They either could not apply the theory, or didnt know the theory well enough. In my field, you must be able to do both. A box full of tools isnt enough, and replacing the failed part is usually the easy step.
 
2012-05-30 03:00:49 PM  

xaks: dantheman195:

Rent a two bedroom for $500 and get a responsible roommate or share the lease with someone and split the rent and utilities 50/50, savings $205 a month

Get a T-Mobile prepay, 1000 minutes/texts for $100 and they last a year, savings $32 a month

Don't get health insurance, your doc will accept cash and will give you a good deal savings $130 a month

Don't get renter's insurance, you don't have any worth stealing savings $15 a month

Share the cable tv ...

What the hell are you on? You can't rent a doghouse for $500. And you can't pay to move for less than that either.

The Cell you can get by without, but no insurance? Know how I know you've never stepped off a curb wrong and turned an ankle real bad? Or gotten influenza?


The poster was talking about ohio, you could probably rent an entire house for $500 a month there.

Lets talk about insurance for a moment, insurance companies are betting that everything with you will be alright and that you are giving them $$$ for the possibility that something might go wrong. It is about risk, if you are healthy, can balance a checkbook and have the discipline to save money, you can do what the Insurance Company is already doing for you, except, when you don;t need the money, it is yours, with insurance, they keep the money regardless.

And of course they write your policy so if something really bad happens, you are either not covered or have high deductibles.

Also that $50 copay you pay your doctor, I bet he would take $60 cash just so he doesn't have to mess with the insurance company for reimbursement, and some do.
 
2012-05-30 03:07:01 PM  

xaks: Bullseyed: xaks: Bullseyed: xaks: What the hell are you on? You can't rent a doghouse for $500. And you can't pay to move for less than that either.

The Cell you can get by without, but no insurance? Know how I know you've never stepped off a curb wrong and turned an ankle real bad? Or gotten influenza?

Pay to move? What is that?

It is easy to rent for under $500, but a 30 yr mortgage on a $125,000 house is less than that so might as well buy.

You don't need health insurance for a sprained ankle or the flu.

Most of all though we can tell how unintelligent you are based on your grammar.

Really now?

No rent here under four digit range, unless you want to live in Crackville.

My last bout of influenza (three years ago, nasty one) ran me a 103 fever and projectile vomiting and dehydration to the point of "not being able to sit up unassisted" nausea. That would have cost just under $2000 (doc showed me the paperwork afterwards - blood work & labs, etc).

Then, the cat tripped me up walking down stairs...I 'fell' exactly one stair and broke a bone in my foot. $1700 for xrays, office visit, etc plus all the pain meds they wanted me on.

Care to keep trying?

Well I fell down the stairs and broke every bone in my body and it was free!

I said it, it must be true.


If the only rent is over $1,000, then you can't live in whatever the rich part of NYC is. Move to a reasonable place.

How should one pay the necessary monies to move to Dry Hump, Nebraska or where-ever you live that you can rent a mansion for $500 a month? Even a small u-haul trailer one way is 400-1000$, depending on all the fine print. Assuming, of course, you don't have a whole house full of stuff...

Around here, where there are farking jobs and small businesses that actually hire people for more than minimum wage, rent is higher. If you want to stay living 10 miles from where Jesus lost his sandals, be my guest. But your points are absolutely invalid in 90% of suburbia or urban America.

A single mi ...


Simple, stuff whatever you can in your car, your clothes, important items, sell whatever you can on craigslist for cash and trash what doesn't.

Move to new location and buy the stuff you need on craiglists for cash

See? Cheaper than a U Haul

You just gotta think
 
2012-05-30 06:43:01 PM  

Bullseyed: Guelph35: karmaceutical: So what is the purpose of minimum wage then?

To prevent companies from trying to pay people zero.

Please cite the line in the Constitution that says the government is allowed to infringe on the rights of businesses.


Article I, Section 8, Clause 3:

[The Congress shall have Power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes;


\What do I win, a subscription to Troll Monthly?
 
2012-05-30 08:43:29 PM  

Bullseyed: I'm in management at a Fortune100 company. My position is partially sponsored by a Fortune 15 company.


Bullshiat
 
2012-06-01 01:20:57 PM  

Evil Twin Skippy: Yes, but my point is that unlike other people with degrees, I have to UNTRAIN them first.


I've been programming computers for almost 20 years and have never felt the need to "untrain" someone out of a $40K education. Stop hiring people, you are driving them insane.
 
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