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(Globe and Mail)   Stuxnet was just a preview. Welcome Flame   (theglobeandmail.com) divider line 105
    More: Scary, Stuxnet, Kaspersky, gold mine, keystrokes, Hang Seng, computers  
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13566 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 May 2012 at 11:04 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-29 12:03:42 PM

lucksi: Does everything have to have an internet connection? When I read that they had problems on the LHC and nuke plants; I can only wonder why you connect those computers to the net.


You're mean! How dare you take away the ability of centrifuges to play Farmville. Do you know how boring it is to spin around in circles all day? Mindlessly clicking in the Skinner Box called Farmville is all that keeps these machines from blowing themselves up.

/Yes, the machines committed suicide. Had nothing to do with any sort of black ops.
//This means Zynga gives aid and comfort to the enemy. Let the bombing begin!
 
2012-05-29 12:04:49 PM

CheatCommando: This text is now purple: Also, no one can figure out how to consistently and reliably enable the microphone or copy-paste on Linux.

Maybe Linux needs this with some of the options being the ability to remotely download spontaneously create working drivers and install them?


FTFY. That which does not exist, requires creation before downloading. Just sayin'...

/love Linux, accept its limitations
 
2012-05-29 12:06:38 PM

JackieRabbit: The Flame virus is absolutely en fuego. It only attacks those filthy gay computers.


How ineffective. There are no gay computers in Iran.
 
2012-05-29 12:11:14 PM
"As with the previous two threats, this code was not likely to have been written by a single individual but by an organized, well-funded group of people working to a clear set of directives," Symantec said.

"Look, my BUG FIXES are more complex and sophisticated that this piece of garbage," Tarn Adams said.
 
2012-05-29 12:16:16 PM

Corporate Self: This is neither good nor harmless. There is nothing to stop the targets of this attack from analyzing the code and then using the same code against the attackers. The same vulnerabilities exist in computers around the world. Like gun ownership where is good chance that gun will be wrested away and used against you. This technology is now "in the wild" and ready to improved upon (by rogue governments and organized crime) and unleashed on the general population.

You have cheer at the destruction of Iranian centrifuges, but you may not be so cheery about Russian mobsters using the same code to clean out your bank account.


I wouldn't feel so bad if it went towards the purchase of mini giraffes.
 
2012-05-29 12:24:41 PM
I blame zombo.com
 
2012-05-29 12:29:24 PM
Little known fact: Primary infection vector proven to be pirated floppies of Battletoads.
 
2012-05-29 12:33:56 PM

Moderate Threadjacker: Good thing they would never use something like this against U.S. citizens


They don't need to. We have Facebook.
 
2012-05-29 12:35:18 PM
The cure for all these things is always the same: don't use Windows.
 
2012-05-29 12:36:27 PM

symbolset: The cure for all these things is always the same: unreasoning platform snobbery.


FIFTY
 
2012-05-29 12:55:24 PM

Corporate Self: This is neither good nor harmless. There is nothing to stop the targets of this attack from analyzing the code and then using the same code against the attackers. The same vulnerabilities exist in computers around the world. Like gun ownership where is good chance that gun will be wrested away and used against you. This technology is now "in the wild" and ready to improved upon (by rogue governments and organized crime) and unleashed on the general population.


Between the world wars there was a battleship design philosophy known as 'balanced armor'. Any ship that mounted, say, 14" guns should have armor thick enough to repel hits from 14" guns.

I wouldn't be surprised if the people who designed this already had procedures to defend against it should it be used against friendly entities.
 
2012-05-29 12:56:42 PM

KimNorth: "Kaspersky says it can also turn computers into eavesdropping devices, taking information from phones that could be nearby."

//and everyone said I was nuts when I pointed out that a T.V. connected to cable could be used and reversed to spy on you in your home.....


Oh dear
farm4.staticflickr.com
Please don't break the internet.
 
2012-05-29 01:02:58 PM

Jubeebee: I wouldn't be surprised if the people who designed this already had procedures to defend against it should it be used against friendly entities.


Yeah, but as with Stuxnet, the source is now in the open. Outgrowths of viral code like this don't necessarily need to be direct derivatives of that code. The inspiration could be enough.

I mean on the one hand, you have what I will presume is first world nations opening the door to digital warfare.

On the other, it was inevitable. As we rely more and more on computers to do things for us, it's only logical that they will eventually be recognized as a valid front for warfare.

The first fact would make me considerably less concerned if those first world nations were led by people who intrinsically understand very basic concepts in computing- like how you don't have to have AOL to get on the intertubes...
 
2012-05-29 01:05:54 PM

symbolset: The cure for all these things is always the same: don't use Windows.


okay sparky, whatever you say. Put your average dipshiat Windows user on a Linux box and they'll have that thing farked six ways from Sunday inside of five minutes.

it ain't the OS, it's the meat-based input device.
 
2012-05-29 01:09:09 PM

miss diminutive: I hope it won't affect any Iranian missile tests. They're crazy enough as it is.

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 529x352]


Make me laugh...every time.
 
2012-05-29 01:17:03 PM

SkunkWerks: Yeah, but as with Stuxnet, the source is now in the open.


It is? I thought it was only the binaries.
 
2012-05-29 01:26:53 PM

Fubini: It's OK, I wrote my own operating system. I'm hoping to add USB support sometime next year.


I look forward to exploiting your stack overflows.
 
2012-05-29 02:00:28 PM

CheatCommando: This text is now purple: Also, no one can figure out how to consistently and reliably enable the microphone or copy-paste on Linux.

Maybe Linux needs this with some of the options being the ability to remotely download working drivers and install them?


i.techrepublic.com.com
 
2012-05-29 02:01:15 PM

lucksi: Does everything have to have an internet connection? When I read that they had problems on the LHC and nuke plants; I can only wonder why you connect those computers to the net.


Not sure if serious...

Stuxnet wasn't downloaded via the Internet. Somebody either loaded it onto the computers manually onsite, or it was pre-loaded onto the computers by somebody at the plant where they were manufactured.
 
2012-05-29 02:04:13 PM

Double-oh Steven: it was pre-loaded onto the computers by somebody at the plant where they were manufactured.


Almost bingo.

Probable modes of infection included the plant itself, or during shipment.
 
2012-05-29 02:59:23 PM

Double-oh Steven: lucksi: Does everything have to have an internet connection? When I read that they had problems on the LHC and nuke plants; I can only wonder why you connect those computers to the net.

Not sure if serious...

Stuxnet wasn't downloaded via the Internet. Somebody either loaded it onto the computers manually onsite, or it was pre-loaded onto the computers by somebody at the plant where they were manufactured.


I heard a story on NPR a few months ago about these kinds of viruses and they had some guy from a security firm on saying when they audit these nuke plants or NG power stations or dams or whatever they find that they can find a way in from the internet in almost all cases, usually it's some printer or something.
 
2012-05-29 03:01:33 PM
<Sigh>

Dont run Windows.

/ Or OSX
 
2012-05-29 03:02:48 PM

Odoriferous Queef: <Sigh>

Dont run Windows.

/ Or OSX


Don't run Homo Sapiens either.
 
2012-05-29 03:04:49 PM

Odoriferous Queef: <Sigh>

Dont run Windows.

/ Or OSX


I'm not sure PLC's run Windows. In fact, working with PLCs on a daily basis, I'm quite sure that none of the one's I interact with run Windows.
 
2012-05-29 03:09:11 PM

BeesNuts: Odoriferous Queef: <Sigh>

Dont run Windows.

/ Or OSX

I'm not sure PLC's run Windows. In fact, working with PLCs on a daily basis, I'm quite sure that none of the one's I interact with run Windows.


Don't screw up my troll with facts. Thank you.

/ had a chance to start a war with people who didn't RTFA.
 
2012-05-29 03:17:33 PM

Odoriferous Queef: BeesNuts: Odoriferous Queef: <Sigh>

Dont run Windows.

/ Or OSX

I'm not sure PLC's run Windows. In fact, working with PLCs on a daily basis, I'm quite sure that none of the one's I interact with run Windows.

Don't screw up my troll with facts. Thank you.

/ had a chance to start a war with people who didn't RTFA.


Don't run Homo Sapiens either.

Pretty sure they're compatible with PLCs... sadly.
 
2012-05-29 03:27:56 PM

Jubeebee: Corporate Self: This is neither good nor harmless. There is nothing to stop the targets of this attack from analyzing the code and then using the same code against the attackers. The same vulnerabilities exist in computers around the world. Like gun ownership where is good chance that gun will be wrested away and used against you. This technology is now "in the wild" and ready to improved upon (by rogue governments and organized crime) and unleashed on the general population.

Between the world wars there was a battleship design philosophy known as 'balanced armor'. Any ship that mounted, say, 14" guns should have armor thick enough to repel hits from 14" guns.

I wouldn't be surprised if the people who designed this already had procedures to defend against it should it be used against friendly entities.


For their own systems maybe yes, but about the rest of us?
 
2012-05-29 03:36:48 PM
Quite often the computers that are running the scientific equipment or whatever aren't connected to the internet and they don't need to be to get infected by an virus that comes from there. All it takes is one guy to take his laptop home, get it infected by going wherever, and then plug it into the company network that isn't connected to the internet when he goes to work the next day to make a quick modification to the PLC's to infect everyone.
 
2012-05-29 03:42:25 PM
When I was in Kabul a few years back. I was brought the laptop that ran the Instrument Landing System or something like that at the Airport. It had windows on it and loads of viruses and other sorts of malware. It took me hours just to get to the point that Symantec would load.

Once I was done I told them that they should have it on the internet if they didn't want to get it infected...they told me it had to be on the net for some information or something like that. They just had to tell the staff to stop using it on the internet.

Seems the Polish contingent was using it to search for Jihadi 'porn'. Beheading videos, bombs, IEDs, suicide videos and whatnot. These were the trainers.

The Afghanis (trainees) were using it to watch good old 'porn'. Of course it was more in the line of German porn and whatnot.

/csb
 
2012-05-29 03:42:48 PM

This text is now purple: Linux_Yes: darn it, Linux is too smart for Flame.

Also, no one can figure out how to consistently and reliably enable the microphone or copy-paste on Linux.


Also, they forgot to preface the execution scripts with "sudo".
 
2012-05-29 04:19:33 PM
Wow, this thing can take screenshots, eavesdrop on conversations and steal data.

And not the built in versions!!


/foiled by slashies
 
2012-05-29 04:51:01 PM

CheatCommando: This text is now purple: Also, no one can figure out how to consistently and reliably enable the microphone or copy-paste on Linux.

Maybe Linux needs this with some of the options being the ability to remotely download working drivers and install them?


Maybe. However I just upgraded the mobo/cpu/mem on my computer. Two the Linux distros I use had no issues with any of the device drivers (outside of needing to download/install the nVidia driver. Which one of the distros, Ubuntu prompts for). Windows 7 didn't fair to well. It needed almost every single driver on the board outside of the onboard HD SATA devices.

Also, with my Linux distros, one around of downloads and I was patched to the latest and greatest (approximate time = 40mins downloading and installing). With Windows, the computer spent over three+ hours downloading/installing and rebooting. That time doesn't include the 45mins the computer spent updating to SP1. I'm pretty sure I bounced the box over 10 times. Every time I thought I was done, there was another .net hotfix/client policy.

So yeah, just calling shenanigans on that comment.
 
2012-05-29 05:12:06 PM

Thorazine: CheatCommando: This text is now purple: Also, no one can figure out how to consistently and reliably enable the microphone or copy-paste on Linux.

Maybe Linux needs this with some of the options being the ability to remotely download working drivers and install them?

Maybe. However I just upgraded the mobo/cpu/mem on my computer. Two the Linux distros I use had no issues with any of the device drivers (outside of needing to download/install the nVidia driver. Which one of the distros, Ubuntu prompts for). Windows 7 didn't fair to well. It needed almost every single driver on the board outside of the onboard HD SATA devices.

Also, with my Linux distros, one around of downloads and I was patched to the latest and greatest (approximate time = 40mins downloading and installing). With Windows, the computer spent over three+ hours downloading/installing and rebooting. That time doesn't include the 45mins the computer spent updating to SP1. I'm pretty sure I bounced the box over 10 times. Every time I thought I was done, there was another .net hotfix/client policy.

So yeah, just calling shenanigans on that comment.


Because we know we can extrapolate from one specific circumstance to the general case. I've seen install hell on Linux and Windows. The only OS that doesn't have it is OSX, and that is because You Will Run The Hardware You Are GIven And You Will Like It, which brings its own set of problems.

I am willing to deal with those problems. You may not be, and that is fine.

I do wonder why many Linux users lack any sense of humor about their situation though. They can't all trying to be humorless boring zealots like RMS or something, can they? I have a feeling Linus himself would have chuckled at the original post.
 
2012-05-29 05:27:00 PM
I'm constantly amused by the people who complain about Linux distros, even the quasi-commercial ones like Ubuntu. "WAAAAHHHH!!!! I downloaded [distro of choice] for FREE from teh Intarwebz, and it didn't come with instructions, and now my LPT scanner from 1996 won't work!!! WAAAAAHHHHH!!!! Why won't any of my Sony hardware work with it? Linux is teh suck!!!"

Seriously, those people are better off with Steve Jobs' hand-holding little McComputer...
 
2012-05-29 05:47:05 PM

Moderate Threadjacker: Oops wrong link. I meant: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/05/flame/


I knew it was wrong, but since I just got Ghost Recon: Future Soldier, I thought the other link was pretty interesting, too.

cdn.gamerant.com
 
2012-05-29 06:16:08 PM
Was it deployed via coders strapped into ultralight aircraft night dropped over their targets?
 
2012-05-29 06:19:59 PM

RicosRoughnecks: I blame zombo.com

zombo.com will steal your children and shiat in your bed.
/Anything is possible.
 
2012-05-29 06:27:11 PM
Wouldn't this have been just as effective as a trojan?

www.cultdeadcow.com


/mooo
 
2012-05-29 06:46:36 PM

imontheinternet: JackieRabbit: The Flame virus is absolutely en fuego. It only attacks those filthy gay computers.

How ineffective. There are no gay computers in Iran.


Correct.

In Iran, they don't have homosexual computers like in your country. They don't have that in their country. In Iran, they do not have this phenomenon. I do not know who has told you that they have it.
 
2012-05-29 07:56:38 PM

SkunkWerks: Odoriferous Queef: <Sigh>

Dont run Windows.

/ Or OSX

Don't run Homo Sapiens either.


And for the love of jeezy Pete, don't run with scissors.
 
2012-05-29 10:26:54 PM
Explain to me again why this sort of thing isn't cyber-terrorism when Israel does it? I guess it's for the same reason waterboarding isn't torture when America does it, and internet censorship isn't an abuse of civil rights when France does it...
 
2012-05-29 11:53:41 PM
I believe that PLC's run on QNX. According to a quick google search of "plc qnx siemens"

If that's true... Then all "security" of QNX on BB10 is a joke if Stuxnet/Flame works on it.
 
2012-05-30 12:13:49 AM

Nogale: Sir Not Sure The Unscannable: TFA: "Certain file names associated with the threat are identical to those described in an incident involving the Iranian Oil Ministry."

If this doesn't scream Mossad, I don't know what does.

Except that Israeli computers are infected, too.


Collateral damage is both expected and acceptable. And while the Israelis do have privacy laws, they also have this nice little clause built in that says that among other things, any limits set on the right to privacy "must benefit the values of Israel". I'm thinking this could qualify, but I don't have a Fark Law GED, and I got hit a few too many times in the head tonight.

Ultimately what I got out of it was, "Who cares if we infect our own country? We might get some good info (TERRORIST RELATED OF COURSE), here, too."

Israeli Data and Privacy Protection if anyone wants to look
 
2012-05-30 01:17:19 AM
So I guess we've decided we can beat Iran at computer science.

Beats shooting at them.
 
2012-05-30 02:01:11 AM

BeesNuts: Odoriferous Queef: <Sigh>

Dont run Windows.

/ Or OSX

I'm not sure PLC's run Windows. In fact, working with PLCs on a daily basis, I'm quite sure that none of the one's I interact with run Windows.


The PLCs don't need to run windows if the controller software runs on Windows boxes....

Double-oh Steven: lucksi: Does everything have to have an internet connection? When I read that they had problems on the LHC and nuke plants; I can only wonder why you connect those computers to the net.

Not sure if serious...

Stuxnet wasn't downloaded via the Internet. Somebody either loaded it onto the computers manually onsite, or it was pre-loaded onto the computers by somebody at the plant where they were manufactured.


It still spread via RPC calls and a few other vectors to computers connected to an internal network. It might not have been "on the net," but they were on a net.
 
2012-05-30 02:24:27 AM
Moonlightfox

Explain to me again why this sort of thing isn't cyber-terrorism when Israel does it? I guess it's for the same reason waterboarding isn't torture when America does it, and internet censorship isn't an abuse of civil rights when France does it...

You don't know what the word terrorism means.

/ don't feel bad, neither do most of our politicians
// heisenberg - yes but then they'd have to pay royalties to veracode
 
2012-05-30 07:34:59 AM

Moonlightfox: Explain to me again why this sort of thing isn't cyber-terrorism when Israel does it?


I dunno. I just want someone to explain to me why putting the word "cyber" as a prefix to any other word when it's computer-related is a great idea.

It makes you sound like a geriatric on a quest for your missing AOL disk, and not in any way computer-savvy.


By the way, you don't sound sure if you want people to explain that to you.
 
2012-05-30 07:58:07 AM

Corporate Self: Like gun ownership where is good chance that gun will be wrested away and used against you.


Actually, that very rarely happens. It's actually more likely to happen to a mugger than someone defending themselves, based upon the limited data available:

Criminal's gun taken away and used against him (198 examples)

Defender's gun taken away and used against him (9 examples)
 
2012-05-30 10:30:16 AM

redmid17: BeesNuts: Odoriferous Queef: <Sigh>

Dont run Windows.

/ Or OSX

I'm not sure PLC's run Windows. In fact, working with PLCs on a daily basis, I'm quite sure that none of the one's I interact with run Windows.

The PLCs don't need to run windows if the controller software runs on Windows boxes....

Double-oh Steven: lucksi: Does everything have to have an internet connection? When I read that they had problems on the LHC and nuke plants; I can only wonder why you connect those computers to the net.

Not sure if serious...

Stuxnet wasn't downloaded via the Internet. Somebody either loaded it onto the computers manually onsite, or it was pre-loaded onto the computers by somebody at the plant where they were manufactured.

It still spread via RPC calls and a few other vectors to computers connected to an internal network. It might not have been "on the net," but they were on a net.


Fair, but the vulnerability would still be the PLC, not Windows. I guess YMMV depending on the communication protocol you're using? Shrug.
 
2012-05-30 10:36:49 AM

SkunkWerks: Double-oh Steven: it was pre-loaded onto the computers by somebody at the plant where they were manufactured.

Almost bingo.

Probable modes of infection included the plant itself, or during shipment.


Stuxnet's infection vextor was from (more than likely) USB keys using the vulnerability that allowed .lnk (shorcut) files to run code automatically simply by the user opening the folder that contained the .lnk file.

Then once it was on one computer on the network it could spread via other methods to other connected PC's. The extra bonus being that, quite often, machines that are on a supposedely isolated LAN are not patched anywhere near as often as those with access to Windows Update, so once you have one, you have them all.
 
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