Huskadoodle: tblax: Obviously not every dead soldier is a hero. If someone really needs to be told this then they're probably not someone you should attempt to have a conversation with.

Hayes has got a point. And for the people complaining about the timing of his comments


Perhaps they have a point, why now?

I'd say probably because they were on the subject of soldiers? It's a little tough to say what everyone else was talking about when the clip in TFA is only that one controversial minute, but it seems like they were expressing their thoughts on soldiers, and he stated his.

Wouldn't bringing it up totally out of the blue be even more inappropriate? Is there a potential time where it wouldn't seem inappropriate to talk about it? I think hearing it is going to hurt some people no matter when it's said, but sometimes difficult things need to be heard

unyon: Good call. You just may of a calibre to be a future president.

You have to be unable to balance a budget to be a future president. Show me your lack of math skills, then just maybe....

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: skullkrusher: I know a few marines who have taken shiats smarter than the two of you who don't do it for lack of prospects in the civilian world

And, I'm sure, several who couldn't find their asses with both hands and a map.

I was being a dick but my point was his service doesn't necessarily make his opinion on this any more valuable than Rove's or Hayes' or anyone else's. In fact, this is part of the problem. Not only can't you be critical of military action without being labeled disloyal, civilians are forbidden to debate soldiers no matter how asinine Sgt. Deadhead's arguments are.

If you can't make your case without waving a flag or showing your tattoos that is just a fncking weak argument.

You get 1 point for service, not a pass.

This I can agree with.

But the "couldn't find a real job" or whatever shtick was a bullshiat thing to say.

Anyways, I'm a service member. Not a hero. I'm an air traffic controller. Definitely not a hero. And I don't disagree with what the guy said.

That being said- don't shiat on service members. Also, they're not soldiers. They're soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen.

/pops enlisted directly out of college, served 30 years.
//never met a colleague without a GED, most have at least associates degrees.
///Guaranteed, more than half of you don't have the intellectual stones to work my bullshiat, couldn't get another job, low iq military job (statistics are about right, as is my cache of washout packages)
////too many slashies

I watched the 1 minute video clip and he was absolutely 100% correct. if you blindly call people heroes simply for being a member of the military you are part of the goddamn problem

If Robert Bales died in Afghanistan would he be a hero?

If someone had shot him mid-massacre I'd probably call them a hero

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: KittenMittons: That being said- don't shiat on service members.

Listen up, hero.

F*CK YOU.

How 'bout we just don't sh*t on people in general?

Not sure how those two are mutually exclusive, but okay, uh...hero.

jehovahs witness protection: Welcome to the scumbag SOB thread.
Please feel free to F*CK yourself if you agree with the MSNBC scum.

My dad is a veteran. He is a VERY far right Evangelical Christian who thinks MSNBC is the work of the devil (not kidding).

He watched the entire clip online with me, and understood what Chris Hayes was saying.

Did you watch the entire video? Did you watch the opening segment? Did you do anything beyond letting Newsbusters provide you with your opinion? I'm asking seriously. The entire show is online. It would only take 10 minutes of your time.

skinnycatullus: Hell, he's not even doing that much. He agrees that war dead should be memorialized and honored. He is just questioning whether they should all be called heroes.

I remember a comment from a sailor. One moment we;re sleeping in our bunks, the next moment a bunch of guys are dead and the rest of us are supposedly hero's. My uncle was a aircraft mechanic in Britain during the war. Sure the Germans could have dropped a bomb on him. I doubt he would have considered that heroism on his part. My other uncle served in Vietnam in the coast guard, got shot, doesn't think of himself as a hero.

The better part is people do heroic things. In uniform, out of uniform. And often, very often in the case of soldiers, the heroism is necessitated because of someone else's monumental screw up.

Then there is this guy

The entire show is very thought provoking. I recommend those forming an opinion actually take the time to watch it online.

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: KittenMittons: That being said- don't shiat on service members.

Listen up, hero.

F*CK YOU.

How 'bout we just don't sh*t on people in general?

So you're just tossing out fark yous in the interest of not shiatting on anyone, yeah?

abrown28: It's funny how liberals can see blind hero worship where there is none but fail to see it in themselves. If you're a liberal can you admit to any of Obama's failings?

Why would being liberal somehow preclude you front criticizing a center right president?

I think the caveats he gave about his statement were sufficient, and he pussyfooted around the point enough that I'm not offended and don't see why anyone would be. On the same note, you'd never see a Fox host say he might be wrong.

lilplatinum: abrown28: It's funny how liberals can see blind hero worship where there is none but fail to see it in themselves. If you're a liberal can you admit to any of Obama's failings?

Why would being liberal somehow preclude you front criticizing a center right president?

Dude, it's obvious. Libz just love farts and bongos. The good old' boy republicans would never blindly support somebody based on a letter next to their name.

The progressives recognize that we have been involved with many too many wars over the last 100+ years, and only 2 of them were legit, WWII and OBL.
What we would like, and what would make Con war mongers upset, is if NOBODY agreed to fight for all these wars Cons want us in. Let the Cons fight the wars themselves, except..well.. the war mongers tend to be draft-dodgers.
Hayes and some other libs make the mistake of not giving credit to the young men and women who do what their country asks of them, regardless of bad or good motives for the wars. While I condemn the war mongers, I give my respect and admiration for our soldiers.
So, WTF are we still doing in Afghanistan? OBL is dead. Declare victory and GTFO!

It looks like the big problem here is how people define the word "hero." Some of y'all think that it just someone who makes a sacrifice for another; other believe that someone has to go above and beyond to warrant the label.

It seems most people here think it's the latter, but I lean more towards throwing the word around a lot, although I tend to use the phrase "heroic action". Things like a parent working 18 hours a day to support their family is heroic, or someone consistently donating to charity is heroic. Of course, doing something heroic doesn't necessarily make you holier than Jesus, but I think it is something that should be commended.

KittenMittons: So you're just tossing out fark yous in the interest of not shiatting on anyone, yeah?

I was really hoping you would bring this up. I'm not one to swear, and tend to avoid commenters who do swear (I made an exception when someone decided they could denigrate my father for having an opinion about war and the use of the word hero).

This was SO blatant! Do you think he even sees it?

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: KittenMittons: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: KittenMittons: That being said- don't shiat on service members.

Listen up, hero.

F*CK YOU.

How 'bout we just don't sh*t on people in general?

So you're just tossing out fark yous in the interest of not shiatting on anyone, yeah?

I'm just tossing out f*ck yous to anyone asking for a pass for a uniform.
Anyone IN a uniform should know better.

I don't recall asking for a pass. I definitely don't feel that I need one. You might recall that I agreed with you on that point. My point was that your cant find a real job bullshiat was, in fact bullshiat. Which you've kind of already said anyway.

Do you have any substantive reasoning for a "fark you" directed at me?

gtfan92: It seems most people here think it's the latter, but I lean more towards throwing the word around a lot, although I tend to use the phrase "heroic action".

If you watch the entire segment (and the prior segment), he and his panel are making the point that the word hero has lost it's meaning. It is being used more as justification than as a compliment. They are all "hero's", so you are not allowed to question the wars, for example.

He makes it VERY clear he is in no way denigrating service members, or their service (he has on a man who wrote a book about delivering the news of a soldiers death, and talks about military suicides in other segments). They just discuss how words like hero and valor have been co-opted unfairly.

The segment on military suicides made me cry.

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: KittenMittons: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: KittenMittons: That being said- don't shiat on service members.

Listen up, hero.

F*CK YOU.

How 'bout we just don't sh*t on people in general?

So you're just tossing out fark yous in the interest of not shiatting on anyone, yeah?

I'm just tossing out f*ck yous to anyone asking for a pass for a uniform.
Anyone IN a uniform should know better.

And just so you're aware, I'm not trying to attack you, or anything like that. I wasn't originally, either. But it does seen like you're skewed to immediate dismissal of service, rather than not taking service as a "pass". This has been pretty evident in your posts, I think. And as a long time reader of fark, I do want to add that I agree with you most of the time.

vartian: In fairness, Hayes and the other panel members distinguished between their respect for the valor of the individual military members who had given their lives with the worthiness of the various causes in which they fought.

Even Newsbusters is willing to give him proper of credit. Did any of you even watch the video? I also have an issue with automatically slapping any fallen soldier with the word hero. It leads to inflated stories about their heroism (the rescue of Jessica Lynch, for example), and an unwillingness for some of the most "patriotic" among us to accept when our soldiers commit crimes or greater atrocities.

If a man dies serving this country, he died a brave, honorable death. If every one of them was a hero then we'd be tossing around a lot more medals. And the fact that he tried to bring up this topic carefully and considerately and you three just beat the shiat out of him for it just proves his point.

THIS

Not reading 10 more pages of Fark. Thread's done on the 4th post.

Since he's so unappreciative of the people who give him his freedoms, I say dump this asshole into the worst country we can think of. Maybe if he lives and makes it back, he'll realize why they're heroes.

(Even then, I say we just do it again and everytime he shows up again.)

And yes, EVERY fallen soldier is a hero. They signed up to serve their country, they have no control how or why. You are free to disagree with policy or motivation of your leaders. The soldiers are here so you don't have to be. They have no control over or not their war is 'just' because frankly over half the country is stupid at any given time (hell most of us didn't want to go to war with the NAZIS).

Kids today are disgusting that they forget these simple truths..

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: KittenMittons: Do you have any substantive reasoning for a "fark you" directed at me?

"That being said- don't shiat on service members."

And, AGAIN, one can't disagree with a SERVICE MEMBER without catching sh*t for it.
Why? Cuz they're all f*cking HEROES.

Had I told some asshole he was a janitor or a waiter because he couldn't find a real job would anyone even blink?

You're misunderstanding me, then, or I'm misunderstanding you.

Are you saying that there are individuals, not representing the lot of military members who do fit that description? Yeah. Okay, let's move on.

Are you shiatting on them as a whole? Okay, you're an ignorant dick weasel.

Again, you've already made that distinction. So I don't know why you're so mad at me.

Terrible Old Man: Since he's so unappreciative of the people who give him his freedoms, I say dump this asshole into the worst country we can think of. Maybe if he lives and makes it back, he'll realize why they're heroes.

(Even then, I say we just do it again and everytime he shows up again.)

You are looking very uninformed. I can tell you didn't watch the entire clip, or the show. What you are saying is EXACTLY opposite of his opinion.

I challenge you to go to msnbc.com and watch the entire show, then come back and say your opinion didn't change.

Terrible Old Man: And yes, EVERY fallen soldier is a hero. They signed up to serve their country, they have no control how or why. You are free to disagree with policy or motivation of your leaders. The soldiers are here so you don't have to be. They have no control over or not their war is 'just' because frankly over half the country is stupid at any given time (hell most of us didn't want to go to war with the NAZIS).

Kids today are disgusting that they forget these simple truths..



And now you are posting almost EXACTLY what he says on the show. If you took the time to not let newsbusters form your opinion, you would realize you and he agree.

Terrible Old Man: Since he's so unappreciative of the people who give him his freedoms, I say dump this asshole into the worst country we can think of. Maybe if he lives and makes it back, he'll realize why they're heroes.

(Even then, I say we just do it again and everytime he shows up again.)

Most honest and frank user name I've seen on Fark in a while

MSNBC, what do you expect?

Homos

Terrible Old Man: And yes, EVERY fallen soldier is a hero. They signed up to serve their country, they have no control how or why. You are free to disagree with policy or motivation of your leaders. The soldiers are here so you don't have to be. They have no control over or not their war is 'just' because frankly over half the country is stupid at any given time (hell most of us didn't want to go to war with the NAZIS).

Kids today are disgusting that they forget these simple truths..

What's disgusting is your idea that freedom of speech applies only to those who share your opinions. You are honestly spitting on the graves of the fallen.

violentsalvation: downpaymentblues, I did not see the whole thing. I can't stand this Chris Hayes guy, I think he is pretty awful, honestly, but I will look for it tomorrow and watch it because I trust your judgement.

I can't say I knew who he was before reading this story, so I have no prior bias. I just listened to the history of Memorial Day (some things I didn't know) and the panel talking about how the words are used now. I agree VERY much that we as a nation give lip service, while under funding the VA, ignoring PTSD until we couldn't ignore it any further, glossed over the suicide rate, etc.

All in all, it was thought provoking. I disagreed with some or their points, and agreed with others. My heart broke when he talked to the mother of a soldier who committed suicide. His commanding officer was certainly no "hero" with what he said.

violentsalvation: downpaymentblues, I did not see the whole thing. I can't stand this Chris Hayes guy, I think he is pretty awful, honestly, but I will look for it tomorrow and watch it because I trust your judgement.

I am watching one of his prior weeks shows. I can see why you don't like him.

I think "smarmy" is the word, lol...

skinnycatullus: Rights are universal and inalienable... unless you think our founding documents were just a bunch of pretty words with no meaning.

The only natural rights according to our government and founding documents are not even legally enforceable in court(life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) seeing as the Declaration of Independence isn't a document of law(it has been used in support or against arguments in court, but cannot be cited as law itself).

You're not a hero. Audie Murphy was a goddamned hero. That's why he's a legend, and you're a schmuck.

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: KittenMittons: So I don't know why you're so mad at me.

Just a little frustrated.

A Marine claimed getting through training and farting around the desert indicated some specialness. I disagreed in a dickish(but not at all unusual for Fark) manner.

But this uniform=hero bullsh*t is so ingrained it's the most interesting thing I've ever said in a thread. You can insult anyone on here with practically anything and you're a lot more likely to get silence or lulz than anything else.

You said, "Don't sh*t on service members." not, "No need to sh*t on anyone."

I'll give you points for knowledge of your MOS but don't claim you know jack about anything else just because you know how to shine your boots.

It's AFSC, for me, but that's beside the point.

Again, I agree with you. I'm assuming that you haven't been a military member, and as such, I'll assume that I know more of them than you do. And you're right. We're not all heroes. But we're not all optionless pieces of shiat, either.

I think your frustration with the direction our country has sent our military is clouding you. You do see how you are projecting, yeah?

I've got the same frustrations, man. I'll likely spend 12 of the next 18 months away from my newborn, in Korea. It's also, for me, a training program that gives her full medical benefits and gives me a 6 figure job should I choose to end my service. It's not the same for everyone, but we're not all pieces of shiat who had nothing else we could do.

That's all I'm saying.

The sheer volume of two-value thinking here would be astounding, except that I can remind myself it's a Fark thread..

The specific statement Haynes made boils down to an assertion that, in his mind, applying a positive statement to members of the military in general comes uncomfortably close to his notion of unthinking support for unthinking warmongering.

First and foremost, that's a statement about him.. his mind, his attitudes, his values. I personally find the opinion shallow and disrespectful on two counts: first, he seems to think people are so easily manipulated that the use of a single label can override their judgement.. my view (this being a statement about me, my mind, my attidudes, my values) is that this opinion shows disrepect for the public. I personally hold the idea that many, and in fact most people can be exposed to a word and still retain the capacity for critical thought. Second, Haynes's statement suggests to me that he's more interested in maintining his anti-war-thought-purity cred than in accepting a token statement of respect.

Here in this thread, we get the hardcore anti-war-thought purists echoing and amplifying the thesis to comical levels, and pretty much everyone else trying to reduce the concept of 'heroism' to a single moment that can be judged with binary yes/no certainty.

The thing that pains me most is the sheer level of ignorance about modern military practice that (so far) has gone undisputed. Today's trollus vulgaris internetatis is apparently far enough removed from events like the Battle of Stalingrad, Omaha Beach, the Blitz, the bombing of Dresden, and the "death from above" doctrine of Vietnam to appreciate what today's soldiers actually do.

So here's a quick review of some basic facts for all you trying to buff your 'cynical intellectual' cred by prattling on about today's military being a being a massive consumer venture:

If your cynicism was even vaguely tied to reality, our military would do things the easy way: saturation bombing of urban targets from high-altitude aircraft, ideally using long-range weaponry, without concern for civilian casualties.

Today's US ground troops operate under conditions that were considered military suicide as little as 25 years ago, and they do it with higher concern for the safety of individual soldiers and civlian noncombatants than any time in the history of armed conflict. They put themselves in harm's way because we, as a nation, don't feel good about turning entire cities into mass graves, or bombing hospitals to kill the enemy combatants using the patients as human shields.

They dig wells. They build schools. They build churches and/or mosques. They try to win hearts and minds because that leads to the best long-term solutions that involve people on both sides still being alive.

They do it the hard way, and they do it in places where people are willing to kill them, because that reflects our nation's current ideals.

Yeah.. the military is made up of individual humans. Yeah, some of those individual humans are right dicks. But the institution as a whole devotes a hell of a lot of effort and resources to measures that, on balance, try to represent the best ideals of what we believe about ourselves as a nation.

.. a nation also composed of individual humans, some of whom are right dicks.

Human speech, meanwhile, has this concept called 'hyperbole': deliberate overstatement of terms for dramatic effect. One of the first and surest signs that someone wants to be a dick in an argument is their rejection of that concept (while using it by the gallon, of course), and a descent into the most niggling details of semantics for the sake of enforcing a definition of terms that makes their position 'obvious and inevitable' to anyone whose higher language centers have been surgically removed.

If anyone's mind is too fragile to allow a modicum of hyperbole by applying the word 'hero' to the military in general, as a sign of respect for the legitimately honorable and valorous things soldiers have done, and the standards they try, on the whole, to observe -- on the grounds that allowing such thoughts to enter their heads could lead to unthinking support for a concept of warfare even the military rejects as primitive and unworthy -- I personally doubt that their warmongering fervor would survive past the next commercial break.

I'm sure all the dead soldiers are really concerned with whether posters on Fark are calling them "hero" or not.