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(Miami Herald)   Florida saved 61 children from death by abuse and neglect.... by narrowing its definitions of abuse and neglect   (miamiherald.com) divider line 37
    More: Florida, statistical significance, negligence, child abuses  
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5420 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 May 2012 at 4:16 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-27 02:40:52 AM  
A Jacksonville doctor who heads a local death review team blasted the new guidelines in a detailed, six-page 2010 memo, calling them "fatally flawed."

*rimshot*
 
2012-05-27 04:08:00 AM  
Ehhh... kids are fast, curious, and sneaky. If one gets out and drowns in the family pool, it's not always neglect. Similarly, kids rarely die in a shared family bed situation. If mom or dad is toasted and rolls over on the kid, yes, count it... but more kids die in their cribs every year than die in beds with their parents.

Ruling that these two types of death are *always* neglect or abuse cases is overkill.
 
2012-05-27 04:17:03 AM  
Not as bad as Syria, though.
 
2012-05-27 04:20:48 AM  

RancidSorbet: Similarly, kids rarely die in a shared family bed situation.


But they are more likely to forget the safe word.
 
2012-05-27 04:21:40 AM  
So let's go from an overly-broad definition (ALL drownings and overlaying deaths are child abuse/neglect) to an overly-narrow one (NO deaths by drowning or overlaying are abuse or neglect)! That should solve everything!

Yay Florida!
 
2012-05-27 04:24:05 AM  

RancidSorbet: Ehhh... kids are fast, curious, and sneaky. If one gets out and drowns in the family pool, it's not always neglect.


This.

There's plenty of times when children get themselves into a fatal situation and just manage to survive by pure dumb luck with simple acts like walking or riding a tricycle.

Hell, you've probably almost died a dozen times today yourself.

Sometimes, kids die. Get over it and realize that "Everything that can be done." isn't always enough. No need to add insult to injury by prosecuting people who've just been visited by freak tragedy.
 
2012-05-27 04:29:02 AM  
McIntosh, the Jacksonville doctor, took particular issue with Perlman's claim that investigators must find "intent" to leave a child at risk when a child drowns or is suffocated.

It only counts if the neglect is intentional. If the neglect is simply neglectful, then it wasn't neglect.

/neglect
 
2012-05-27 04:38:31 AM  
Well changing the rules is one way to avoid being classed as third world.
 
2012-05-27 04:48:26 AM  

RancidSorbet: Ehhh... kids are fast, curious, and sneaky. If one gets out and drowns in the family pool, it's not always neglect. Similarly, kids rarely die in a shared family bed situation. If mom or dad is toasted and rolls over on the kid, yes, count it... but more kids die in their cribs every year than die in beds with their parents.

Ruling that these two types of death are *always* neglect or abuse cases is overkill.


This.
Automatically ruling all of these types of death either way, always neglect or never neglect, is just being to lazy to actually investigate. I wonder if a kid fell down the stairs if that would have also been always neglect.
 
2012-05-27 05:49:01 AM  
Like most states, Florida has a problem with child protection because they spend most of their time investigating why some parent slapped thier child's hand in the grocery store....while doing nothing as other children are being routinely beaten.
 
2012-05-27 06:04:44 AM  
Why not? It's how all the major cities in the US have changed their murder rates.
 
2012-05-27 06:05:49 AM  

goatleggedfellow: McIntosh, the Jacksonville doctor, took particular issue with Perlman's claim that investigators must find "intent" to leave a child at risk when a child drowns or is suffocated.

It only counts if the neglect is intentional. If the neglect is simply neglectful, then it wasn't neglect.

/neglect


One notices that you have neglected the perfectly cromulent adjective, negligent, a well as the noun, negligence. You shouldn't neglect negligence in favor of neglect. The latter denotes negligence with respect to its object, and the former neglect with respect to its subject -- hence neglected things and people are properly said to be suffering from neglect, not negligence, while those who neglect their duties are properly said to be guilty of negligence, not neglectfulness.

I hope this clears things up.
 
2012-05-27 06:17:02 AM  

Gyrfalcon: So let's go from an overly-broad definition (ALL drownings and overlaying deaths are child abuse/neglect) to an overly-narrow one (NO deaths by drowning or overlaying are abuse or neglect)! That should solve everything!


Just when I was starting to wonder why Florida has a tag but Arizona doesn't.

Wouldn't the sane (and therefore non-Floridian) option be to investigate each death and then decide which resulted from abuse/neglect and which were tragic accidents?
 
2012-05-27 06:18:56 AM  
Well don't that beat all!
 
2012-05-27 06:45:32 AM  

RancidSorbet: Ehhh... kids are fast, curious, and sneaky. If one gets out and drowns in the family pool, it's not always neglect.


Granted, kids are fast, curious and sneaky. Knowing that, and knowing that they are liable to drop if their fast sneaky curiosity allows them to get into the pool, what is your obligation as a parent?

"I just answered the phone, I couldn't have been on for 5 minutes ...".
"I just went to do some laundry and only had my back turned for 5 minutes."

It's been heard again and again, coupled with the door was open to let the dog out.

Weird exceptions occur, but parents do need to take far more precaution than most do.
 
2012-05-27 06:55:57 AM  

UCFRoadWarrior: Like most states, Florida has a problem with child protection because they spend most of their time investigating why some parent slapped thier child's hand in the grocery store....while doing nothing as other children are being routinely beaten.


I read this as "routinely eaten".
 
2012-05-27 07:26:02 AM  
They'll make more.
 
2012-05-27 08:28:55 AM  
We'll see a lot more "narrowing" if healthcare is nationalized. That said, raising a child in Florida is itself a definition of child endangerment.
 
2012-05-27 08:35:27 AM  
"'This proposal,' he wrote, 'assumes that a caretaker could credibly claim not to know that it was dangerous to leave a child unsupervised around a body of water.'"

i.imgur.com

First thing that came to mind. I dunno. Whatever.
 
2012-05-27 08:56:17 AM  

RancidSorbet: Ehhh... kids are fast, curious, and sneaky. If one gets out and drowns in the family pool, it's not always neglect. Similarly, kids rarely die in a shared family bed situation. If mom or dad is toasted and rolls over on the kid, yes, count it... but more kids die in their cribs every year than die in beds with their parents.

Ruling that these two types of death are *always* neglect or abuse cases is overkill.


Citation, please.

And I'd like to see the numbers expressed as a percentage of population, not raw numbers. You know...apples and tomatoes and whatnot.
 
2012-05-27 09:42:32 AM  

RCon: "'This proposal,' he wrote, 'assumes that a caretaker could credibly claim not to know that it was dangerous to leave a child unsupervised around a body of water.'"


It's damn shame that stupidity can't suppress fertility.
 
2012-05-27 09:58:02 AM  
Is it still considered neglect if the kid sticks a knife in a light socket? Cause when I grew up, that was called natural selection.
 
2012-05-27 10:09:59 AM  

RancidSorbet: Similarly, kids rarely die in a shared family bed situation. If mom or dad is toasted and rolls over on the kid, yes, count it... but more kids die in their cribs every year than die in beds with their parents.


I would also like a citation. Co-bedding is the number one risk factor for sudden infant death. I've seen several infants die from co-bedding, and I've seen zero from cribs. (And while my own personal experience may be a bias, it is a bias supported by the literature).
 
2012-05-27 10:16:50 AM  
Florida also reduced unemployment by limitting the weeks you can file claims.
 
2012-05-27 11:15:45 AM  
3.bp.blogspot.com

Still not abuse
 
2012-05-27 12:04:34 PM  

chaddsfarkprefect: We'll see a lot more "narrowing" if healthcare is nationalized.


You prefer the current system, where people go to the emergency room to get prescriptions because they can't afford to pay the copays at their doctor's office, because they need that money to buy gas and groceries? Or they don't go to the doctor or hospital at all, because they don't have any (or any more) paid time off and cannot afford to lose a day's pay for taking a day off?

And in any case, what in the Green Hell does the universal health care debate have to do with Florida's decision on what is or isn't abuse or neglect?
 
2012-05-27 12:11:30 PM  
kkinnison

2012-05-27 11:15:45 AM


Still not abuse


Returning a child to his apparently loving father rarely is
 
2012-05-27 03:57:18 PM  

ongbok: RancidSorbet: Ehhh... kids are fast, curious, and sneaky. If one gets out and drowns in the family pool, it's not always neglect. Similarly, kids rarely die in a shared family bed situation. If mom or dad is toasted and rolls over on the kid, yes, count it... but more kids die in their cribs every year than die in beds with their parents.

Ruling that these two types of death are *always* neglect or abuse cases is overkill.

This.
Automatically ruling all of these types of death either way, always neglect or never neglect, is just being to lazy to actually investigate. I wonder if a kid fell down the stairs if that would have also been always neglect.


Having an unsupervised toddler an an unsecured/unfenced pool = neglect (negligence for ShannonKW).

Having a secured, fenced pool and a Houdini of a toddler who manages to circumnavigate the safety measures = horrible accident.
 
2012-05-27 04:02:35 PM  
according to the US department of health and human services, 40% of all child fatalities are the result of child abuse/neglect by their mothers.
 
2012-05-27 05:59:40 PM  
Just like FCAT. "DUH" state wants to look good by the numbers. {insert "The Count" Image here}

It is all about the numbers and percentages.

/we changed the test, we can't change the scores, so we can change the scale.
//I regret I live here sometimes.
///Now get OFF MY LAWN
 
2012-05-27 06:15:37 PM  

NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: RancidSorbet: Ehhh... kids are fast, curious, and sneaky. If one gets out and drowns in the family pool, it's not always neglect. Similarly, kids rarely die in a shared family bed situation. If mom or dad is toasted and rolls over on the kid, yes, count it... but more kids die in their cribs every year than die in beds with their parents.

Ruling that these two types of death are *always* neglect or abuse cases is overkill.

Citation, please.

And I'd like to see the numbers expressed as a percentage of population, not raw numbers. You know...apples and tomatoes and whatnot.


I don't have a citation--but since more kids sleep in cribs than with their parents, it's a safe assumption that more kids die in their cribs than die in beds with their parents, QED.
 
2012-05-27 06:48:53 PM  

Gyrfalcon: I don't have a citation--but since more kids sleep in cribs than with their parents, it's a safe assumption that more kids die in their cribs than die in beds with their parents, QED.


Hence my insistence that it be as a percentage of population, not raw numbers.

King Something: And in any case, what in the Green Hell does the universal health care debate have to do with Florida's decision on what is or isn't abuse or neglect?


I do believe you's been trolled.
 
2012-05-28 05:05:41 AM  

romasnavandar: RancidSorbet: Similarly, kids rarely die in a shared family bed situation. If mom or dad is toasted and rolls over on the kid, yes, count it... but more kids die in their cribs every year than die in beds with their parents.

I would also like a citation. Co-bedding is the number one risk factor for sudden infant death. I've seen several infants die from co-bedding, and I've seen zero from cribs. (And while my own personal experience may be a bias, it is a bias supported by the literature).


Here's your citation.

From CDC statistics, around 60 kids die while co-sleeping with a parent. Guess how many die in cribs per year from SIDS? 2600.

Your turn. What "literature" were you referring to?

NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!:
Citation, please.

And I'd like to see the numbers expressed as a percentage of population, not raw numbers. You know...apples and tomatoes and whatnot.


I can't find the percentages I think you're looking for, because nobody seems to track how many babies co-sleep vs. how many sleep in cribs. But accidental co-sleeping deaths are invariably tied to parents who are drunk, obese, or dumb enough to use a pillow or comforter where the kid can smother. That IS neglect, but that is NOT the norm for co-sleeping.
 
2012-05-28 05:08:38 AM  
Here's another source.

FTFA:
Reduced SIDS rate: An international childcare survey by the SIDS Global Task Force shows that cultures practicing the highest co-sleeping and bed-sharing rates also experience the lowest SIDS rates. Japan is a good example. In Japan co-sleeping and breastfeeding are both deeply ingrained cultural norms and Japan has the lowest rates of SIDS related deaths in the world.
 
2012-05-28 08:26:40 AM  

NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: Gyrfalcon: I don't have a citation--but since more kids sleep in cribs than with their parents, it's a safe assumption that more kids die in their cribs than die in beds with their parents, QED.

Hence my insistence that it be as a percentage of population, not raw numbers.

King Something: And in any case, what in the Green Hell does the universal health care debate have to do with Florida's decision on what is or isn't abuse or neglect?

I do believe you's been trolled.


and that's coming from someone who doesn't know where the space bar is

NIXON YOU DO IT!! you mean

and the it is obviously legalizing pot
 
2012-05-28 10:13:44 AM  

RancidSorbet:
Here's your citation.

From CDC statistics, around 60 kids die while co-sleeping with a parent. Guess how many die in cribs per year from SIDS? 2600.

Your turn. What "literature" were you referring to?


That's not a citation. That's some guy's website (and he doesn't provide citations either). And again, raw numbers mean nothing. 60/1000 is still far worse than 2600/2,000,000. And you shouldn't just state "from statistics"... give the reference.

Also allow me to clarify something from my original post: The Risk Factors for SIDS are Prematurity>Sleeping Prone>Maternal Smoking>Cobedding. I had said cobedding is the number one risk factor, which it is not, and meant to say it was one of the biggest risk factors.

Now, as to you questions regarding the literature--
1) http://journal.nzma.org.nz/journal/122-1307/3914/-- 50% of SIDS cases occurred in a co-bedding situation.
2) http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/cpr/2010/00000006/^A/a rt00012-- bed sharing increases risk for SIDS
3) http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/hp-ps/dca-dea/stages-etapes/childhood-enfan ce_0-2/sids/pdf/pbs-ppl-eng.pdf-- this addresses both increased risk for bedsharing and the Japanese outlier that you mention.
4) http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/2/533.abstract -- addressing solely the suffocation issue.
5) http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/129/4/630 -- and some recent data supporting that while back-to-sleep had immensely helped in decreasing risk for SIDS, there are still other risk factors that can fill the void.

Hopefully all these articles will be accessible to you, at least in abstract form.
 
2012-05-28 05:50:09 PM  
Raising a child in Florida = Abuse
 
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