Aracnix: rebelyell2006: Conservatives finally admit that the PATRIOT Act was bad?

Someone didn't rtfa.

Although why do Republicans want to encourage expatriation at all?


They are only encouraging it for rich Americans. That way they have a fall-back plan if America goes the way they're hoping.

qorkfiend: On a side note, how terrible must it have been for WWI veterans to finally get home, settle down, and start a family, only to watch their sons go off to fight WWII?

At one point I looked up the number of French casualties between the two wars, it's staggering. IIRC, something like 25% of the population of the country was killed or wounded.

Frank N Stein: Frank N Stein: dookdookdook: Reality has a well known liberal bias.

What is reality? Barring the endless philosophical debates on what consists of reality, it can be safely said that reality is essentially the combination of the laws of the physical universe and our perception of those laws. Those physical laws (and our perception) are specific to us and all living things in the biological laws which govern continual existence, i.e natural selection. Seeing as how modern day liberalism (and really, societal/governments in general) seeks to mitigate those laws of natural selection in human society (social Darwinism), this comes as an affront reality as known throughout nature. Therefore, liberalism (and all forms of government) is an attempt to distort and combat the laws of nature.

There, your bumper sticker slogan has been debunked.

Hmmm. Upon rereading, that came out worse than I thought. I'm trying to just do a little philosophical thought exercise, but this paragraph can be debunked pretty easily.

For shame, me.

Wait, that wasn't supposed to be comedy? Too bad, it really was a successful satire of the insanity that goes on in the minds of modern day republicans.

Lord_Baull: Leave it to the Republicans to equate renouncing your citizenship and leaving the country with patriotism and the American Way.

The freedom to get out of a system you can no longer tolerate staying in is a core right. To the ancient Greeks, in fact, it was considered the core right: the basis on which they called themselves free.

PanicMan: qorkfiend: On a side note, how terrible must it have been for WWI veterans to finally get home, settle down, and start a family, only to watch their sons go off to fight WWII?

At one point I looked up the number of French casualties between the two wars, it's staggering. IIRC, something like 25% of the population of the country was killed or wounded.

And that 25% is overwhelmingly concentrated in young, healthy males, who would otherwise be the backbone of the economy. The major powers of Europe lost two entire generations in the early half of the 20th century. It's completely mind-boggling.

Millennium: Lord_Baull: Leave it to the Republicans to equate renouncing your citizenship and leaving the country with patriotism and the American Way.

The freedom to get out of a system you can no longer tolerate staying in is a core right. To the ancient Greeks, in fact, it was considered the core right: the basis on which they called themselves free.

Unless you are Mexican , of course.

Millennium: Lord_Baull: Leave it to the Republicans to equate renouncing your citizenship and leaving the country with patriotism and the American Way.

The freedom to get out of a system you can no longer tolerate staying in is a core right. To the ancient Greeks, in fact, it was considered the core right: the basis on which they called themselves free.

That's fine; just don't try to portray abandoning your country as "patriotism". It's not. It's barefaced self-interest.

Millennium: Lord_Baull: Leave it to the Republicans to equate renouncing your citizenship and leaving the country with patriotism and the American Way.

The freedom to get out of a system you can no longer tolerate staying in is a core right. To the ancient Greeks, in fact, it was considered the core right: the basis on which they called themselves free.

The ancient Greeks also thought that everyone needed to voice their opinion on what their political system did and molded a direct democratic system to ensure this happened and prevent people from leaving without first having their voice heard.

Jackson Herring: Good lord, there aren't enough dicks fires in the known universe for Grover Norquist to choke on die in. Although there's no reason we shouldn't try.

just coverin all the bases heah.

Serious Black: Millennium: Lord_Baull: Leave it to the Republicans to equate renouncing your citizenship and leaving the country with patriotism and the American Way.

The freedom to get out of a system you can no longer tolerate staying in is a core right. To the ancient Greeks, in fact, it was considered the core right: the basis on which they called themselves free.

The ancient Greeks also thought that everyone needed to voice their opinion on what their political system did and molded a direct democratic system to ensure this happened and prevent people from leaving without first having their voice heard.

That would be the Athenians, not all ancient Greeks. Other city-states did things differently. This setup -a federation of a number of different societies- is why the freedom to move was considered so important: someone who could not tolerate one social system could find another.

Millennium: Lord_Baull: Leave it to the Republicans to equate renouncing your citizenship and leaving the country with patriotism and the American Way.

The freedom to get out of a system you can no longer tolerate staying in is a core right. To the ancient Greeks, in fact, it was considered the core right: the basis on which they called themselves free.


A system republicans have cultivated for the past 30 years? That's like smearing feces on every wall in your bathroom, then exercising your "right" to use the neighbor's john from now on.
Understand, I'm not against leaving the country if you're dissatisfied. I'm against the Right's insistence that this is the best thing to do to avoid taxes.

Bloody William: Heraclitus: //You have to destroy Reality to save lt...

Both sides are bad, so vote Superboy Prime.

Geoff Johns does not need any more power.

/Both sides are actually the same higher dimensional ovum readying us for the chaos of true eternal freedom
/So vote Grant Morrison maybe

Lord_Baull: A system republicans have cultivated for the past 30 years?
And which a lot of people have put a lot of emotional investment into tearing down.

Ultimately, the freedom to leave has, for a very long time, been cherished by the Republicans and their philosophical ancestors. It's why they consistently listed inability to leave the Soviet Union as one of its key atrocities. It's the entire basis of the "love it or leave it" mentality. It's also key to their position on states' rights: avoiding legal monoculture makes it possible for people to do this within the same country. Opposing the Ex-PATRIOT act may seem counterintuitive, but not only is it consistent with Republican ideals, it may be the most internally-consistent thing the Republicans have done since at least 2008, if not longer still.

Jackson Herring: PanicMan: At one point I looked up the number of French casualties between the two wars, it's staggering. IIRC, something like 25% of the population of the country was killed or wounded.

Ah yes, the cowardly surrendering French, am I right?

I know! How dare they die when attacked with mustard gas and artillery! What a bunch of pussys!

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Grove, my man, if you wish to emigrate, we'll give you an exception.

I hear Somalia has low, LOW taxes.

Bloody William: No, the New Deal happened, then the Depression. If it wasn't for FDR Federal Reserve , it would have lasted a weekend.

Ask Ben Bernanke. He'll tell you what happened.

Link

It was in large part to improve the management of banking panics that the Federal Reserve was created in 1913. However, as Friedman and Schwartz discuss in some detail, in the early 1930s the Federal Reserve did not serve that function. The problem within the Fed was largely doctrinal: Fed officials appeared to subscribe to Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon's infamous 'liquidationist' thesis, that weeding out "weak" banks was a harsh but necessary prerequisite to the recovery of the banking system. Moreover, most of the failing banks were small banks (as opposed to what we would now call money-center banks) and not members of the Federal Reserve System. Thus the Fed saw no particular need to try to stem the panics. At the same time, the large banks--which would have intervened before the founding of the Fed--felt that protecting their smaller brethren was no longer their responsibility. Indeed, since the large banks felt confident that the Fed would protect them if necessary, the weeding out of small competitors was a positive good, from their point of view.
...
Thus, as I have always tried to make clear, my argument for nonmonetary influences of bank failures is simply an embellishment of the Friedman-Schwartz story; it in no way contradicts the basic logic of their analysis.
...
Let me end my talk by abusing slightly my status as an official representative of the Federal Reserve. I would like to say to Milton and Anna: Regarding the Great Depression. You're right, we did it. We're very sorry. But thanks to you, we won't do it again.

Millennium: Lord_Baull: A system republicans have cultivated for the past 30 years?
And which a lot of people have put a lot of emotional investment into tearing down.

Ultimately, the freedom to leave has, for a very long time, been cherished by the Republicans and their philosophical ancestors. It's why they consistently listed inability to leave the Soviet Union as one of its key atrocities. It's the entire basis of the "love it or leave it" mentality. It's also key to their position on states' rights: avoiding legal monoculture makes it possible for people to do this within the same country. Opposing the Ex-PATRIOT act may seem counterintuitive, but not only is it consistent with Republican ideals, it may be the most internally-consistent thing the Republicans have done since at least 2008, if not longer still.

If the "Freedom to leave" is a core part of your political philosophy, wouldn't belief in the "Freedom to enter" be a necessary consequence?

Jackson Herring: PanicMan: At one point I looked up the number of French casualties between the two wars, it's staggering. IIRC, something like 25% of the population of the country was killed or wounded.

Ah yes, the cowardly surrendering French, am I right?

Eh, I don't blame the French for surrendering when German tanks were rolling through Paris.

French military planning, on the other hand...

I just hope people realize, in the context of the Ex-Patriot Act, that there is already an exit tax under Internal Revenue Code section 877A, which requires recognition of gains by various rich folks when they renounce citizenship or residence. Eduardo Saverin already faces a very significant tax bill for this reason. What the new law would add, if an improper tax avoidance purpose is found, is (1) a tax on gain on future investment gains, and (2) a bar from re-entry into the country. The second aspect, to me, sounds spiteful and unnecessary. On the first apsect, it's hard to say how much revenue it would rais from Saverin himself; maybe zero if the stock doesn't go up. (Needless to say, Saverin himself isn't expecting that; he's doing this for a reason; but we don't know how things will go.) Maybe it will raise a little more here and there from others.

People seem to have this impression that under current law, there are multimillionaires and billionaires who get to move to Bermuda and never pay a dime of taxes again. Ain't true.

Millennium: Serious Black: Millennium: Lord_Baull: Leave it to the Republicans to equate renouncing your citizenship and leaving the country with patriotism and the American Way.

The freedom to get out of a system you can no longer tolerate staying in is a core right. To the ancient Greeks, in fact, it was considered the core right: the basis on which they called themselves free.

The ancient Greeks also thought that everyone needed to voice their opinion on what their political system did and molded a direct democratic system to ensure this happened and prevent people from leaving without first having their voice heard.

That would be the Athenians, not all ancient Greeks. Other city-states did things differently. This setup -a federation of a number of different societies- is why the freedom to move was considered so important: someone who could not tolerate one social system could find another.

Pretty much every Greek city-state that didn't use a complete form of direct democracy randomly drew a large number of people from the citizenry to serve as the democratic decision-making body. It's still a pretty clear form of direct democracy.

Just what sort of power does Grover Norquist hold over these republicans? He's not in any elected or even appointed government office. He's not even a stinking rich super billionaire.

And BTW Grover? Either go the rest of the way and grow a full beard or shave that sh*t off! It looks like you've glued pubes onto your face!

Jackson Herring: PanicMan: At one point I looked up the number of French casualties between the two wars, it's staggering. IIRC, something like 25% of the population of the country was killed or wounded.

Ah yes, the cowardly surrendering French, am I right?

You can white knight for France all you want, but 23 million Russian died in WWII. Therefore, Russia better.

So some people say "If you don't like it why don't you just leave?" (ie love it or leave it, a very progressive idea indeed).

Now some people are saying "Fine. I'll leave and renounce my citizenship."

And the answer is "Well, since you're so un-patriotic, now you have to lose a percentage of your wealth on the way out."

You don't care whether they go or stay. All you want is more money for the government. For some reason, that makes you feel better. Or is it that some rich guy got his money taken by the government and that's what makes you feel better?

Super Chronic: I just hope people realize, in the context of the Ex-Patriot Act, that there is already an exit tax under Internal Revenue Code section 877A, which requires recognition of gains by various rich folks when they renounce citizenship or residence. Eduardo Saverin already faces a very significant tax bill for this reason. What the new law would add, if an improper tax avoidance purpose is found, is (1) a tax on gain on future investment gains, and (2) a bar from re-entry into the country. The second aspect, to me, sounds spiteful and unnecessary. On the first apsect, it's hard to say how much revenue it would rais from Saverin himself; maybe zero if the stock doesn't go up. (Needless to say, Saverin himself isn't expecting that; he's doing this for a reason; but we don't know how things will go.) Maybe it will raise a little more here and there from others.

People seem to have this impression that under current law, there are multimillionaires and billionaires who get to move to Bermuda and never pay a dime of taxes again. Ain't true.

I'm not disputing any of those facts. In fact, I'm pretty sure a bar on re-entry is already part of the US code if you do it for tax reasons. Like John Boehner, I'm not sure whether the bill Schumer has proposed is necessary.

jigger: Or is it that some rich guy who used all of the benefits that living in America provides to make his billions got his money taken by the government when he jumps ship as soon as he's got his and that's what makes you feel better?

Lord_Baull, I was just wondering if you, or anyone else suggesting that republicans are encouraging people to leave to avoid taxes, provide A SINGLE instance of a republican ENCOURAGING anyone to leave the country to avoid taxes. I very much doubt that you can.

Difficulty: saying someone should not be prevented from doing something does not equal encouraging it.

Frank N Stein: "Derp"

qorkfiend: jigger: Or is it that some rich guy who used all of the benefits that living in America provides to make his billions got his money taken by the government when he jumps ship as soon as he's got his and that's what makes you feel better?

Do you use Facebook? You're welcome. If not, what's your problem? The man doesn't owe you anything.

Here's the appropriate wiki article on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsfluchtsteuer

The Reichsfluchtsteuer ("Reich Flight Tax") was a capital control law implemented in order to stem capital flight from the Weimar Republic. The law was created through decree on 8 December 1931 as part of the "Fourth Decree of the Reich President on the Protection of the Economy and Finance and on the Defense of Civil Peace" ("Vierten [Not-]Verordnung des Reichspräsidenten zur Sicherung von Wirtschaft und Finanzen und zum Schutze des inneren Friedens"), as published in the Reichsgesetzblatt 1931 I, pp. 699-745. The Reichsfluchtsteuer was assessed upon departure from the individual's German domicile, provided that the individual had assets exceeding 200,000 RM or had a yearly income over 20,000 RM. The tax rate was set at 25 percent.

I think Schumer is looking for 30%. Schumer, that's a German name, right?

jigger: qorkfiend: jigger: Or is it that some rich guy who used all of the benefits that living in America provides to make his billions got his money taken by the government when he jumps ship as soon as he's got his and that's what makes you feel better?

Do you use Facebook? You're welcome. If not, what's your problem? The man doesn't owe you anything.

Here's the appropriate wiki article on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsfluchtsteuer

The Reichsfluchtsteuer ("Reich Flight Tax") was a capital control law implemented in order to stem capital flight from the Weimar Republic. The law was created through decree on 8 December 1931 as part of the "Fourth Decree of the Reich President on the Protection of the Economy and Finance and on the Defense of Civil Peace" ("Vierten [Not-]Verordnung des Reichspräsidenten zur Sicherung von Wirtschaft und Finanzen und zum Schutze des inneren Friedens"), as published in the Reichsgesetzblatt 1931 I, pp. 699-745. The Reichsfluchtsteuer was assessed upon departure from the individual's German domicile, provided that the individual had assets exceeding 200,000 RM or had a yearly income over 20,000 RM. The tax rate was set at 25 percent.

I think Schumer is looking for 30%. Schumer, that's a German name, right?

Actually, it's a Jewish name. You know, the same ethnicity as the 6 million people that were brutally exterminated in the Holocaust.

Serious Black: Actually, it's a Jewish name. You know, the same ethnicity as the 6 million people that were brutally exterminated in the Holocaust.

It's German, not Hebrew.

jigger: Serious Black: Actually, it's a Jewish name. You know, the same ethnicity as the 6 million people that were brutally exterminated in the Holocaust.

It's German, not Hebrew.

Seriously? You think you know Senator Schumer's ethnicity and faith better than he does?

Serious Black: jigger: Serious Black: Actually, it's a Jewish name. You know, the same ethnicity as the 6 million people that were brutally exterminated in the Holocaust.

It's German, not Hebrew.

Seriously? You think you know Senator Schumer's ethnicity and faith better than he does?

Observe the rhetorical twist he did. You said Jewish. He said Hebrew. That shows either willful ignorance or he's just trolling. He either honestly doesn't know, or he wanted to shift the discussion away from the unfortunate implications.

Jackson Herring: uh huh

What a compelling and intelligent defense.

I'm not saying the godwining was appropriate here, but isn't there a point where comparing overbearing govt action to actions taken by the Nazis becomes apropos?

Do we really have to wait until people are being held and executed in camps before we say "wait a minute, this is a bad road we're heading down."?

And really, if you have to pay to leave (or at least prove some govt-approved reason for leaving), aren't we all already in a camp, property of the federal govt? And if the executive branch can order your execution without trial, aren't we all already on death row?

The republicans are just mad that they aren't behind the trigger.

Bloody William: Serious Black: jigger: Serious Black: Actually, it's a Jewish name. You know, the same ethnicity as the 6 million people that were brutally exterminated in the Holocaust.

It's German, not Hebrew.

Seriously? You think you know Senator Schumer's ethnicity and faith better than he does?

Observe the rhetorical twist he did. You said Jewish. He said Hebrew. That shows either willful ignorance or he's just trolling. He either honestly doesn't know, or he wanted to shift the discussion away from the unfortunate implications.

Oh, I know he's a shameless conservative trollbag flamer. I've already tagged him as such. I just like publicly shaming dumbasses.

Serious Black: Bloody William: Serious Black: jigger: Serious Black: Actually, it's a Jewish name. You know, the same ethnicity as the 6 million people that were brutally exterminated in the Holocaust.

It's German, not Hebrew.

Seriously? You think you know Senator Schumer's ethnicity and faith better than he does?

Observe the rhetorical twist he did. You said Jewish. He said Hebrew. That shows either willful ignorance or he's just trolling. He either honestly doesn't know, or he wanted to shift the discussion away from the unfortunate implications.

Oh, I know he's a shameless conservative trollbag flamer. I've already tagged him as such. I just like publicly shaming dumbasses.

I thought that's what I was doing.

iawai: I'm not saying the godwining was appropriate here, but isn't there a point where comparing overbearing govt action to actions taken by the Nazis becomes apropos?

At some point, yes. That point is very, very far from where Grover farking Norquist was drawing it about the suffering of the poor, poor billionaires who want to take advantage of this country's opportunities and treasure and then deny it the revenue it deserves under the law by leaving.

Bloody William: Observe the rhetorical twist he did. You said Jewish. He said Hebrew. That shows either willful ignorance or he's just trolling. He either honestly doesn't know, or he wanted to shift the discussion away from the unfortunate implications.

Schumer is a German name. But, I guess if you don't support his Reichsfluchtsteuer, you must be for the Holocaust.

sweetmelissa31: Jackson Herring: PanicMan: At one point I looked up the number of French casualties between the two wars, it's staggering. IIRC, something like 25% of the population of the country was killed or wounded.

Ah yes, the cowardly surrendering French, am I right?

You can white knight for France all you want, but 23 million Russian died in WWII. Therefore, Russia better.

Don't forget Poland. They win the award for "highest percentage of population killed during WWII" at ~16.5%. Invaded by both sides. Ouch.

(French deaths during WWII were 1.35% of the population and the USSR almost hit 14%)

Bloody William: Serious Black: jigger: Serious Black: Actually, it's a Jewish name. You know, the same ethnicity as the 6 million people that were brutally exterminated in the Holocaust.

It's German, not Hebrew.

Seriously? You think you know Senator Schumer's ethnicity and faith better than he does?

Observe the rhetorical twist he did. You said Jewish. He said Hebrew. That shows either willful ignorance or he's just trolling. He either honestly doesn't know, or he wanted to shift the discussion away from the unfortunate implications.


To be fair, this is the guy that said if you don't like corporations giving money to SuperPACs, you can just take your investment elsewhere, but offered no advice on how you would find out which corporations are doing it, since there's no legal requirement to divulge that information.

jigger: Bloody William: Observe the rhetorical twist he did. You said Jewish. He said Hebrew. That shows either willful ignorance or he's just trolling. He either honestly doesn't know, or he wanted to shift the discussion away from the unfortunate implications.

Schumer is a German name. But, I guess if you don't support his Reichsfluchtsteuer, you must be for the Holocaust.

My mother's maiden name is Irish. Does that mean she drinks twenty gallons of beer every day? Or did she suddenly start eating nothing but sauerkraut when she got married and took my dad's Polish last name?

Remember when conservatives pooped their Pampers when Superman renounced his US citizenship?

Jackson Herring: Shoot, you win. Changing my name to Джаред and I just made an appointment to get fitted for a full Cossack outfit.

С Днем Рождения меня!

FuturePastNow: Don't forget Poland. They win the award for "highest percentage of population killed during WWII" at ~16.5%. Invaded by both sides. Ouch.

Actually if you break it down by Soviet Republic, 25% of Belarus was killed. And 60% of Jews. I should add that I am a Belarusian Jew.

alowishus: Remember when conservatives pooped their Pampers when Superman renounced his US citizenship?

Take a look at the comments from this article. Apparently it's ONLY okay to renounce your citizenship to evade tax duties.

Bloody William: At some point, yes. That point is very, very far from where Grover farking Norquist was drawing it about the suffering of the poor, poor billionaires who want to take advantage of this country's opportunities and treasure and then deny it the revenue it deserves under the law by leaving.

Spoken like a true Reichskanzler.


Lord_Baull: To be fair, this is the guy that said if you don't like corporations giving money to SuperPACs, you can just take your investment elsewhere, but offered no advice on how you would find out which corporations are doing it, since there's no legal requirement to divulge that information.

I probably left the thread long before that point. Some people have shiat to do.

But if you're so concerned about it, ask. If they won't tell you assume that they are. In fact, if it's a corporation, just assume that they're donating to SuperPACs. Don't like it? Don't invest in corporations. Raise a stink. See how many other people give a shiat as much as you and maybe a large number of people will stop investing in those particular corporations. Or if you have shiat to do, put your money to other uses. But that's so damned inconvenient, so I guess the right answer is to use threats and force.

jigger: Bloody William: At some point, yes. That point is very, very far from where Grover farking Norquist was drawing it about the suffering of the poor, poor billionaires who want to take advantage of this country's opportunities and treasure and then deny it the revenue it deserves under the law by leaving.

Spoken like a true Reichskanzler.


Lord_Baull: To be fair, this is the guy that said if you don't like corporations giving money to SuperPACs, you can just take your investment elsewhere, but offered no advice on how you would find out which corporations are doing it, since there's no legal requirement to divulge that information.

I probably left the thread long before that point. Some people have shiat to do.

But if you're so concerned about it, ask. If they won't tell you assume that they are. In fact, if it's a corporation, just assume that they're donating to SuperPACs. Don't like it? Don't invest in corporations. Raise a stink. See how many other people give a shiat as much as you and maybe a large number of people will stop investing in those particular corporations. Or if you have shiat to do, put your money to other uses. But that's so damned inconvenient, so I guess the right answer is to use threats and force.

So when are you emigrating to a freedom loving country like Singapore so that you can free yourself from the tyranny of the United States Government?

Serious Black: My mother's maiden name is Irish. Does that mean she drinks twenty gallons of beer every day? Or did she suddenly start eating nothing but sauerkraut when she got married and took my dad's Polish last name?

If she did drink twenty gallons of beer every day, then that would be very "Irish" of her wouldn't it? Calling for a "Flight Tax" is very much like 1930s German politicians.