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(Guardian)   Liverpool FC suddenly uninterested in hiring free agent coach Andre Villas-Boas, claim they can't be certain a messy midseason player revolt will make them champions   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 29
    More: Obvious, Liverpool FC, free agent  
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283 clicks; posted to Sports » on 24 May 2012 at 9:06 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-24 09:05:57 PM
I'm curious who they'll end up hiring. A lot of good coaches out there, but not all of them are available.

I still say I've never seen a team more unlucky than Liverpool this year. Never. Some of it was self-inflicted, but a lot of it was just things breaking the worst way possible. Inability to score despite a 15:1 shot ratio against the other team. More posts struck than I've ever seen. Inexplicable goal-mouth misses. I'm hoping that Pool hires some witch doctors to take the bad juju off the ball.
 
2012-05-24 09:10:24 PM
I'm afraid it's going to be Martinez or maybe Rodgers. There's a rumour flying around about Rafa going to Villa as well. If 'pool end up with Martinez and Villa with Rafa there will be chaos among the faithful. I'm almost down for it just for the entertainment value.
 
2012-05-24 09:25:16 PM

"Villas-Boas has been a frontrunner for the Anfield vacancy following Kenny Dalglish's sacking last Wednesday and hoped to hold formal talks with the principal owner, John W Henry, and the chairman, Tom Werner, as the Liverpool hierarchy settle on a shortlist for the post. "


He's probably better off, because if the team did poorly, ownership would just accuse him of being a pill-popping philanderer who couldn't manage to pick his own nose.

 
2012-05-24 09:27:32 PM
AVB would make better tactical decisions, but the success that Di Matteo had after AVB left really made a lot of people wonder what the hell he was doing if his backup can win Champions League.
 
2012-05-24 09:36:40 PM

Langston: AVB would make better tactical decisions, but the success blind stinking luck that Di Matteo had after AVB left really made a lot of people wonder what the hell he was doing if his backup can win Champions League.


FTFY
 
2012-05-24 09:43:39 PM
Smart money's now on Martinez, he's been spending this week down in Miami getting very cozy with John Henry. Dave Whelan has basically given him his "blessing" to take the job if he wants it.
 
2012-05-24 09:44:41 PM

drewogatory: Langston: AVB would make better tactical decisions, but the success blind stinking luck that Di Matteo had after AVB left really made a lot of people wonder what the hell he was doing if his backup can win Champions League.

FTFY


Winning a few games I can chalk up to luck, but beating Barca, Liverpool, and then Bayern in the course of a month impresses the hell out of me.
 
2012-05-24 09:46:54 PM

ADubs86: Smart money's now on Martinez, he's been spending this week down in Miami getting very cozy with John Henry. Dave Whelan has basically given him his "blessing" to take the job if he wants it.


What about van Gaal? I thought he hadn't even interviewed yet, but they were interested in talking with him.
 
2012-05-24 10:00:30 PM

Langston: What about van Gaal? I thought he hadn't even interviewed yet, but they were interested in talking with him.


FSG are dead set on hiring a Director of Football (why no one seems to know, look at the stellar job the last guy in that role did) and van Gaal wants none of it. He wants to be THE Manager without someone else telling him who he's buying. If FSG goes in to talks with him and they bring up the DoF partnership, he's basically said in the media that he's going to tell them to get bent.
 
2012-05-24 10:06:25 PM

ADubs86: Langston: What about van Gaal? I thought he hadn't even interviewed yet, but they were interested in talking with him.

FSG are dead set on hiring a Director of Football (why no one seems to know, look at the stellar job the last guy in that role did) and van Gaal wants none of it. He wants to be THE Manager without someone else telling him who he's buying. If FSG goes in to talks with him and they bring up the DoF partnership, he's basically said in the media that he's going to tell them to get bent.


I'm starting to think FSG really,really has no idea how to run a football club. It would have been nice to have a structure in place to buy some players before the Euros completely distort the transfer market and they end up over paying again on players are likely to end up injured and spending a good portion of next season sitting.
 
2012-05-24 10:11:10 PM

drewogatory: I'm starting to think FSG really,really has no idea how to run a football club. It would have been nice to have a structure in place to buy some players before the Euros completely distort the transfer market and they end up over paying again on players are likely to end up injured and spending a good portion of next season sitting.


One thing they seem to have a good eye for is making something turn a profit. They turned around the Red Sox and figured they could just do the same thing here, I bet. Hence all of the wage bill cutting they've done since they took over. The only reason they didn't hike the ticket prices this year is because the fans would just about revolt due to the poor performance on the pitch.

Even still, FSG's better than Hicks & Gillette. So they've got that going for them. Which is nice.
 
2012-05-24 10:19:04 PM
Well, they won't be making any money if they let the team get relegated. Next season will be a disaster without bringing in quite a few players. The squad is nowhere deep enough for the grind of the Europa and trying to make a run at top 4. As it stands, I'd expect to finish just about where they did this year, minus the junior cup.
 
2012-05-24 10:25:39 PM

drewogatory: Well, they won't be making any money if they let the team get relegated. Next season will be a disaster without bringing in quite a few players. The squad is nowhere deep enough for the grind of the Europa and trying to make a run at top 4. As it stands, I'd expect to finish just about where they did this year, minus the junior cup.


I hear ya. When I first heard the news van Gaal was even interested, I though FSG should hand him whatever money he asked for and give him near infinite leeway as far as running the club went. The fact that he's reticent about taking the job because of the way it might be run has me very wary as to their intentions. Maybe that's their deal: just stay up to rake in the TV money but gut the rest of the club to make maximum profit.

My brain hurts, I'm using football logic to try and understand cutthroat business logic.
 
2012-05-24 11:21:37 PM

ADubs86: Smart money's now on Martinez, he's been spending this week down in Miami getting very cozy with John Henry. Dave Whelan has basically given him his "blessing" to take the job if he wants it.


The thing with that is Whelan said last week that Liverpool didn't know what they were doing. And in a way, he's right. Henry and Co. need to pick a manager to pick the players, pick a guy who's sole job is to negotiate the contracts and then get out of the way.
 
2012-05-25 03:11:58 AM

Langston: drewogatory: Langston: AVB would make better tactical decisions, but the success blind stinking luck that Di Matteo had after AVB left really made a lot of people wonder what the hell he was doing if his backup can win Champions League.

FTFY

Winning a few games I can chalk up to luck, but beating Barca, Liverpool, and then Bayern in the course of a month impresses the hell out of me.


It's impressive, but he used the same boring tactic against Barca and Bayern. Any coach could have parked the bus like that, it doesn't take a tactical genius. I also wouldn't call beating Liverpool this season a huge triumph.

Chelsea would still be stupid to fire him.
 
2012-05-25 08:27:36 AM
It's a soccer thing.

Who cares.

/World's Most Boring "Sport"TM
 
2012-05-25 09:07:24 AM

KaisertheCoyote: Langston: drewogatory: Langston: AVB would make better tactical decisions, but the success blind stinking luck that Di Matteo had after AVB left really made a lot of people wonder what the hell he was doing if his backup can win Champions League.

FTFY

Winning a few games I can chalk up to luck, but beating Barca, Liverpool, and then Bayern in the course of a month impresses the hell out of me.

It's impressive, but he used the same boring tactic against Barca and Bayern. Any coach could have parked the bus like that, it doesn't take a tactical genius. I also wouldn't call beating Liverpool this season a huge triumph.

Chelsea would still be stupid to fire him.


If any coach could do it, why don't they? Do you really think that coaches are more concerned with avoiding "boring tactic" than with winning the Champion's League?
 
2012-05-25 09:17:03 AM

drewogatory: I'm afraid it's going to be Martinez or maybe Rodgers. There's a rumour flying around about Rafa going to Villa as well. If 'pool end up with Martinez and Villa with Rafa there will be chaos among the faithful. I'm almost down for it just for the entertainment value.


Rodgers declined to even meet with FSG. Understandable really, it's fairly well known they had a list of about 12 people they wanted to speak to before making an appointment. If you're doing a good and well appreciated job at your current stable club, why would you risk alienating your fans for a 12-1 shot at stabilizing a dysfunctional club like Liverpool?

Even if you beat the odds and got the job, there's a good chance you'd be hounded out in the same way Hodgson was.

Whoever gets the job is going to have a very difficult job - FSG seem unwilling to go on another spending spree after seeing KKK waste £100m, so they need to sell before they buy. But saleable players are in pretty short supply and on massive, CL-level wages which they will not want to see reduced. Of the 1st team, I can only really see Suarez, Reina, Skrtel (sp?) and maybe Glen Johnson being attractive to clubs who could afford to match their current deals.

Without CL football their current business model doesn't work. They can either gamble another £100m or so to try to get back there, or clear out the dead wood and try to rebuild slowly spending the next 3-5 years mid-table. The fans simply won't accept the latter (Exhibit A (pops)), but I don't think FSG are prepared to take on more debt either.

Stick or twist? neither option is very attractive is it?

Not that any of this causes me a even a scintilla of a particle of a fraction of an iota of sadness.

/Evertonian
//1878 - The Originals
 
2012-05-25 09:26:29 AM

james1878: drewogatory: I'm afraid it's going to be Martinez or maybe Rodgers. There's a rumour flying around about Rafa going to Villa as well. If 'pool end up with Martinez and Villa with Rafa there will be chaos among the faithful. I'm almost down for it just for the entertainment value.

Rodgers declined to even meet with FSG. Understandable really, it's fairly well known they had a list of about 12 people they wanted to speak to before making an appointment. If you're doing a good and well appreciated job at your current stable club, why would you risk alienating your fans for a 12-1 shot at stabilizing a dysfunctional club like Liverpool?

Even if you beat the odds and got the job, there's a good chance you'd be hounded out in the same way Hodgson was.

Whoever gets the job is going to have a very difficult job - FSG seem unwilling to go on another spending spree after seeing KKK waste £100m, so they need to sell before they buy. But saleable players are in pretty short supply and on massive, CL-level wages which they will not want to see reduced. Of the 1st team, I can only really see Suarez, Reina, Skrtel (sp?) and maybe Glen Johnson being attractive to clubs who could afford to match their current deals.

Without CL football their current business model doesn't work. They can either gamble another £100m or so to try to get back there, or clear out the dead wood and try to rebuild slowly spending the next 3-5 years mid-table. The fans simply won't accept the latter (Exhibit A (pops)), but I don't think FSG are prepared to take on more debt either.

Stick or twist? neither option is very attractive is it?

Not that any of this causes me a even a scintilla of a particle of a fraction of an iota of sadness.

/Evertonian
//1878 - The Originals


I think they are putting all their eggs into the FFP actually being enforced basket, somehow forgetting that City will just go and sign some preposterous rights deal with various family members. I don't think they really grasp that they will need to spend hundreds of millions to move from midtable back to top 4. I think the Arsenal model gives them some false hopes, but Arsenal's methods only seem to work at Arsenal.
 
2012-05-25 09:42:20 AM

meanmutton: If any coach could do it, why don't they? Do you really think that coaches are more concerned with avoiding "boring tactic" than with winning the Champion's League?


Pretty much every coach does it when they're faced with a more talented team. Unfortunatly it works often enough to keep the tactic alive.

It's one of the most annoying things about soccer for me. The rules make it too easy for an unskilled team to clog the field with bodies and keep close to a good team. Then they pray for one lucky rush or a corner to score a goal and steal a win.
 
2012-05-25 10:02:19 AM

drewogatory:

I think they are putting all their eggs into the FFP actually being enforced basket, somehow forgetting that City will just go and sign some preposterous rights deal with various family members. I don't think they really grasp that they will need to spend hundreds of millions to move from midtable back to top 4. I think the Arsenal model gives them some false hopes, but Arsenal's methods only seem to work at Arsenal.


Assuming everyone plays by the FFP rules (stop laughing at the back!), United, City, Chelsea and Arsenal (and to a lesser extent Spurs) would still have an advantage over Liverpool in terms of match day income due to their capacity/location (all have higher capacities except Spurs who charge much higher ticket prices being in London). The first 4 also have the CL money to help them stay out ahead of Liverpool. Liverpool have an advantage over Spurs and (for now) City in the size of their national and worldwide fan base, but unless the TV rights are de-collectivised I don't think that's going to be enough of a prop. Especially if they endure another few years of mediocrity.

Arsenal's model is: "let Arsene Wenger manage every facet of the club" (though it will be interesting to see how he gets on in the next few years without Pat Rice*). What they've done really well is capitalise on his reign by building the Emirates so they are in a position to support him now and future managers after he leaves.

It's sad that neither Everton or Liverpool invested significantly in their stadium when the opportunity was there ('90s). Now we're both in a situation where just about every penny we get in has to go on the field just to maintain our respective league positions (and consequent income, which goes back on the field, etc). As Liverpool have shown twice now (once under Hicks & Gillette and now again under FSG), a few wrong moves in the transfer market can leave you in a very perilous position.

What really galls is that with half the money either H&G gave Rafa, or FSG gave Kenny, they could have developed Goodison and still had the other half for Moyes to spend. And let's face it, pounds per point Moyes has been consistently the best manager over the last decade. With a transfer pot and a bigger stadium to support better wages he'd be a much safer bet for getting into the CL than any of the managers Liverpool could attract now.

* People forget that as temporary manager Rice had Arsenal top (I think, may have been second) after the first few months of "Arsene's" first title winning season. Wenger had to work out his contract in Japan and arrived at a club already challenging. Also, managing is itself a team game. Wenger has lost a key member of his team - can he compensate?
 
2012-05-25 10:39:30 AM
It's sad that neither Everton or Liverpool invested significantly in their stadium when the opportunity was there ('90s).

How do you feel about groundshare? Or God forbid (looks around nervously) Liverpool "United"? (I feel dirty for even typing it...)
 
2012-05-25 11:01:56 AM

drewogatory: It's sad that neither Everton or Liverpool invested significantly in their stadium when the opportunity was there ('90s).

How do you feel about groundshare? Or God forbid (looks around nervously) Liverpool "United"? (I feel dirty for even typing it...)


Wouldn't work. Firstly, we have different needs - Liverpool would want a minimum of 50k capacity and could reasonably consider up to 60k. We would need to start with 45k (in order not to leave 000s of empty seats and fark the atmosphere/look shiat on TV) and build in the option to expand as needed. Secondly, a sizable portion of both fan bases would be militantly against it...and when scousers get militant you know about it. Third, the finances would be lopsided, so either Liverpool would be subsidising Everton (unacceptable to kopites) or Everton would be paying partial rent to Liverpool (and thus subbing them - equally unacceptable to blue noses)..

Logic aside, I count myself in the "anti" camp anyway. there'd have to be an overwhelmingly positive business case before I'd favour it.

On the other hand, The Football Quarter is a cracking idea which:

1) Has the backing of large portions of fans from both sides (and plenty more would back it if the clubs themselves did).
2) Would benefit both clubs without favouring one over the other.
3) Is flexible enough to allow Liverpool to either redevelop Anfield or build from scratch in Stanley Park
4) Has significant ancillary benefits to the city on non-match days and so should be supported by the council.

The most successful city in English football and the proximity of the two grounds are unique selling points, and with Liverpool being one of the most visited English cities outside London tourist attractions are sound financial bets. Both city universities (plus Hope and Edge Hill) are looking to expand and both have sports science and other sports related courses (plus sports teaching at JMU, Hope and Edge Hill) which could benefit from the link up.

Finally, the north end is about the only part of the city which hasn't seen any significant investment since the riots in '81. Neglected is not the word - 5 of the 10 poorest parishes in the UK are in Liverpool, and Everton tops the list.

Oh, and wash your mouth out eh?
 
2012-05-25 11:02:40 AM

meanmutton: KaisertheCoyote: Langston: drewogatory: Langston: AVB would make better tactical decisions, but the success blind stinking luck that Di Matteo had after AVB left really made a lot of people wonder what the hell he was doing if his backup can win Champions League.

FTFY

Winning a few games I can chalk up to luck, but beating Barca, Liverpool, and then Bayern in the course of a month impresses the hell out of me.

It's impressive, but he used the same boring tactic against Barca and Bayern. Any coach could have parked the bus like that, it doesn't take a tactical genius. I also wouldn't call beating Liverpool this season a huge triumph.

Chelsea would still be stupid to fire him.

If any coach could do it, why don't they? Do you really think that coaches are more concerned with avoiding "boring tactic" than with winning the Champion's League?


Lots of teams do it. I watch mostly Bundesliga, but I try and keep up with La Liga whenever I can. Most teams used this tactic against Barcelona, because it works.

Though some coaches hate it. You would never, ever see Bielsa or Guaridola do it because it's just not their style. I've never seen Bayern or United pull it off either. But lots of "smaller" clubs pull it off all the time.

What bugs me is when teams who probably don't need to still do it. I don't think Chelsea would have won had they not used this tactic, but there were moments when they played a much more attacking style (counter attacking and parking the bus are NOT the same thing) and the game was at least exciting to watch then.
 
2012-05-25 11:37:12 AM

drewogatory: It's sad that neither Everton or Liverpool invested significantly in their stadium when the opportunity was there ('90s).

How do you feel about groundshare? Or God forbid (looks around nervously) Liverpool "United"? (I feel dirty for even typing it...)


The two clubs merging will never happen. But I don't totally understand why they wouldn't consider a groundshare. I mean, it works in Milan for Inter and AC Milan and those are two of the biggest clubs in the sport, historically.

And if things don't work after a while, Everton can spend time upgrading Goodison and move back in after a few years.
 
2012-05-25 12:32:11 PM

desertgeek: The two clubs merging will never happen.


Agreed, that's a given. For an American comparison, ask if the Yankees and Mets would ever merge.

desertgeek: But I don't totally understand why they wouldn't consider a groundshare. I mean, it works in Milan for Inter and AC Milan and those are two of the biggest clubs in the sport, historically.And if things don't work after a while, Everton can spend time upgrading Goodison and move back in after a few years.


Inter and AC are on a more equal level both in terms of success and fan base. While I'd naturally argue that Everton as a team are the equal of Liverpool at the moment and that historically we've enjoyed comparable success domestically, Liverpool's dominance in the late 70s/early 80s has given them a fan base far in excess of ours. Another factor is that that fan base will not accept their club has similar off field issues to Everton at the moment. The very fact they're courting Roberto Martinez and that he's apparently said he's going to think about their offer over the weekend tells you just how far they've fallen.

Not that I don't like Martinez and think he's a good manager (juries out on whether he'll be able to step up to Liverpool though), but even just 5 years ago could you imagine them trying (and apparently struggling) to bring in a manager who's only success is avoiding relegation with Wigan?

I don't think the majority of reds have come to terms with quite how farked they are yet. Which I predict will see them turn on FSG and Martinez/whoever at the first run of bad results/controversial player sale. That Jen Chang feller's going to have some job convincing the kop to stay with them while they rebuild.
 
2012-05-25 12:51:45 PM

james1878: desertgeek: The two clubs merging will never happen.

Agreed, that's a given. For an American comparison, ask if the Yankees and Mets would ever merge.

desertgeek: But I don't totally understand why they wouldn't consider a groundshare. I mean, it works in Milan for Inter and AC Milan and those are two of the biggest clubs in the sport, historically.And if things don't work after a while, Everton can spend time upgrading Goodison and move back in after a few years.

Inter and AC are on a more equal level both in terms of success and fan base. While I'd naturally argue that Everton as a team are the equal of Liverpool at the moment and that historically we've enjoyed comparable success domestically, Liverpool's dominance in the late 70s/early 80s has given them a fan base far in excess of ours. Another factor is that that fan base will not accept their club has similar off field issues to Everton at the moment. The very fact they're courting Roberto Martinez and that he's apparently said he's going to think about their offer over the weekend tells you just how far they've fallen.

Not that I don't like Martinez and think he's a good manager (juries out on whether he'll be able to step up to Liverpool though), but even just 5 years ago could you imagine them trying (and apparently struggling) to bring in a manager who's only success is avoiding relegation with Wigan?

I don't think the majority of reds have come to terms with quite how farked they are yet. Which I predict will see them turn on FSG and Martinez/whoever at the first run of bad results/controversial player sale. That Jen Chang feller's going to have some job convincing the kop to stay with them while they rebuild.


Well, FSG >>>>>>>> Hicks and Guillet. Of course, a pile of dog shait is better than Hicks and Guillet.

I think Henry and Co. are going to learn the hard way that the only way to build a winner in the short term is to do exactly what they did with the Red Sox- spend wisely and have a boss who can make it all work. As I said in the final month of the season, Kenny wasn't that guy because is approach was all wrong. We got massively unlucky at times too (Post!), but Kenny didn't do enough to try to turn things around there, IMO.
 
2012-05-25 01:06:43 PM

desertgeek: I think Henry and Co. are going to learn the hard way that the only way to build a winner in the short term is to do exactly what they did with the Red Sox- spend wisely and have a boss who can make it all work. As I said in the final month of the season, Kenny wasn't that guy because is approach was all wrong. We got massively unlucky at times too (Post!), but Kenny didn't do enough to try to turn things around there, IMO.


I just don't see how they're going to get the club to where they want it to be from where they are in a way which makes financcial/business sense. But then I guess that's why they're billionaire owners of major sports clubs and I'm...well I'm not a billionaire, put it that way!
 
2012-05-25 01:54:01 PM
Happy Istanbul Day!

/I'll live in the past if I wanna
 
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