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(Guardian)   UEFA tells Tottenham they should have finished in third if they wanted to play for champions of Europe next year   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 82
    More: Amusing, UEFA, Europe, Tottenham  
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1346 clicks; posted to Sports » on 24 May 2012 at 12:06 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-24 12:10:24 PM
Funny seeing Tottenham getting all bent out of shape despite the rules being a secret to no one.
 
2012-05-24 12:15:17 PM
I would much rather have seen Sp*rs lose a UCL qualifier than see Chelsea even sniff the trophy. With that being said,

goonertalk.com
 
2012-05-24 12:19:54 PM
FTA: "Uefa's current rule was introduced in 2005 when five English teams were allowed in to the Champions League after Liverpool won cheated their way to the tournament win but finished fifth in the Premier League."

FTFTA
 
2012-05-24 12:33:19 PM
As a 'pool fan, even I think the Liverpool rule is absolute horseshiat. I was farking embarassed by the whole thing. That said, I don't think the 4th place team in any league should ever qualify for CL. Some leagues shouldn't even be able to send ONE for farks sake. It's becoming a farking joke with every shiate league league in Europe clogging up the early rounds. It needs to go back to the old format.
 
2012-05-24 12:36:03 PM
Just go back to champions only get in. If you want to play in Europe, win your farking league.
 
2012-05-24 12:45:43 PM

Billy Crystal Meth Lab: I would much rather have seen Sp*rs lose a UCL qualifier than see Chelsea even sniff the trophy. With that being said,


goonertalk.com

^THIS^

/COYG!
 
2012-05-24 12:53:23 PM

SigmaAlgebra: Just go back to champions only get in. If you want to play in Europe, win your farking league.


I'd be fine with League and Cup winners qualifying, but if one team wins the double that spot should go unused (and that team getting a bye at some point) as opposed to letting in second place.
 
2012-05-24 12:56:38 PM
So the problem is that the fourth place team that won nothing is upset that they lost their spot in the Champions League to a team that won an actual championship? Bravo, soccer.
 
2012-05-24 01:04:10 PM

SigmaAlgebra: Just go back to champions only get in. If you want to play in Europe, win your farking league.


It just seems to me that if we're going to use the prior year's success to determine who gets into the league, the team that actually won the tournament should deserve to stay in.
 
2012-05-24 01:05:03 PM
Weather the rule is "fair" or not, they knew what they were getting themselves into. Third place is secure, fourth isn't, that's the chances you take.

/spurs supporter
 
2012-05-24 01:07:41 PM

Billy Crystal Meth Lab: I would much rather have seen Sp*rs lose a UCL qualifier than see Chelsea even sniff the trophy. With that being said,

[goonertalk.com image 500x466]


The trouble with Arsenal is they always try to walk it in.

/ludicrous display
 
2012-05-24 01:09:23 PM
Screw the 5pur2.

/Gooner
 
2012-05-24 01:10:53 PM

drewogatory: As a 'pool fan, even I think the Liverpool rule is absolute horseshiat. I was farking embarassed by the whole thing. That said, I don't think the 4th place team in any league should ever qualify for CL. Some leagues shouldn't even be able to send ONE for farks sake. It's becoming a farking joke with every shiate league league in Europe clogging up the early rounds. It needs to go back to the old format.


Out of curiosity, which "old format" are you referring to? I don't recall a format with limited entries for the big leagues where the champions of smaller ones were excluded....
 
2012-05-24 01:13:10 PM

meanmutton: SigmaAlgebra: Just go back to champions only get in. If you want to play in Europe, win your farking league.

It just seems to me that if we're going to use the prior year's success to determine who gets into the league, the team that actually won the tournament should deserve to stay in.


Well, they need to quit calling it a "league" when it's actually a bastardized cup. You would qualify for this "Cup" by winning either your league or your association cup, your result (if any) from last years "cup" should have no bearing IMO. If they want all the biggest clubs to compete in a "league" format then they just need to hurry up and form the damn "Super League" and let them play a regular schedule with one farking table and a balanced schedule.
 
2012-05-24 01:13:45 PM
Jews'll have to pull more strings next year
 
2012-05-24 01:16:09 PM

drewogatory: meanmutton: SigmaAlgebra: Just go back to champions only get in. If you want to play in Europe, win your farking league.

It just seems to me that if we're going to use the prior year's success to determine who gets into the league, the team that actually won the tournament should deserve to stay in.

Well, they need to quit calling it a "league" when it's actually a bastardized cup. You would qualify for this "Cup" by winning either your league or your association cup, your result (if any) from last years "cup" should have no bearing IMO. If they want all the biggest clubs to compete in a "league" format then they just need to hurry up and form the damn "Super League" and let them play a regular schedule with one farking table and a balanced schedule.


Why would winning an association cup be a better qualification than winning the prior year's champion's league?
 
2012-05-24 01:25:45 PM
The defending champs should be able to defend their crown. And they need to cut down on the riff raff, like those pathetic losers Man U, to make way for real contenders like APOEL.
 
2012-05-24 01:26:04 PM

Crewmannumber6: Billy Crystal Meth Lab: I would much rather have seen Sp*rs lose a UCL qualifier than see Chelsea even sniff the trophy. With that being said,

[goonertalk.com image 500x466]

The trouble with Arsenal is they always try to walk it in.

/ludicrous display


Hey guys! An IT Crowd reference in a soccer thread! You know what that means - TAKE A DRINK!!!
 
2012-05-24 01:26:31 PM

TheMatchHare: drewogatory: As a 'pool fan, even I think the Liverpool rule is absolute horseshiat. I was farking embarassed by the whole thing. That said, I don't think the 4th place team in any league should ever qualify for CL. Some leagues shouldn't even be able to send ONE for farks sake. It's becoming a farking joke with every shiate league league in Europe clogging up the early rounds. It needs to go back to the old format.

Out of curiosity, which "old format" are you referring to? I don't recall a format with limited entries for the big leagues where the champions of smaller ones were excluded....


The 'old format' didn't have a fark-load of teams that are now winning leagues of countries that never existed before the break-up of Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union.
 
2012-05-24 01:26:33 PM

meanmutton: drewogatory: meanmutton: SigmaAlgebra: Just go back to champions only get in. If you want to play in Europe, win your farking league.

It just seems to me that if we're going to use the prior year's success to determine who gets into the league, the team that actually won the tournament should deserve to stay in.

Well, they need to quit calling it a "league" when it's actually a bastardized cup. You would qualify for this "Cup" by winning either your league or your association cup, your result (if any) from last years "cup" should have no bearing IMO. If they want all the biggest clubs to compete in a "league" format then they just need to hurry up and form the damn "Super League" and let them play a regular schedule with one farking table and a balanced schedule.

Why would winning an association cup be a better qualification than winning the prior year's champion's league?


Because your domestic league should always be your first priority. The "Cup Winners Cup" should a reward for how well you do domestically. The format I favor is straight knockout, win your league or cup to qualify. You'd still have the weaker teams from the scrub leagues, but you'd lose most of them in the first couple of rounds and we wouldn't have to endure the utter shiate that is the majority of group stage ties. Heck, I might even be okay with the current qualifying methods if they would lose the horrible,horrible,horrible group stages and make it straight knockout.
 
2012-05-24 01:29:39 PM
The 'old format' didn't have a fark-load of teams that are now winning leagues of countries that never existed before the break-up of Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union.

Oh, and THIS. This times 1000.
 
2012-05-24 01:43:04 PM
Ok. So as an American who's trying to learn more about soccer (ahem, "football") I'm trying to understand this. I get that there's the national level, where English teams play each other, Italian teams play each other, etc. And there's the Europe-wide level, where various teams from around the Continent play each other . But I don't seem to see any rhyme or reason as to who gets into the UEFA tourney. Please, Euro Farkers, explain.
 
2012-05-24 01:50:52 PM

McManus_brothers: Ok. So as an American who's trying to learn more about soccer (ahem, "football") I'm trying to understand this. I get that there's the national level, where English teams play each other, Italian teams play each other, etc. And there's the Europe-wide level, where various teams from around the Continent play each other . But I don't seem to see any rhyme or reason as to who gets into the UEFA tourney. Please, Euro Farkers, explain.


HAhahahahaha, I'd have better luck explaining string theory to you but here goes. Very roughly, each domestic league has UEFA "ranking" or co-efficient that is determined by past performance. That co efficient determines how many slots (or potential slots) each league receives in the Champion's League. for example England or Spain will get 4 slots whereas Bosnia might only get one. To make it even more complicated, not every slot is automatic, some only qualify you to compete for a slot in the qualifying rounds.
 
2012-05-24 02:03:44 PM
poor tottenham, i feel for newcastle.
anyways, the top clubs underperformed at times.
Chelsea will dismiss Kalou and Boswinga, as Drogba departs.
 
2012-05-24 02:07:02 PM

drewogatory: stickymichael: The 'old format' didn't have a fark-load of teams that are now winning leagues of countries that never existed before the break-up of Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union.

Oh, and THIS. This times 1000.


Fair point. In the current CL format, it seems that 90% of these teams are gone by the end of August, so it doesn't particularly bother me, but i could see how their presence would drastically water down the champion's-only, knockout tournament format you've described. Hell, aside from the Eastern European teams, even the Welsh PL gets a slot now, even though better Welsh teams play in the EPL & Championship...

Unfortunately, while I agree with you in principal that winning the league should be mandatory for entrance into the CL (although I'd still include the previous year's CL winner & exclude the domestic cup winner, sending them instead to the Europa League), there's really no chance of UEFA going for it with all the money that's involved.
 
2012-05-24 02:07:58 PM
That's like giving the St. Louis Cardinals an automatic playoff spot because they won the World Series last year. It doesn't make sense.
 
2012-05-24 02:15:08 PM

McManus_brothers: Ok. So as an American who's trying to learn more about soccer (ahem, "football") I'm trying to understand this. I get that there's the national level, where English teams play each other, Italian teams play each other, etc. And there's the Europe-wide level, where various teams from around the Continent play each other . But I don't seem to see any rhyme or reason as to who gets into the UEFA tourney. Please, Euro Farkers, explain.


I'm going to explain it in a way Americans can understand: NCAA Basketball.

You have the bazillion conferences. Each conference has a regular season and a tournament. This is like European Football where they have the same (although the tournament goes on during the season instead of after it).

At the end of the year, the NCAA holds a 68-team tournament. The champions of all the garbage conferences get in as well as two or three or four teams for bigger conferences. Same thing happens in Europe, only you know going into the season that, say, the Big Ten gets 4 slots into the NCAA tournament based on the top 4 finishers in the Big Ten regular season. In England, for instance, they get 4 teams that get into the Champion's League.

So, for England: the League = the Big Ten; the FA Cup = the Big Ten Tournament; the Champion's League = the NCAA Tournament (although there are different priorities in Europe than in the US as to the import of each of these)
 
2012-05-24 02:16:23 PM

AssCobra77: That's like giving the St. Louis Cardinals an automatic playoff spot because they won the World Series last year. It doesn't make sense.


Thing is, every team in the Champions League gets in based on how they did last year, because the off-season in soccer is about a month and there's no time to play a tournament. Chelsea *spit, touch wood* just got in based on how they did in the Champions League instead of their domestic one.
 
2012-05-24 02:17:54 PM

AssCobra77: That's like giving the St. Louis Cardinals an automatic playoff spot because they won the World Series last year. It doesn't make sense.


Only if the MLB playoffs much longer, baseball's regular season was much shorter, the playoffs happened at the same time the regular season was going on, and qualification for this year's MLB playoffs was based on the team's performance in the prior year.

Then, yes, they'd be similar.
 
2012-05-24 02:30:36 PM
the UEFA cup is it's own federation that invites clubs to play based on their previous season's performance in their league.
 
2012-05-24 02:34:28 PM

caira: AssCobra77: That's like giving the St. Louis Cardinals an automatic playoff spot because they won the World Series last year. It doesn't make sense.

Thing is, every team in the Champions League gets in based on how they did last year, because the off-season in soccer is about a month and there's no time to play a tournament. Chelsea *spit, touch wood* just got in based on how they did in the Champions League instead of their domestic one.


Chelsea was 6th place this year but won the CL for how they performed last year. What if a team comes in 16th place and wins the CL? What if they're relegated but win the CL? Its a great accomplishment but it shouldn't allow automatic placement when they didn't play up to snuff in the league.
 
2012-05-24 02:40:18 PM
Yeah, watching Friedel's reaction to Chelsea winning was great. I feel bad for the guy though, what a career. But man, being a commentator for that game had to suck for him.
 
2012-05-24 02:40:25 PM
The thing doesn't make sense anyway since the tourney is held the year after qualifications and the teams who qualified are often made up of different players than the teams who compete.

So it's possible for the UEFA champions league winner to also have been relegate to the 2nd division of their league the same season!

I don't know why they don't condense the league seasons a bit and hold a 3 week tourney at the end of the year with only the champions of the leagues...champions of the leagues.... champion's league.... brilliant.
 
2012-05-24 02:43:07 PM

drewogatory: The 'old format' didn't have a fark-load of teams that are now winning leagues of countries that never existed before the break-up of Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union.

Oh, and THIS. This times 1000.


It doesn't matter. Red Star Belgrade wins the Serbian league and gets into the current format, or Red Star Belgrade wins the much more competitive Yugoslavian league and then goes on to win the 'old format' Champions League in '91. Steaua Bucharest beat Barcelona in 1986

Also, that Nottingham Forest v Malmö FF must have been a cracker (teams come and go. Look at Chelsea for example, where were they in the old format)
 
2012-05-24 02:44:01 PM

AssCobra77: caira: AssCobra77: That's like giving the St. Louis Cardinals an automatic playoff spot because they won the World Series last year. It doesn't make sense.

Thing is, every team in the Champions League gets in based on how they did last year, because the off-season in soccer is about a month and there's no time to play a tournament. Chelsea *spit, touch wood* just got in based on how they did in the Champions League instead of their domestic one.

Chelsea was 6th place this year but won the CL for how they performed last year. What if a team comes in 16th place and wins the CL? What if they're relegated but win the CL? Its a great accomplishment but it shouldn't allow automatic placement when they didn't play up to snuff in the league.


I don't see why a team's league performance the prior year is a better indicator of how deserving they are to play in the Champion's League than the team's Champion's League performance during the same time period.
 
2012-05-24 02:45:25 PM

AssCobra77: caira: AssCobra77: That's like giving the St. Louis Cardinals an automatic playoff spot because they won the World Series last year. It doesn't make sense.

Thing is, every team in the Champions League gets in based on how they did last year, because the off-season in soccer is about a month and there's no time to play a tournament. Chelsea *spit, touch wood* just got in based on how they did in the Champions League instead of their domestic one.

Chelsea was 6th place this year but won the CL for how they performed last year. What if a team comes in 16th place and wins the CL? What if they're relegated but win the CL? Its a great accomplishment but it shouldn't allow automatic placement when they didn't play up to snuff in the league.


No matter where they ended up in the league (even if relegated from their top flight), they're still in Europe next season.

Example: Birmingham City. Won League Cup v. Arsenal (thus qualifying for the Europa League), but relegated from the Premier League.
 
2012-05-24 02:46:15 PM

AssCobra77: What if a team comes in 16th place and wins the CL? What if they're relegated but win the CL? Its a great accomplishment but it shouldn't allow automatic placement when they didn't play up to snuff in the league.


Uefa does not regard their performance, unless it's a top 3.
All UEFA Champions have a right to defend the cup.
 
2012-05-24 02:46:48 PM

MugzyBrown: The thing doesn't make sense anyway since the tourney is held the year after qualifications and the teams who qualified are often made up of different players than the teams who compete.

So it's possible for the UEFA champions league winner to also have been relegate to the 2nd division of their league the same season!

I don't know why they don't condense the league seasons a bit and hold a 3 week tourney at the end of the year with only the champions of the leagues...champions of the leagues.... champion's league.... brilliant.


Why is the American way of doing tournaments any better, other than "America, fark Yeah"? Having a big, huge, long tournament that lasts the entire season is really cool. Europe likes it, it gets huge ratings, the players don't have a problem with it. The only issue is that there's the rare occasion when the team that wins the Champion's League just happens to not have qualified through League play.
 
2012-05-24 02:50:15 PM

TheMatchHare: Hell, aside from the Eastern European teams, even the Welsh PL gets a slot now, even though better Welsh teams play in the EPL & Championship...


Put 3 Welsh teams directly into the group stage (where they collect their money regardless of results) and give them a token "play-off" spot. See how much the league improves in 10 years with all those Euros.
 
2012-05-24 02:51:29 PM

MugzyBrown: The thing doesn't make sense anyway since the tourney is held the year after qualifications and the teams who qualified are often made up of different players than the teams who compete.

So it's possible for the UEFA champions league winner to also have been relegate to the 2nd division of their league the same season!

I don't know why they don't condense the league seasons a bit and hold a 3 week tourney at the end of the year with only the champions of the leagues...champions of the leagues.... champion's league.... brilliant.


I love that Tortonto FC will be going to the CONCACAF Champions League despite having lost every game in the first 11 weeks of the MLS season.
 
2012-05-24 02:51:33 PM
i939.photobucket.com
"Why everyone in here doesn't like Eastern Europe?"
 
2012-05-24 02:52:48 PM

meanmutton: MugzyBrown: The thing doesn't make sense anyway since the tourney is held the year after qualifications and the teams who qualified are often made up of different players than the teams who compete.

So it's possible for the UEFA champions league winner to also have been relegate to the 2nd division of their league the same season!

I don't know why they don't condense the league seasons a bit and hold a 3 week tourney at the end of the year with only the champions of the leagues...champions of the leagues.... champion's league.... brilliant.

Why is the American way of doing tournaments any better, other than "America, fark Yeah"? Having a big, huge, long tournament that lasts the entire season is really cool. Europe likes it, it gets huge ratings, the players don't have a problem with it. The only issue is that there's the rare occasion when the team that wins the Champion's League just happens to not have qualified through League play.


This.

It's a rare occasion when a team that wins either the UEFA Cup or the European Cup are not in the qualifying spots. It's even rarer when a team that wins either trophy was also relegated from their top domestic league.

Then again, people were biatching when the Giants won the Super Bowl with *only* a 9-7 record.

/Giants fan
//Arsenal Fan
///thems the rules
 
2012-05-24 02:55:08 PM

meanmutton: Why is the American way of doing tournaments any better, other than "America, fark Yeah"? Having a big, huge, long tournament that lasts the entire season is really cool. Europe likes it, it gets huge ratings, the players don't have a problem with it. The only issue is that there's the rare occasion when the team that wins the Champion's League just happens to not have qualified through League play


Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the players who qualify for a tourney should have the chance to win the tourney.
 
2012-05-24 03:01:38 PM

MugzyBrown: meanmutton: Why is the American way of doing tournaments any better, other than "America, fark Yeah"? Having a big, huge, long tournament that lasts the entire season is really cool. Europe likes it, it gets huge ratings, the players don't have a problem with it. The only issue is that there's the rare occasion when the team that wins the Champion's League just happens to not have qualified through League play

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the players who qualify for a tourney should have the chance to win the tourney.


Well, maybe if Spuds had been able to carry the form they had in January all the way through to the end of the season, this wouldn't be an argument at all. They would either be 3rd or 2nd.

Also, as another poster stated, the European Cup/Champions League was at one point strictly about the champions of all the top European domestic leagues. The format got extended when the bigger clubs (i.e. Real Madrid, Bayern Munich) weren't able to qualify AND UEFA needed the big name clubs to be part of the mix. (Think the whole CFB business with bigger conferences = bigger TV contracts)
 
2012-05-24 03:06:07 PM

drewogatory: As a 'pool fan, even I think the Liverpool rule is absolute horseshiat. I was farking embarassed by the whole thing. That said, I don't think the 4th place team in any league should ever qualify for CL. Some leagues shouldn't even be able to send ONE for farks sake. It's becoming a farking joke with every shiate league league in Europe clogging up the early rounds. It needs to go back to the old format.


Yeah, fark Cyprus, APOEL couldn't even win a game in the CL this year.

Oh, wait.
 
2012-05-24 03:07:40 PM

meanmutton: McManus_brothers: Ok. So as an American who's trying to learn more about soccer (ahem, "football") I'm trying to understand this. I get that there's the national level, where English teams play each other, Italian teams play each other, etc. And there's the Europe-wide level, where various teams from around the Continent play each other . But I don't seem to see any rhyme or reason as to who gets into the UEFA tourney. Please, Euro Farkers, explain.

I'm going to explain it in a way Americans can understand: NCAA Basketball.

You have the bazillion conferences. Each conference has a regular season and a tournament. This is like European Football where they have the same (although the tournament goes on during the season instead of after it).

At the end of the year, the NCAA holds a 68-team tournament. The champions of all the garbage conferences get in as well as two or three or four teams for bigger conferences. Same thing happens in Europe, only you know going into the season that, say, the Big Ten gets 4 slots into the NCAA tournament based on the top 4 finishers in the Big Ten regular season. In England, for instance, they get 4 teams that get into the Champion's League.

So, for England: the League = the Big Ten; the FA Cup = the Big Ten Tournament; the Champion's League = the NCAA Tournament (although there are different priorities in Europe than in the US as to the import of each of these)


drewogatory: McManus_brothers: Ok. So as an American who's trying to learn more about soccer (ahem, "football") I'm trying to understand this. I get that there's the national level, where English teams play each other, Italian teams play each other, etc. And there's the Europe-wide level, where various teams from around the Continent play each other . But I don't seem to see any rhyme or reason as to who gets into the UEFA tourney. Please, Euro Farkers, explain.

HAhahahahaha, I'd have better luck explaining string theory to you but here goes. Very roughly, each domestic league has UEFA "ranking" or co-efficient that is determined by past performance. That co efficient determines how many slots (or potential slots) each league receives in the Champion's League. for example England or Spain will get 4 slots whereas Bosnia might only get one. To make it even more complicated, not every slot is automatic, some only qualify you to compete for a slot in the qualifying rounds.


Thanks! The NCAA basketball comparison seems pretty apt. But it still seems pretty absurdly designed, which I guess makes sense, because this is Europe after all.
 
2012-05-24 03:09:21 PM

McManus_brothers: Thanks! The NCAA basketball comparison seems pretty apt. But it still seems pretty absurdly designed, which I guess makes sense, because this is Europe after all.


The NCCA March Madness is apt except for they tourney is held the following season. So all of KU's players would have graduated and the new Freshmen will play in the tourney that the graduated players busted their asses qualifying for.
 
2012-05-24 03:09:32 PM

Rwa2play: Also, as another poster stated, the European Cup/Champions League was at one point strictly about the champions of all the top European domestic leagues. The format got extended when the bigger clubs (i.e. Real Madrid, Bayern Munich) weren't able to qualify AND UEFA needed the big name clubs to be part of the mix. (Think the whole CFB business with bigger conferences = bigger TV contracts)


This is the reasoning behing the group stage format as well, basically to greatly reduce the chances of an upset. Why they prefer a large number of meaningless late group games instead of an exciting upset is a absolute mystery tho. Nothing like an expensive Euro away trip to see a dead rubber.
 
2012-05-24 03:13:31 PM

drewogatory: Why they prefer a large number of meaningless late group games instead of an exciting upset is a absolute mystery tho.


SE Asian gambling racquets. Remember Dinamo Zagreb and I think Lyon this year?
 
2012-05-24 03:16:05 PM

MugzyBrown: McManus_brothers: Thanks! The NCAA basketball comparison seems pretty apt. But it still seems pretty absurdly designed, which I guess makes sense, because this is Europe after all.

The NCCA March Madness is apt except for they tourney is held the following season. So all of KU's players would have graduated and the new Freshmen will play in the tourney that the graduated players busted their asses qualifying for.


Players on professional association football teams don't change over as quickly as college basketball players.
 
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