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(Socialist Stooge)   German police confront Occupy protesters and....take off their helmets and escort them through town?   (globalwinnipeg.com) divider line 135
    More: Spiffy, German police, escorts, Occupy movement, EU Commission, Occupy protests, business districts, objections, town  
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8428 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 May 2012 at 1:06 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-24 03:42:42 AM

Rent Party: No troubles. The company I work for employs more Europeans than Americans (what with it being a European company and all), so I spend a lot of time over there. That particular German gentleman was out of the Frankfurt office. That particular paintball session was in the Wicklow mountains outside of Dublin. Best part: A Guarda van rolls up, and four cops pop out. They have a case of beer on the front seat, and are getting ready to play.

I have pictures, somewhere. :)


Heh, sounds like it was a blast!

Father_Jack: its so weird that you can be literally 20 minutes away from a capital city and there is absolutely zero sign of humans ever having been there except for the road


Something amusing about that is that I went through the wiki "list of countries by population density" once and thought to myself "huh.....there are large swaths of some of these countries that I've been to where there are like zero people". Just from looking at the list you'd think lots of those places must just be people standing on top of each other like a Pakistani train station or something.
 
2012-05-24 03:45:53 AM

9beers: In Germany, the protesters respect the law and don't act like dicks, break shiat and causing trouble.


You might want to rethink that theory.

img.timeinc.net
 
2012-05-24 04:00:09 AM

a9735z: Father_Jack: US cops generally speaking tend to be more militant and aggressive minded individuals in general. Lots of ex military, lots of vets.

Considering we still had conscription up until this year (although lots of people did alternative civilian service), there are quite a few former military in our police. But I get what you mean with it being more prevalent in the U.S. since it's a good career choice for returning Iraq vets.

Father_Jack: Most german cops that ive met and come into contact with are waaaaay more chill; theyre a lot closer to "average civilians" than the US cops, many of whom see the world in terms of "cops and perps and nothing in between" or "good guys and bad guys".

A lot of it has to do with imprisonment policies. For instance pretty much anywhere in Germany if you get caught with say.....3-5 grams of pot, they'll either confiscate it or make you pay a fine/do a free drug counseling course. I seem to read a lot of horror stories on Fark (the accuracy of which I cannot verify) of people winding up in actual jail/prison for having joints on them. Not kilos of weed, but just 4-5 joints. German police are extremely quick to react with serious crimes though. They just generally (and I say generally bc there are obvious exceptions) leave the piddly crap (a joint or a 17 year old taking a tequila shot in a bar) alone because the paperwork is huge and there's no discernible benefit to making a mountain out of a molehill.

Father_Jack: The bereitschaftspolizei units and the BGS (federal border police) contain guys cut from the same cloth as US cops, the BGS are scary like US cops are scary (for the same reason, theyre partially militarized). But your average german cop is just an official, and to me at any rate very unthreatening.

Yea the border police are serious but a part of it is because Germany is basically a hub for a LOT of illegal transport (human trafficking, hard drugs, stolen merchandise), due to both our geographic location withing ...


im not being critical of the BGS... (really? theres no more bgs, theyre BPOL now? the things you miss living in switzerland...), rather just pointing out theyre different from regular stadtpolizisten in most cases. at least certainly was my observation living there.

i got "kontrolliert" by german cops several times in my goth era when i looked a bit... rough.... and never had any issues at all, nothing like, say, being a kid with dreads or a black kid being pulled over in white US suburbia.

also und jetzt lautet die Frage, woher kommst du denn ?

und geniess ma dein kaffee. :) ech werda au gliich eis go hola, as they say down here...
 
2012-05-24 04:08:18 AM

weasil: Occupiers act like little kids throwing fits.


THIS
 
2012-05-24 04:15:18 AM

a9735z:

Yea the border police are serious but a part of it is because Germany is basically a hub for a LOT of illegal transport (human trafficking, hard drugs, stolen merchandise), due to both our geographic location within Europe but also because of our Turkish/Eastern European gang presence. It also depends on which border they are on in terms of how big of assholes they are..


outta curiousity, which borders are more asshole-esc?
 
2012-05-24 04:16:37 AM

Father_Jack: also und jetzt lautet die Frage, woher kommst du denn ?

und geniess ma dein kaffee. :) ech werda au gliich eis go hola, as they say down here...


Baden-Württemberg. Oje jetzt fängst du mit Schweizerdeutsch schon an :-P

Danke, das du mich daran erinnert hast heute Eis beim Edeka zu kaufen.
 
2012-05-24 05:43:12 AM

BarkingUnicorn: WTF is Donald Duck doing in that photo?


.
.
Look closer and you will also see The Big Bad Wolf, the Three Little Pigs, as well as other assorted Disney Cast Members. Oh, and is that Main St. in Euro Disney they are marching down? Why yes, yes it is.
 
2012-05-24 05:44:01 AM
Since I was at ground zero the whole week of the police presence, here's my $0.02 on what happened. Firstly European protests can and will get a lot uglier than US protests although I think the black bloc group and its tactics are going worldwide. May Day protests in Germany typically have leftists and anarchists breaking windows, throwing bricks and bottles at cops, molatov cocktails etc.

The Blockutards were calling to "shut down Frankfurt", block all the entrances to banks, shut down the city center, etc. With this backdrop the City decided to go full out and brought in a massive contingent of cops. They had every imaginable asset deployed. They clearly were onto Blockupy's communcations and basically, for the first three days, surrounded any group that amounted to ten or more people and simply froze them in place. Tacticallly, it worked well and by Saturday (the official protest day) I think they had worn down many ad hoc protestors simply by being so well organized. Nonetheless they did stop several buses before they reached Frankfurt and forbid the occupents from traveling to the city. A bit of a civil rights issue one would think.


Father_Jack: Cops in europe in general are just more relaxed because theyre not as worried about people being armed and shooting them at traffic stops like they are in the US.

I would agree with regard to most Northern European cops. Southern European cops (and I would include France) will knock your azz over the head and toss you in the can at the drop of a hat. I've seen this first hand. France's dirty little secret is that Arabs can be thrown in the can for days, beaten, and then just turned loose with no charges. Spanish cops, especially in Basque areas will fark you up just for looking out of place. The Carabinieri will also crack heads any time they feel like it, especially if your skin is brown.
 
2012-05-24 06:09:15 AM
a9735z
I was once in a bar in Germany that had a lot of teenagers since a lot of them had recently graduated from "high school" (or the equivalent). Now this isn't that big of a deal since you can buy beer at 16 but some of them were getting a few tequila shots as well (liquor is only legal at 18), so some American tourists that were in there called the police.

The police come, assess the situation, see there are other adults keeping an eye on the kids consumption and basically say "better in an establishment than 'komasaufen' in a field somewhere without supervision", turn around and leave.

The look on the tourists' faces was priceless.


Though..depending on the kind of "high school equivalent" , the graduates might have been old enough even to buy liquor.
When I graduated from the "Gymnasium" (back then that still meant 13 years of school), my graduation was about three months before my 20th birthday. Most of us were 19. A handful that had to repeat a year or were abroad for a year might have been 20 already and we had another handful of "outliers" who were still 18 and maybe a month or two away from their 19th birthday.

boring story bro:
Then again, since groups for activities where you couldn't earn grades (e.g. some ball sports, band, choir etc) at our school were open to all kids from all ages who wanted to participate and the school had grades from 7 to 13, it wasn't that unusual to have had kids of varying (teen-)ages hanging out together.
For example, the mixed Volleyball group in my last year(s) was a group of girls from a grade 8 class (so ~14 years), a mixed bag of friends from two 10th grade classes (~16) and mostly us old farts from grade 12/13 (~18).
When we old farts went for our traditional Döner-Coke-and-playing-cards-evening afterwards, at some point some of the younger ones started tagging along. So if you went to that Döner place at around 9pm on that day of the week, you would have had teens of literally all (teen-)ages at two or three tables in the back..
...until the day some plain clothes cops had some stern words with the staff about "allowing gambling" (i.e. our just-for-fun card game) and him possibly not being able to make sure that nobody did something he wasn't permitted at their age (I don't think anyone of us drank alcohol, but most of the 10th graders were smokers which, like beer, is 16+ in public. Then again, there were also rumors that the police had an unrelated beef (kebab?) with the family running the shop about something they knew, but couldn't prove (using the Döner shop on the side for a bit of money laundering or evading taxes;something along those lines)
 
2012-05-24 06:33:11 AM
Father_Jack
really? theres no more bgs, theyre BPOL now? the things you miss living in switzerland...),

I think they got renamed and re-purposed when most of Eastern Europe finally joined the Schengen area - after that there weren't any German borders left that a border police could patrol; I think they're still responsible for airports.
 
2012-05-24 06:45:47 AM

The Voice of Doom: Father_Jack
really? theres no more bgs, theyre BPOL now? the things you miss living in switzerland...),

I think they got renamed and re-purposed when most of Eastern Europe finally joined the Schengen area - after that there weren't any German borders left that a border police could patrol; I think they're still responsible for airports.


ah yess....the bgs in airports.....

i remember seeing some nice german chix with nice crisp uniforms holding mp5s and wearing the long ponytails back under their caps...

i really, really wanted them to give me a good Kontrolle.
 
2012-05-24 06:46:19 AM
An Occupy tent camp in front of the European Central Bank was cleared Wednesday as a safety measure ahead of Saturday's protest. Some 340 activists left, some of them carried by police. Authorities say the camp can be re-erected late Sunday.


Police on Friday temporarily detained some 400 demonstrators during unauthorized Blockupy protests by thousands of activists after they erected barricades and staged sit-ins.


Looks like they weren't justhanging out with no helmets.
 
2012-05-24 07:03:29 AM

9beers: Enemabag Jones: OK, in the US do protesters "act like dicks and cause trouble"?

Yes

Any other questions?


Yeah; we all remember that terrible riot in downtown Manhattan that announced the birth of the Occupy movement to the world.

Oh no wait; they just sat in a farking park and did a few marches, all of which involved cops attacking non-violent protestors and uninvolved bystanders in some way. I guess 9beers is just full of shiat.
 
2012-05-24 07:16:08 AM

Weaver95: here in the US, our cops beat the snot outta protesters, arrest them, and then accuse them of being terrorists.

/land of the free and home of the brave.


All of you missing that this was a planned protest and the part where they cleared a camp they had set up. You can protest all you like but most of the OWS douchebags just seem to want to cause disruption, its like real life trolling.
 
2012-05-24 07:16:57 AM
And I guess Heron is full of shiat for only referencing one protest whilst ignoring protestor violence in Oakland, Seattle, et al.
 
2012-05-24 07:22:25 AM
We are so f'n behind the rest of the world.
 
2012-05-24 07:24:41 AM

fusillade762: You mean like these kids?



Sitting down. What dicks


This has been on fark long enough for you to portray it like that is probably just dishonesty, and stupidity, but on the off chance it is ignorance I am going to reply.

Prior to the police arriving some students were blocking sidewalks. Cops came and said they had to move or they would be arrested, they refused and were arrested. A bunch of other students then surrounded the cops and the peopel they arrested, linked arms and sat down. The cop then explained they had to move and if they didn't pepper spray would be used, they refused and were sprayed.

So this wasn't passive resistance, this wasn't them just sitting there, this was them actively blocking police in an attempt to force the release of a prisoner.
 
2012-05-24 07:40:02 AM

SoCalSurfer: 9beers: Weaver95: here in the US, our cops beat the snot outta protesters, arrest them, and then accuse them of being terrorists.

/land of the free and home of the brave.

In Germany, the protesters respect the law and don't act like dicks, break shiat and causing trouble.

Kinda this

Look at Oakland.


What happens in Oakland doesn't explain what happens anywhere else.

Besides, there are some indications that police responses to Occupy protests were organized nationally by the DHS and a White House working group, rather than the haphazard, on-the-ground responses to different situations that you suggest.
 
2012-05-24 07:45:24 AM

Heron: Besides, there are some indications that police responses to Occupy protests were organized nationally by the DHS and a White House working group, rather than the haphazard, on-the-ground responses to different situations that you suggest


While I have ahuge problem with DHS getting involved in this, I don't have a problemw ith cities across the ocoontry working together.

If police in Oakland crackdown groups across the ocoontry are going to hear about it and police should be ready for a reaction. If a bunch fo cities decide they have had enough of these groups illegally "occupying" land it makes sense to remove them at the same time, so they don't learn from how the cops did it in other places, or get a "heads up".
 
2012-05-24 07:45:50 AM
Heh, I like how people think the Polizei have never used violence on people. When they use force they would put any American cop to shame.
 
2012-05-24 07:50:34 AM

a9735z: Father_Jack: also und jetzt lautet die Frage, woher kommst du denn ?

und geniess ma dein kaffee. :) ech werda au gliich eis go hola, as they say down here...

Baden-Württemberg. Oje jetzt fängst du mit Schweizerdeutsch schon an :-P

Danke, das du mich daran erinnert hast heute Eis beim Edeka zu kaufen.


Ich spreche Deutsch nicht....
 
2012-05-24 08:02:04 AM

steamingpile: Weaver95: here in the US, our cops beat the snot outta protesters, arrest them, and then accuse them of being terrorists.

/land of the free and home of the brave.

All of you missing that this was a planned protest and the part where they cleared a camp they had set up. You can protest all you like but most of the OWS douchebags just seem to want to cause disruption, its like real life trolling.


"I'm not a troll, some of the crap I actually believe, other times I just type to push the thread over the edge,"


First, yes, yes you are a troll.

Second, protests don't work if nobody pays attention. They are SUPPOSED to be in your face demonstrations. With something as important as too much control of our government by big money (which, btw, is something that in theory both conservatives and liberals should agree with: the latter wanting government control of business than the other way around, and the former wanting a small government that wasn't run by business) you can't merely have a one day protest with a handful of people and expect anything to change.

OWS hasn't succeeded fully yet, but contrary to most people's claims that they have no message or have had no effect, they have made a difference. They've gotten the issue itself to take greater presence in the national discussion. That's a big deal, and I hope those that have the time and ability to make the sacrifice to be political active continue to do so. I'd say the same about the tea party, but I'm not sure that was ever anything more than astroturfing. I'm sure there are many who were within that movement who thought it was, or wanted it to be, more than that though. Even so, it did turn into a bit of a frankenstein, and I'm hoping the long-term effect of the tea party will also be a positive one. Even if all their candidates are horrible, they may force republicans to decide whether they want to represent their own lip service, or bring back rational discussion and compromise. Its clear that many in the republican base are sick of being told "small government" and getting the opposite from the party saying it. Its a good thing that those people got active.
 
2012-05-24 08:15:17 AM

Tat'dGreaser: Heh, I like how people think the Polizei have never used violence on people. When they use force they would put any American cop to shame.


Lived in Germany for 8 years, yeah those dudes don't fark around. They tell you to do something then its in your best interest to do it unless you want to get pummeled by a group of them. Cant say that I have experienced the same here in the states. They also seem to be quicker to draw their side arms for a show of force and or escalation of force, lol probably why they don't get farked with as much as their counterparts here.
 
2012-05-24 08:18:45 AM

Smackledorfer: Second, protests don't work if nobody pays attention. They are SUPPOSED to be in your face demonstrations. With something as important as too much control of our government by big money (which, btw, is something that in theory both conservatives and liberals should agree with: the latter wanting government control of business than the other way around, and the former wanting a small government that wasn't run by business) you can't merely have a one day protest with a handful of people and expect anything to change.


You can't force peopelt opay attention. If your protest does anything to get attention that would otherwise be illegal, calling it aprotest doesn't give you a pass for breaking the law.

You also can't illegally squat on land or block traffic and expect things to change.

That being said I support a lot of the less crazy aspects of the OWs, but the stance of many of their supporters on what they can legally do is downright absurd, and I got no rpoblem if they are tossed in jail whent hey break the law.
 
2012-05-24 08:27:56 AM
"You will be re-united with your fellow occupy protesters after a shower"

too soon?
 
2012-05-24 08:30:24 AM
To all of you who are opining "Yeah, German cops are cool amd respectful; American cops are power-hungry fascists who would have beaten the protesters' asses," I call your attention to Chicago.

The cops here in Chicago have been totally cool with the Occupy folks, the periodic immigrant rights protesters, the big anti-NATO crowds last week-end, and on and on. It's not like how it was 44 years ago - at all.
 
2012-05-24 08:31:17 AM

ongbok: This is basically what happened in Chicago during the U.N protest Friday. The people marched, when they were coming up on a busy intersection the police got ahead of them and blocked off traffic at the intersection so they could get through safely. When they stopped at the Board of Trade, the police blocked off traffic and kept everybody inline until the protestors decided to march on. Not once did the police try to stop the protest, impede it, or incite any conflict. In fact the only people that were acting like asses were the people who disagreed with the protest. They were the ones that were trying to start trouble.


Yes, for the most part the Chicago police were pretty decent during the whole NATO summit and they were quite friendly to those of us who just happen to be in the area because of work etc. as I was. There were only a few times where there clashes, and I can honestly say from watching the videos, they were not instigated by CPD nor did they remotely resemble the sort of 'police riot' that everyone was afraid of (and clearly some people where hoping for). Now are there times where I think CPD got a little baton-happy that one night where things got a bit ugly? yes, but it wasn't a full scale beat-down like what I've seen in Oakland, etc. and by-in-large they pretty much let the protesters do what they want and just stood back and made sure they didn't break anything.

Which leads me to my dilemma, I really want to support OWS, really, I do, I'm quite sympathetic to their cause as I'm a dirty liberal myself, but God damn it the NATO protesters came off like antagonistic douchehbags begging for a confrontation. Not to mention that I'm pushing the big 40 and I have friends who are CPD, etc. so I've long gotten over that irrational hatred of the police just for being police.

Seriously, what political or social statement is made by waving a donut on a fishing pole at a bunch of cops other than "I'm an idiot and would love nothing more for you to lose your cool because this is your third 16 hour shift in the last three days and do something stupid like smack me in the face with a stick, getting us both into trouble so I can go off and brag about being a victim of police brutality back to my friends'?

That being said, that particular photograph was a good one, and I wish that U.S. cops could ratchet down some of their approaches to dealing with protests and with civilians in general, and largely back of the paramilitary BS.
 
2012-05-24 08:41:06 AM

9beers: Weaver95: here in the US, our cops beat the snot outta protesters, arrest them, and then accuse them of being terrorists.

/land of the free and home of the brave.

In Germany, the protesters respect the law and don't act like dicks, break shiat and causing trouble.


Ah, but which comes first? As I remember some fat-ass pepper sprayer is still walking around in a cop uniform. It's the cops, not the people, stirring up trouble.

I would not doubt it's the police doing the damage in many cases and blaming the protestors. We are decades behind most first world countries in education and tolerance.
 
2012-05-24 08:42:47 AM
I guess the German government doesn't allow European banks to bribe their police force, unlike the US.
 
2012-05-24 08:47:07 AM

HopScotchNSoda: To all of you who are opining "Yeah, German cops are cool amd respectful; American cops are power-hungry fascists who would have beaten the protesters' asses," I call your attention to Chicago.

The cops here in Chicago have been totally cool with the Occupy folks, the periodic immigrant rights protesters, the big anti-NATO crowds last week-end, and on and on. It's not like how it was 44 years ago - at all.


To become a German cop there is a lot of training and you can't be a half-retarded psychopath. Here in America, police officers barely get any training and are often scraped off the bottom of the barrel of society.

That's why police in Germany can have so much more authority than police here in the USA and you don't fark with them.
 
2012-05-24 08:50:43 AM

Weaver95: here in the US, our cops beat the snot outta protesters, arrest them, and then accuse them of being terrorists.

/land of the free and home of the brave.


Having actually attended several protests last week in Chicago, I realized that you are not a fan of Occupy.

You are an apologist for the Black Bloc gutter punks.

Fortunately you are in the minority.

Home of the free.... deep dude, rolls eyes.
 
2012-05-24 08:53:22 AM
...and I suppose I would be remiss without mentioning that the Polizei seems to have a rule that they only hire hot females. Those ponytails aren't tactical but man they can get a fantasy going.
 
2012-05-24 08:55:29 AM

Tat'dGreaser: Heh, I like how people think the Polizei have never used violence on people. When they use force they would put any American cop to shame.


Like in this video, shot three days before this propaganda.

Frankfurt police arrested over a thousand people in the three days leading up to this march. The folks who put it together expected a low turnout. They got tens of thousands showing up, largely due to the heavy-handed police response.
 
2012-05-24 09:04:10 AM
Chascarrillo gets almost everything wrong. The cops briefly detained hundreds of people who attempted to march Weds-Fri which was not sanctioned. There were very few actual arrests. Most people let go after 20-30 minutes. The Blockupy organizers were calling 25-30K protestors but only around 10k showed up. Way below their estimates. Something about nice weather and near full employment in Germany (Why protest when you've got to be at work making good money?).
 
2012-05-24 09:04:34 AM

liam76: fusillade762: You mean like these kids?



Sitting down. What dicks

This has been on fark long enough for you to portray it like that is probably just dishonesty, and stupidity, but on the off chance it is ignorance I am going to reply.

Prior to the police arriving some students were blocking sidewalks. Cops came and said they had to move or they would be arrested, they refused and were arrested. A bunch of other students then surrounded the cops and the peopel they arrested, linked arms and sat down. The cop then explained they had to move and if they didn't pepper spray would be used, they refused and were sprayed.

So this wasn't passive resistance, this wasn't them just sitting there, this was them actively blocking police in an attempt to force the release of a prisoner.


That's what we call "civil disobedience," especially because the cops had no reason to force the sitting students to move other than "because we said so." Civil disobedience has a long and storied history in this country and is generally looked at as a positive form of activism (that is, it is not destructive and it gets your point across very well, which is obviously the case here since people are still talking about it).

But since you probably never finished 5th grade, I understand how you might not know what civil disobedience is. It's okay, I understand! I'm here to help fill that gaping void in your tiny brain.
 
2012-05-24 09:13:23 AM

Ebbelwoi: Chascarrillo gets almost everything wrong. The cops briefly detained hundreds of people who attempted to march Weds-Fri which was not sanctioned. There were very few actual arrests. Most people let go after 20-30 minutes. The Blockupy organizers were calling 25-30K protestors but only around 10k showed up. Way below their estimates. Something about nice weather and near full employment in Germany (Why protest when you've got to be at work making good money?).


The linked article says 20k-25k people in the "sanctioned" march. Yes, the earlier marches weren't "sanctioned"... which excuses the arrests how? Why do you need sanctioning from the state in order to express your opinion?

And as far as the word "arrest": "Hundreds arrested in 'Blockupy' protests in Frankfurt" (Deutsche Welle).
 
2012-05-24 09:17:38 AM

InfamousBLT: That's what we call "civil disobedience," especially because the cops had no reason to force the sitting students to move other than "because we said so." Civil disobedience has a long and storied history in this country and is generally looked at as a positive form of activism (that is, it is not destructive and it gets your point across very well, which is obviously the case here since people are still talking about it).


I understand civil disobedience, but I also understand it is a subjective call to say that was what they were doing. I understand you feel fine putting spolied brats who were blocking foot traffic on campus for a cause that was completely unrelated to foot traffic in the company of people like Rosa Parks, however I hope you will understand why I think you are a complete farking idiot for trying to put those spoiled brats in said category.


InfamousBLT: But since you probably never finished 5th grade, I understand how you might not know what civil disobedience is. It's okay, I understand! I'm here to help fill that gaping void in your tiny brain


Funny you would lecture me on civil disobedience, as you clearly don't understand it. why don't you start here. Two quick corrections depending on how you define civil disobedience it can be violent or non-violent, there is no requirement for non-destructive. And using your requirement of "gettingt he popint across" you are once agains wrong as blocking a walkway on college doesn't really shed light to the goals of OWS.
 
2012-05-24 09:17:53 AM

Enemabag Jones: 9beers,In Germany, the protesters respect the law and don't act like dicks, break shiat and causing trouble.

OK, in the US do protesters "act like dicks and cause trouble"?

/Or is it that German police do not automatically have an adversial relationship with the public interest they serve?


Little from column A, a little from column B.

Black Bloc's antics in the Battle of Seattle went a long way in ruining civil protests, and somewhere along the line (when the war on drugs became serious) police went from "peace officers" to "law enforcement".
 
2012-05-24 09:19:30 AM

chascarrillo: The linked article says 20k-25k people in the "sanctioned" march. Yes, the earlier marches weren't "sanctioned"... which excuses the arrests how? Why do you need sanctioning from the state in order to express your opinion?


So either you think you need to be able to march to express your opinion, or you are being dishonest about the "sanctioning from the state in order to express your opinion" claim. Which is it?
 
2012-05-24 09:36:22 AM

liam76: So either you think you need to be able to march to express your opinion, or you are being dishonest about the "sanctioning from the state in order to express your opinion" claim. Which is it?


The former. Public assembly is one of those things that is considered under human rights.
 
2012-05-24 09:37:53 AM

Smackledorfer: First, yes, yes you are a troll.

Second, protests don't work if nobody pays attention. They are SUPPOSED to be in your face demonstrations. With something as important as too much control of our government by big money (which, btw, is something that in theory both conservatives and liberals should agree with: the latter wanting government control of business than the other way around, and the former wanting a small government that wasn't run by business) you can't merely have a one day protest with a handful of people and expect anything to change.

OWS hasn't succeeded fully yet, but contrary to most people's claims that they have no message or have had no effect, they have made a difference. They've gotten the issue itself to take greater presence in the national discussion. That's a big deal, and I hope those that have the time and ability to make the sacrifice to be political active continue to do so. I'd say the same about the tea party, but I'm not sure that was ever anything more than astroturfing. I'm sure there are many who were within that movement who thought it was, or wanted it to be, more than that though. Even so, it did turn into a bit of a frankenstein, and I'm hoping the long-term effect of the tea party will also be a positive one. Even if all their candidates are horrible, they may force republicans to decide whether they want to represent their own lip service, or bring back rational discussion and compromise. Its clear that many in the republican base are sick of being told "small government" and getting the opposite from the party saying it. Its a good thing that those people got active.


Nope not trolling and OWS has had zero effect, well except for galvanizing the public against them. Read the comments of the poster in the thread earlier about how people were doing shiat just to piss off the cops or provoke a response, that is how the public sees the entire OWS movement, a bunch of little douches who are whining.

And I am sure all of black people who took part in the non-violent protests decades ago would like to have a word with you about all protests have to be in your face or get no attention, once you start the yelling and throwing the public shuts down to your cause, you become the problem, and opinion will be that the cops did what they had to do to get control of these idiots.

But then common sense has never been strong with OWS people, its why any message is lost.
 
2012-05-24 09:47:20 AM

chascarrillo: liam76: So either you think you need to be able to march to express your opinion, or you are being dishonest about the "sanctioning from the state in order to express your opinion" claim. Which is it?

The former. Public assembly is one of those things that is considered under human rights.


According to who? I may be biased here but as an American I respect freedom of assebly, but that isn't exactly the same thing. I generally support the public assembly as a limited right, and realistically it can never be anything more. There is a limit on "public space" and especially in a city any large "public assembly" will infringe on the "public assembly" rights of others.

Marches are an excellent of example. To say you think there is a right to public assembely on any public property means that any time any two people can get together and shut down a road by sitting on it or marching through.
 
2012-05-24 09:49:36 AM

liam76: InfamousBLT: That's what we call "civil disobedience," especially because the cops had no reason to force the sitting students to move other than "because we said so." Civil disobedience has a long and storied history in this country and is generally looked at as a positive form of activism (that is, it is not destructive and it gets your point across very well, which is obviously the case here since people are still talking about it).

I understand civil disobedience, but I also understand it is a subjective call to say that was what they were doing. I understand you feel fine putting spolied brats who were blocking foot traffic on campus for a cause that was completely unrelated to foot traffic in the company of people like Rosa Parks, however I hope you will understand why I think you are a complete farking idiot for trying to put those spoiled brats in said category.


InfamousBLT: But since you probably never finished 5th grade, I understand how you might not know what civil disobedience is. It's okay, I understand! I'm here to help fill that gaping void in your tiny brain

Funny you would lecture me on civil disobedience, as you clearly don't understand it. why don't you start here. Two quick corrections depending on how you define civil disobedience it can be violent or non-violent, there is no requirement for non-destructive. And using your requirement of "gettingt he popint across" you are once agains wrong as blocking a walkway on college doesn't really shed light to the goals of OWS.


Spoiled brats? You must be a tea-bagger. Next are you going to start calling Democrats "socialists," Germans "Nazis," Muslims "terrorists," etc? This is what we call a "talking point," which further reinforces what I already suspected about you, that you have large gaps in your very small little brain.

Sorry that this whole movement is difficult for you to understand. Maybe if you turned off Fox News, pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, took some initiative and learned a little about the world around you, you would stop using tired and meaningless talking points and try to converse with me like an adult. Again, just trying to give you some advice so you can better yourself.

So lets see here. They were "blocking foot traffic..." because people on foot can't walk around? By your logic, the police were ALSO blocking foot traffic. So why didn't we pepper spray the police? "Well..." you might say (because you are an authoritorian douchebag), "Well, the police are ALLOWED to block foot traffic." However because I have a frontal lobe, I must ask you, for what REASON did the police block foot traffic? When my mother, oh so many years ago, used to tell me not to do something "because I said so!" I did not respect that, and would usually do it anyway. "Because I said so" is not a valid reason. So did the police have a REASON to be blocking foot traffic?

As for why you think sitting on the sidewalk is not civil disobedience...again, you're missing the forest for trees here. If a group of people had just gone and sat down on a sidewalk, you're right, that's not civil disobedience. I know Fox News leaves out lots of this wonderful thing called "context," but this is one of those times when getting a handle on the context is important. They were not just "blocking a walkway." They were involved in a protest. When the police tried to break up the protest (for no real apparent reason, other than "dirty hippies need to get a jeorb"), these folks civilly disobeyed and sat down.

That's pretty damn American to me. Agree or disagree with OWS, you've got to respect these kids for being Americans. For not taking anyone's shiat, and for sitting down when asked to move. That's civil disobedience. It's not on the same level as Rosa Parks perhaps, but that doesn't discount it any. Civil disobedience isn't some sort of a game of one-upmanship. In this case, this particular protest would have been forgotten by now, but people are still talking about it because some kids had the guts to sit down and get sprayed in the face rather than give up their protest "just because." And that, is awesome.
 
2012-05-24 09:51:57 AM

chascarrillo:
The linked article says 20k-25k people in the "sanctioned" march. Yes, the earlier marches weren't "sanctioned"... which excuses the arrests how? Why do you need sanctioning from the state in order to express your opinion?

And as far as the word "arrest": "Hundreds arrested in 'Blockupy' protests in Frankfurt" (Deutsche Welle).


Deutsche Welle's English speaking news site doesn't differentiate between "detained" and "arrested" i.e. cuffed and driven to jail. I was there when most of the "arrests" took place. I was there when they dismantled the camp and I was there when they "arrested" the big group in front of the Messeturm. Most of them were simply cuffed with plastic ties, were searched, had their ID information written down, and were turned lose half an hour later. Very few were put in the vans.

As for neediing sanctions to express your opinions.... Germany has rules about public protests. A very, very large venue was offered for Blockupy on Saturday. Much larger than most protest permits in this city. But rules is rules and Germany's rules state that protests have to be applied for, and approved by the city. Nearly everyone gets an approval. But you can't protest every damned day just cause you feel like it.

FWIW the whole thing was mostly a big pain in the ass for Frankfurt's citizens. Banks suffered exactly zero as it gave them a free chance to work from disaster recovery sites (and they probably got a tax write-off out of it). Small shopkeepers got screwed the most. As usual, the wrong people always get hurt the most.

 
2012-05-24 09:54:19 AM

liam76: Smackledorfer: Second, protests don't work if nobody pays attention. They are SUPPOSED to be in your face demonstrations. With something as important as too much control of our government by big money (which, btw, is something that in theory both conservatives and liberals should agree with: the latter wanting government control of business than the other way around, and the former wanting a small government that wasn't run by business) you can't merely have a one day protest with a handful of people and expect anything to change.

You can't force peopelt opay attention. If your protest does anything to get attention that would otherwise be illegal, calling it aprotest doesn't give you a pass for breaking the law.

You also can't illegally squat on land or block traffic and expect things to change.

That being said I support a lot of the less crazy aspects of the OWs, but the stance of many of their supporters on what they can legally do is downright absurd, and I got no rpoblem if they are tossed in jail whent hey break the law.


You are confusing me saying "they should be above the law in all circumstances" and me saying "I'm ok with people breaking SOME laws while protesting". Furthermore, while I personally believe political rallies should be given some leeway with regards to clogging up areas due to their sheer numbers, and am disgusted by the ways in which police use excessive force to disperse them, I am neither demanding nor expecting that they be given a pass.

liam76: I understand civil disobedience,


I'm not so sure you do, given that you stated above that you don't believe it can effect change. Tell me, how exactly would an anti-establishment movement demonstrate if never given permits? Some cities are already making statements that their acceptance of the OWS presence was a one-time thing, and that they will not be granting permits this year for any OWS demonstrations.
 
2012-05-24 09:56:06 AM

steamingpile: Nope not trolling


Yes, you are.
 
2012-05-24 10:07:38 AM

InfamousBLT: Spoiled brats? You must be a tea-bagger. Next are you going to start calling Democrats "socialists," Germans "Nazis," Muslims "terrorists," etc? This is what we call a "talking point," which further reinforces what I already suspected about you, that you have large gaps in your very small little brain.

Sorry that this whole movement is difficult for you to understand. Maybe if you turned off Fox News, pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, took some initiative and learned a little about the world around you, you would stop using tired and meaningless talking points and try to converse with me like an adult. Again, just trying to give you some advice so you can better yourself.


Yeah people who block paths on college campus rather than do a protest that takes real work, then whine when they are arrested are spoiled brats.

As to your "whole movement" I get it, and in general I support it, I am just pointing out that what they were doing did nothing to get their point across.

But go ahead and keep ignoring what I write and attack me for political positions I don't hold.


InfamousBLT: So lets see here. They were "blocking foot traffic..." because people on foot can't walk around? By your logic, the police were ALSO blocking foot traffic.


No actually the police weren't. The police were trying to leave with people they lawfully arrestedm they were prevented from doing so by the spolied brats whog ot pepper sprayed.


So why didn't we pepper spray the police? "Well..." you might say (because you are an authoritorian douchebag), "Well, the police are ALLOWED to block foot traffic." However because I have a frontal lobe, I must ask you, for what REASON did the police block foot traffic? When my mother, oh so many years ago, used to tell me not to do something "because I said so!" I did not respect that, and would usually do it anyway. "Because I said so" is not a valid reason. So did the police have a REASON to be blocking foot traffic?

Well once again they weren't blocking it, they were trying to leave. Secondly you don't need to be an authoritrian douch bag to understand that we as a society have empowered police with the ability to arrest people, carry guns pepper spray, etc to enforce the law (not that they don't ever overstep this and I am all for punishing them when they do, but this wasn't a case fo that), but you do need to be a whiny little spoiled douche to not understand that.

Also I like you pulling "becasue I said so" out of your ass. You are really good at making up arguments rather than replying to what I said.


InfamousBLT: As for why you think sitting on the sidewalk is not civil disobedience...again, you're missing the forest for trees here. If a group of people had just gone and sat down on a sidewalk, you're right, that's not civil disobedience. I know Fox News leaves out lots of this wonderful thing called "context," but this is one of those times when getting a handle on the context is important. They were not just "blocking a walkway." They were involved in a protest. When the police tried to break up the protest (for no real apparent reason, other than "dirty hippies need to get a jeorb"), these folks civilly disobeyed and sat down.


This is a group who just went and sat on a sidewalk. The police didn't say you can't protest, you must leave, etc. They said you have to keep the sidewalks clear, they then went and sat on them.


InfamousBLT: Civil disobedience isn't some sort of a game of one-upmanship.


According to you it is, becasue this exactly what these kids were playing at. These were spoiled brats who cried when it got to serious. Rosa parks went in knowing and wanting to get arrested to show how farked up the law was and challenge it. These were attention whores who got a police response and whent he police were fine with the protest but just asked them to keep sidewalks clear so kids had no problem getting abotu on campus they tried to "one-up" them by sitting down and forcing a confrontation, only these pussies didn't really want a confrontation, they just wanted to act tough and show those "dirt pigs". fark them, and fark you for trying to put their spoiled attention whore crybaby actions anywhere in the same league as peopel like Rosa Parks.


Still waiting on how blocking sidewlaks on a college campus draw attention to the problems of rich and powerful influencing politics.
 
2012-05-24 10:10:56 AM
Enemabag Jones

Tor_EckmanOne guy shat on a car once.
While creative, it was an ineffectual protest at best.

Which is the difference between a shiat disturber and a disturbed shiat
 
2012-05-24 10:11:45 AM
In the US, military experience is essentially a prerequisite for police work.

However, military experience should all but disqualify you for police work.

That line should never be blurred. Thus, we shouldn't wonder why our fully militarized civilian law enforcement departments have become so authoritarian, antagonistic and win-at-any-cost brutal.
 
2012-05-24 10:18:42 AM

9beers:

In Germany, the protesters respect the law and don't act like dicks, break shiat and causing trouble.



Came here to say this, and glad I'm not the only one with some common sense.

No one ever said it's illegal to march peacefully with the proper permits and planning ahead. Poop in the bushes, break things, and generally be a bunch of d-bags, and you'll get pepper-sprayed and roughed up.

Pretty simple concept, really. Maybe the Germans are generally smarter than the idiot protesters here.

March and make statements all you want to--just take out the proper permits, stay in the agreed-upon areas, and clean up your garbage. Your complaints might be taken seriously by more people if you do.

/Biatch all you want to about the Tea Party, at least they leave their parks cleaner than when they arrived. Dirty OWS fleabags can't say that.
 
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