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(The New York Times)   "Doctor Who Helped Find Bin Laden"   (nytimes.com) divider line 75
    More: Hero, Osama bin Laden, criminal code, Peshawar, Abbottabad, Khyber, Shakil Afridi  
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7663 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 May 2012 at 9:38 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-23 11:41:07 AM

The Southern Logic Company: fwiw, my Dad was in the Cold War and has told me stories of intercepting foreign aircraft/submarines REALLY far out. As far as several hundred miles off the coast of Iceland.


So, around 2,000 miles away? That's pretty impressive. Hopefully we are less touchy today, if only because none of the places we're fighting have planes that could make it all the way over here.
 
2012-05-23 11:46:50 AM

Thunderbox: With the US military having their arses handed back to them in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq and now Afghinstan, the nuclear armed Pakistan couldn't care less what the Americans think.

/ Snitches get stitches


What the fark?

The ONLY reason Korea was a draw was that China got involved and we weren't willing to start WWIII over the Korean peninsula. Best Korea would have been a historic footnote if not for that.

We won in Iraq. We defeated the Hussein regime in a matter of days, which is what we went in there to do (from a military standpoint). You can try to come up with some trollish claim about losing it later, but how do you "win" an occupation?

We are winning in Afghanistan. We, along with our allies, overthrew the Taliban run government and we've killed the man who started the war. Again, what kind of realistic victory conditions could you have for an occupation?

Vietnam? Like Korea, we weren't allowed to go all-in for political reasons. They didn't want to antagonize the Russians too much, and didn't want to spread the war beyond Vietnam, so we were handled ridiculously restrictive rules of engagement for political reasons and then the military was blamed when it was a loss. Even Mike Tyson will have trouble knocking somebody out when you tie one arm behind his back and say he can only backhand people.
 
2012-05-23 11:49:48 AM

NowhereMon: Between Israel and Pakistan we have some excellent taste in strategic partners.


isn't it weird how we align ourselves with nuclear weapon armed nations?
 
2012-05-23 11:54:36 AM

Metaluna Mutant: A Pakistani Doctor Who?

/I'm thinking photoshop thread


Doctor Hooey?
 
2012-05-23 12:05:13 PM

Uchiha_Cycliste: NowhereMon: Between Israel and Pakistan we have some excellent taste in strategic partners.

isn't it weird how we align ourselves with nuclear weapon armed nations?


Now it makes sense that some nations desire nuclear weapons, doesn't it?. Why do you think Israel and Pakistan get away with what they do? You better believe if NK had a working nuke that could hit Japan/Hawaii they would use the kid gloves on them.
 
2012-05-23 12:08:06 PM
So, it wasn't a Fixed Point in Time?

/Allonsy...
 
2012-05-23 12:20:30 PM
Very telling that the Pakistani government considers giving up the location of the #1 anti-American terrorist is an act of treason.

Why are we friends with them again? They're just looking for ways to stab us in the back right now.
 
2012-05-23 12:26:13 PM

The Southern Logic Company: Uchiha_Cycliste: NowhereMon: Between Israel and Pakistan we have some excellent taste in strategic partners.

isn't it weird how we align ourselves with nuclear weapon armed nations?

Now it makes sense that some nations desire nuclear weapons, doesn't it?. Why do you think Israel and Pakistan get away with what they do? You better believe if NK had a working nuke that could hit Japan/Hawaii they would use the kid gloves on them.


Further, we need to keep a hand in keep Pakistan solvent to prevent the aforementioned nukes from falling into other's hands.
 
2012-05-23 12:34:04 PM

Digital Communist: TV's Vinnie: Digital Communist: In all fairness, if a US citizen conspired with a foreign intelligence agency to facilitate a military raid that concluded in multiple assassinations on US soil, that person would face serious consequences. Regardless of the target, the man is a traitor to his country.

If it's treason to turn in a threat to all of Humanity, then maybe your so-called country is a gang of complicit scumbags and don't deserve any allegiance.

It is what it is.

He is a hero who sacrificed more than any westerner to catch Bin Laden. He is still a traitor though - this is not a Disney movie where he gets forgiven for his crimes because the big bad guy got his comeuppance.


Wow. You're a butthole. A terrorist-loving butthole. Never thought I'd dislike someone more than Meinwhatshisnumber, but you passed with flying colors. Grats, brah!
 
2012-05-23 12:40:44 PM

TV's Vinnie: Digital Communist: TV's Vinnie: Digital Communist: In all fairness, if a US citizen conspired with a foreign intelligence agency to facilitate a military raid that concluded in multiple assassinations on US soil, that person would face serious consequences. Regardless of the target, the man is a traitor to his country.

If it's treason to turn in a threat to all of Humanity, then maybe your so-called country is a gang of complicit scumbags and don't deserve any allegiance.

It is what it is.

He is a hero who sacrificed more than any westerner to catch Bin Laden. He is still a traitor though - this is not a Disney movie where he gets forgiven for his crimes because the big bad guy got his comeuppance.

Wow. You're a butthole. A terrorist-loving butthole. Never thought I'd dislike someone more than Meinwhatshisnumber, but you passed with flying colors. Grats, brah!


You hate someone for having a different opinion than you? Not even a different opinion, I am just stating the facts.

Where do you get terrorist loving? I don't even...
 
2012-05-23 12:42:28 PM

TV's Vinnie: Digital Communist: He is a hero who sacrificed more than any westerner to catch Bin Laden. He is still a traitor though - this is not a Disney movie where he gets forgiven for his crimes because the big bad guy got his comeuppance.

Wow. You're a butthole. A terrorist-loving butthole. Never thought I'd dislike someone more than Meinwhatshisnumber, but you passed with flying colors. Grats, brah!


I would be surprised to learn that there is any country where the approved course of action upon finding a criminal is to notify some other country instead of the local police. I can certainly imagine it being the most effective thing to do, and this situation seems like an example of that, but having it be governmentally approved seems odd.
 
2012-05-23 12:53:41 PM

Uchiha_Cycliste: The Southern Logic Company: Uchiha_Cycliste: NowhereMon: Between Israel and Pakistan we have some excellent taste in strategic partners.

isn't it weird how we align ourselves with nuclear weapon armed nations?

Now it makes sense that some nations desire nuclear weapons, doesn't it?. Why do you think Israel and Pakistan get away with what they do? You better believe if NK had a working nuke that could hit Japan/Hawaii they would use the kid gloves on them.

Further, we need to keep a hand in keep Pakistan solvent to prevent the aforementioned nukes from falling into other's hands.


Completely agreed. In the USSR's fall, who the hell knows where some those nukes went. Pakistan would be a gun runner's free for all if it ever went under. It really seems like Pakistan is playing chicken with the US at times. "YOU WON'T LIKE ME WHEN I'M INSOLVENT" "Ok, fine, we'll take our drones out of your country"

Like many farkers though, I really hate helping Pakistan at all. They seem to take the aid and do the bare minimum to get more aid. However, like you said, they can't just be allowed to fall to pieces. Or, in an even worse scenario, have them buddy up with China. I'm sure the PRC would love to have the Aksai Chin territory back. Asking Pakistan to go to war with India wouldn't be hard either, especially with the promise of expanding their territory in Kashmir. The two nations have already collaborated on naval ports together, iirc Pakistan is allowing the non-existant Chinese navy to use their ports.

You have to ask yourself, is all of this worth it? HINT: Global politics don't have easy answers.
 
2012-05-23 01:14:27 PM

Starry Heavens: TV's Vinnie: Digital Communist: He is a hero who sacrificed more than any westerner to catch Bin Laden. He is still a traitor though - this is not a Disney movie where he gets forgiven for his crimes because the big bad guy got his comeuppance.

Wow. You're a butthole. A terrorist-loving butthole. Never thought I'd dislike someone more than Meinwhatshisnumber, but you passed with flying colors. Grats, brah!

I would be surprised to learn that there is any country where the approved course of action upon finding a criminal is to notify some other country instead of the local police. I can certainly imagine it being the most effective thing to do, and this situation seems like an example of that, but having it be governmentally approved seems odd.


Doctor: "Yes. I would like to report that I have found the location of Osama Bin laden"

Police: "Really? Hold on.... (thinks that he put the phone on mute) HEY OSAMA! This guys is trying to report your location. Want us to go over and blow his head off now or wait till you've slipped away to your other hideout? (gets back on phone) That's great news, sir! We'll get right on it.

If you see something being done by the Mafia, the LAST thing you'd want to do is call the police (for obvious reasons). It's best to find an alternative agency.
 
2012-05-23 01:26:03 PM

TV's Vinnie: Wow. You're a butthole. A terrorist-loving butthole. Never thought I'd dislike someone more than Meinwhatshisnumber, but you passed with flying colors. Grats, brah!


No, he's just a guy who owns a dictionary.
 
2012-05-23 01:34:49 PM

TV's Vinnie: If you see something being done by the Mafia, the LAST thing you'd want to do is call the police (for obvious reasons). It's best to find an alternative agency.


Really? That seems like you'd be setting yourself up to be an accessory to murder (if a murder results), which can bear the same legal punishment as committing the murder yourself. I don't know where you live, so I can't look up the laws there, and I still can't think of any country that would approve of not telling the police.

/it seems we both agree that telling someone other than the police can be more effective, so there's no rebuttal to be made to the first part of your comment
 
2012-05-23 01:36:08 PM

The Southern Logic Company: Uchiha_Cycliste: The Southern Logic Company: Uchiha_Cycliste: NowhereMon: Between Israel and Pakistan we have some excellent taste in strategic partners.

isn't it weird how we align ourselves with nuclear weapon armed nations?

Now it makes sense that some nations desire nuclear weapons, doesn't it?. Why do you think Israel and Pakistan get away with what they do? You better believe if NK had a working nuke that could hit Japan/Hawaii they would use the kid gloves on them.

Further, we need to keep a hand in keep Pakistan solvent to prevent the aforementioned nukes from falling into other's hands.

Completely agreed. In the USSR's fall, who the hell knows where some those nukes went. Pakistan would be a gun runner's free for all if it ever went under. It really seems like Pakistan is playing chicken with the US at times. "YOU WON'T LIKE ME WHEN I'M INSOLVENT" "Ok, fine, we'll take our drones out of your country"

Like many farkers though, I really hate helping Pakistan at all. They seem to take the aid and do the bare minimum to get more aid. However, like you said, they can't just be allowed to fall to pieces. Or, in an even worse scenario, have them buddy up with China. I'm sure the PRC would love to have the Aksai Chin territory back. Asking Pakistan to go to war with India wouldn't be hard either, especially with the promise of expanding their territory in Kashmir. The two nations have already collaborated on naval ports together, iirc Pakistan is allowing the non-existant Chinese navy to use their ports.

You have to ask yourself, is all of this worth it? HINT: Global politics don't have easy answers.


Yes it's worth it. The consequences of everything falling to pieces are too dire, at least for someone.
 
2012-05-23 02:31:20 PM

DarkPascual: So, it wasn't a Fixed Point in Time?

/Allonsy...


I am a long-time Dr. Who fan but that whole plot arc -- while initially gripping -- was, frankly, DUMB in how they paid it off.

"HA HA Universe! I was shrunk and hiding in a robot the whole time! Who knew that you could evade essential forces of the universe, fool Time and Space itself, just by playing 'hide and seek'?"

Dumb, Dumb, Dumb.
 
2012-05-23 03:01:16 PM
i6.photobucket.com
 
2012-05-23 03:51:01 PM

Digital Communist: TV's Vinnie: They jail the guy who pinpointed the Most Wanted Man on Earth.

And we are shoveling billions to Pakistan for WHAT reason now?

In all fairness, if a US citizen conspired with a foreign intelligence agency to facilitate a military raid that concluded in multiple assassinations on US soil, that person would face serious consequences. Regardless of the target, the man is a traitor to his country.


Well, let's take that a step further. This is a doctor we're talking about here so, presumably, he wasn't a complete dumbass. If he had come upon information that Bin Laden was hiding in Pakistan and knew exactly where, his immediate choice is: "do I tell the local authorities". Obviously, with the CIA recruiting him to work for them without the knowledge of ISI, the result of telling the local authorities isn't likely to be "and they'll go in and arrest/capture him"...so that option seems to be off the table before it even gets near the table in the first place.

After that, as a human being you have to ask yourself: "do you turn him in to some authority who WILL go after him". In his case, he did that. That said, since he skipped option 1 altogether, the reasons he skipped it ought to have clued him in to the notion that if something happened to Bin Laden he ought to have unassed Pakistan nearly immediately. It's not like they locked the entire country down in the wake of that assclown getting PAID stamped on his account. The good doc should have decided to take the family on an immediate vacation and remind the State Department of the bounty on OBL's head...to make up for the property/life he was leaving behind in Pakistan.
 
2012-05-23 05:23:46 PM

Silverstaff: Thunderbox: With the US military having their arses handed back to them in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq and now Afghinstan, the nuclear armed Pakistan couldn't care less what the Americans think.

/ Snitches get stitches

What the fark?

The ONLY reason Korea was a draw was that China got involved and we weren't willing to start WWIII over the Korean peninsula. Best Korea would have been a historic footnote if not for that.

We won in Iraq. We defeated the Hussein regime in a matter of days, which is what we went in there to do (from a military standpoint). You can try to come up with some trollish claim about losing it later, but how do you "win" an occupation?

We are winning in Afghanistan. We, along with our allies, overthrew the Taliban run government and we've killed the man who started the war. Again, what kind of realistic victory conditions could you have for an occupation?

Vietnam? Like Korea, we weren't allowed to go all-in for political reasons. They didn't want to antagonize the Russians too much, and didn't want to spread the war beyond Vietnam, so we were handled ridiculously restrictive rules of engagement for political reasons and then the military was blamed when it was a loss. Even Mike Tyson will have trouble knocking somebody out when you tie one arm behind his back and say he can only backhand people.



@Silverstaff - You're right about all of those except Vietnam. We were pretty much "all in". In 1968 we had more than 500k soldiers on the ground. We lost 68k servicemen with about 1.5k MIA. We killed 1 million of the NVA/VC. We used everything at our disposal except for WMD. We "lost" because of bad strategy, and the ineptitude of the ARVN.

@Thunderbox - Didn't the Aussies help with us with all those endeavors? :)
 
2012-05-23 06:33:35 PM

Starry Heavens: mongbiohazard: If Breivik had killed 3,000 people and Norway found him in Leesburgh and managed to raid his house, grab him and leave without hurting a single US citizen... I'm pretty sure we'd give them a pass on it, and anyone who helped them manage to pinpoint him too.

Really? I can't imagine we'd be at all cool with any step in the process of a foreign military flying uninvited into our country in the dead of night, crashing then exploding a helicopter into one of our buildings, shooting five people to death and injuring others, and then flying away, all without telling our government anything until two hours later. Even if the raid were against Satan himself, how could there not be serious repercussions for that?

Maybe we could forgive the guy who told the foreigners where Satan was hiding out, but only if he told us first, preferably several weeks in advance. Even then, we'd have Fark threads hundreds of comments long arguing about whether it was treason to encourage another country to attack America, even for a good cause, and even when the US had clearly failed to act. If the tattler were anything but an Angel, I highly suspect he'd lose out in the court of public opinion, and the court of law would be a toss-up.

I think you are hugely underestimating how much the American people would panic at a foreign military flying in and summarily killing five people, even if those people weren't themselves American.


It's a moot point, because the U.S., for all its faults, is not completely corrupt and irresponsible. If someone murdered 3000 civilians in a foreign nation and hid in the United States, the authorities from that nation wouldn't have to act secretly; our own law enforcement officials would apprehend him instead of tipping him off. Pakistan is a failed state, and as such it cannot and should not be treated with the respect due to a real nation.

And don't bother posting pictures of Kissinger and Cheney. Yes, I thought of them, yes, they are arguably just as evil as OBL, yes, they should probably be indicted for crimes against humanity, no, it isn't the same thing.
 
2012-05-23 06:50:14 PM

The Southern Logic Company:

In the USSR's fall, who the hell knows where some those nukes went.


I hear this line pretty often, and it always annoys me, because I know where those nukes went: nowhere special. If any of them had gotten loose we would certainly know it by now, because there would be a smoking crater where a major city used to be. I suppose it's conceivable that some of them may have been "acquired" by other nuclear powers, perhaps some of the technology or equipment involved ended up in Pakistan or North Korea, but overall I think we dodged a bullet here.
 
2012-05-24 02:46:33 AM

Metaluna Mutant: A Pakistani Doctor Who?


Would Pakistani Daleks work?

/PUT HIM IN THE CURRY!!
 
2012-05-24 09:45:49 AM

malaktaus: The Southern Logic Company:

In the USSR's fall, who the hell knows where some those nukes went.

I hear this line pretty often, and it always annoys me, because I know where those nukes went: nowhere special. If any of them had gotten loose we would certainly know it by now, because there would be a smoking crater where a major city used to be. I suppose it's conceivable that some of them may have been "acquired" by other nuclear powers, perhaps some of the technology or equipment involved ended up in Pakistan or North Korea, but overall I think we dodged a bullet here.


That was slightly my point. I wasn't insinuating that they were taken by terrorists but its not hard to foresee a situation where someone got some technology or material after the fall and it ended up in the hands of Israel/Pakistan/India/China. I'm more commenting on the fact that we can never really be sure what the hell happened and if the USSR/Russian Federation is being truthful about all being accounted for. I hope they have been and like you said, I'm pretty sure we dodged a bullet because it could have been a LOT worse. Though, the bigger weapon of mass destruction was the sale of small arms from the former USSR, but that gets left to movies with Nicolas Cage in it.

Though, any situation with Large government + large country + fall of authoritarian regime + instability + poverty/hunger + nuclear weapons is a bad one. You better believe if I was an average Jovovich in the USSR at the fall and my family was hungry, I'd sell some stuff. I'm sure one of those countries listed would have paid enough rubles to feed my family for generations.
 
2012-05-24 11:51:46 AM
So now that it's absolutely clear that Pakistan didn't want Bin Laden found, can we stop giving them money?

And before you pretend that they were trying to find him, how many people have they arrested for harboring him? Clearly not informing them of the raid was the right decision.
 
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