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(National Journal)   We need Immigrants to do the jobs Americans won't. Because Americans isn't smart enough   (nationaljournal.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Americans, Capitol Hill in Washington, immigration, Senate, Kauffman Foundation, Steve Case, academic degrees, Jason Chaffetz  
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1956 clicks; posted to Politics » on 22 May 2012 at 5:32 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-22 02:36:04 PM  
create two new types of visas to attract and keep immigrants skilled in the fields
 
2012-05-22 02:38:16 PM  
actually, we ARE smart enough. see - that's the problem. we're smart enough to code, smart enough to get paid well for it. hire H1B visa workers and most of the US laws on compensation don't apply. work 'em twice as hard, pay 'em half as much. And if they become US citizens you fire their asses and get someone who looks just like 'em.
 
2012-05-22 02:41:09 PM  
so, too dumb for technical work and too fat/lazy for hard physical work. what does that leave us?
 
2012-05-22 02:48:51 PM  

FlashHarry: so, too dumb for technical work and too fat/lazy for hard physical work. what does that leave us?


I don't know about you, but it puts me in technical support where I talk to people from India and Pakistan all the time

/payback...
 
2012-05-22 02:55:53 PM  

Weaver95: actually, we ARE smart enough. see - that's the problem. we're smart enough to code, smart enough to get paid well for it. hire H1B visa workers and most of the US laws on compensation don't apply. work 'em twice as hard, pay 'em half as much. And if they become US citizens you fire their asses and get someone who looks just like 'em.


My husband is an engineer and one company he worked at had over 100 engineers on staff at this plant. In his department there were 18. The only American citizens were him and the supervisor. The only time other Americans were working there was if they needed to hire contract workers for a few months. Not that they were not competetent but could they really not find American MEs and EEs?
 
2012-05-22 02:57:07 PM  
Um only 2 Americans out of the 18. I just noticed that could be read as 2 out of the entire company.
 
2012-05-22 03:03:48 PM  

Gwendolyn: Weaver95: actually, we ARE smart enough. see - that's the problem. we're smart enough to code, smart enough to get paid well for it. hire H1B visa workers and most of the US laws on compensation don't apply. work 'em twice as hard, pay 'em half as much. And if they become US citizens you fire their asses and get someone who looks just like 'em.

My husband is an engineer and one company he worked at had over 100 engineers on staff at this plant. In his department there were 18. The only American citizens were him and the supervisor. The only time other Americans were working there was if they needed to hire contract workers for a few months. Not that they were not competetent but could they really not find American MEs and EEs?


we have a LOT of US engineers, programmers, systems analysts and database people...and we're among the best in the world. But..we expect to be well paid for our efforts. you want top quality people, you pay top dollar for their results. Corporate american doesn't WANT to pay top dollar for US talent. they'd rather hire talent from somewhere else and import it here.
 
2012-05-22 03:11:47 PM  
A bipartisan Senate immigration bill introduced on Tuesday would create two new types of visas to attract and keep immigrants skilled in the fields where the United States is weakest: science, technology, engineering, and math.

Or we could, oh I don't know, possibly start teaching our children science, technology, engineering, and math.
 
2012-05-22 03:12:30 PM  
Clearly the solution is business tax cuts paid for by gutting school funding. All we need is one engineer to design factory machines that are operated with a single button that lights up with a smiling Jesus and occasionally rewards workers with a food pellet (cost of pellet deducted from worker account at company store).
 
2012-05-22 03:14:14 PM  
It doesn't seem fair to just take the STEM talent from other countries without some kind of reciprocation. We should help them out with their shortage of liberal arts people by sending them some of our extras in trade.
 
2012-05-22 03:23:57 PM  

Weaver95: Gwendolyn: Weaver95: actually, we ARE smart enough. see - that's the problem. we're smart enough to code, smart enough to get paid well for it. hire H1B visa workers and most of the US laws on compensation don't apply. work 'em twice as hard, pay 'em half as much. And if they become US citizens you fire their asses and get someone who looks just like 'em.

My husband is an engineer and one company he worked at had over 100 engineers on staff at this plant. In his department there were 18. The only American citizens were him and the supervisor. The only time other Americans were working there was if they needed to hire contract workers for a few months. Not that they were not competetent but could they really not find American MEs and EEs?

we have a LOT of US engineers, programmers, systems analysts and database people...and we're among the best in the world. But..we expect to be well paid for our efforts. you want top quality people, you pay top dollar for their results. Corporate american doesn't WANT to pay top dollar for US talent. they'd rather hire talent from somewhere else and import it here.


THIS!

There have been 2 times in my career where I had trouble finding work due to the economy. Both times I saw the richest corporations crying to congress for more H1B's. This is nothing more than corporate America doing what it can to drive prices down. They have been so effective that whole disciplines in computer science have effectively shut out for American. When is the last time you met a DBA from the good old U.S. of A? 10-15 years ago that was a very high paying field. Now it is full of H1B's that are underpaid and can't even change jobs.
 
2012-05-22 03:27:05 PM  

Weaver95: we have a LOT of US engineers, programmers, systems analysts and database people...and we're among the best in the world. But..we expect to be well paid for our efforts. you want top quality people, you pay top dollar for their results. Corporate american doesn't WANT to pay top dollar for US talent. they'd rather hire talent from somewhere else and import it here.


Wait now. I came to the US from Canada on a L1-A (Management Transfer), and got my Green Card 4 years later in Group 1 classed under "Multi-national Executive".

You may be painting with a bit too large a brush when you say that my company didn't want to pay for local help... in fact, they had to basically write an essay on why no American could do my job.
 
2012-05-22 03:49:58 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I don't know about you, but it puts me in technical support where I talk to people from India and Pakistan all the time

/payback...


that's why i'm in advertising.
 
2012-05-22 03:50:16 PM  

TsarTom: A bipartisan Senate immigration bill introduced on Tuesday would create two new types of visas to attract and keep immigrants skilled in the fields where the United States is weakest: science, technology, engineering, and math.

Or we could, oh I don't know, possibly start teaching our children science, technology, engineering, and math.


Well where is the short term profit in that? These white people are getting older and dying, they need their profits, 401ks and retirement funds filled up as soon as they can!
 
2012-05-22 03:50:53 PM  

Weaver95: Gwendolyn: Weaver95: actually, we ARE smart enough. see - that's the problem. we're smart enough to code, smart enough to get paid well for it. hire H1B visa workers and most of the US laws on compensation don't apply. work 'em twice as hard, pay 'em half as much. And if they become US citizens you fire their asses and get someone who looks just like 'em.

My husband is an engineer and one company he worked at had over 100 engineers on staff at this plant. In his department there were 18. The only American citizens were him and the supervisor. The only time other Americans were working there was if they needed to hire contract workers for a few months. Not that they were not competetent but could they really not find American MEs and EEs?

we have a LOT of US engineers, programmers, systems analysts and database people...and we're among the best in the world. But..we expect to be well paid for our efforts. you want top quality people, you pay top dollar for their results. Corporate american doesn't WANT to pay top dollar for US talent. they'd rather hire talent from somewhere else and import it here.


Abso-farking-loutely!
 
2012-05-22 03:52:59 PM  

sammyk:
There have been 2 times in my career where I had trouble finding work due to the economy. Both times I saw the richest corporations crying to congress for more H1B's. This is nothing more than corporate America doing what it can to drive prices down. They have been so effective that whole disciplines in computer science have effectively shut out for American. When is the last time you met a DBA from the good old U.S. of A? 10-15 years ago that was a very high paying field. Now it is full of H1B's that are underpaid and can't even change jobs.


My first degree is in Computer Science. That is exactly the reason I went back to school and got the hell out of the field. It was a good run from 1994 - 2004 though.
 
2012-05-22 03:59:17 PM  
Is our children learning? Evidently not.
 
2012-05-22 04:07:16 PM  
Fark math and science, too many early classes. I'm going to be on American Idol and be a star!

/or I'll be a drama queen on a reality show
//doubt anyone would want to see my sex tape.
 
2012-05-22 04:09:13 PM  

sammyk: There have been 2 times in my career where I had trouble finding work due to the economy. Both times I saw the richest corporations crying to congress for more H1B's. This is nothing more than corporate America doing what it can to drive prices down. They have been so effective that whole disciplines in computer science have effectively shut out for American. When is the last time you met a DBA from the good old U.S. of A? 10-15 years ago that was a very high paying field. Now it is full of H1B's that are underpaid and can't even change jobs.


I saw this when I was living in San Jose and going to school. It was one of the reasons I decided not to get a CS or similar degree. This push to bring in underpaid talent from overseas was just starting to ramp up and I could see where it was heading.

And I've seen first hand the abuse these guys will take on the job because they're afraid of losing their job and visa.
 
2012-05-22 04:33:44 PM  
1. Export jobs for cheap labor
2. Import cheap labor for jobs
3. Citizens have fewer jobs, depressed pay
4. Citizens cannot purchase goods & services due to lack of money
5. Companies whine/biatch/moan for bailout & tax breaks
6. Companies pocket profits
7. Repeat
 
2012-05-22 04:38:05 PM  
It's scary when Repugnantans and Demoncrats agree.

Demoncrats feel sorry for the poor immigrants and want to give them a new home. Repugnantans want to exploit the smelly people landing on our shores.
 
2012-05-22 04:41:48 PM  

ShawnDoc: sammyk: There have been 2 times in my career where I had trouble finding work due to the economy. Both times I saw the richest corporations crying to congress for more H1B's. This is nothing more than corporate America doing what it can to drive prices down. They have been so effective that whole disciplines in computer science have effectively shut out for American. When is the last time you met a DBA from the good old U.S. of A? 10-15 years ago that was a very high paying field. Now it is full of H1B's that are underpaid and can't even change jobs.

I saw this when I was living in San Jose and going to school. It was one of the reasons I decided not to get a CS or similar degree. This push to bring in underpaid talent from overseas was just starting to ramp up and I could see where it was heading.

And I've seen first hand the abuse these guys will take on the job because they're afraid of losing their job and visa.


You should see the abuse they get when they try to become citizens the legal way. Shared an office with a guy that went through that. He would start the day calling social security or INS and be on hold about 6 hours until he talked to someone. They would send him chasing another piece of paper. Start teh whole process the next day. It went on for almost a year before he got anywhere. The sad part is this is the kind of person we want immigrating here. Well educated, hard worker, just wanted a chance to give his kids a better life than he had growing up. The system is broken.
 
2012-05-22 04:51:46 PM  

FlashHarry: that's why i'm in advertising.


In NYC? On the tech side or creative?

My last job, I had to deal with India for a lot of digital needs. It took to much of my time to run a digital studio dept and deal with that too, so I went elsewhere.
 
2012-05-22 05:00:04 PM  
We look for things.
Things that make us go.
 
2012-05-22 05:02:00 PM  

Weaver95: Gwendolyn: Weaver95: actually, we ARE smart enough. see - that's the problem. we're smart enough to code, smart enough to get paid well for it. hire H1B visa workers and most of the US laws on compensation don't apply. work 'em twice as hard, pay 'em half as much. And if they become US citizens you fire their asses and get someone who looks just like 'em.

My husband is an engineer and one company he worked at had over 100 engineers on staff at this plant. In his department there were 18. The only American citizens were him and the supervisor. The only time other Americans were working there was if they needed to hire contract workers for a few months. Not that they were not competetent but could they really not find American MEs and EEs?

we have a LOT of US engineers, programmers, systems analysts and database people...and we're among the best in the world. But..we expect to be well paid for our efforts. you want top quality people, you pay top dollar for their results. Corporate american doesn't WANT to pay top dollar for US talent. they'd rather hire talent from somewhere else and import it here.


Most of the engineers I was friends with in college have moved out of the country and work with some giant multinational.
 
2012-05-22 05:27:54 PM  

FlashHarry: so, too dumb for technical work and too fat/lazy for hard physical work. what does that leave us?


Management
 
2012-05-22 05:34:22 PM  

TsarTom: A bipartisan Senate immigration bill introduced on Tuesday would create two new types of visas to attract and keep immigrants skilled in the fields where the United States is weakest: science, technology, engineering, and math.

Or we could, oh I don't know, possibly start teaching our children science, technology, engineering, and math.


The science of intelligent design and the math of using a calculator for basic addition?
 
2012-05-22 05:36:26 PM  
H1B's are effectively slave labor and should be illegal with their current structure. Anything that says you must continue to work for an employer no matter what the conditions or else you and your family get deported is inhumane.
 
2012-05-22 05:38:25 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: It's scary when Repugnantans and Demoncrats agree.

Demoncrats feel sorry for the poor immigrants and want to give them a new home. Repugnantans want to exploit the smelly people landing on our shores.


So you view immigrants as both poor and smelly?

Nice. Real nice.
 
2012-05-22 05:38:57 PM  
As a guy who can't find decent paying full time work I'm getting a kick, etc etc.
 
2012-05-22 05:39:11 PM  
What's it gonna be Derpublicans?

Fund the Atheist producing Democrat converting institutions or bring over brown and yellow people?
 
2012-05-22 05:39:21 PM  

Lost Thought 00: H1B's are effectively slave labor and should be illegal with their current structure. Anything that says you must continue to work for an employer no matter what the conditions or else you and your family get deported is inhumane.


if you fight against it then you are a socialist. or anti-capitalist. something bad anyways.
 
2012-05-22 05:39:32 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: FlashHarry: so, too dumb for technical work and too fat/lazy for hard physical work. what does that leave us?

Management


Retail, food service, landscaping.
 
2012-05-22 05:39:33 PM  

FlashHarry: so, too dumb for technical work and too fat/lazy for hard physical work. what does that leave us?


thedailyeater.com
 
2012-05-22 05:40:24 PM  
NO NEW, FIX OLD,


you know we could go about doing the heavy lifting and fix our educational system
 
2012-05-22 05:42:02 PM  

Lost Thought 00: H1B's are effectively slave labor and should be illegal with their current structure. Anything that says you must continue to work for an employer no matter what the conditions or else you and your family get deported is inhumane.


They dont have to choose to move here in the first place, problem solved.
 
2012-05-22 05:42:12 PM  

Weaver95: actually, we ARE smart enough. see - that's the problem. we're smart enough to code, smart enough to get paid well for it. hire H1B visa workers and most of the US laws on compensation don't apply. work 'em twice as hard, pay 'em half as much. And if they become US citizens you fire their asses and get someone who looks just like 'em.


We have a regional jail that was built by a lot of immigrant workers. At the very end, right before they would pay them, they were rounded up by INS. Funny how that keeps happening.
 
2012-05-22 05:46:38 PM  

TsarTom: A bipartisan Senate immigration bill introduced on Tuesday would create two new types of visas to attract and keep immigrants skilled in the fields where the United States is weakest: science, technology, engineering, and math.

Or we could, oh I don't know, possibly start teaching our children science, technology, engineering, and math.


I tried getting a Biology degree. I got the science just find. I couldn't pass Calculus to save my life though. I really tried but I just couldn't.
/Getting a Criminal Justice degree now. Going to try being a detective.
 
2012-05-22 05:46:57 PM  
Perhaps we wouldn't be so weak in the technology/science/math areas if we stopped believing in fantasy and fairy tales - Bible/Koran/Mormon/Talmud - and actually started dealing with reality. At least the Indians have cartoon super heroes for gods. Maybe we just need to add some color.
 
2012-05-22 05:49:19 PM  
I wonder how many college degree holding Americans are in jobs they hate but are tethered there because of their health benefits, or fear that if the boss finds out they are looking they will lose their jobs, even if the job also has really shiatty pay.

Looking at the unemployment rate for bachelor's degree or greater holders, they have around 4.0%.
 
2012-05-22 05:50:10 PM  

Weaver95: actually, we ARE smart enough. see - that's the problem. we're smart enough to code, smart enough to get paid well for it. hire H1B visa workers and most of the US laws on compensation don't apply. work 'em twice as hard, pay 'em half as much. And if they become US citizens you fire their asses and get someone who looks just like 'em.


I had my contract minion go through a rough patch with his company about a month ago. He kept plugging away trying to get residency but his company kept forcing their lawyer on him for the process. A year and a half goes by with promisses of just a couple of fees more.... and a few more.... and a few more. I repeatedly told him to ditch the company lawyer or at least shop around and talk to a couple of independants. Finally he shopped, found a lawyer that is doing his paperwork for a 10th of the cost and he is lighyears ahead (hopefully he gets his green card this year). Sadly just about every level of management in his company came and visited, threatened, and did just about every jerkfaced thing they could do to keep him with their lawyer. Now I am on a tear to get him to report them to the BBB, the state bar, SPCA, the state labor board....
 
2012-05-22 05:51:21 PM  
While kids in HS and College don't get into science because they are afraid their jobs will be outsourced or companies will hire H1-Visas instead.

If you're anti-illegal immigration being pro-Visas just means your anti-Mexican. People overstaying Visas make up about half of illegal immigration.
 
2012-05-22 05:52:38 PM  

meat0918: Looking at the unemployment rate for bachelor's degree or greater holders, they have around 4.0%.


I am not accusing you of being wrong or making that up but do you have a citation for that? I would be really interested in seeing that.
 
2012-05-22 05:52:44 PM  
My wife works in the Metallurgy Dept at the U of U, easily 90% of the people she deals with on a daily basis are Asian or Indian, a few from Mexico, and just a scattering of Americans. This is at one of our OWN Universities, deep in the US, What's wrong with us that we can't get our OWN kids interested in higher education? They're gonna quit building new McDonald's some day, people!

Luckily, my 14 year old stepson gets to volunteer at the lab this summer, so it might at least get him interested, now to worry about the 16 year old...
 
2012-05-22 05:54:22 PM  

Mikey1969: My wife works in the Metallurgy Dept at the U of U, easily 90% of the people she deals with on a daily basis are Asian or Indian, a few from Mexico, and just a scattering of Americans. This is at one of our OWN Universities, deep in the US, What's wrong with us that we can't get our OWN kids interested in higher education? They're gonna quit building new McDonald's some day, people!

Luckily, my 14 year old stepson gets to volunteer at the lab this summer, so it might at least get him interested, now to worry about the 16 year old...


I love metallurgy!
 
2012-05-22 05:57:22 PM  
The real reasons Americans "won't" is because those jobs are sh*t wages.

Pay me 20 bucks an hour and I'll do the job. Oh wait. That makes you mad that I demand being paid a living wage.
 
2012-05-22 05:58:07 PM  
Yes, that will enable you to find people with 10 years experience using Visual Studio 11!

It's a real solution and in no way a fake one designed to artificially depress salaries for professional positions!
 
2012-05-22 05:58:53 PM  

sammyk: ShawnDoc: sammyk: There have been 2 times in my career where I had trouble finding work due to the economy. Both times I saw the richest corporations crying to congress for more H1B's. This is nothing more than corporate America doing what it can to drive prices down. They have been so effective that whole disciplines in computer science have effectively shut out for American. When is the last time you met a DBA from the good old U.S. of A? 10-15 years ago that was a very high paying field. Now it is full of H1B's that are underpaid and can't even change jobs.

I saw this when I was living in San Jose and going to school. It was one of the reasons I decided not to get a CS or similar degree. This push to bring in underpaid talent from overseas was just starting to ramp up and I could see where it was heading.

And I've seen first hand the abuse these guys will take on the job because they're afraid of losing their job and visa.

You should see the abuse they get when they try to become citizens the legal way. Shared an office with a guy that went through that. He would start the day calling social security or INS and be on hold about 6 hours until he talked to someone. They would send him chasing another piece of paper. Start teh whole process the next day. It went on for almost a year before he got anywhere. The sad part is this is the kind of person we want immigrating here. Well educated, hard worker, just wanted a chance to give his kids a better life than he had growing up. The system is broken.


Not for the corps and the people who run them it isn't. They get to pay little to produce buggy product, that they sale at inflated prices, giving them big profit margins, which they get to keep mostly for themselves. They don't have to provide decent or safe working conditions, and they can bust attempts at unionization or political advocacy by just firing their workers and having them deported. It's great for the people at the top, and that's who our politicians deal with everyday.
 
2012-05-22 06:00:28 PM  

TsarTom: A bipartisan Senate immigration bill introduced on Tuesday would create two new types of visas to attract and keep immigrants skilled in the fields where the United States is weakest: science, technology, engineering, and math.

Or we could, oh I don't know, possibly start teaching our children science, technology, engineering, and math.


If they made an effort to improve public education, then how would they justify their campaign to de-fund and tear up the public education system?
 
2012-05-22 06:00:32 PM  

FlashHarry: so, too dumb for technical work and too fat/lazy for hard physical work. what does that leave us?


Consumption. Give us welfare and stimulus money, or what's the point of workers producing stuff?
 
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