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(The New York Times)   "The trouble is, of course, that almost no one can accumulate that much money - in rough terms, about 25 years of living expenses after Social Security and pensions - just by investing in safe assets"   (nytimes.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, social security, financial risk, trading loss, Wharton School, pensions, expenses, ETF, retirement  
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5335 clicks; posted to Business » on 20 May 2012 at 1:29 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-20 01:03:19 PM  
Employee benefits were stripped slowly but methodically so people didn't notice. And now if you think employees should have pensions a good health care you're "entitled". Even if people make more per hour now, it's far less value than before.
 
2012-05-20 01:07:06 PM  
Not only that, but what about when they have that nest egg, and they retire. They have to find a way to take out enough every month/year to live on. They have to keep the money working for them other wise they'll deplete it all. They have to make sure they take out enough to cover the taxes on what they do intend to live on.

All this is supposed to be accomplished by people who snap up things like pets.com and a second home during a housing boom?

Yay for self-determination! They'll f*ck up that 6.2% yearly investment, we'll still wind up paying for them when they become disabled or can't work anymore. And, we won't have that 6.2% they paid in to offset our costs, either.

Unless you think we're just going to sit there and ignore the millions of people who didn't invest as properly as Republicans seem to think everyone capable of.

That immediate flood of extra money in each paycheck, now it would only be ab additional 3.1% because we've already cut it... that would provide a real boost to GDP. We'd feel that new money right now. It would go to homes at historic lows, paying off debt that would free people to make larger purchases again, much more money would flood into the stock market, mostly through mutual funds, as people try to build their retirement fund. It really works great... in the short-term. Then we realize, many years from now just how stupid an idea that was. Unless we just decide to slaughter the poor old people who didn't do the right thing.

It's just so f*cking myopic. My neighbor can barely park in their driveway without screwing that up on a daily basis. I'm supposed to trust that he'll save enough and wisely enough to guarantee he won't need food out of my fridge at 65? Yeah, no thanks. I'm not taking that risk. Keep SS, remove the salary cap... 100% of income taxable. Raise the age a few years. whatever... just keep it. Because I am not paying for your short-sighted bullsh*t that people with free determination will decide in a way that won't cost me money. No!
 
2012-05-20 01:26:13 PM  

NewportBarGuy: Not only that, but what about when they have that nest egg, and they retire. They have to find a way to take out enough every month/year to live on. They have to keep the money working for them other wise they'll deplete it all. They have to make sure they take out enough to cover the taxes on what they do intend to live on.


Used to be that you just put your retirement into safe government bonds as you neared your retirement date. but the return is now so low that your only hope is that the return is at least beating inflation. Plus, I thought that the idea was that once you are retired, you are done with growing your retirement and just living off of it/drawing it down.

Plus in theory, by the time you retire, your house should be paid off, right? so in theory your expenses will be much less.
you dont need two cars anymore, you dont need to work clothes, you dont have work commute expenses, you dont have work lunch expenses...

/been lucky so far, neither my property values, nor my 401k have been destroyed. on the other hand, I didnt buy during the bubble expecting never ending growth and I invested in relatively safe stock funds and not in high risk/high growth funds. LOL
 
2012-05-20 01:36:21 PM  
I-Bonds never decline in value, are issued by Treasury and pay a fixed interest rate, currently 0 percent,

So who is buying I-Bonds any how??
 
2012-05-20 01:39:11 PM  
Then raise the wages that Unkie Ron started a tradition of freezing.
 
2012-05-20 01:45:02 PM  

HempHead: So who is buying I-Bonds any how??


There's more to that sentence.
 
2012-05-20 01:50:44 PM  
The Fed's plan has been to drive interest rates down to force savers into the stock market.
 
2012-05-20 02:09:57 PM  

itsdan: HempHead: So who is buying I-Bonds any how??

There's more to that sentence.


Once I got to the 0% I realized people were farked. You might as well be keeping your cash in a tin box buried out in the back yard.
 
2012-05-20 02:10:05 PM  
I have a Roth IRA. I'm in my late 20's and make my maximum contribution every year. We'll see how it goes, because it hurts like hell saving that much after taxes.

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: The Fed's plan has been to drive interest rates down to force savers into the stock market.


I think that that's more of a side-effect than a goal.
 
2012-05-20 02:12:31 PM  
I'm putting all my money into gold and facebook.
 
2012-05-20 02:17:15 PM  
I'm putting 5% into my 401k to get the full match, and I'm also maxing out my Roth IRA. Odds are that still won't be enough to retire on in 40 years.
 
2012-05-20 02:24:16 PM  
Retirement was never meant to be 1/4 to a 1/3 of your life. It was meant for when you were truly too old to continue working.

Sid_6.7: I have a Roth IRA. I'm in my late 20's and make my maximum contribution every year. We'll see how it goes, because it hurts like hell saving that much after taxes.


Don't worry about it. The government will just seize it like Argentina did to their citizens' retirement savings.


/can't wait to spit on baby boomers dying in the gutter
 
2012-05-20 02:38:38 PM  

HempHead: itsdan: HempHead: So who is buying I-Bonds any how??

There's more to that sentence.

Once I got to the 0% I realized people were farked. You might as well be keeping your cash in a tin box buried out in the back yard.


Again, you stupid fark, the part you quoted did not end with a period.

(I-Bonds never decline in value, are issued by Treasury and pay a fixed interest rate, currently 0 percent, as well as a variable rate that keeps pace with inflation.) . A $100 bond purchased now will be worth $101.10 in six months.
 
2012-05-20 02:43:23 PM  

Sid_6.7: I have a Roth IRA. I'm in my late 20's and make my maximum contribution every year. We'll see how it goes, because it hurts like hell saving that much after taxes.



If you have a Roth, the money goes in before taxes, so you're actually saving a ton up front that you would have paid to the IRS.
 
2012-05-20 02:45:44 PM  

Sid_6.7: I have a Roth IRA. I'm in my late 20's and make my maximum contribution every year. We'll see how it goes, because it hurts like hell saving that much after taxes.


It can work. The stock market, over time, has kept ahead of inflation. Just don't freak and yank your money out on the occasional drops.
 
2012-05-20 02:49:52 PM  

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Sid_6.7: I have a Roth IRA. I'm in my late 20's and make my maximum contribution every year. We'll see how it goes, because it hurts like hell saving that much after taxes.


If you have a Roth, the money goes in before taxes, so you're actually saving a ton up front that you would have paid to the IRS.


Roth money is post-Tax.
 
2012-05-20 02:50:28 PM  

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Sid_6.7: I have a Roth IRA. I'm in my late 20's and make my maximum contribution every year. We'll see how it goes, because it hurts like hell saving that much after taxes.


If you have a Roth, the money goes in before taxes, so you're actually saving a ton up front that you would have paid to the IRS.


No, a Roth is investing after taxes, so you're paying taxes now, but you pay nothing on the growth over the next 30-40 years.
 
2012-05-20 02:51:49 PM  

natazha: Sid_6.7: I have a Roth IRA. I'm in my late 20's and make my maximum contribution every year. We'll see how it goes, because it hurts like hell saving that much after taxes.

It can work. The stock market, over time, has kept ahead of inflation. Just don't freak and yank your money out on the occasional drops.


Actually, do the opposite. Market takes a big hit, double down and buy more. Going with the whole low risk angle, big safe blue chips.
 
2012-05-20 02:52:08 PM  

Serious Black: I'm putting 5% into my 401k to get the full match, and I'm also maxing out my Roth IRA. Odds are that still won't be enough to retire on in 40 years.


So at some point, you will be making enough to put MORE than the 5% into the 401k. Just maxing out the matching part wont be enough.
 
2012-05-20 03:07:33 PM  

RminusQ: HempHead: itsdan: HempHead: So who is buying I-Bonds any how??

There's more to that sentence.

Once I got to the 0% I realized people were farked. You might as well be keeping your cash in a tin box buried out in the back yard.

Again, you stupid fark, the part you quoted did not end with a period.

(I-Bonds never decline in value, are issued by Treasury and pay a fixed interest rate, currently 0 percent, as well as a variable rate that keeps pace with inflation.) . A $100 bond purchased now will be worth $101.10 in six months.


So you are saying, if I have saved $1 million, I can buy I-Bonds and get a cool $11,000 in interest every year?

Kick-ases!!!!!

/off to start saving me $1 million
 
2012-05-20 03:10:09 PM  

RminusQ: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Sid_6.7: I have a Roth IRA. I'm in my late 20's and make my maximum contribution every year. We'll see how it goes, because it hurts like hell saving that much after taxes.


If you have a Roth, the money goes in before taxes, so you're actually saving a ton up front that you would have paid to the IRS.

No, a Roth is investing after taxes, so you're paying taxes now, but you pay nothing on the growth over the next 30-40 years.


Unless they change the tax laws in the next 30-40 years.
 
2012-05-20 03:19:10 PM  

natazha: Sid_6.7: I have a Roth IRA. I'm in my late 20's and make my maximum contribution every year. We'll see how it goes, because it hurts like hell saving that much after taxes.

It can work. The stock market, over time, has kept ahead of inflation. Just don't freak and yank your money out on the occasional drops.

 
2012-05-20 04:08:17 PM  
Solution: Mandatory smoking, and bacon subsidies.

/fight the problem at its source
 
2012-05-20 04:19:51 PM  

namatad: Serious Black: I'm putting 5% into my 401k to get the full match, and I'm also maxing out my Roth IRA. Odds are that still won't be enough to retire on in 40 years.

So at some point, you will be making enough to put MORE than the 5% into the 401k. Just maxing out the matching part wont be enough.


Funny thing about getting divorced from a woman that makes significantly less than you do. Not only do you lose half of your standard deduction and personal exemptions, but you also jump way up in the tax brackets. That put a major damper on my plans. I still have somewhere close to $25k saved though; not terrible for being under 30, but not fantastic either.
 
2012-05-20 04:24:36 PM  

beta_plus: Don't worry about it. The government will just seize it like Argentina did to their citizens' retirement savings.


That's why I have a standard IRA, take the deduction now. Plus, I work a 9-5 + freelancing now, I hope to not work once I'm retired, so I should be in a lower tax bracket when I retire. So why not take the deduction while I'm in a higher bracket then pay taxes when I'm only drawing on savings?
 
2012-05-20 04:32:19 PM  
Yay for self-determination.

Screw it up and run out of money? Tough shiat.
 
2012-05-20 05:07:23 PM  

SevenizGud: Yay for self-determination.

Screw it up and run out of money? Tough shiat.


I'll take my bail out in the form of a zero percent loan that I can then turn around and loan to the general public at prime to 29% APR please.

Then I will put on a three thousand dollar suit and lecture people about self-reliance.
 
kab
2012-05-20 05:11:34 PM  
So if you bought $10,000 of I-Bonds each year over a 40-year career

If this sort of thing is in the realm of possibility for you, you don't need this article. For everyone else, this article should read:

"You will never retire, only expire."
 
2012-05-20 05:41:49 PM  
On the off chance I some how make it to retirement...I don't make enough to put more into my 401K beyond what my employer puts in so I'm in the "work until I drop dead category."

/Should I just start eating a little cat food each day to develop a taste for it?
//Perhaps I should just pratice my armed robbery skills so by the time I need them they're second nature
 
2012-05-20 05:41:58 PM  

Sid_6.7: I have a Roth IRA. I'm in my late 20's and make my maximum contribution every year. We'll see how it goes, because it hurts like hell saving that much after taxes.



I'm undecided on the Roth. Do you really know you'll be in a higher tax bracket when you eventually use the funds compared to now? Usually you will be retired with no real income, so your tax rate now is higher. Either way you are limited at how much you can put in every year, you should go also with a regular IRA.
 
2012-05-20 05:42:21 PM  
For you older Farkers who get palpitations reading about this stuff, and want to educate yourselves so you can make informed decisions, read these:

ecx.images-amazon.com

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/index.php

http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Main_Page
 
2012-05-20 05:51:35 PM  
Retirement is wasted on the old. If you want it, you can quit working that soul shredding job right now. You just have to do something that not everyone and their brother is doing right now.

And as far as investing, right now... The trillions in the market represent millions of people who are going to want to retire, and they're expecting all these non-dividend stocks to support them. All those bonuses to senior management instead of dividends over the years... Who's going to buy the stocks they're gonna have to sell?

The market is inflated, fit to burst. P/E of 14-25 being normal? fark that's high. It's high because everyone keeps buying and there's only so much to go around.

I think rental property might actually be a great investment right now. Housing values are down, people have a hard time getting credit. In fact, this whole crash looked like it was designed to make a nation of renters.
 
2012-05-20 06:08:17 PM  

intelligent comment below: Either way you are limited at how much you can put in every year, you should go also with a regular IRA.


The $5000 limit is across both types, you can't put $5k into a roth and $5k into a normal one. You could split it however you want between them. 401k contributions count against the limit, but I think only what YOU contribute..? Not sure on that one. I know I have a real pension at work and none of that counts against what I can contribute, but I'm also really farking lucky to have a pension, which is only because my boss wanted to put away a lot of money for himself.
 
2012-05-20 06:23:47 PM  

wildcardjack: Retirement is wasted on the old. If you want it, you can quit working that soul shredding job right now. You just have to do something that not everyone and their brother is doing right now.


Or take a good long hard look at the standard of living you're enjoying now.

Our retirement plan is crazy frontloaded. My wife and I are working full-time jobs, foregoing most opportunities to travel, not having kids. We drive hippiemobiles (Fit, Prius) and installed a high-efficiency furnace (bye-bye, oil tank). We're doing all this because we are absolutely raping our mortgage with early payments (I already paid off my student loans). According to my calculations we'll pay off the house in five years. (We closed last year. No, we don't make a killing.) If we pull this off we can maintain a comfortable standard of living on a mere $30k/year (combined income) with breathing room to spare. But to reiterate, that's because we have a goal and doing what's necessary to achieve it. We don't like the rat race so rather than biatch about it or pray the stock market will do something highly unlikely, we're doing what's within our control to get out. And consumers have few things more in control than their spending.

If you want to have kids, go on vacations, eat out, drive huge vehicles, buy 50 pairs of shoes and a garage full of power tools and live in a big house. . . well, you can. But for most middle class that's paycheck to paycheck. If you want to retire, ever, you are going to have to realize at some point you can't have it all. This is a numbers game, so. . .

You haven't got a choice.
 
2012-05-20 06:28:02 PM  

HempHead: I-Bonds never decline in value, are issued by Treasury and pay a fixed interest rate, currently 0 percent,

So who is buying I-Bonds any how??


This.
Technically, they are fairly safe, but they are also not technically an "investment", either.
What kind of financial advisor would recommend such a thing?
 
2012-05-20 06:44:33 PM  

mcreadyblue: RminusQ: HempHead: itsdan: HempHead: So who is buying I-Bonds any how??

There's more to that sentence.

Once I got to the 0% I realized people were farked. You might as well be keeping your cash in a tin box buried out in the back yard.

Again, you stupid fark, the part you quoted did not end with a period.

(I-Bonds never decline in value, are issued by Treasury and pay a fixed interest rate, currently 0 percent, as well as a variable rate that keeps pace with inflation.) . A $100 bond purchased now will be worth $101.10 in six months.

So you are saying, if I have saved $1 million, I can buy I-Bonds and get a cool $11,000 in interest every year?

Kick-ases!!!!!

/off to start saving me $1 million


You have to pay taxes on that $11k in inflation you received from the I-Bonds.
 
2012-05-20 07:37:10 PM  

wildcardjack: Retirement is wasted on the old. If you want it, you can quit working that soul shredding job right now. You just have to do something that not everyone and their brother is doing right now.

And as far as investing, right now... The trillions in the market represent millions of people who are going to want to retire, and they're expecting all these non-dividend stocks to support them. All those bonuses to senior management instead of dividends over the years... Who's going to buy the stocks they're gonna have to sell?

The market is inflated, fit to burst. P/E of 14-25 being normal? fark that's high. It's high because everyone keeps buying and there's only so much to go around.

I think rental property might actually be a great investment right now. Housing values are down, people have a hard time getting credit. In fact, this whole crash looked like it was designed to make a nation of renters.


How so? Companies have been breaking profitability records for the last 2.5 years.

www.advisorperspectives.com
 
2012-05-20 07:39:16 PM  

HempHead: mcreadyblue: RminusQ: HempHead: itsdan: HempHead: So who is buying I-Bonds any how??

There's more to that sentence.

Once I got to the 0% I realized people were farked. You might as well be keeping your cash in a tin box buried out in the back yard.

Again, you stupid fark, the part you quoted did not end with a period.

(I-Bonds never decline in value, are issued by Treasury and pay a fixed interest rate, currently 0 percent, as well as a variable rate that keeps pace with inflation.) . A $100 bond purchased now will be worth $101.10 in six months.

So you are saying, if I have saved $1 million, I can buy I-Bonds and get a cool $11,000 in interest every year?

Kick-ases!!!!!

/off to start saving me $1 million

You have to pay taxes on that $11k in inflation you received from the I-Bonds.


How does a 1.1% return in six months end up being a $11K return on $1MM in one year?
 
2012-05-20 07:49:32 PM  

Moopy Mac: How so? Companies have been breaking profitability records for the last 2.5 years.


um, could it be because P/E ratio is a ration and the S&P composite is the sum of stock prices and not indexed (against inflation or anything else)
 
2012-05-20 08:00:27 PM  

itsdan: The $5000 limit is across both types, you can't put $5k into a roth and $5k into a normal one. You could split it however you want between them. 401k contributions count against the limit, but I think only what YOU contribute..? Not sure on that one


You can contribute to both IRA's and a 401K at the same time. The limits remain the same so 16,500 for a 401K and 5,000 for an IRA. However, depending on your adjusted weighted income, you may be ineligible to take the tax break for contributing to a traditional IRA.

Link
 
2012-05-20 09:29:26 PM  

RminusQ: HempHead: itsdan: HempHead: So who is buying I-Bonds any how??

There's more to that sentence.

Once I got to the 0% I realized people were farked. You might as well be keeping your cash in a tin box buried out in the back yard.

Again, you stupid fark, the part you quoted did not end with a period.

(I-Bonds never decline in value, are issued by Treasury and pay a fixed interest rate, currently 0 percent, as well as a variable rate that keeps pace with inflation.) . A $100 bond purchased now will be worth $101.10 in six months.


The problem there is it's the government that determines what the level of inflation is. Lately they've been pulling tricks with their calculations, for example postulating that the expensive cut of meat you used to purchase can be replaced with an "equivalent" -- though cheaper -- cut of meat, and therefore there's no price inflation in meat.
 
2012-05-20 10:02:15 PM  

dragonchild: wildcardjack: Retirement is wasted on the old. If you want it, you can quit working that soul shredding job right now. You just have to do something that not everyone and their brother is doing right now.

Or take a good long hard look at the standard of living you're enjoying now.

Our retirement plan is crazy frontloaded. My wife and I are working full-time jobs, foregoing most opportunities to travel, not having kids. We drive hippiemobiles (Fit, Prius) and installed a high-efficiency furnace (bye-bye, oil tank). We're doing all this because we are absolutely raping our mortgage with early payments (I already paid off my student loans). According to my calculations we'll pay off the house in five years. (We closed last year. No, we don't make a killing.) If we pull this off we can maintain a comfortable standard of living on a mere $30k/year (combined income) with breathing room to spare. But to reiterate, that's because we have a goal and doing what's necessary to achieve it. We don't like the rat race so rather than biatch about it or pray the stock market will do something highly unlikely, we're doing what's within our control to get out. And consumers have few things more in control than their spending.

If you want to have kids, go on vacations, eat out, drive huge vehicles, buy 50 pairs of shoes and a garage full of power tools and live in a big house. . . well, you can. But for most middle class that's paycheck to paycheck. If you want to retire, ever, you are going to have to realize at some point you can't have it all. This is a numbers game, so. . .

You haven't got a choice.


My solution; 12% of my income into retirement, every month. Increase it every time I get a raise. get my home paid off by 40, and save even more for the duration of the last 20 years of my career. If it works, I'll be able to live and get by easily. If it doesnt work, then when I run out of money when i'm retired, suck down a bottle of sleeping pills and go to bed, never to wake up.
 
2012-05-20 10:03:39 PM  

HempHead: I-Bonds never decline in value, are issued by Treasury and pay a fixed interest rate, currently 0 percent,

So who is buying I-Bonds any how??


People who's native currency is Euro
 
2012-05-20 10:21:09 PM  

jjorsett: The problem there is it's the government that determines what the level of inflation is. Lately they've been pulling tricks with their calculations, for example postulating that the expensive cut of meat you used to purchase can be replaced with an "equivalent" -- though cheaper -- cut of meat, and therefore there's no price inflation in meat.



And here comes the GED in economics. Any cost increase in food is because of rising energy prices, which is certainly calculated in the inflation index. The government stopped printing wildly fluctuating food inflation because of speculation and increases because of gas prices.
 
2012-05-20 10:39:31 PM  

namatad: Serious Black: I'm putting 5% into my 401k to get the full match, and I'm also maxing out my Roth IRA. Odds are that still won't be enough to retire on in 40 years.

So at some point, you will be making enough to put MORE than the 5% into the 401k. Just maxing out the matching part wont be enough.


as someone who hasn't received a raise in the past four years and was told not to expect one for the next two, I get a kick out of statements like this.

I am sure you are being optimistic, but this type of mentality got a lot of people in trouble with the housing crisis. Sure take out this loan, once you get all those raises over the years, you can easily afford it.

There is a new paradigm where we should not assume that at some point we will make more than we are now. Raises are no longer a given. Hell, just keeping your own pay rate with no reduction in pay, furloughs, cut backs on benefits, contributions is no longer a given. I am in my early 30's and everyone I talk to from my generation is saving for retirement but none of us really ever expect to retire. We are planning on living at a level lower than our parents, to deal with stagnating careers and no real place to get ahead.

The only way we see to get a raise is to just get a new job every few years that has a higher starting pay, then never getting a raise at the new job. Rinse and repeat. I did exactly this last year, went from a professor to chair and got a 30k "raise" in pay. So I cannot really complain about not getting a raise for the next two years since I just in essence got a 30k raise. But this is not an option that everyone can do. Not every professor can become chair, not every sales associate can become manager, there just aren't enough of higher positions for everyone to get into to get a raise. I am already doing what I can in the hopes of maybe becoming a dean in the future if I wanted or needed to in case thats the only way to make more pay.

Things are gonna suck for the next twenty years and we just have to find some way to scrap by. The new "getting ahead in life" is managing not to fall behind.
 
2012-05-20 11:20:34 PM  
Heh. 40 years from now, the oceans won't have any fish, and petroleum will be gone or dwindling. Parts of the United States will have been abandoned due to a lack of economical water sources.

And you're worried about saving up enough money to get by. Good luck, farkers. I hope all of you have long, long, long lives.
 
2012-05-20 11:37:07 PM  
My father lives quite nicely just on social security and pension. In China.

Low housing cost, utility cost, medical cost, food cost, beer cost, travel cost, golf course cost, hot spring spa cost...

(Much) less that $20k p/y.

Places like Thailand are comparable.

So, I guess that's my advice. Won't make enough to retire in the US? Retire abroad.

/subby
 
2012-05-20 11:42:23 PM  

James F. Campbell: Heh. 40 years from now, the oceans won't have any fish, and petroleum will be gone or dwindling. Parts of the United States will have been abandoned due to a lack of economical water sources.

And you're worried about saving up enough money to get by. Good luck, farkers. I hope all of you have long, long, long lives.


Lemme guess. You recommend putting it all in ammo for the coming apocalypse or something.
 
2012-05-21 12:27:02 AM  

wildcardjack: Retirement is wasted on the old. If you want it, you can quit working that soul shredding job right now. You just have to do something that not everyone and their brother is doing right now.


...like selling books and DVDs online?
 
2012-05-21 12:27:43 AM  
Late 30s. 9% total salary going into the 401k (75% company match). 1/2 into Roth, 1/2 into regular. Lately I've been thinking of going more 60/40 roth/regular. I'd rather pay the taxes now, but the tax % after retirement won't be as nasty as it is now (since I won't be 'earning' 6 figures/annually based on 401 withdraws). It gets a little nerve racking, which is why I figure 50/50 is the safest long term split.
 
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