mc6809e: Splinshints:

Would be hard to do if he was still in his car where the 911 operator told him to stay. Remember Zimmerman reported he called 911 from the car.

Oh I get it. You're part of that group that says "if she hadn't dressed that way..."

Right. People who are beaten by aggressive young men deserve it for getting out of the car.

Not to mention Trayvon pulled that whole stupid intimidation thing where he reached inside his pants like he had a gun.

Propain_az: Zimmerman is a patsy. Martin was taken out by Republican Drug runners from Boston. The method of execution is their standard MO

0/10

You need to bring in the Lizard People and the Queen of England to make this believable.

Blowmonkey:
The fact that this boy is dead as a direct result of Zimmerman's actions

This kid is dead because he was too inexperienced to understand that the man he attacked might have a gun.

Propain_az: When did the police tell Zimmerman to stop following Martin? 911 Operators ARE NOT POLICE! They have no authority over anybody. Also, can provide proof that Martin was provoked?

Can you provide evidence Zimmerman didn't get out of his car with his weapon drawn, yelling every obscenity he could think of?

Your Boss: To all of you Zim-haters out there..


Umm.. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

No marks on him, eh?
did I mention BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!??
/ha
//haha

Crow for lunch anyone????


Jeezus, a kid is dead, another guy's life is ruined, and you're cheering on the sidelines because "your team" got some news that's arguably in its favor (and it's far from conclusive, btw)?

You're disgusting.

I alone am best:
Not to mention Trayvon pulled that whole stupid intimidation thing where he reached inside his pants like he had a gun.

Yep. Don't try to bluff someone with a strong hand.

DROxINxTHExWIND: plasticuser: Zimmerman looks like he will be acquitted. He'll be killed by someone who thinks this is really unfair, and THEN the riots will start.

Strangely, I think on the balance of the evidence before me, and the wording of the law, I think Zimmerman will be freed by the SYG law, the law will be re-written, and the person who kills him will just be a murderer.

All pretty sick.

Simply changing the law so you can only stand your ground when you're on, you know, YOUR ground... *shakes head*



How's that Casey Anthony riot/vigilante murder going for you?

The people offended by her acquittal are generally unarmed housewives. The people generally offended by Zimmerman's likely acquittal are armed, angry black males. Looking at crime statistics, it's easy to see one is not like the other.

IrateShadow: Propain_az: When did the police tell Zimmerman to stop following Martin? 911 Operators ARE NOT POLICE! They have no authority over anybody. Also, can provide proof that Martin was provoked?

Can you provide evidence Zimmerman didn't get out of his car with his weapon drawn, yelling every obscenity he could think of?

Yeah. The 911 tape records the moment he left his vehicle. He wasn't yelling obscenities and because he was holding his phone with one hand and opening the door with the other, it's unlikely he had a gun drawn.

Got anything else?

I alone am best: DROxINxTHExWIND: It's a little sad to see a group of people who have such an infantile, underdeveloped sense of right and wrong that instead of relying on their moral compass to determine whether an unarmed boy deserved to die, they fall back on the letter of a law...written by a man who says that the law should not be applied in this case. For those few non-trolls who are trying to honestly debate the evidence, do you seriously believe that a child deserved to die because Florida law makes it legal for Zimmerman to start an altercation and kill a kid when he feels threatened? This shiat is almost unbelievable to me.


/almost

If he physically attacked someone and was slamming his head into the cement, what would you have done in that situation? Please sir, stop trying to bash my brains out.

Naw. I would have stayed in the truck and waited for police...if I were the typs of guy to call them because someone was walking down the street.

Tatsuma: Also wasn't Martin supposed to be talking on his cellphone with his girlfriend? It doesn't seem to list a cellphone as one of his possessions.

Try Item #11 on the evidence list, dumbass. Right there next to the iced tea can.

i think its rather telling that it and the other items were found away from the body, not on him. Could rather support that whole idea he was talking on the phone when he was confronted and the phone knocked away from him.
people generally don't plot to go chase down and 'ambush' people while carrying objects in both hands.

/waiting for the apologists to say the phone and.or the can was a deadly weapon, therefore self-defense.

One Bad Apple: plasticuser: Zimmerman looks like he will be acquitted. He'll be killed by someone who thinks this is really unfair, and THEN the riots will start.

Truly central Florida will witness the full and terrible wrath of angry white Hispanics on that day.


Zimmerman (or his law talking guys) already tried to reach out to La Raza et al and they told him "How about no". Nobody is going to riot over some vigilante whacking Zimmerman a year from now except the people that will riot when THAT guy is arrested and convicted.

*grin* yeah, that sounds right. I agree with you.

/hands in fark ID and goes to live in seclusion.

relcec: Guidette Frankentits SmartestFunniest 2012-05-18 01:55:44 PM


relcec: it doesn't even matter who attacked who first.

I call your wife a dirty whore in a bar, you punch me, I shoot you, should I be allowed to say "I stood my ground!"?

even in Florida you'd be convicted of manslaughter if not murder for that.
and even if you never called my wife a dirty whore. even if I just punched you in the face because I don't like the way you smell.

now see if you can find where zimmerman's attorney would argue your hypothetical incident and the real one can be distinguished. I know you can do it.

exactly, it would be exceedingly difficult to argue a punch could cause someone to have a reasonable fear for serious bodily injury. With those injuries, zimmerman's attorney at least will have a fair opportunity to convince the jury he had a reasonable fear that he was receiving/about to receive serious bodily.

that's all this case hinges on. it has nothing to do with who chased who, what the dispatcher said, who started the actual fight, or whether florida requires Zimmerman to run away before using lethal force because everyone agrees Martin was on top of Zimmerman and had him under control.

Incorrect. The charge is that Zimmerman was acting with a depraved mind. That Zimmerman's actions are consistent with someone acting with blatant disregard for human life.

He (the Defense) will need to affirm to the jury that his actions were legal, reasonable, and necessary to defend himself.

DROxINxTHExWIND: It's a little sad to see a group of people who have such an infantile, underdeveloped sense of right and wrong that instead of relying on their moral compass to determine whether an unarmed boy deserved to die, they fall back on the letter of a law...written by a man who says that the law should not be applied in this case. For those few non-trolls who are trying to honestly debate the evidence, do you seriously believe that a child deserved to die because Florida law makes it legal for Zimmerman to start an altercation and kill a kid when he feels threatened? This shiat is almost unbelievable to me.


/almost

The "boy" was in a neighborhood that he didn't belong--a gated community no less. A member of the local neighborhood watch started following him. At some point later he gets into a confrontation with said member of the local neighborhood watch, and rather than deescalate the situation and get the hell out of there, he decides to get physical. He gets the better of the other man and gets shot for his trouble.

No one disputes this is a tragedy, and an avoidable one. The question is, "was a crime committed?" Two separate issues.

If Martin had been my son, he would have been taught better than to cut through gated communities and he absolutely would have been taught that no matter how much of an asshole someone is being, walk away. Fighting is always the last resort--you never know when you might end up being the only guy who brought fists to a knife or gun fight.

monoski: tenpoundsofcheese: monoski: tenpoundsofcheese: monoski: kvinesknows: Nabb1: I guess the paramedics who responded at the scene are in on the conspiracy, too, since they reported injuries to Zimmerman's face and head.

funny how usually paramedics would clean a wound and dress it. Nice bandages on his head and interesting how there is no stuck on old dried up blood.

It does not matter if he got beat up. The law says you cannot pick a fight, get your ass kicked then shoot and call it self-defense.

who said he picked a fight?
Proof?

He is on the police 911 recording being told not to follow Trayvon but he must have continued to follow him or he would not be in proximity to get his ass kicked.

Yeah so? What does that have to do with the question?

Who said he picked a fight? Proof?

I see where you are going and I will agree that picked a fight was a bad choice of words but Zimmerman called 911 from his car and was told not to follow (Martin) him, we know he disregarded that and left his car to continue following this is where he crossed the legal line (in my eyes) whether he left to start a confrontation or not.

Yeah, that is all true, except he didn't cross any legal line. Following someone after 911 tells you "you don't need to do that" is hardly breaking any laws. Stupid thing to do? Sure. Crossing a legal line, no.

I don't see a neighborhood watch person like Zimmerman actually picking a fight with a 6'3'' person, especially when he tells 911 that the person has his hands in his waste band and that he is coming towards him and he has something in his hands and I don't know what it is (I doubt Zimmerman was thinking Skittles).

IrateShadow: Propain_az: When did the police tell Zimmerman to stop following Martin? 911 Operators ARE NOT POLICE! They have no authority over anybody. Also, can provide proof that Martin was provoked?

Can you provide evidence Zimmerman didn't get out of his car with his weapon drawn, yelling every obscenity he could think of?

Yup. Him exiting the vehicle, losing sight of Martin, taking a few steps then stopping are documented in the 911 call.

I suggest you stick to the "why are we still talking about this?! this is such old news!" party line. Everyone will still know what you mean and what you are, but at least there will be no direct proof of your unwillingness to accept reality.

Who the hell cares about "facts" and "evidence"? I made up my mind instantly about whether Zimmerman was an innocent victim who was defending himself or a cold-blooded murderer based entirely on my personal political views about minorities and guns.

Propain_az: No witnesses described that scenario. Look, just you want to believe that Zimmerman, a very powerful white man, murdered an innocent black baby, doesn't change what happened.

No witnesses have said that it didn't happen, either. You just want to believe that Zimmerman timidly approached Martin and asked him to share his candy. This, of course, throw Martin into a murderous rage that was only calmed when Zimmerman graciously offered Martin his gun, which he used to shoot himself in the chest.

mc6809e: Blowmonkey:
The fact that this boy is dead as a direct result of Zimmerman's actions

This kid is dead because he was too inexperienced to understand that the man he attacked might have a gun.

We don't know who initiated the attack. You may BELIEVE you know but shame on you for stating it as a fact.

Blowmonkey: This is getting ridiculous.

Zimmerman should not have been following Trayvon, he was explicitly told by police to stop. S

No he was not. Can you stop with this lie?

He was told by 911 "we don't need you to do that". That is
(a) not the police
(b) not explicitly telling him to stop.

Tatsuma: Also wasn't Martin supposed to be talking on his cellphone with his girlfriend? It doesn't seem to list a cellphone as one of his possessions.

250+ Comments, and you are the ONLY person that also caught that.

DROxINxTHExWIND: It's a little sad to see a group of people who have such an infantile, underdeveloped sense of right and wrong that instead of relying on their moral compass to determine whether an unarmed boy deserved to die, they fall back on the letter of a law...written by a man who says that the law should not be applied in this case. For those few non-trolls who are trying to honestly debate the evidence, do you seriously believe that a child deserved to die because Florida law makes it legal for Zimmerman to start an altercation and kill a kid when he feels threatened? This shiat is almost unbelievable to me.


/almost

I don't know if anyone said he "deserved" to die.

I certainly don't belive that.


You don't know if Zimmerman "started" the altercation.

If someone is hitting you in the face, and bashing your head on the sidewalk (something we know Martin did) it isn't just a matter of "feeling" threatened.

If Zimmerman attacked Martin he should go to jail for a long time. If Martin attacked Zimmerman I think he should walk.

frepnog: bulldg4life: frepnog: except for the wounds on Treyvon's hands indicating that he attacked someone and the someone he attacked having been beat up and had injuries consistent with being beaten up, no.

Do people really believe that a man waiting on police to show up is going to attack a suspicious person, a suspicious person that is actively HIDING from you and then reappears and confronts you?

Zimmerman grabbing Martin or brandishing his weapon in an attempt to keep Martin from escaping is totally insane.

pretty much, since there is ZERO evidence to support either claim.

even Treyvon's girl says Martin yelled at Zimmerman first.

So what? Speaking as someone who has actually been stalked by a random stranger in the street you bet your ass I'd start yelling the moment they got out of their car. That's how you attract attention and possibly intimidate them into leaving you alone. Worked in my case.

mc6809e: it's unlikely he had a gun drawn.

Unlikely isn't didn't.

The story in a nutshell:

OMG!!! a white guy shot an unarmed black kid!!

(media releases photos of a 12 yr old Trayvon & a lightened 5 or so year old photo of George in county oranges)

Wait, George is Hispanic???!?!

(media coins the phrase "white Hispanic" to continue their 'against YT' race baiting b.s.)

Well, Trayvon was a good kid, he never attacked anyone!!! George walked up and shot him!! The police told him not to follow!!!

(school records & Facebook posts come out showing he might have attacked a bus driver....) (911 call released, edited by news media to make George look racist) (a 911 dispatcher has no authority... the POLICE did not tell George not to follow, a dispatcher said they didn't need him to follow)

SO WHAT?!?! That doesn't mean he attacked George! George had a gun, what did this kid do... walk up and start a fight with a gun carrying WHITE GUY!!

(photos released of George's injuries from the attack. Head was split open, blood was visible, nose was scratched)

OMG! Look at those scratches!! I've hit my head harder and wasn't even bothered about it!!!

(medical records and autopsy report out. George did also have a broken nose, Trayvon did have hand injuries showing he was the aggressor)

SO?!?! The police told him not to follow!!

/repeat, rinse, repeat...

Martin sympathizers sure like to skew the facts to make it look like this white guy just walked up and blasted the poor, innocent black kid.

A lot of people in this thread have followed this case much closer than me. I thought I heard the HOA board knew Zimmerman carried a gun around during his neighborhood watchin'. Curious if that is actually true and if so does that open up them to be sued...

CliChe Guevara:
i think its rather telling that it and the other items were found away from the body, not on him. Could rather support that whole idea he was talking on the phone when he was confronted and the phone knocked away from him.
people generally don't plot to go chase down and 'ambush' people while carrying objects in both hands.


And we know Marin must have been a mutant with at least three hands, because he had a cell phone, skittles, and iced tea, and there's no other way to carry things with hands.

/one day I'm going to invent pockets and make millions.

Propain_az: I see where you are going and I will agree that picked a fight was a bad choice of words but Zimmerman called 911 from his car and was told not to follow (Martin) him, we know he disregarded that and left his car to continue following this is where he crossed the legal line (in my eyes) whether he left to start a confrontation or not.

What legal line did he cross? 911 Operators have no authority over ANYBODY. They are not Police Officers, and you know this.


Yes, the 911 operator does not have "authority" to tell him to stop but she was giving valid advice. There was no need for him to pursue the suspect. He chose to pursue Martin putting himself in a situation where a conflict occurred. That is not "Standing your ground"

I alone am best: Not to mention Trayvon pulled that whole stupid intimidation thing where he reached inside his pants like he had a gun.

And, yet, there's that niggling little detail about the entire confrontation only happening because Zimmerman caused the confrontation in the first place....

anyone think that maybe zimmerman was backpedaling away from martin and as he shot, he fell and hit is head?

hdhale: DROxINxTHExWIND: It's a little sad to see a group of people who have such an infantile, underdeveloped sense of right and wrong that instead of relying on their moral compass to determine whether an unarmed boy deserved to die, they fall back on the letter of a law...written by a man who says that the law should not be applied in this case. For those few non-trolls who are trying to honestly debate the evidence, do you seriously believe that a child deserved to die because Florida law makes it legal for Zimmerman to start an altercation and kill a kid when he feels threatened? This shiat is almost unbelievable to me.


/almost

The "boy" was in a neighborhood that he didn't belong--a gated community no less. A member of the local neighborhood watch started following him. At some point later he gets into a confrontation with said member of the local neighborhood watch, and rather than deescalate the situation and get the hell out of there, he decides to get physical. He gets the better of the other man and gets shot for his trouble.

No one disputes this is a tragedy, and an avoidable one. The question is, "was a crime committed?" Two separate issues.

If Martin had been my son, he would have been taught better than to cut through gated communities and he absolutely would have been taught that no matter how much of an asshole someone is being, walk away. Fighting is always the last resort--you never know when you might end up being the only guy who brought fists to a knife or gun fight.

0/10

CrazyCracka420 SmartestFunniest 2012-05-18 02:03:52 PM


How can you initiate a confrontation with someone, make them feel their life is in danger enough to defend themselves, and then yourself claim self defense?

When you are the aggressor, you can't claim self defense...

Like others are saying, this is a bad precedent to set. So if I don't like someone, I just corner them in a dark alley, threaten I'm going to kill them, and as soon as they raise their fist, I draw and kill them?

Am I missing something here?


yes you are missing something, you can't shoot someone for raising their fist. the only way a jury will find you not guilty is if you have a reasonable aprehension for your life, or for serious bodily injury.

I went to school out in calfornia and IIRC out there serious bodily injury meant serious disfigurement, possible organ faillure, limb loss, long term loss of bodily function, serious impairment or some such like that. it is no walk in the park to prove a reasonable fear of something that significant.

IrateShadow: Propain_az: No witnesses described that scenario. Look, just you want to believe that Zimmerman, a very powerful white man, murdered an innocent black baby, doesn't change what happened.

No witnesses have said that it didn't happen, either. You just want to believe that Zimmerman timidly approached Martin and asked him to share his candy. This, of course, throw Martin into a murderous rage that was only calmed when Zimmerman graciously offered Martin his gun, which he used to shoot himself in the chest.

wasn't Zimmerman on the phone when he got out of the car?

tdyak: Tatsuma: Also wasn't Martin supposed to be talking on his cellphone with his girlfriend? It doesn't seem to list a cellphone as one of his possessions.

250+ Comments, and you are the ONLY person that also caught that.

yeah, what about that?

is it possible the cellphone was left at the scene and people didn't know it was his?

Frank N Stein: Why is it that the justice for TrayTray folks literally cannot defend him without either outright lying, using ambiguous/misleading language, or show even show a most basic understanding of law?

Also, plenty of them throw in the race card if their argument is especially weak.

Well, I think the argument is that Zimmerman was racially profiling Martin. I don't think the argument is weak given his history. However, a private citizen profiling another private citizen isn't illegal. It's a non-issue and serves only to further the argument that Zimmerman's state was heightened because he had racially profiled Martin to be suspicious.

However, that argument is easily deconstructed by the fact that Zimmerman also established a pattern of having black friends. You enter into a fight where there's no actual way to establish Zimmerman's state of mind and you have no actual way to establish the degree to which the race of the victim factored into Zimmerman's state of mind. It's a losing argument, I agree.

Blowmonkey: Zimmerman should not have been following Trayvon, he was explicitly told by police to stop. Speculation, but I seriously doubt he would have been this brazen had he been unarmed (Zimmerman). Further, had he been unarmed, I doubt anyone would be dead.

Two lies in that statement.

The poilice didn't tell him anything it was 911 operator. They didn't "explicitly" tell him to stop. They didn't even tell him to stop. They said "you don't have to do that".

tenpoundsofcheese: I don't see a neighborhood watch person like Zimmerman actually picking a fight with a 6'3'' person

The autopsy report lists him as 5'11"

mc6809e:
Martin's girlfriend confirms that it was Martin that first yelled at Zimmerman. Martin had plenty of time to continue to the place where he was staying. Instead he yells at Zimmerman and approaches him. The injuries to Zimmerman are consistent with the idea that he was attacked by Martin.

IIRC, there are witnesses to the effect that there was a period of loud shouting between them. So, there was some sort of confrontation, either directly initiated by Zimmerman, or by Martin as a result of Zimmerman following him. But whatever words were said, no crime had been committed by either one at this point.

The big question is: who threw that first punch? Who escalated the heated confrontation from words to violence?

Why in the world would Zimmerman start a physical confrontation, knowing full well that he had a gun on his person? If circumstances were so bad as to justify it, why didn't he immediately pull out the piece and hold Martin at bay, to wait for the police? Why would he want to get into a physical scuffle and risk losing the run, which could then be used against him? It's for good reason that CCW classes teach people to avoid physical action at all costs, knowing that the presence of that gun pretty much guarantees that the situation will escalate. Zimmerman had every reason to -not- start a fight. And if it's true that Martin also initiated the verbal exchange, then a large degree of the blame rests with him- if we're talking about "avoidable" actions, Martin's actions were the very last ones in that chain of events leading up to the shooting.

SkinnyHead: wingedkat: The most relevant evidence in this whole case is that the kid was running away when Zimmerman got out of the car and chased him.

If a strange guy were following me, then after I started running away got out of his car and started chasing me, I'd take the first chance I got to sit on top of him and bash his skull against the ground. How can Zimmerman act in self-defense if chased the kid when he ran away?

You can't attack someone then claim "self defense" when they fight back.

Following someone is not the same as attacking someone. Following someone is not unlawful. If you get attacked while doing something lawful, you got the right to defend yourself against the attacker.

Was his weapon drawn while following Trayvon? You can assault someone without actually causing harm to them. If his weapon was drawn or he was threatening to harm Trayvon that's assualt and Trayvon would have been well within his rights to defend himself.

as·sault [uh-sawlt] Show IPA
noun
Law . an unlawful physical attack upon another; an attempt or offer to do violence to another, with or without battery, as by holding a stone or club in a threatening manner.

Propain_az: When was he told to "sit in his car and wait" ? Who told him that? Did the person who told him that have any authority?

My understanding is that, when Zman called 911, the operator said not to pursue and to wait for the Police. "Authority?" Maybe not. Good sense? Hell, yeah. Kid's dead, man. He's dead because he wore a hoodie and went to the store to smoke a doob, buy some watermelon ice-tea and some skittles to munch on and some Chuck Norris wannabe plays James Bond, gets in over his head, and winds up having to gun the kid down to, allegedly, save his skin. "Authority" my ass. Are you really going to argue that "a 911 operator has no authority to tell me anything therefore I can shoot this kid if'fn I want"? Is that the society you want to live in? I'm not saying 911 ops are the brightest tools in the shed, Lord knows we get enough articles about their idiocy, but stay in your car, don't go confronting someone you don't know is good advice, especially if you're packing, because, if something goes wrong, that gun's coming out and someone is going to die. The kid was just walking down the street. Even if he was planning on some burglary or vandalism, because there was no reason to think he had anything violent in mind, so what? You saw him, you have a description, cops are on the way, so sit tight, man, he ain't going nowhere. And even if he gets away, so what? It's property, man. It's just money. But make one mistake, which Zman did, and someone's not going home and lives will never be the same.

People with guns should do everything, and I mean everything, they can to avoid any confrontation at any time. This case shows exactly why.

DROxINxTHExWIND: I alone am best: DROxINxTHExWIND: It's a little sad to see a group of people who have such an infantile, underdeveloped sense of right and wrong that instead of relying on their moral compass to determine whether an unarmed boy deserved to die, they fall back on the letter of a law...written by a man who says that the law should not be applied in this case. For those few non-trolls who are trying to honestly debate the evidence, do you seriously believe that a child deserved to die because Florida law makes it legal for Zimmerman to start an altercation and kill a kid when he feels threatened? This shiat is almost unbelievable to me.


/almost

If he physically attacked someone and was slamming his head into the cement, what would you have done in that situation? Please sir, stop trying to bash my brains out.

Naw. I would have stayed in the truck and waited for police...if I were the typs of guy to call them because someone was walking down the street.

This. This whole thing would have turned out much differently if he had just sat and watched from the truck. Or, given that it appears (so far) that he set out on foot to determine where TM went, once he was confronted, had simply said, "I'm a neighborhood watch member, and I would like to know your business in this area? Do you know someone who lives here?".

Unfortunately 1 person is dead and another will never be the same. I do think it will be interesting to see how this plays out in court.

I don't post in these threads much, due to the volatile nature of it and the derp from both sides, but it's just a shame this happened at all.

IronOcelot: I see this ending in no other way than Zimmerman walking away free.
Personally, I think this was a series of bad decisions made by both parties that culminated with the most tragic outcome for one of the people involved.

In some countries, making "bad decisions" that get other people killed has consequences.

Guidette Frankentits: relcec: it doesn't even matter who attacked who first.

I call your wife a dirty whore in a bar, you punch me, I shoot you, should I be allowed to say "I stood my ground!"?

So you know zimmerman insulted Martin in a similiar manner?

You don't understand the difference between punching someoen and punching them repeatedly while they are on the ground?

Or maybe you can admit your analogy is garbage.