SkinnyHead: wingedkat: You can't attack someone then claim "self defense" when they fight back.

Following someone is not the same as attacking someone. Following someone is not unlawful. If you get attacked while doing something lawful, you got the right to defend yourself against the attacker.

YES IT IS, it's a non verbal attack but it's still an attack, and I should be allowed to beat people to death to defend myself! Same with verbal attacks, spam attacks, athsma attacks, and Facebook unfriending attacks! It's exactly this sort of attack on our rights that will leave us no choice but to defend ourselves with riots if Zimmerman isn't killed for "justice" for Trayvon!

/whoops, was that a sarcasm attack?
//oh well, "self defense" at me bro

bulldg4life: frepnog: sorry that the available evidence all supports Zimmerman. but that is in fact what is happening, every singe time new evidence is released.

And yet, there is still no evidence indicating who started the physical confrontation.

except for the wounds on Treyvon's hands indicating that he attacked someone and the someone he attacked having been beat up and had injuries consistent with being beaten up, no.

Do people really believe that a man waiting on police to show up is going to attack a suspicious person, a suspicious person that is actively HIDING from you and then reappears and confronts you?

I mean i realize that there are lots of stupid people, but seriously?

Zim should never have gotten out of his car. Martin should never have been milling about where he probably shouldn't have been. Martin could have identified himself or simply went home. Zim could have simply drove to the store and never bothered to call in a suspicious person report.

None of that really matters. Zim was doing nothing illegal or anything that would have caused Martin to fear anything except possible detainment by police. No evidence that he attacked Martin. No evidence that he was trying to or did initially confront Martin. Martin is dead thru his own stupid actions, unfortunately enough for him.

Sucks but that does seem to be the case.

Mrbogey: If Zimmerman hadn't shot Martin, Martin would be facing assault charges, possibly felony assault.

If Zimmerman hadn't gotten out of his car to follow the person, two people would be alive...nobody would've been arrested...and nobody would know where in the blue bloody f*ck Sanford, Florida is

bulldg4life: Zimmerman very easily could've grabbed Martin's arm in an attempt to subdue him until police arrived, yes?

(This is assuming the gun didn't come out until right before the shot was fired)

and the flip side...

Martin could have just as easily gone for the gun when he was on top of George beating him. Most likely he saw it in the holster and went for it.

And he lost that game of quick draw.

Zimmerman is a patsy. Martin was taken out by Republican Drug runners from Boston. The method of execution is their standard MO

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Guess you missed the part where the FBI could not make a determination as to who the voice belongs to. Don't believe someone that is hawking their own, brand new, voice matching software.

No, but it has been determined who the voice DOESN'T belong to. Zimmerman. Unfortunately, they can't get Martin to provide a voice sample, because he happens to be a little bit dead at the moment.

Please try to keep up.

frepnog: except for the wounds on Treyvon's hands indicating that he attacked someone and the someone he attacked having been beat up and had injuries consistent with being beaten up, no.

Do people really believe that a man waiting on police to show up is going to attack a suspicious person, a suspicious person that is actively HIDING from you and then reappears and confronts you?

Zimmerman grabbing Martin or brandishing his weapon in an attempt to keep Martin from escaping is totally insane.

Does anyone have a link to where the description of martin hiding comes from? Do we get it from a source that isn't Zimmerman?

vegasj: Martin could have just as easily gone for the gun when he was on top of George beating him. Most likely he saw it in the holster and went for it.

If someone had been following me and then got close enough that a physical altercation ensued...AND then I saw a gun? You damn well better go for the gun.

That being said, it still doesn't prove what actually happened 20 seconds before the shot was fired

SkinnyHead: The boy's father should be able to tell his own son's voice better than some experts-for-hire.

Funny how software works. They can find distinctions in every different voice that Mel Blanc did and identify him as the same person, but I could guarantee you that when he was alive, people who had known him all his life wouldn't recognize a new one of his voices.

Nabb1: And there likely won't be any at this point. I'm fairly certain I've seen this movie before...

Well, judging from these threads, as long as people get to call the other side racist...nobody really cares that two lives were ruined and the law is ridiculously stupid.

bulldg4life: Zimmerman grabbing Martin or brandishing his weapon in an attempt to keep Martin from escaping is totally insane.

For a normal person, but you have to remember that Zimmerman really wanted to be a cop. He may have seen this as his opportunity to play the part or to prove himself.

monoski: He is on the police 911 recording being told not to follow Trayvon but he must have continued to follow him or he would not be in proximity to get his ass kicked.

don't add words to make your assumption correct.

He was on the dispatcher 911 recording being told they "didn't need him to follow"... to which George says "ok" & stops huffing heavily... most likely because he stop running around.


"didn't need to do that" & "do not do that" are 2 different things.

as well as the dispatcher giving orders. No one is bound by any law to follow a dispatcher's order... whereas there are laws binding you to follow some police officer's orders.

So again... reach more to make it justify your opinion.

monoski:

He is on the police 911 recording being told not to follow Trayvon but he must have continued to follow him or he would not be in proximity to get his ass kicked.

Really? There's no other way, like an offended Martin returning to confront Zimmerman with "why are you following me?"

How can you initiate a confrontation with someone, make them feel their life is in danger enough to defend themselves, and then yourself claim self defense?

When you are the aggressor, you can't claim self defense...

Like others are saying, this is a bad precedent to set. So if I don't like someone, I just corner them in a dark alley, threaten I'm going to kill them, and as soon as they raise their fist, I draw and kill them?

Am I missing something here?

IrateShadow: Does anyone have a link to where the description of martin hiding comes from? Do we get it from a source that isn't Zimmerman?

Martin's girlfriend has reported that he told her on the phone he was being followed/chased and he decided to stop trying to get away and confront the person. Does not sound like hiding.

Your Boss: Ignored "Your Boss". If you want to completely hide ignored user comments, change the "Show header of ignored comments" option in your user profile.

Yes, those little scratches are sure incriminating.

I've had worse mosquito bites.

IrateShadow: Does anyone have a link to where the description of martin hiding comes from? Do we get it from a source that isn't Zimmerman?

It comes from Fark threads.

Sargun: step one: initiate altercation with teenage boy
step two: shoot him when he fights back
step three: claim self defence

am I missing anything?

Except there is no evidence, literally none, of Zimmerman starting an altercation. There is a difference between an altercation and a confrontation.

He confronted Martin. The evidence all indicated Martin then attacked Zimmerman. Zimmerman has no marks on his hands indicating he hit Martin.

Zimmerman had no business starting something that wound up being finished by a gun. He was told to sit in his car and wait and he damn well should have sat in his car waited. How much mitigation about the struggle that ensued and who actually started the physical confrontation should be considered by a jury, but I seriously question the so-called right to pursue a person who is just walking down the street and then pull a gun on an unarmed person and shoot them dead after a struggle ensues. I don't know if Zimmerman's a "racist" in the classic sense of the word, ie, he hates all persons of a particular persuasion. I do think he stereotyped the kid and, in his mind, labelled him a thug or a punk and therefore dangerous. And, in the end, a kid is dead. To me that's the issue. All he had to do was sit tight and that kid would not have been killed (by Zman at least). Maybe the kid gets smart with the cops after they show up and they wind up capping him, but at least there would be a throw down gun and we could all get on with our business. Damn shame.

mc6809e: monoski:

He is on the police 911 recording being told not to follow Trayvon but he must have continued to follow him or he would not be in proximity to get his ass kicked.

Really? There's no other way, like an offended Martin returning to confront Zimmerman with "why are you following me?"

Would be hard to do if he was still in his car where the 911 operator told him to stay. Remember Zimmerman reported he called 911 from the car.

PC LOAD LETTER: FilmBELOH20: PC LOAD LETTER: FilmBELOH20: PC LOAD LETTER: FilmBELOH20: Whether I agree with his decision or not, Zimmerman got out of the car - which he had every right in the world to do. Period. End of story. As the captain of the local neighborhood watch, many may point out that he had a duty and responsibility to do so.

This has already been covered here by folks who are on neighborhood watches. This is false. As in the opposite is true. Neighborhood watch folks are NOT TO ENGAGE SUBJECTS. Period. That means specifically remaining in your vehicle.

That may be policy, but it's certainly not law. Unless he was trespassing on private property, Zimmerman had every right in the world to be where he was at the time.

As did Martin.

Agreed. So now it comes down to who attacked whom? One person has evidence of injuries consistent with an attacker, one has injuries consistent with a victim. If you knew nothing else of the story, what would your answer be?

So who INITIATED it. Zimmerman followed him, chased him, and then got his ass kicked. Sounds like Martin is a better fighter. Zimmerman lost all claims to SYG by getting out of his vehicle.

We know that Zimmerman was following him at one point when he was talking to the cops. That's all we know unless there are witnesses to Zimmerman "chasing him" down and there aren't any. There is a man who clearly got the worse end of a brawl (mostly one way apparently until the gun came out) who says he had ended his shadowing of Martin and that Martin, not Zimmerman initiated the action.

Remember too that Zimmerman was a member of the local neighborhood watch, it's his job as a volunteer to get out of his vehicle and follow up on suspicious behavior.

bulldg4life: Mrbogey: If Zimmerman hadn't shot Martin, Martin would be facing assault charges, possibly felony assault.

If Zimmerman hadn't gotten out of his car to follow the person, two people would be alive...nobody would've been arrested...and nobody would know where in the blue bloody f*ck Sanford, Florida is

And if I hadn't been walking home, I wouldn't have been robbed. So I guess I should never go out, right?

fawlty: Zimmerman had no business starting something that wound up being finished by a gun. He was told to sit in his car and wait and he damn well should have sat in his car waited. How much mitigation about the struggle that ensued and who actually started the physical confrontation should be considered by a jury, but I seriously question the so-called right to pursue a person who is just walking down the street and then pull a gun on an unarmed person and shoot them dead after a struggle ensues. I don't know if Zimmerman's a "racist" in the classic sense of the word, ie, he hates all persons of a particular persuasion. I do think he stereotyped the kid and, in his mind, labelled him a thug or a punk and therefore dangerous. And, in the end, a kid is dead. To me that's the issue. All he had to do was sit tight and that kid would not have been killed (by Zman at least). Maybe the kid gets smart with the cops after they show up and they wind up capping him, but at least there would be a throw down gun and we could all get on with our business. Damn shame.

When was he told to "sit in his car and wait" ? Who told him that? Did the person who told him that have any authority?

A law that allows people to kill someone and then claim they were defending themselves seems like it could be a problem....

bulldg4life: vegasj: Martin could have just as easily gone for the gun when he was on top of George beating him. Most likely he saw it in the holster and went for it.

If someone had been following me and then got close enough that a physical altercation ensued...AND then I saw a gun? You damn well better go for the gun.

That being said, it still doesn't prove what actually happened 20 seconds before the shot was fired

you are correct, but your timing is off. 20 seconds before the shot Martin was on top of George beating him. Witness's have said this.

Minutes before, would be more like it... but your in 1st sentence there, you are suggesting George got close enough that a physical altercation occurred? Even though it is on tape that Martin hid, George wasn't able to find him?

Nrokreffefp: Why is he marching around confronting people again?

Why are you lying about having knowledge of him confronting Martin?

monoski: tenpoundsofcheese: monoski: kvinesknows: Nabb1: I guess the paramedics who responded at the scene are in on the conspiracy, too, since they reported injuries to Zimmerman's face and head.

funny how usually paramedics would clean a wound and dress it. Nice bandages on his head and interesting how there is no stuck on old dried up blood.

It does not matter if he got beat up. The law says you cannot pick a fight, get your ass kicked then shoot and call it self-defense.

who said he picked a fight?
Proof?

He is on the police 911 recording being told not to follow Trayvon but he must have continued to follow him or he would not be in proximity to get his ass kicked.

Yeah so? What does that have to do with the question?

Who said he picked a fight? Proof?

Step 1. Carry gun.
Step 2. Start a fight with (X).
Step 3. Get your ass handed to yourself by (X).
Step 4. Shoot (X).
Step 5. Blame (X).

IrateShadow: Guidette Frankentits: I call your wife a dirty whore in a bar, you punch me, I shoot you, should I be allowed to say "I stood my ground!"?

You shouldn't but you can with the way the law is written.


I appears so. That's why 'fightin' words' aren't protected speech.


2 grams: The reason zimmerman followed martin was there had been break ins in the comunity, and I thought I heard that in past incidetns the police have shown up late. Zimmerman was going to follow Marten to ensure they didn't "loose" him this time and requested to the dispatcher to have the police call him when they arrived and zimmerman would let them know where they kid was. Zimmerman was going to Walmart, saw the "suspcious" kid and decided as the neighborhood watch captain, he should follow up on it.

I'm not asking you to believe it, but from the beginng of this circus, that was the reason Zimemrman gave for following martin.

Must've missed that. Is it in that 183 pages?

kingoomieiii: And once again this amount of blood looks ridiculous to me. It's a head wound, for christ's sake, allegedly from repeatedly slamming the head against the sidewalk. Almost no blood. Doesn't even look like there's bruising. Again, HEAD WOUND.

What you say is true, provided that there was no chance to do anything before the photos were taken. Give the guy a minute or two to clean up -a trip to the bathroom,perhaps- and this amount of blood becomes quite plausible.

This is why, if you are attacked, you should NEVER make any attempt to clean up before going to the police or hospital.

vegasj: bulldg4life: Zimmerman very easily could've grabbed Martin's arm in an attempt to subdue him until police arrived, yes?

(This is assuming the gun didn't come out until right before the shot was fired)

and the flip side...

Martin could have just as easily gone for the gun when he was on top of George beating him. Most likely he saw it in the holster and went for it.

And he lost that game of quick draw.

Zimmerman had orignally stated the gun came out while Martin was ontop of him. Martin saw that zimmer had a holstered gun and said "You're going to die tonight" and started to beat hi head on the ground. Zimmerman claimed it was then that he drew the weapon and fired at his chest.

least that's what I remeber hearing early on.

DROxINxTHExWIND: "Well officer, my son was left in a morgue for three days without me being notified...but I'm sure you and Zimmerman have great reasons for everything you did."

His dad was notified the next morning.

/I read the whole, tired case.
//I don't believe the kid should have been shot.
///Fraking mess

If I killed someone in self defense i'd make sure to be well injured by the time the cops got there. It's the smart thing to do.

Mikey1969: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Guess you missed the part where the FBI could not make a determination as to who the voice belongs to. Don't believe someone that is hawking their own, brand new, voice matching software.

No, but it has been determined who the voice DOESN'T belong to. Zimmerman.


No it hasn't.

bulldg4life: frepnog: except for the wounds on Treyvon's hands indicating that he attacked someone and the someone he attacked having been beat up and had injuries consistent with being beaten up, no.

Do people really believe that a man waiting on police to show up is going to attack a suspicious person, a suspicious person that is actively HIDING from you and then reappears and confronts you?

Zimmerman grabbing Martin or brandishing his weapon in an attempt to keep Martin from escaping is totally insane.

pretty much, since there is ZERO evidence to support either claim.

even Treyvon's girl says Martin yelled at Zimmerman first.

monoski: kvinesknows: Nabb1: I guess the paramedics who responded at the scene are in on the conspiracy, too, since they reported injuries to Zimmerman's face and head.

funny how usually paramedics would clean a wound and dress it. Nice bandages on his head and interesting how there is no stuck on old dried up blood.

It does not matter if he got beat up. The law says you cannot pick a fight, get your ass kicked then shoot and call it self-defense.

That is not what the law says at all.

DROxINxTHExWIND: It's a little sad to see a group of people who have such an infantile, underdeveloped sense of right and wrong that instead of relying on their moral compass to determine whether an unarmed boy deserved to die, they fall back on the letter of a law...written by a man who says that the law should not be applied in this case. For those few non-trolls who are trying to honestly debate the evidence, do you seriously believe that a child deserved to die because Florida law makes it legal for Zimmerman to start an altercation and kill a kid when he feels threatened? This shiat is almost unbelievable to me.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see the guy walk but the law being what it is he probably will and legally that will be the right thing. If for all of this the law stays on the books unchanged, then the whole affair will have been a lost opportunity.

This is getting ridiculous.

Zimmerman should not have been following Trayvon, he was explicitly told by police to stop. Speculation, but I seriously doubt he would have been this brazen had he been unarmed (Zimmerman). Further, had he been unarmed, I doubt anyone would be dead.

The fact that this boy is dead as a direct result of Zimmerman's actions leads me to conclude that Zimmerman is responsible for this boy's death. Deciding the criminality of the incident requres further evidence than I have access to, but I have no doubt that the killing was not justifiable homicide, regardless of how ridiculously worded Florida law may be.

If you intentionally provoke someone, you can't shoot them because they feel threatened by you and are acting accordingly to protect themselves.

monoski: kvinesknows: Nabb1: I guess the paramedics who responded at the scene are in on the conspiracy, too, since they reported injuries to Zimmerman's face and head.

funny how usually paramedics would clean a wound and dress it. Nice bandages on his head and interesting how there is no stuck on old dried up blood.

It does not matter if he got beat up. The law says you cannot pick a fight, get your ass kicked then shoot and call it self-defense.

And the evidence that he started the fight is...

Walking up to Martin is not starting a fight.

tenpoundsofcheese: monoski: tenpoundsofcheese: monoski: kvinesknows: Nabb1: I guess the paramedics who responded at the scene are in on the conspiracy, too, since they reported injuries to Zimmerman's face and head.

funny how usually paramedics would clean a wound and dress it. Nice bandages on his head and interesting how there is no stuck on old dried up blood.

It does not matter if he got beat up. The law says you cannot pick a fight, get your ass kicked then shoot and call it self-defense.

who said he picked a fight?
Proof?

He is on the police 911 recording being told not to follow Trayvon but he must have continued to follow him or he would not be in proximity to get his ass kicked.

Yeah so? What does that have to do with the question?

Who said he picked a fight? Proof?

I see where you are going and I will agree that picked a fight was a bad choice of words but Zimmerman called 911 from his car and was told not to follow (Martin) him, we know he disregarded that and left his car to continue following this is where he crossed the legal line (in my eyes) whether he left to start a confrontation or not.

Guidette Frankentits SmartestFunniest 2012-05-18 01:55:44 PM


relcec: it doesn't even matter who attacked who first.

I call your wife a dirty whore in a bar, you punch me, I shoot you, should I be allowed to say "I stood my ground!"?

even in Florida you'd be convicted of manslaughter if not murder for that.
and even if you never called my wife a dirty whore. even if I just punched you in the face because I don't like the way you smell.

now see if you can find where zimmerman's attorney would argue your hypothetical incident and the real one can be distinguished. I know you can do it.

exactly, it would be exceedingly difficult to argue a punch could cause someone to have a reasonable fear for serious bodily injury. With those injuries, zimmerman's attorney at least will have a fair opportunity to convince the jury he had a reasonable fear that he was receiving/about to receive serious bodily.

that's all this case hinges on. it has nothing to do with who chased who, what the dispatcher said, who started the actual fight, or whether florida requires Zimmerman to run away before using lethal force because everyone agrees Martin was on top of Zimmerman and had him under control.

Blowmonkey: This is getting ridiculous.

Zimmerman should not have been following Trayvon, he was explicitly told by police to stop. Speculation, but I seriously doubt he would have been this brazen had he been unarmed (Zimmerman). Further, had he been unarmed, I doubt anyone would be dead.

The fact that this boy is dead as a direct result of Zimmerman's actions leads me to conclude that Zimmerman is responsible for this boy's death. Deciding the criminality of the incident requres further evidence than I have access to, but I have no doubt that the killing was not justifiable homicide, regardless of how ridiculously worded Florida law may be.

If you intentionally provoke someone, you can't shoot them because they feel threatened by you and are acting accordingly to protect themselves.

When did the police tell Zimmerman to stop following Martin? 911 Operators ARE NOT POLICE! They have no authority over anybody. Also, can provide proof that Martin was provoked?

DROxINxTHExWIND: It's a little sad to see a group of people who have such an infantile, underdeveloped sense of right and wrong that instead of relying on their moral compass to determine whether an unarmed boy deserved to die, they fall back on the letter of a law...written by a man who says that the law should not be applied in this case. For those few non-trolls who are trying to honestly debate the evidence, do you seriously believe that a child deserved to die because Florida law makes it legal for Zimmerman to start an altercation and kill a kid when he feels threatened? This shiat is almost unbelievable to me.


/almost

If he physically attacked someone and was slamming his head into the cement, what would you have done in that situation? Please sir, stop trying to bash my brains out.

monoski: tenpoundsofcheese: monoski: tenpoundsofcheese: monoski: kvinesknows: Nabb1: I guess the paramedics who responded at the scene are in on the conspiracy, too, since they reported injuries to Zimmerman's face and head.

funny how usually paramedics would clean a wound and dress it. Nice bandages on his head and interesting how there is no stuck on old dried up blood.

It does not matter if he got beat up. The law says you cannot pick a fight, get your ass kicked then shoot and call it self-defense.

who said he picked a fight?
Proof?

He is on the police 911 recording being told not to follow Trayvon but he must have continued to follow him or he would not be in proximity to get his ass kicked.

Yeah so? What does that have to do with the question?

Who said he picked a fight? Proof?

I see where you are going and I will agree that picked a fight was a bad choice of words but Zimmerman called 911 from his car and was told not to follow (Martin) him, we know he disregarded that and left his car to continue following this is where he crossed the legal line (in my eyes) whether he left to start a confrontation or not.

What legal line did he cross? 911 Operators have no authority over ANYBODY. They are not Police Officers, and you know this.

Guidette Frankentits: call your wife a dirty whore in a bar, you punch me, I shoot you, should I be allowed to say "I stood my ground!"?

Possibly. It's not illegal to call someone a dirty whore; it is illegal to punch someone.

Calling someone names doesn't represent an immediate or attenuated threat to their life.

Punching someone can be an immediate threat, and is very easily attenuated into a threat to their life. It's a direct, overt act of violence with an extremely high chance of continuing and escalating violence that is a threat to your life.

If I call a name, you punch me, I go back to my chair, get my gun and shoot you, that's murder. If you hit me and I draw my gun and you are moving towards me for another swing, and I shoot, that's self-defense.
In short, I can say what I want, you cannot hit whomever you want.

serpent_sky: Theaetetus: Yeah... That's why it made more sense if those photos were supposedly the next day - he could've showered and changed clothing first.

but then, if that were the case, the trickles from what looks like two small gashes would not be there.

I don't want to sound like a kooky conspiracy theorist, but something is really not right with these photos. As you also noted, there is a lack of bruising on his nose and head. I once fell backwards and hit my head on a step, and ended up, rather quickly, with a baseball sized lump and I assume it was quite bruised, but I couldn't tell because it was under my hair.
I once fell on my face, tripped playing basketball. Full face plant on the concrete with no support from my arms / hands. Braces were knocked off my upper teeth and my nose was badly broken.
1. No bruising
2. Blood all over the ground, not a drop on my shirt

Last year I stood up hard into a LCD TV hanging on the front of a friends RV. The corner dug very deep into my head. Much to my surprise, not that much blood and no lump either. I have a scar now where hair will never grow.