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(Maclean's)   Woman's Center = Groundbreaking. Men's Center = "A room with a PS3 and a bunch of douche bags playing video games"   (www2.macleans.ca) divider line 221
    More: Stupid, sexisms, groundbreakings, valid argument, video games, Keenan Midgley  
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7539 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 May 2012 at 12:35 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-18 02:29:06 AM
next week, i wouldnt be surprised in the least bit if obama came out against the idea of a mens center
 
2012-05-18 02:30:24 AM

WhippingBoy: our issues are irrelevant and not worthy of discussion. We should, as we've been told to most of our lives, "man up" and silently endure until the breaking point, when we stick a loaded gun in our mouths and blow our brains out.


Strawmen can't buy handguns in Canada.

omeganuepsilon: A woman's center's purpose is to help individuals with their problems. That's it. It creates a place where individual women can go to seek help. It caters to them specifically, because, by and large, both genders are more comfortable with people that they can identify with, be it who's lending aid, or the kinship of people having the same problems.


You've clearly never been to a women's center and have absolutely zero idea of what they do. They have libraries of feminist books and do advocacy about gender issues in a general sense. For example, they might work on reproductive health or informing the student body about safer sex and consent issues. All of this is positive for both men and women, and men can totally get involved in these issues. As I said upthread, my own opinion is that given the general gender issues advocacy women's centers do, they should be renamed and be inclusive. There's no reason why anti-sexual assault advocacy on campus should be done primarily under a "women's" label, for example.
 
2012-05-18 02:33:21 AM

bobbette: valar_morghulis: He doesn't speak for me; nor was he elected to speak on behalf of straight, white men everywhere. Just saying.

He isn't speaking for you. What he's doing is speaking to you. I'd recommend giving the link a read. I've seen dozens of straight, white guys link it on various corners of the internet in the past couple days.


The article you link talks about what privilege is. It says nothing about why or how it should matter, and is therefore useless. The article is written with the assumption that people who have it reject the very idea, and that the problem is that they don't understand it. The rejection is usually experience based, not intellectual, and so explaining it again in more condescending terms is not going to help.

What people actually reject is not the concept of privilege, but the concurrent idea that someone must have a certain minimum amount of unearned suffering in order to have anything valuable to say on political topics. If your visceral response to the previous statement is to dismiss it because a middle-class straight white man can't possibly understand, then you are directly demonstrating the problem.
 
2012-05-18 02:34:55 AM

evil saltine: bobbette: Actually, no. I'm referring to specific attacks. The comments about her cleavage were from a male NDP MLA, the questions about her parenting were from (male) radio host Bill Good.

If a man wore something as revealing in Parliament, you wouldn't expect people to comment about it?


Sure, if it was inappropriate for the workplace. However, standards of business dress and other formal wear for women are wide-ranging, and the Premier was in business dress and not tarted up like a stripper, which you can clearly see in the article I linked.

Okay everybody! I'm out for the night so you can send all green arrows c/o my management company Going To Sleep Now So Zero Farks Given re: Continuation of this Conversation
 
2012-05-18 02:35:25 AM

bobbette: Strawmen can't buy handguns in Canada.


Brusque dismissal of the issue of very high suicide rates amongst men, duly noted.
 
2012-05-18 02:38:31 AM

JPINFV: ake you rage?


I love the comments that are basically, "Adds on torrent sites? I use AdBlock because I'm a geek."

Actually, I think it would be an interesting experiment to have scantily clad men either at some convention booth or in the ads just to see what the response is. Of course I'm pretty sure the response is going to be pretty much the same. Instead of "Whaa, scantily clad women makes me feel objectified" it's going to be "Appealing to me base



Bingo. These people are extremely selective about their narrative. Take the above video of sexist Christmas songs: "All I want for Christmas is You". What would her narrative be if a man made this song? That it objectifies women.
 
2012-05-18 02:46:24 AM

valar_morghulis: bobbette: valar_morghulis: He doesn't speak for me; nor was he elected to speak on behalf of straight, white men everywhere. Just saying.

He isn't speaking for you. What he's doing is speaking to you. I'd recommend giving the link a read. I've seen dozens of straight, white guys link it on various corners of the internet in the past couple days.

Nothing he says stuck me as particularly deep; he framed the ubiquitous "straight white men have it easier" in the context of an MMO. Cleverly written and pandering to nerds, sure.

I respect his opinion, of course; my own life experiences as a straight white man fly in the face of the charmed ("Easy") life he claims we lead. Am I an outlier? Perhaps; perhaps not. Broad brushstrokes annoy me all the same.


And yet nothing he said indicated that that straight white males have it "easy". In fact he said quite the opposite. His point was that, all thing being equal, straight white males have it easier.

That is to say that if you had been born at the same time, to the same parents, in the same place, with the same family, and under the same conditions you would have had it even more difficult; if you had also been a female, minority, homosexual, transgendered, or disabled person.

Why is this so hard to understand?
 
2012-05-18 02:47:49 AM

bobbette: You've clearly never been to a women's center and have absolutely zero idea of what they do. They have libraries of feminist books and do advocacy about gender issues in a general sense. For example, they might work on reproductive health or informing the student body about safer sex and consent issues. All of this is positive for both men and women, and men can totally get involved in these issues.


Maybe your feminist center deals only in feminism and sex ed, but that's not true for all women's centers.

http://www.twcwaukesha.org/ServicesMain.html

http://www.womenspace.org/services.htm

http://www.thewomenscentersc.com/services.php

bobbette: There's no reason why anti-sexual assault advocacy on campus should be done primarily under a "women's" label, for example.


Because women will totally open up in a room full of guys?

You missed a lot apparently, such as:

omeganuepsilon: It's no different than a general tendency for guys to observe the piss test of other guys, and females to observe females, or any other patient care facility where gender is an issue. It's all about the needs of the individual. Individual men do not have this kind of service in most places.


Not sure if you didn't read, or just willfully ignored all that to jump straight to the above ad hominem on purpose.
 
2012-05-18 02:49:48 AM

Metraxis: The article you link talks about what privilege is.


No it doesn't. In fact it makes a point and works to precludes the word "privilege" or any attempt to define that word.
 
2012-05-18 02:49:51 AM

bobbette: It's not so much extra advantages for men as it is additional ground you have to make up, still, if you're a woman, because assumptions and standards and stereotypes about gender work against you in a variety of ways.


Bullshiat
Bullshiat

Decades ago? Sure. the 60's and 70's? Certainly. Today? No. Absolutely not. The entire 'you're a straight white guy you've got it easy' tact is a massive load of bullshiat. You can cite statistics that show a percentage correlation between poverty and race or career success and gender, but that is farking meaningless garble to a poor white kid with dirt poor lazy abusive parents growing up in a trailer in a hillbilly nothing town. If you're born sucking on a platinum pacifier it doesn't matter what farking race or gender you are. The reverse is also true and I'm sick as shiat of hearing otherwise.
 
2012-05-18 02:52:42 AM

spamdog: bobbette: Strawmen can't buy handguns in Canada.

Brusque dismissal of the issue of very high suicide rates amongst men, duly noted.


No. Brusque dismissal of your idiotic strawman argument, yes.
As I said continually throughout this thread, I absolutely support discussing gender issues that relate to men.
 
2012-05-18 02:52:55 AM

evil saltine: bobbette: Actually, no. I'm referring to specific attacks. The comments about her cleavage were from a male NDP MLA, the questions about her parenting were from (male) radio host Bill Good.

If a man wore something as revealing in Parliament, you wouldn't expect people to comment about it?


Ew, yes.
 
2012-05-18 02:53:41 AM

Philbb: Why is this so hard to understand?


It's quite easy to understand. It's also quite easy to realize that it's completely wrong. It works both ways. There are stresses and social obligations and expectations that cut both ways whether you're white or black, or have a y chromosome or not.
 
2012-05-18 02:54:27 AM

bobbette: No. Brusque dismissal of your idiotic strawman argument, yes.


It wasn't my argument.
I'm just saying, you blew him off.

To be fair, maybe you weren't aware that men commit suicide at about 10x the rate of women.
 
2012-05-18 02:57:20 AM

bobbette: Sure, if it was inappropriate for the workplace. However, standards of business dress and other formal wear for women are wide-ranging, and the Premier was in business dress and not tarted up like a stripper, which you can clearly see in the article I linked


So I guess the answer is business suits only for women, and not allow that range. It's like when my female classmates complain about "having" to wear heals on rotations or wearing pantyhose with skirts or dresses. My answer is always, "Wear flats" or "Wear a pants suit." Women get options, unlike men, but women are upset that the actually get said options.

/I still don't see the point of a tie, but I don't get the option of not wearing a tie.
 
2012-05-18 03:00:09 AM

Warlordtrooper: I see no problem with this. Why can't men have a men center?


Because you need to pay attention to meeeeeeeeeee!
 
2012-05-18 03:02:35 AM

kasmel: Decades ago? Sure. the 60's and 70's? Certainly. Today? No. Absolutely not. The entire 'you're a straight white guy you've got it easy' tact is a massive load of bullshiat. You can cite statistics that show a percentage correlation between poverty and race or career success and gender, but that is farking meaningless garble to a poor white kid with dirt poor lazy abusive parents growing up in a trailer in a hillbilly nothing town. If you're born sucking on a platinum pacifier it doesn't matter what farking race or gender you are. The reverse is also true and I'm sick as shiat of hearing otherwise.


And you still miss the point by a country mile.

If you are a poor white kid with dirt poor lazy abusive parents growing up in a trailer in a hillbilly nothing town and male you have a leg up on being a poor white kid with dirt poor lazy abusive parents growing up in a trailer in a hillbilly nothing town who is female. Or a homosexual/minority male, or even a white female.

If you are born sucking on a platinum pacifier and a white male, then you have a leg up on being born sucking on a platinum pacifier who is female. Or a homosexual/minority male, or even a white female.
 
2012-05-18 03:05:08 AM

spamdog: bobbette: No. Brusque dismissal of your idiotic strawman argument, yes.

It wasn't my argument.
I'm just saying, you blew him off.

To be fair, maybe you weren't aware that men commit suicide at about 10x the rate of women.


Not only am I aware of it, I've lived it personally. So I'm going to respond to that with "Go Fark yourself" because it's about the level of response merited by your employment of that argument.
 
2012-05-18 03:08:50 AM

Philbb: If you are


This is the phrase that rubs me the wrong way. "If I am"?

Shouldn't the problem of discrimination be put on those who actually discriminate, rather than implicating people by the circumstances of their very existence?
 
2012-05-18 03:11:36 AM

bobbette: Not only am I aware of it, I've lived it personally. So I'm going to respond to that with "Go Fark yourself" because it's about the level of response merited by your employment of that argument.


Duly noted, and favourited accordingly. By thine own measure be judged.
 
2012-05-18 03:11:54 AM

Philbb: kasmel: Decades ago? Sure. the 60's and 70's? Certainly. Today? No. Absolutely not. The entire 'you're a straight white guy you've got it easy' tact is a massive load of bullshiat. You can cite statistics that show a percentage correlation between poverty and race or career success and gender, but that is farking meaningless garble to a poor white kid with dirt poor lazy abusive parents growing up in a trailer in a hillbilly nothing town. If you're born sucking on a platinum pacifier it doesn't matter what farking race or gender you are. The reverse is also true and I'm sick as shiat of hearing otherwise.

And you still miss the point by a country mile.

If you are a poor white kid with dirt poor lazy abusive parents growing up in a trailer in a hillbilly nothing town and male you have a leg up on being a poor white kid with dirt poor lazy abusive parents growing up in a trailer in a hillbilly nothing town who is female. Or a homosexual/minority male, or even a white female.

If you are born sucking on a platinum pacifier and a white male, then you have a leg up on being born sucking on a platinum pacifier who is female. Or a homosexual/minority male, or even a white female.


May I ask?

Are you employed?

Are you male?

Are you white?

Do you make more or less than the average working female?
 
2012-05-18 03:16:43 AM
Men deserve no support systems, as their issues are not as severe as other groups.

Therefore, Diabetics deserve no support systems, as their issues are not as severe as other patients.

Just like starving, hungry, homeless Canadians deserve no support systems, as their issues are not as severe as starving, hungry, homeless Africans.

The guy with Strep throat doesn't need those antibiotics, as there's already someone in the room with a broken limb.

Uh, news-flash, EVERYBODY has problems. EVERYBODY needs support, and to single out one group over another as being less worthy and deserving of support when it is respectfully asked for is just INHUMAN.


Christ, I'm a gay indian, and even I can see the need for a space where even ordinary, unremarkable men can take off the socially-mandated mask of masculinity, and discuss the reasons for such a thing to exist, not to mention coping with the overwhelming pressure to conform to pre-existing notions of "What it means to be a real MAN"
 
2012-05-18 03:18:02 AM

RoyBatty: Do you make more or less than the average working female?


Does it matter if someone is making more than the average working female if they are also making more than the average working male?

/Push poll much?
//Wage differences are more than just sexism, but that will be ignored anyways because it doesn't fit the "Men are evil" stereotype.
 
2012-05-18 03:23:12 AM

RoyBatty: Philbb: kasmel: Decades ago? Sure. the 60's and 70's? Certainly. Today? No. Absolutely not. The entire 'you're a straight white guy you've got it easy' tact is a massive load of bullshiat. You can cite statistics that show a percentage correlation between poverty and race or career success and gender, but that is farking meaningless garble to a poor white kid with dirt poor lazy abusive parents growing up in a trailer in a hillbilly nothing town. If you're born sucking on a platinum pacifier it doesn't matter what farking race or gender you are. The reverse is also true and I'm sick as shiat of hearing otherwise.

And you still miss the point by a country mile.

If you are a poor white kid with dirt poor lazy abusive parents growing up in a trailer in a hillbilly nothing town and male you have a leg up on being a poor white kid with dirt poor lazy abusive parents growing up in a trailer in a hillbilly nothing town who is female. Or a homosexual/minority male, or even a white female.

If you are born sucking on a platinum pacifier and a white male, then you have a leg up on being born sucking on a platinum pacifier who is female. Or a homosexual/minority male, or even a white female.

May I ask?

Are you employed?

Are you male?

Are you white?

Do you make more or less than the average working female?


Oh, stop it.

All these observations and generalizations only work IN GENERAL; in a one to one situation, it all comes down to cases. For instance, your white-trash boy is doomed to a life of poverty and lost opportunity, compared to a wealthy black kid whose dad is a Manhattan tax attorney; but IN GENERAL white kids have it better than black kids in most cases. A white-trash boy may or may not have a better chance than a white-trash girl; the girl is going to do better in school, I can tell you that right now, but get less encouragement afterward. IN GENERAL the boy's got better chances, but the girl has better opportunities IN GENERAL if she gets out of her mining town. Both of them will do better than the black kid in their high school class IF they all stay in that mining town; but if they all were to leave, the white boy would have fewer options than either the girl or the black kid: There are fewer organizations to help poor white males find work, get schooling, get housing and otherwise help themselves than there are for either blacks or women.

There is no National Association for the Advancement of White Trash Kids, after all.

So there is white-on-white racism if you want to call it that (or classism if you don't); and there is racism; but IN GENERAL white males do have it better, with the proviso that money, education, and connections are beginning to trump skin color and gender.
 
2012-05-18 03:28:46 AM

Gyrfalcon: Oh, stop it.All these observations and generalizations only work IN GENERAL


That was actually my point exactly.

JPINFV: RoyBatty: Do you make more or less than the average working female?

Does it matter if someone is making more than the average working female if they are also making more than the average working male?

/Push poll much?
//Wage differences are more than just sexism, but that will be ignored anyways because it doesn't fit the "Men are evil" stereotype.


If you are so worried about privilege, what are you doing to reduce your own!?

What are your many privileges? White? Male? What else?

How are you reducing your own privilege, which let's face it, is best measured as annual wage differences. And if you are not reducing your own privilege relative to the average woman, why not?

You in specific are more privileged than the average woman, and perhaps the average man. What are you in specific doing about that?
 
2012-05-18 03:30:55 AM

valar_morghulis: Don't be silly. Feminism empowered women, gave them a voice, and served as a cause around which women everywhere could rally against injustice towards the fairer sex.


That's not exactly true. Women are more empowered now than they were 300 years ago, but there's been rises and falls in women's rights and power throughout history. Hell, the Vikings were matriarchy of sorts with property being the woman's thing and women having the power to divorce a man because "he showed his hairy chest too much" and fines of an ounce of gold per kiss in the event of unwanted kissing. Equality isn't exactly a new idea.

Feminism is just a putrid stew of man hate masquerading as something grander than it is. At least, all the books I was handed as overview were pretty much 100s of pages of "You're evil if you have a penis and wonderful if you don't." Maybe my teacher just picked the wrong feminists.
 
2012-05-18 03:32:07 AM

RoyBatty: JPINFV: RoyBatty: Do you make more or less than the average working female?Does it matter if someone is making more than the average working female if they are also making more than the average working male?/Push poll much?//Wage differences are more than just sexism, but that will be ignored anyways because it doesn't fit the "Men are evil" stereotype.If you are so worried about privilege, what are you doing to reduce your own!?What are your many privileges? White? Male? What else?How are you reducing your own privilege, which let's face it, is best measured as annual wage differences. And if you are not reducing your own privilege relative to the average woman, why not?You in specific are more privileged than the average woman, and perhaps the average man. What are you in specific doing about that?


Oh crap, total fail.

That was actually all meant for Philbb.

I don't understand how men, berating other men about they perceive as average male privilege relative to average female privilege can be doing anything other than donating the difference in their salary each year to a variety of charities and causes.

And if they aren't, I am genuinely curious to know how they justify that, and my guess is that *that* argument will contain the context of "specific" versus "general".
 
2012-05-18 03:35:28 AM

doglover: At least, all the books I was handed as overview were pretty much 100s of pages of "You're evil if you have a penis and wonderful if you don't." Maybe my teacher just picked the wrong feminists.


That element has always been there, but feminism wasn't as skewed as it is now.

Ironically or perhaps obviously, it's been traced to the defeat of the ERA in the 90s which radicalized a huge group of feminists turning feminism sociopathic.
 
2012-05-18 03:42:47 AM
Feminists believe women are people, too.

Radical feminists believe men aren't.

Radical feminists are not striving for equality. They would be perfectly happy with the complete elimination of all men. Yes, I know they haven't exactly thought their brilliant plan through. Were you expecting intelligence from them?
 
2012-05-18 03:43:12 AM

SirMadness: Just like starving, hungry, homeless Canadians deserve no support systems, as their issues are not as severe as starving, hungry, homeless Africans.


I was thinking about using that one. Bravo.
/excellent post in all
 
2012-05-18 03:43:38 AM

RoyBatty: Oh crap, total fail.

That was actually all meant for Philbb.

I don't understand how men, berating other men about they perceive as average male privilege relative to average female privilege can be doing anything other than donating the difference in their salary each year to a variety of charities and causes.

And if they aren't, I am genuinely curious to know how they justify that, and my guess is that *that* argument will contain the context of "specific" versus "general".


Yea, I realized after your response that you were playing devil's advocate and not seriously pushing the opinion as your own.
 
2012-05-18 03:46:37 AM

Gyrfalcon: Oh, stop it.

All these observations and generalizations only work IN GENERAL . . .


I'm glad you posted this. One of the problems with the "easy mode" argument (and many other arguments for and against "privilege") is that they assume averages apply to individuals. Being born straight, while and male might, on average, give one an easier life (though how much easier is hard to say unless he literally IS the average), but that doesn't mean that any individual straight, white male will see any of that (nor that, say, a gay, Native American female won't see much more than average). And that's not talking about outliers. I doubt that, for example, in terms of wages, the average gay, native American female is below the second standard deviation of a straight white male. In the same way, for example, not every woman is going to work for a corporation that discriminates against her or pays her less for the same job, nor is every man going to avoid any discrimination based on his gender.

It is possible, even if it's not average, that her "mode" is easier than his, for no reason other than their respective genders - among other things, and thus the 'come on, dude, you're straight and white, you got it easy' falls apart (even if, on average, it might be true).

Fixing systemic discrimination problems, where they exist, is good. Assigning the average attributes of a group to an individual is bad, and should rightly irritate those who are targeted by such assumptions.
 
2012-05-18 03:47:20 AM
I'm with Charlie Brooker. The media ruined our lives.

"Isn't life fantastic. You've got the looks, the clothes, the money. You are living the dream, my friend ... except you're not, are you?"
 
2012-05-18 03:50:34 AM
Gyrfalcon 2012-05-18 12:54:16 AM

What's wrong with a Men's Center? And what's wrong if they want it to be a room with a fridge and a pool or foosball table and some video games? Hell, they can hang a "NO GURLS ALOUD" sign on the door for all I care.

Why do feminists have to give the rest of us women a bad name by hating on men all the time? I think this is a great thing.

GO MEN!

/woman here, btw
//all for men's rights
///just don't call me "babe"


U got it sugartits.Now,could ya fetch me a brew and a sandwich and stop with the yakkity allready?


i kid i kid...really.
I love women
 
2012-05-18 03:50:41 AM

telaran: Assigning the average attributes of a group to an individual is bad


Ding Ding Ding!

We have a winner!

That is just what bigotry or prejudice is, and a LOT of supposed liberals(especially on fark) do it.
 
2012-05-18 03:54:04 AM

RoyBatty: Philbb: kasmel: Decades ago? Sure. the 60's and 70's? Certainly. Today? No. Absolutely not. The entire 'you're a straight white guy you've got it easy' tact is a massive load of bullshiat. You can cite statistics that show a percentage correlation between poverty and race or career success and gender, but that is farking meaningless garble to a poor white kid with dirt poor lazy abusive parents growing up in a trailer in a hillbilly nothing town. If you're born sucking on a platinum pacifier it doesn't matter what farking race or gender you are. The reverse is also true and I'm sick as shiat of hearing otherwise.

And you still miss the point by a country mile.

If you are a poor white kid with dirt poor lazy abusive parents growing up in a trailer in a hillbilly nothing town and male you have a leg up on being a poor white kid with dirt poor lazy abusive parents growing up in a trailer in a hillbilly nothing town who is female. Or a homosexual/minority male, or even a white female.

If you are born sucking on a platinum pacifier and a white male, then you have a leg up on being born sucking on a platinum pacifier who is female. Or a homosexual/minority male, or even a white female.

May I ask?

Are you employed?

Are you male?

Are you white?

Do you make more or less than the average working female?


I am currently self-employed.
I am white.
I am male.
Not asked but answered (I am straight)
Comparing my average income to "the average working female" is disingenuous. You must first control for her "circumstance of birth" to compare it to mine. You must then compare her race/sexuality/familial status(financial, stability, educational opportunities, etc...)/ as well many other factors to compare our earning potential.
 
2012-05-18 04:00:40 AM

thisispete: "Isn't life fantastic. You've got the looks, the clothes, the money. You are living the dream, my friend ... except you're not, are you?"


Wow, that was interesting and terrific. Thank you. It actually fits tonight's Blade Runner thread too as it describes one reason why a new Blade Runner sequel could never look like the old Blade Runner.
 
2012-05-18 04:02:36 AM
The basic point being made from bobbette's link - Straight white male: the lowest difficulty setting there is.

Is that, no matter how bad a straight white male has it ... being a non-straight non-white non-male in the same exact circumstances would be worse.
 
2012-05-18 04:05:45 AM

Philbb: Comparing my average income to "the average working female" is disingenuous. You must first control for her "circumstance of birth" to compare it to mine. You must then compare her race/sexuality/familial status(financial, stability, educational opportunities, etc...)/ as well many other factors to compare our earning potential.


Bingo. Thank you. You may now read the rest of the thread.

You are concerned about generalities (male privilege vs. female privilege) but when it comes to your wallet, you suddenly want to talk about specifics.

That's not a logical or coherent argument.

If you believe male privilege exists and is unfair, and that women suffer because of it, it is incumbent on you to become part of the solution, and not benefit from an evil, cruel, unfair, exploitative, male patriarchal, hegemonic system.

I encourage you to take determine how much you earn over the amount of the average woman in the US and donate that to women's centers.

Otherwise, I really can't take your concern with any degree of credibility on your behalf.

If you aren't doing this you are participating, benefiting, and perpetuating a system of misery and sexual slavery, a rape culture that has kept women trapped for thousands of years.
 
2012-05-18 04:10:18 AM

Philbb: The basic point...


is irrelevant, or worse, support for bigoted statements.
 
2012-05-18 04:10:53 AM

RoyBatty: May I ask?

Are you employed?

Are you male?

Are you white?

Do you make more or less than the average working female?


Being a white male is awesome, let me tell you.

Disadvantaged upbringing, not finishing high school, mental illness, nothing could keep me down because I was white and male. Job after job, no downtime in 25 years of working.

People would see me twitch and talk to myself in the job interview and go: "Meh, he's white. How bad can he be?".

This shiat is awesome. You folks should really try to stock up on as much white maleness as you can, because this will sell out fast. Definately recommended.
 
2012-05-18 04:12:48 AM

telaran: One of the problems with the "easy mode" argument (and many other arguments for and against "privilege") is that they assume averages apply to individuals.


That's right.

So I'm Jewish, I'm short (my kids think I'm tall), I'm 50, I'm a bit pudgier than I want to be, I'm divorced, I've had some heart issues due to a birth defect, I've got two kids, I don't have a house, I live in a very conservative state (and I am not) (to be near my kids btw), please tell me more about my male privilege relative to the the young women, pre-laws, in good health, at a university, complaining about a men's center, no kids, no financial ties, and easy to find partners. Right?

Yeah, so every person has their own privileges and disadvantages. And what do we call it when we ignore the individuals of a group and recast them with our own perceptions of what our myths tell us about the average person of that group? Oh yeah, we call that stereotyping, and it leads to inequality, resentment, warfare, bigotry, and discrimination.
 
2012-05-18 04:14:27 AM
Just get all da blacks you can to join your men's center. Then the next time the feminists raise a stink, just cry racism. Problem solved.
 
2012-05-18 04:22:46 AM

Fubini: a lot of the traditional masculine spaces can be extremely intimidating for the modern man.


Ever been to a fantasy football draft? Hell, I'm sort of a macho dick myself but live fantasy drafts scare the hell out of me. It's like sealing off a room with weatherstripping and piping refined testosterone and beer rage into a confined space.
 
2012-05-18 04:25:19 AM

publikenemy: Just get all da blacks you can to join your men's center. Then the next time the feminists raise a stink, just cry racism. Problem solved.


Feminism ran into some problems in the 70s and 80s when African American woman started complaining about feminism being white women's problems and ignoring their issues.

And poor women also complained about how most feminist issues that made it big time were mainly coming from rich women.

And disabled women got in their kicks too.

In response feminist theory invented Intersectionality: Intersectionality is a methodology of studying "the relationships among multiple dimensions and modalities of social relationships and subject formations" (McCall 2005). The theory suggests-and seeks to examine how-various biological, social and cultural categories such as gender, race, class, ability, and other axes of identity interact on multiple and often simultaneous levels, contributing to systematic social inequality. Intersectionality holds that the classical conceptualizations of oppression within society, such as racism, sexism, homophobia, and religion-based bigotry, do not act independently of one another; instead, these forms of oppression interrelate, creating a system of oppression that reflects the "intersection" of multiple forms of discrimination.

Basically the goal of intersectionality is to put a partial ordering on male patriarchal oppression.

With Intersectionality Theory, feminists now have a slide rule that they can engage in penis fights against each other to determine who is more oppressed by the white male, for example, a rich black straight hard of hearing woman, or a poor white lesbian woman with corns.

It was a revolution!

So for instance intersectionality theory tells us that a black male is oppressed less than a white female unless that is a transgendered black male, than, well, maybe.
 
2012-05-18 04:28:00 AM
I'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned mortality statistics other than suicide.

One of the 'advantages' males face is the prospect of dying earlier and living in poorer health than their female counterparts.. almost as if the lifestyle of the 'lowest difficulty setting' contained enough stressors to make it statistically more dangerous than the lifestyles associated with higher 'difficulty settings'. Strangely enough, as women take on more roles that were traditionally dominated by males, their lifespans start to go down and their health starts to decay.

Another couple 'advantages' males have are vastly higher representation in the most hazardous trades, and a much higher social sense of being expendable. The Vietnam draft has been refered to as "sentenced to death for the crime of being male and 18 in the USA," to say nothing of the millions of men who were drafted in WWI and WWII.

The whole "whose disadvantages are the worst" game is highly subjective at best.
 
2012-05-18 04:53:16 AM

RoyBatty: Philbb: Comparing my average income to "the average working female" is disingenuous. You must first control for her "circumstance of birth" to compare it to mine. You must then compare her race/sexuality/familial status(financial, stability, educational opportunities, etc...)/ as well many other factors to compare our earning potential.

Bingo. Thank you. You may now read the rest of the thread.


How can I make you see your mistake. The fact of the matter is that, I make less than women in my field do. But there are other factors that I have to deal with that cause that. So I'm just not sure what the heck you're trying to say.
 
2012-05-18 05:01:11 AM

RoyBatty: please tell me more about my male privilege relative to the the young women,


Once again, you miss the point. You're white male privilege compared to others who have attributes that you do not have is completely beyond the point. If you, a SWM start at the same place "All Other Things Being Equal" will have a better chance than someone who started at the same exact place with attributes other than SWM.

Once again, just to be clear

"If you, a SWM start at the same place "All Other Things Being Equal" will have a better chance than someone who started at the same exact place with attributes other than SWM."
 
2012-05-18 05:07:46 AM

Philbb: RoyBatty: Philbb: Comparing my average income to "the average working female" is disingenuous. You must first control for her "circumstance of birth" to compare it to mine. You must then compare her race/sexuality/familial status(financial, stability, educational opportunities, etc...)/ as well many other factors to compare our earning potential.

Bingo. Thank you. You may now read the rest of the thread.

How can I make you see your mistake. The fact of the matter is that, I make less than women in my field do. But there are other factors that I have to deal with that cause that. So I'm just not sure what the heck you're trying to say.


Well, you're right, let's take the fact that you make less than women in your field would.

Do you make less than men in your field do?

On average, who makes more the women or the men in your field?

Pardon me, but let's assume it is the men, after all, for every $1.00 a man makes, a woman makes only $0.77 cents.

So still, as a male, you participate in a field in which male privilege gives men on average 23 cents more for every dollar you make more than women. I know you are making less, but we need to look at the group averages. Why? Because male privilege.

Once more, I have to say I believe it is required that you pay that $0.23 for every dollar you make to a woman's center because of your male privilege.

I understand you to say you actually make less than women do, but I just fail to see how that is relevant.

Regardless of how much you make, what you do make is $0.23 more per dollar than you should, simply because you are a man. Why? Because of your male privilege.

So take what you make, multiple by 0.23, and then donate that amount of money to a women's shelter, perhaps to a women's training facility, to train more women to work in your field. Why? Because of your male privilege. (*)

Think of it as buying a carbon offset. We really can't be having this conversation where you tell me I should be concerned about my male privilege until we know you have eliminated your male privilege.

Please, STOP THE RAPE CULTURE that traps women into a hegemonic patriarchal intersectional kyriarchy of cis-gendered favoriting oppressified objectification.

(*) Do Men Really Earn More Than Women?
 
2012-05-18 05:11:33 AM
God forbid university men have a place to go where they can just chill and be men without women coming in and asserting their sexuality on them.
 
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