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(Hot Air)   Cherokee genealogist: We are one of the most most document heavy Native groups and Professor Warren, you have no proof of claim, your documents don't exist (which if true should be easy to find). Just admit you got caught lying   (hotair.com) divider line 216
    More: Obvious, swing vote, lost and found, Legal Insurrection, documentary evidence, genealogists  
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2926 clicks; posted to Politics » on 17 May 2012 at 11:07 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-17 08:36:23 PM

MoeSzyslak: tenpoundsofcheese: Geotpf: I can't believe this stupid shiat might cause Warren to lose.

In any case, I don't think she's handled it well. She should have made a loud, public statement long ago and released any and all records regarding the situation

ummmm, there are NO records. She made it up.

I think he meant records regarding her being hired by the two universities.


oh.

so does that person think there are records that state why the person is hired?

- Check here if you are hiring her so we can have a "woman of color" on the faculty.
 
2012-05-17 08:46:19 PM

Garet Garrett: lennavan: She's a professor of law at Harvard on bankruptcy.

A job she got because she claimed to be native american. It's a pesky situation, not helped by arguments from authority such as this one.


Can you provide a citation for the 2001 bankruptcy article? Is it the Norton one?

I want to read it for myself.
 
2012-05-17 08:51:30 PM
Why are White People always descended from Cherokees? Don't you have any other tribes in the United States? I can name ten or twenty Canadian First Nations I might be descended from, but these Cherohonkies (as they call them) have no imagination.

And they don't listen to Tim McGraw.
 
2012-05-17 08:55:51 PM
HeartBurnKid: What's funny is that nobody has shown yet that (1) she made any attempt to parlay the label into anything or (2) it boosted her career in any measurable way.

Depends on what you mean by "measurable." There is no statistical evidence, but there is a strong circumstantial case that other white people with her credentials don't make it as far as she did.

As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, hiring for law faculty is very weighted towards credentials. Even factoring in outstanding accomplishment, awards, and merit, there's still a strong bias towards graduates of top-3 law schools. Occasionally, a top-ranked graduate of a good law school (ranked 4-14) will land that type of job, if he or she is outstanding in some area.

Warren graduated from Rutgers, a Tier 2 law school ranked 86th in the nation. There's nothing wrong with Rutgers Law, and plenty of excellent lawyers come from Tier 2 schools. However, they don't go on to teach at Harvard.

Maybe Warren is the exception. But, more likely, she benefited from affirmative action.

As to whether she sought benefit from affirmative action, I think that answer is pretty obvious. People not seeking to benefit from affirmative action will occasionally mention their 3% Cherokee heritage as a conversational tidbit, an interesting family story. People who are seeking to benefit from affirmative action will identify themselves professionally as "Native American," which Warren did.
 
2012-05-18 01:20:24 AM
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. She's much more appealing being part Native American.
 
2012-05-18 01:46:17 AM
Every person I ever met that claimed to be Cherokee had a granmother that was an Indian Princess.
 
2012-05-18 01:52:55 AM

brantgoose: Why are White People always descended from Cherokees? Don't you have any other tribes in the United States? I can name ten or twenty Canadian First Nations I might be descended from, but these Cherohonkies (as they call them) have no imagination.

I could be part Micmac, Malecite, Passamaquoddy, Algonquin, Mountain, Cree, Huron, yada, yada, yada.

Nope. It's always the Cherokees. The Roman Catholic Church slash McDonalds of native peoploes.

Personally, if I were claiming to be part Indian, I would prefer the Apache to the Cherokee, especially if I had some scalps to prove it. And how about the Kickapoo, creators of the famous Kickapoo Joy Juice. Wait. Kickapoo. Shiatkicker. I just got that after forty years.

Boy, that was a slow-fuse joke.

It's more fun to say Kickapoo than Shiatkicker any way.


Because Cherokees were more accepting of intermarriage from a much earlier time than other tribes were, both because they were more interested in adopting European culture and technology, and also because Cherokee descent (as they considered it) was matrilineal, kind of like it is for Jews. If you mother is a Jew, you are automatically a Jew, even if you've never been to a synagogue in your life. If you are a woman, then your children will be too. If your father is but your mother is not, you are not, unless you convert (though the most liberal of reform synagogues aren't as firm on this, but traditionally that was the case). The difference was you can't convert to being Cherokee.

So people who were born to Cherokee mothers and white fathers could more fully participate in tribal life than half whites/half natives could in other tribes, (who might exclude them completely) and could offset whatever prejudices people had about their appearance by helping the tribe with things like the english skills they learned from dad. Since such children experienced a ton of prejudice from white people for being 'half-breeds', that gave them an incentive to stick with the tribe, unless they were white enough to pass. Since being able to pass had lots of benefits, and people can easily pass at 1/4 Cherokee, you got a situation going on where white men kept making making babies with Cherokee women (who may or may not already be part white genetically) who would then go out and make babies with white women if they were pale enough, spreading the genes around a whole bunch.

Then, take into account that because this started earlier than most people were intermarrying, this was during a time when white folks were popping out all the babies they possibly could. A 1/4 Cherokee man who was married/common law married to a white woman, might have 8 descendants who were all 1/8th. Now, even if the next generation only has 6 kids each, you now have 48 grandkids who are 1/16th, whereas today that man might only have 4 grandkids. Now, between shrinking family sizes and the very large waves of immigrants who have been coming over, first from Europe and now other places, making the percentage of native people vs any other race smaller, other tribes who started intermarrying later weren't going to change the country's genetics that much.
 
2012-05-18 02:37:55 AM

relcec: Garet Garrett: cameroncrazy1984: Caught lying on what, exactly? What form did she check off "native," again? Oh, right none of them.

Right, those folks at the Harvard Crimson were familiar with her recipe for Mexican Oatmeal Soup from the Pow Wow Chow cookbook, where she was listed as "Elizabeth Warren - Cherokee" and just LEAPT to the conclusion that she was the first native american female faculty member on the Harvard Law faculty. Because that's how those things happen, dontchaknow.

more than that.
that she was the first woman of color hired by Harvard university in that capacity.
nothing shady here. please move along.


do you get paid to post by the RNC or "Hot" Karl Rove?
 
2012-05-18 09:12:23 AM

Irregardless: Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. She's much more appealing being part Native American.


How?
 
2012-05-18 10:00:23 AM

Captain Dan: Warren graduated from Rutgers, a Tier 2 law school ranked 86th in the nation. There's nothing wrong with Rutgers Law, and plenty of excellent lawyers come from Tier 2 schools. However, they don't go on to teach at Harvard.

Maybe Warren is the exception. But, more likely, she benefited from affirmative action.


Since you dittoheads aren't bothering to put any effort into your complaints, and are simply repeating the same talking point over and over, i suppose it's fair for me to simply post the same response:

She started teaching at Rutgers Law, and then spent the next twenty years publishing books, papers, and research, gradually moving up the chain to positions at more and more prestigious law schools ( Rutgers --> University of Houston --> University of Texas --> U Penn --> Harvard) continuing her solid record of publishing and research the entire time -- more than a dozen books, contributions to almost a dozen more, as well as four or five dozen articles published in Academic Journals -- and she won numerous scholarly and professional awards while she was doing it.

That's how she got to Harvard, and the same pattern - books, articles, awards - during her time there is what got her tenure.

Or I could choose to take the word of some lackwit dittohead (that would be you, moran) who thinks she got where she was because of affirmative action. Let me get back to you on that
 
2012-05-18 10:43:06 AM
Ctrl-Alt-Del: She started teaching at Rutgers Law, and then spent the next twenty years publishing books, papers, and research, gradually moving up the chain to positions at more and more prestigious law schools ( Rutgers, University of Houston, University of Texas, U Penn, Harvard) continuing her solid record of publishing and research the entire time -- more than a dozen books, contributions to almost a dozen more, as well as four or five dozen articles published in Academic Journals -- and she won numerous scholarly and professional awards while she was doing it.

That's how she got to Harvard, and the same pattern - books, articles, awards - during her time there is what got her tenure.


Warren is no different than the hundreds of other professors who follow that exact same pattern of scholarship, except that she was promoted far beyond them.

People with those credentials - the ones you just listed - don't teach at Harvard. It's not enough.

Don't believe me? Take a look at the Harvard Law Faculty. It's a long string of Harvard JDs, Yale JDs, and occasionally a JD from Stanford, Chicago, or some other Tier 1 law school.

A Rutgers degree sticks out as the glaring exception.

Or I could choose to take the word of some lackwit dittohead (that would be you, moran) who thinks she got where she was because of affirmative action. Let me get back to you on that

You do yourself, your cause, and Elizabeth Warren no favors when you resort to shopworn ad hominems. If you're going to insult, be witty.

You shouldn't take my word for anything. I've presented a circumstantial case that Warren has overperformed her credentials. If you have a problem with that, address the argument.
 
2012-05-18 02:59:01 PM

Captain Dan: Warren is no different than the hundreds of other professors who follow that exact same pattern of scholarship, except that she was promoted far beyond them.

People with those credentials - the ones you just listed - don't teach at Harvard. It's not enough.

Don't believe me? Take a look at the Harvard Law Faculty. It's a long string of Harvard JDs, Yale JDs, and occasionally a JD from Stanford, Chicago, or some other Tier 1 law school.

A Rutgers degree sticks out as the glaring exception.


So she's exceptionally brilliant -- a much more probable conclusion considering her achievements to date.

You are so lost in fantasy land that even the chicken you're farking is a figment of your imagination.
 
2012-05-18 03:29:39 PM

jules_siegel: Captain Dan: Warren is no different than the hundreds of other professors who follow that exact same pattern of scholarship, except that she was promoted far beyond them.

People with those credentials - the ones you just listed - don't teach at Harvard. It's not enough.

Don't believe me? Take a look at the Harvard Law Faculty. It's a long string of Harvard JDs, Yale JDs, and occasionally a JD from Stanford, Chicago, or some other Tier 1 law school.

A Rutgers degree sticks out as the glaring exception.

So she's exceptionally brilliant -- a much more probable conclusion considering her achievements to date.

You are so lost in fantasy land that even the chicken you're farking is a figment of your imagination.


It appears she's also brilliant at plagiarizing in her incredibly hokey stereotype ridden fake Indian cookbook.

Did Elizabeth Warren Plagiarize Her 'Pow Wow Chow' Recipes?
 
2012-05-18 03:34:38 PM

ambercat: brantgoose: Why are White People always descended from Cherokees? Don't you have any other tribes in the United States? I can name ten or twenty Canadian First Nations I might be descended from, but these Cherohonkies (as they call them) have no imagination.

I could be part Micmac, Malecite, Passamaquoddy, Algonquin, Mountain, Cree, Huron, yada, yada, yada.

Nope. It's always the Cherokees. The Roman Catholic Church slash McDonalds of native peoploes.

Personally, if I were claiming to be part Indian, I would prefer the Apache to the Cherokee, especially if I had some scalps to prove it. And how about the Kickapoo, creators of the famous Kickapoo Joy Juice. Wait. Kickapoo. Shiatkicker. I just got that after forty years.

Boy, that was a slow-fuse joke.

It's more fun to say Kickapoo than Shiatkicker any way.

Because Cherokees were more accepting of intermarriage from a much earlier time than other tribes were, both because they were more interested in adopting European culture and technology, and also because Cherokee descent (as they considered it) was matrilineal, kind of like it is for Jews. If you mother is a Jew, you are automatically a Jew, even if you've never been to a synagogue in your life. If you are a woman, then your children will be too. If your father is but your mother is not, you are not, unless you convert (though the most liberal of reform synagogues aren't as firm on this, but traditionally that was the case). The difference was you can't convert to being Cherokee.

So people who were born to Cherokee mothers and white fathers could more fully participate in tribal life than half whites/half natives could in other tribes, (who might exclude them completely) and could offset whatever prejudices people had about their appearance by helping the tribe with things like the english skills they learned from dad. Since such children experienced a ton of prejudice from white people for being 'half-breeds', that gave them an incentive to stick with the t ...


This.

Not only this, but during and after the Trail of Tears, a lot of folks of Cherokee descent did intermarry into white families so as to "pass"--note that pretty much after 1838, most Southeastern states made it illegal to be in the states or own property if you were Native. A fair number of folks who managed to escape the Removals ended up "passing" and intermarrying.

(And as Ambercat notes, a lot of this was going on even before the Trail of Tears. What Andy Jackson did was less "clearing out savages" and more frank ethnic cleansing of a First Nation that had a level of civilisation on par with most of the states in the US of the era--some would argue MORE civilised than the folks wanting Cherokee lands for gold prospecting, as most of the Cherokee were at least literate in their own language.)

Hence why you do have a rather substantial population, especially in the Southeast, of what amounts to metis people of Cherokee (and sometimes Creek) descent.

Oh, and as an aside--pretty much you can tell the people who have researched stuff and keep some tribal ties and aren't just puttin' on airs about indigenous lineage if they DON'T claim their ancestor was a "Cherokee Princess" (there never was such a thing; closest that existed were "Honoured Women" who were closer to senators in what amounted to the Cherokee parliament--hell, there's stories about how the PRIESTHOOD got disbanded for being too uppity, and there always was a parliamentary or at least representative form of government). My particular ancestors were plain folk, some of whom went off-rez before the Removals, some of whom escaped from being herded to Oklahoma, and some of whom spent years "passing" before marrying into white families. :D Pretty much all of 'em were poor and not anything you'd term royal; one we know of in the rolls was a baby who got rescued.
 
2012-05-18 03:38:10 PM
Also, as an addendum--up until the time of the Trail of Tears, the Cherokee Nation was the largest recognised single tribal group in the US (the Creek and the Iroquois Confederacy may have had more numbers but were in separate Nations that had confederacies). It's akin to asking "Why the hell are there so many damn Navajo in the Four Corners region?)

(And in fact, the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma is STILL one of the larger First Nations groups in the US as far as population goes--only the Navajo or more properly Dine have larger population, though the latter do have quite a bit more tribal territory.)
 
2012-05-18 04:13:04 PM

MoeSzyslak: It appears she's also brilliant at plagiarizing in her incredibly hokey stereotype ridden fake Indian cookbook.

Did Elizabeth Warren Plagiarize Her 'Pow Wow Chow' Recipes?


Except if you actually read the recipes, the instructions and ingredients are different. Not much plagiarism to see there, folks.
 
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