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(Des Moines Register)   "One in eight students at Iowa State University didn't realize they would have student loan debt after graduation"   (desmoinesregister.com) divider line 225
    More: Fail, Iowa, Iowa State University, state university, student loans, student teaching, graduation, financial literacy, students  
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7584 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 May 2012 at 2:43 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-17 12:05:44 AM
loan payments. how do they work
 
2012-05-17 12:30:01 AM
And the world welcomes another group of Elementary Education degree-holders
 
2012-05-17 12:43:30 AM
One in eight students at ISU probably thinks the world is as flat as their state.
 
2012-05-17 12:44:20 AM
FTFA: Enrollment in a for-credit personal finance course is growing steadily

Why these aren't already required in order to be graduated from high school, I have no idea.
 
2012-05-17 02:44:04 AM
One in eight students at ISU are getting art history degrees.
 
2012-05-17 02:45:19 AM
Seven out of eight students figured mommy and daddy would be paying for their loans after graduation.
 
2012-05-17 02:46:05 AM
It's Iowa. A state known mostly for its position in the Presidential primary season and dumb people.

Who was really surprised by this?
 
2012-05-17 02:49:06 AM
Perhaps the problem is low admissions standards.
 
2012-05-17 02:51:05 AM
I've seen universities just lie outright about funding packages before. Also, some universities changes fees for grad students at really cunning times of the year.

It is possible that the university misrepresented their funding structure to students. If a banker or mortgage broker can do it, anybody in a poorly regulated privatized industry can.

Somacandra: FTFA: Enrollment in a for-credit personal finance course is growing steadily

Why these aren't already required in order to be graduated from high school, I have no idea.


Step one: Claim to educate people to protect themselves from predatory businesses.
Step two: It was a lie.
Step three: Profit!
 
2012-05-17 02:52:14 AM
How do you pronounce the name of that state again?
 
2012-05-17 02:53:07 AM

wademh: Perhaps the problem is low admissions standards.


No, because all kids are equally smart and all of them should go to college.
 
2012-05-17 02:58:41 AM

Somacandra: FTFA: Enrollment in a for-credit personal finance course is growing steadily

Why these aren't already required in order to be graduated from high school, I have no idea.


I wish I had had one years ago. I knew nothing about credit, credit scores, and all that jazz. All I knew about paying bills was what my mother taught me, which was pretty much "fark the bills till they're at the door to cut it off". I knew I was doing something wrong the day I fretted over paying a $70ish bill when it was due when I had $21k sitting in my checking account.

Hopefully, the wife and I will instill some sort of financial intelligence into the kid instead of the crap education we got.
 
2012-05-17 03:00:54 AM
You can't even get a loan without signing a whole bunch of paperwork saying you'll pay it back. The school can't sign that for you. Also, 1 in 8 students ought to be working at a convenience store somewhere.
 
2012-05-17 03:01:13 AM
Well, 8 out of 7 of the students don't understand fractions....

/it's not just financial lit, it's a general lack of awareness to how the world actually works.
//kids have always been dumb, but after cell phones (smart phones) became prevalent it's pretty much hopeless
 
2012-05-17 03:06:03 AM

Gyrfalcon: wademh: Perhaps the problem is low admissions standards.

No, because all kids are equally smart and all of them should go to college.


Do they all get trophies?
 
2012-05-17 03:06:32 AM
ah, begun, the loan wars have.


well, if they had been required to read the small print that was at the bottom of the promissory note they signed in order to get those loans, they'd know that they would have to pay them back, starting 6 months after they stopped taking enough courses to qualify for half-time at their university. Also, having parents who harped at me to read the fine print, about 30+ times, before I even had the promissory note up on the screen(electronic filing), and an older brother who is still paying off his loans, 8 years later, who gave me a no-shiatter about how annoying the collections agents can be(not for him: a former room mate decided to rack up about $60K in loans and then drop off the face of the earth), and how they can ruin your life, credit, etc., helped. Also helps that I know how much I am going to be going into debt beforehand($30K or so). They might have decided to go to a trade school instead, and been like my cousin, who makes a decent living as an HVAC union member, climbing the ranks within the organization. I thought about doing that myself: paid training, time off, good wages, and a pension after 15-20 years. That's right, they pay you to learn, and after paying dues for 20 years, they pay you to sit on that fat ass and do something else. Like the army, only without the whole, "getting shot at" thing.

/privatized student loans would have killed me, at 6.8% interest.
//that's IF the private banks, strapped for cash, didn't raise the rates arbitrarily
 
2012-05-17 03:06:52 AM

Somacandra: FTFA: Enrollment in a for-credit personal finance course is growing steadily

Why these aren't already required in order to be graduated from high school, I have no idea.


Seriously: a generic home ec course that teaches you basic food prep, the concept of a budget, etc. Maybe include "how to fill yoru gas tank" and "which end of a hammer hits nails".
 
2012-05-17 03:10:14 AM
They'll be running Wall St investment firms in 10 years.
 
2012-05-17 03:15:06 AM

The results show a need for additional financial counseling to help students understand their borrowing and how it will impact their lives after graduation, researchers said.


/Snort.
//Researcher from the institute of perpetual debt.
 
2012-05-17 03:17:03 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: It's Iowa. A state known mostly for its position in the Presidential primary season and dumb people.


It's okay. You're among friends here. Show us on the doll where the Iowan touched you.
 
2012-05-17 03:17:49 AM
Equally likely is that the financial aid office, if they got their loans through there like I did back in the late Sixties/early Seventies, has no real grasp on how much they owe, either.

I got an NDEA loan for the four years I was an undergrad that came to a total of $5000. Up to half of it was forgivable if you taught for five years, @ 10% per year that you taught. I taught for one year before the school I was at merged with another and my contract was not renewed due to politics and seniority, so I had $4500 + 3% interest to pay off. I did, not as fast as I and the institution would have liked, what with getting married, getting a house and kids and such.

Repayment, however, was complicated by the fact the university sold the loan to Wackovia and they shopped it around to three or four different branches around the country. I'd sent payment to the one branch, only to be told it was now to go to another and somehow, those other branches never credited the payments sent to the previous ones. Then they'd rotate them again. At one point, I was getting payment demands from three branches at the same time, each one showing a different balance. By 1980, after many letters and aid from my Congressman, it seemed I got it settled and all paid off. Then, in 1988, I took some insurance courses at a local community college for my job. On passing, my employer paid the fees, but this somehow triggered an alert that I was on financial aid for school again and I got a dunning letter from my old university saying I still owed $500. They had bought back the loan and all the screwed up accounting from Wackovia.

Dammit.

I argued to no avail, so I paid. The I demanded the original paper work, marked paid. Nope, they wouldn't do that, as they had lost it. I settled for a letter from the director of financial aid on letterhead attesting to the fact it was all paid. In 2000, I ordered a transcript from the university in oder to re-up my teaching license. The registrar refused, stating I had outstanding student loans with them. Fortunately, I had that letter and faxed it to them and re-requested the transcripts and an apology. I got the transcripts but not the apology.

I am just sure that they will hit me with another payment demand when I'm 90.

Never trust the bastards.
 
2012-05-17 03:19:40 AM
I knew I'd have to pay it back, but I didn't understand anything about money at that age. I couldn't have told you what a typical annual salary was. There had been no classes at high school about anything having to do with money. I didn't know how a credit card worked until I got married.

So when the time came I figured out all that stuff. I just wish the time had come much sooner. It's not stupidity, it's ignorance. I'm still mystified when I think back to all my schooling and how none of it involved any kind of personal finance, one of the most important things you need to know to get by.

Turns out the Shakespeare didn't come in all that handy.
 
2012-05-17 03:25:55 AM

Somacandra: FTFA: Enrollment in a for-credit personal finance course is growing steadily

Why these aren't already required in order to be graduated from high school, I have no idea.


Maybe it's because the world doesn't need everyone to be engineers. Such knowledge is not a bad thing, but unfortunately the overall effect would be to scare most of these kids into just a few vocations and leave other majors to rot, which is not a good thing. Indread of teaching these kids to be smart about student loans and their consequences, if taught by people like the ones who haunt these forums it will be an excuse to push these highly impressionable and malleable minds away from their hopes and dreams and into early dronehood, where they will spend the next 40-50 years as another cog in the machines of the wealthy.

scene: high school counselor's office, 2016:
"Don't take that major! You'll never ever ever ever pay of your student loans!" *whacks with rolled-up newspaper*
"OW! But I can draw and paint and animate, and I'm good at it!"
"Doesn't matter! *whack* You'll take this calculus and like it, then become an oil sands engineer up in Assfreezer, Canada!"
"Why would I do that?" *whack* "Hey!"
"Because we said so! We are the market, and the reason you're spending all this money in the first place is to get training we're too cheap to provide! Now shut up and crunch those numbers!"

But the FARK hive mind firmly believes that it it's not a STEM course it ain't sh*t, so maybe the world will be better off without artists and historians and people who study literature and languages and philosophy and all the other things that make our civilization "civilized" as their life's work.

Who need that sh*t anyway... ooh look! Ow My Balls is on!!
 
2012-05-17 03:28:55 AM

TV's Vinnie: AverageAmericanGuy: It's Iowa. A state known mostly for its position in the Presidential primary season and dumb people.

It's okay. You're among friends here. Show us on the doll where the Iowan touched you.


I've never been molested by a state, but I did once fall onto Idaho like Frank Costanza fell on the fussili Jerry.
 
2012-05-17 03:34:45 AM
"You're talking about people who, for them, borrowing is new,"
Mormons? All Mormons?

can't believe I'm *oh lookit the time* nevermind

www.demotivationalposters.org
 
2012-05-17 03:43:51 AM

rewind2846: Somacandra: FTFA: Enrollment in a for-credit personal finance course is growing steadily

Why these aren't already required in order to be graduated from high school, I have no idea.

Maybe it's because the world doesn't need everyone to be engineers. Such knowledge is not a bad thing, but unfortunately the overall effect would be to scare most of these kids into just a few vocations and leave other majors to rot, which is not a good thing. Indread of teaching these kids to be smart about student loans and their consequences, if taught by people like the ones who haunt these forums it will be an excuse to push these highly impressionable and malleable minds away from their hopes and dreams and into early dronehood, where they will spend the next 40-50 years as another cog in the machines of the wealthy.

scene: high school counselor's office, 2016:
"Don't take that major! You'll never ever ever ever pay of your student loans!" *whacks with rolled-up newspaper*
"OW! But I can draw and paint and animate, and I'm good at it!"
"Doesn't matter! *whack* You'll take this calculus and like it, then become an oil sands engineer up in Assfreezer, Canada!"
"Why would I do that?" *whack* "Hey!"
"Because we said so! We are the market, and the reason you're spending all this money in the first place is to get training we're too cheap to provide! Now shut up and crunch those numbers!"

But the FARK hive mind firmly believes that it it's not a STEM course it ain't sh*t, so maybe the world will be better off without artists and historians and people who study literature and languages and philosophy and all the other things that make our civilization "civilized" as their life's work.

Who need that sh*t anyway... ooh look! Ow My Balls is on!!


So...you're saying we shouldn't say to students what the average pay is for their major of choice? Students who might not know that just because they can draw a "wicked sweet" picture, that a degree in art isn't going to gain them anything besides some massive loans? I'm sorry your degree in Communications doesn't pay as much as a BS in Engineering...but does that mean that 18 year olds SHOULDN'T be fully informed?
 
2012-05-17 03:51:14 AM

powhound: //kids have always been dumb, but after cell phones (smart phones) became prevalent it's pretty much hopeless


No, kids are as dumb as they ever were and that isn't changing. It's not hopeless. I think we'll make it through okay, grandpa.
 
2012-05-17 03:52:51 AM
One in eight college students are too stupid to be in college.

/or they're working on a PhD in [blank] studies.
//but I repeat myself
 
2012-05-17 03:56:26 AM

rewind2846: Somacandra: FTFA: Enrollment in a for-credit personal finance course is growing steadily

Why these aren't already required in order to be graduated from high school, I have no idea.

Maybe it's because the world doesn't need everyone to be engineers. Such knowledge is not a bad thing, but unfortunately the overall effect would be to scare most of these kids into just a few vocations and leave other majors to rot, which is not a good thing. Indread of teaching these kids to be smart about student loans and their consequences, if taught by people like the ones who haunt these forums it will be an excuse to push these highly impressionable and malleable minds away from their hopes and dreams and into early dronehood, where they will spend the next 40-50 years as another cog in the machines of the wealthy.

scene: high school counselor's office, 2016:
"Don't take that major! You'll never ever ever ever pay of your student loans!" *whacks with rolled-up newspaper*
"OW! But I can draw and paint and animate, and I'm good at it!"
"Doesn't matter! *whack* You'll take this calculus and like it, then become an oil sands engineer up in Assfreezer, Canada!"
"Why would I do that?" *whack* "Hey!"
"Because we said so! We are the market, and the reason you're spending all this money in the first place is to get training we're too cheap to provide! Now shut up and crunch those numbers!"

But the FARK hive mind firmly believes that it it's not a STEM course it ain't sh*t, so maybe the world will be better off without artists and historians and people who study literature and languages and philosophy and all the other things that make our civilization "civilized" as their life's work.

Who need that sh*t anyway... ooh look! Ow My Balls is on!!


So you're saying that Science, Technology, and Engineering don't make for a civilizied society? I mean if the sole basis of what makes a culture great is pretty artwork, then humans peaked about 600 years ago.
 
2012-05-17 03:58:18 AM

thursdaypostal: powhound: //kids have always been dumb, but after cell phones (smart phones) became prevalent it's pretty much hopeless

No, kids are as dumb as they ever were and that isn't changing. It's not hopeless. I think we'll make it through okay, grandpa.


I think the problem is related to technology, but not the way powhound thinks. If some kid said something dumb to his friends in the 90's, only his friends heard him. If they say something dumb now, it's screencapped and spread around showing how it's "the dumbest generation". Same with the "Re:Re:Re" forwards, which I don't know about anyone else, but for me are coming from people that are a leeeettle older, yet show the same level of intellect.
 
2012-05-17 04:05:59 AM

Pachelbel: thursdaypostal: powhound: //kids have always been dumb, but after cell phones (smart phones) became prevalent it's pretty much hopeless

No, kids are as dumb as they ever were and that isn't changing. It's not hopeless. I think we'll make it through okay, grandpa.

I think the problem is related to technology, but not the way powhound thinks. If some kid said something dumb to his friends in the 90's, only his friends heard him. If they say something dumb now, it's screencapped and spread around showing how it's "the dumbest generation". Same with the "Re:Re:Re" forwards, which I don't know about anyone else, but for me are coming from people that are a leeeettle older, yet show the same level of intellect.


It's not just this generation. I lived in the middle of nowhere Pennsyltucky but didn't really talk to anyone except like minded friends. I did not realize how many farking, stupid morons and racist assholes there were until everyone started using the internet in the past decade.
 
2012-05-17 04:07:22 AM
One of them will be a future CEO candidate for JP Morgan bank.
 
2012-05-17 04:08:51 AM

thursdaypostal: powhound: //kids have always been dumb, but after cell phones (smart phones) became prevalent it's pretty much hopeless

No, kids are as dumb as they ever were and that isn't changing. It's not hopeless. I think we'll make it through okay, grandpa.


hmmm...I've been working with kids from the same demographic for the last 10 years. I can promise you there is a noticeable difference.

Grandma
 
2012-05-17 04:16:20 AM

SN1987a goes boom:

So you're saying that Science, Technology, and Engineering don't make for a civilizied society? I mean if the sole basis of what makes a culture great is pretty artwork, then humans peaked about 600 years ago.


What we leave behind are our ideas, not our buildings. Those crumble and fade and are destroyed by war and time... but the people who we remember from thousands of years ago like Socrates, Plato, and Confucius, and those who we may remember 1000 years from now will be remembered not for things they made, but for things they thought and wrote down for the rest of us.

Science, technology and engineering are simply collections of ideas, useful in building things and curing disease but not inspiring in their own right. Even Steve Jobs got part of his inspiration for the MacOS from a typography (art) class. They have their place, but they are not the ONLY THING THAT SHOULD BE STUDIED BY COLLEGE STUDENTS, nor should they be the only majors available, even though many people post here think that should be the case.

Compare a book on calculus and a good book of poetry... open them both to a random page and read.
Where does your mind go when reading each book? Your response ("pretty artwork"), and the disdain the general public has at large for the arts and culture is what is helping to push us down the path to stupid, and at a breakneck pace.

Ideas are what make us civilized, not buildings and money.
 
2012-05-17 04:18:39 AM
Only 22 percent had not taken out loans.

I bet they are not from the occupy crowd.
 
2012-05-17 04:30:39 AM
Didn't Iowa accept "Fast Freddie Russell"? I remember seeing him run in high school and being amazed at how fast he was, but then hearing him speak and being amazed at how dumb he was. I was shocked that he got into ANY university.
 
2012-05-17 04:31:07 AM

Dialectic: I bet they are not from the occupy crowd managed to scrape scholarships together or have mommy and daddy paying for it, probably mommy and daddy.

 
2012-05-17 04:40:12 AM

rewind2846: SN1987a goes boom:

So you're saying that Science, Technology, and Engineering don't make for a civilizied society? I mean if the sole basis of what makes a culture great is pretty artwork, then humans peaked about 600 years ago.

What we leave behind are our ideas, not our buildings. Those crumble and fade and are destroyed by war and time... but the people who we remember from thousands of years ago like Socrates, Plato, and Confucius, and those who we may remember 1000 years from now will be remembered not for things they made, but for things they thought and wrote down for the rest of us.

Science, technology and engineering are simply collections of ideas, useful in building things and curing disease but not inspiring in their own right. Even Steve Jobs got part of his inspiration for the MacOS from a typography (art) class. They have their place, but they are not the ONLY THING THAT SHOULD BE STUDIED BY COLLEGE STUDENTS, nor should they be the only majors available, even though many people post here think that should be the case.

Compare a book on calculus and a good book of poetry... open them both to a random page and read.
Where does your mind go when reading each book? Your response ("pretty artwork"), and the disdain the general public has at large for the arts and culture is what is helping to push us down the path to stupid, and at a breakneck pace.

Ideas are what make us civilized, not buildings and money.


We retain a minimal fraction of the ideas from 1000 years ago. We also retain a minimal fraction of the relics of the era. As for the MacOS-typography connection - that's just not there. The operating system design was not affected by his typography class, just the output.

Should STEM students take English and History? Sure - they'll need to learn how to research and communicate ideas. But in STEM, a BS or Masters is intended to indicate someone who is an expert in the field. Does a BA in History or Drama indicate that? Does a person with a BA English from State U have any guaranteed skill in anything? There's no field that is hiring those people because of what they've learned. Sure, they can write a book, or a play, or paint something, but did the BA in those fields actually net them any more credibility in their field?

Sorry your degree field of choice doesn't pay. History is important, but no matter how many people graduate with that degree, no matter how many books are written about the the city of Houston in Republic of Texas in 1839, it doesn't mean that those graduates are going to be able to pay off their student loans - and they should be informed of this fact before they choose the major.
 
2012-05-17 04:55:26 AM

Pachelbel: I think the problem is related to technology, but not the way powhound thinks. If some kid said something dumb to his friends in the 90's, only his friends heard him. If they say something dumb now, it's screencapped and spread around showing how it's "the dumbest generation". Same with the "Re:Re:Re" forwards, which I don't know about anyone else, but for me are coming from people that are a leeeettle older, yet show the same level of intellect.


I'll give you that one. Stupidity is definitely more visible.

Seriously, though, hasn't every generation said every generation after them is the dumbest and/or laziest?
 
2012-05-17 05:05:54 AM

kmmontandon: One in eight students at ISU probably thinks the world is as flat as their state.


It should be called the 20% rule. In a sufficiently large population there will always be a bottom 20% who fark up even basic stuff. For example, 20% is roughly the number of Americans who think the sun revolves around the earth.
 
2012-05-17 05:18:17 AM

SN1987a goes boom: So you're saying that Science, Technology, and Engineering don't make for a civilizied society? I mean if the sole basis of what makes a culture great is pretty artwork, then humans peaked about 600 years ago.


STEM degrees are not some magic ticket to a job. And I do thing humanities degrees are very useful for nothing else of learning how to make an effective point and think well. Yeah, there are economics involved but overall it's not the end all of degrees.

/Chemical Engineering graduate
//Still couldn't find a farking job
 
2012-05-17 05:22:06 AM
Two kids in college, no student loans for either of them. Mr. Spork and I don't want them to start their financial lives by being subjected to predatory lending. Let them find out on a smaller scale, like a $500 crappy credit card. At least it won't wipe out their lives if they get stupid with it.

Of course, they don't go to any big name private place and they both work. We just help them make school ends meet. They're still "starving students" because they need to know the true value of a dollar, but they don't need a 50k millstone around their necks when they take entry level work.
 
2012-05-17 05:23:50 AM

LDM90: I knew I'd have to pay it back, but I didn't understand anything about money at that age. I couldn't have told you what a typical annual salary was. There had been no classes at high school about anything having to do with money. I didn't know how a credit card worked until I got married.

So when the time came I figured out all that stuff. I just wish the time had come much sooner. It's not stupidity, it's ignorance. I'm still mystified when I think back to all my schooling and how none of it involved any kind of personal finance, one of the most important things you need to know to get by.

Turns out the Shakespeare didn't come in all that handy.


You do know how obvious your lack of Shakespeare is, yes?
 
2012-05-17 05:31:45 AM

Pachelbel:

Should STEM students take English and History? Sure - they'll need to learn how to research and communicate ideas. But in STEM, a BS or Masters is intended to indicate someone who is an expert in the field. Does a BA in History or Drama indicate that?


Fail. The point of the Macintosh hardware and software was to produce better graphics and typography than was available on the IBM clones of the time, and that inspiration was from his art classes at Reed college. Go read it in his biography if you need proof.

"Throughout the campus," he remembered at an address to students at Stanford in 2005, '"every poster, every label on every drawer, was beautifully hand calligraphied." So, having dropped out and finding himself a free agent, he decided to take a class in this art. "I learned about serif and sans serif typefaces, about varying the amount of space between different letter combinations, about what makes great typography great. It was beautiful, historical, artistically subtle in a way that science can't capture, and I found it fascinating."

And yes, STEM people should take art and history and literature, if for no other reason than to get laid once in a while. If all they can talk about is science and technology, the sex is guaranteed not to happen.

History is important, but no matter how many people graduate with that degree, no matter how many books are written about the the city of Houston in Republic of Texas in 1839, it doesn't mean that those graduates are going to be able to pay off their student loans - and they should be informed of this fact before they choose the major.


And this attitude, as I explained above, is what seeks to destroy majors other than STEM. What happens when everyone becomes engineers and scientists and there's no one to teach anything else like art and music? I know folks like you probably take these things for granted, as evidence by your reply, but do you really want to live in a world without these things? Your magazines without photographers, graphic designers and typographers? Your car and appliances and electronics without the hands and minds of industrial designers? Your furniture and houses without architects and interior designers? Your clothing without fashion designers?

Your mode of thinking will scare these kids away from these vocations because others like you don't think they are of value to society. You take them for granted, clueless as to how very different society would be without them.

Think about what your world would look like and how it would work without these people and countless others that make iPhones look like iPhones, Ferraris look like Ferraris, and XBoxes look like XBoxes. There should be more recognition for their contributions to society, and with all the training and hard work one must go through to achieve that degree the pay should be commensurate as well. After all, if just "anyone" could become an artist or designer (at a professional level) then why don't they?

Science and technology are good and necessary things, but they cannot be all things. A world with nothing but engineers, while it may be efficient, is not a world in which I want to live.
 
2012-05-17 05:38:33 AM

Pachelbel: thursdaypostal: powhound: //kids have always been dumb, but after cell phones (smart phones) became prevalent it's pretty much hopeless

No, kids are as dumb as they ever were and that isn't changing. It's not hopeless. I think we'll make it through okay, grandpa.

I think the problem is related to technology, but not the way powhound thinks. If some kid said something dumb to his friends in the 90's, only his friends heard him. If they say something dumb now, it's screencapped and spread around showing how it's "the dumbest generation". Same with the "Re:Re:Re" forwards, which I don't know about anyone else, but for me are coming from people that are a leeeettle older, yet show the same level of intellect.


I don't actually have any thoughts on that matter, but want to say that your handle rocks - "Canon" is one of my favorite pieces of music in the whole world.
 
2012-05-17 05:48:31 AM

SN1987a goes boom: rewind2846: Somacandra: FTFA: Enrollment in a for-credit personal finance course is growing steadily

Why these aren't already required in order to be graduated from high school, I have no idea.

Maybe it's because the world doesn't need everyone to be engineers. Such knowledge is not a bad thing, but unfortunately the overall effect would be to scare most of these kids into just a few vocations and leave other majors to rot, which is not a good thing. Indread of teaching these kids to be smart about student loans and their consequences, if taught by people like the ones who haunt these forums it will be an excuse to push these highly impressionable and malleable minds away from their hopes and dreams and into early dronehood, where they will spend the next 40-50 years as another cog in the machines of the wealthy.

scene: high school counselor's office, 2016:
"Don't take that major! You'll never ever ever ever pay of your student loans!" *whacks with rolled-up newspaper*
"OW! But I can draw and paint and animate, and I'm good at it!"
"Doesn't matter! *whack* You'll take this calculus and like it, then become an oil sands engineer up in Assfreezer, Canada!"
"Why would I do that?" *whack* "Hey!"
"Because we said so! We are the market, and the reason you're spending all this money in the first place is to get training we're too cheap to provide! Now shut up and crunch those numbers!"

But the FARK hive mind firmly believes that it it's not a STEM course it ain't sh*t, so maybe the world will be better off without artists and historians and people who study literature and languages and philosophy and all the other things that make our civilization "civilized" as their life's work.

Who need that sh*t anyway... ooh look! Ow My Balls is on!!

So you're saying that Science, Technology, and Engineering don't make for a civilizied society? I mean if the sole basis of what makes a culture great is pretty artwork, then humans peaked about 600 years ago.


A working knowledge of history would be useful when, oh, this nation decides to invade a small country in the Middle East that was nation-built by the British after they threw an arbitrary line around three disparate peoples and then watched it collapse into Civil War within a couple decades after they left.

Iraq wasn't another Vietnam, it was another Iraq. Most of America, especially its lawmakers, were just too ignorant to know it. But hey, yeah, let's occupy Afghanistan. It worked out so well for the Russians.

I also love being lectured about how the U.S. "was founded as a christian nation" by a bunch of farkwits who know nothing of this nation's history. Though the Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11 usually shuts them up.

So yes, some knowledge of the humanities is necessary for a civilized society.
 
2012-05-17 05:49:41 AM

rewind2846: Pachelbel:

Should STEM students take English and History? Sure - they'll need to learn how to research and communicate ideas. But in STEM, a BS or Masters is intended to indicate someone who is an expert in the field. Does a BA in History or Drama indicate that?

Fail. The point of the Macintosh hardware and software was to produce better graphics and typography than was available on the IBM clones of the time, and that inspiration was from his art classes at Reed college. Go read it in his biography if you need proof.

"Throughout the campus," he remembered at an address to students at Stanford in 2005, '"every poster, every label on every drawer, was beautifully hand calligraphied." So, having dropped out and finding himself a free agent, he decided to take a class in this art. "I learned about serif and sans serif typefaces, about varying the amount of space between different letter combinations, about what makes great typography great. It was beautiful, historical, artistically subtle in a way that science can't capture, and I found it fascinating."

And yes, STEM people should take art and history and literature, if for no other reason than to get laid once in a while. If all they can talk about is science and technology, the sex is guaranteed not to happen.

History is important, but no matter how many people graduate with that degree, no matter how many books are written about the the city of Houston in Republic of Texas in 1839, it doesn't mean that those graduates are going to be able to pay off their student loans - and they should be informed of this fact before they choose the major.

And this attitude, as I explained above, is what seeks to destroy majors other than STEM. What happens when everyone becomes engineers and scientists and there's no one to teach anything else like art and music? I know folks like you probably take these things for granted, as evidence by your reply, but do you really want to live in a world without these things? Your ...


You can mock this guy all you want, folks - but he has a point. When education becomes entirely utilitarian, we will be a poorer society. To get a taste of it, just look around Fark at all the geeks and nerds here who are geniuses in some field or other, but who have the social habits and mental processes of a child. Do you really want to live in an entire society of people like that? That rates people and what they know exclusively on the basis of earning power? And when we have built this shining culture of Gordon Geckos and Sheldon Coopers - will we like it?
I'll be dead, so my ancient ass don't have to worry about it - it's your problem, kiddies - not mine.
 
2012-05-17 05:52:34 AM

ArcadianRefugee: Somacandra: FTFA: Enrollment in a for-credit personal finance course is growing steadily

Why these aren't already required in order to be graduated from high school, I have no idea.

Seriously: a generic home ec course that teaches you basic food prep, the concept of a budget, etc. Maybe include "how to fill yoru gas tank" and "which end of a hammer hits nails".


- how to fill your gas tank: you're not supposed to 'top off'. i'd never heard of the term until a couple years ago. if i paid 20 bucks and the system shut off a couple cents before reaching that 20, i 'topped off'. a refund, what was that? so no, i didn't know how to fill my tank properly. i had to be taught.

- basic food prep: if all you eat is processed food, you're not going to learn how to cook. you have to be taught.

- budgeting: you have to be taught. no one is born with budgeting skills. you learn it by watching how those around you budget.

- which end of a hammer hits nails: some folks can drive a nail with one tap. others end up bending it while tapping. and some hammers are better for certain jobs than other hammers. you have to be taught.

if you were born knowing all that, you rock. i wasn't.
 
2012-05-17 05:58:35 AM

KarmaSpork: Two kids in college, no student loans for either of them. Mr. Spork and I don't want them to start their financial lives by being subjected to predatory lending. Let them find out on a smaller scale, like a $500 crappy credit card. At least it won't wipe out their lives if they get stupid with it.

Of course, they don't go to any big name private place and they both work. We just help them make school ends meet. They're still "starving students" because they need to know the true value of a dollar, but they don't need a 50k millstone around their necks when they take entry level work.


The credit card thing only works if you allow them to make their own mistakes, and don't pay their bills for them. Do you allow them to take that 30 day, 60 day, 90 day hit for not making payment? If you don't and take care of it for them, they're not learning the lesson you think you want them to learn.

As for you just helping them make school ends meet, they know the true value of a dollar is that they have a network, a safety net beneath them which will save them -- you guys -- if they end up in real trouble. A lot of folks don't have that. Hell, you're paying for their education. You consider them 'starving students'. In the student world, they are rich. And that's alright.

Please don't teach them that they are doing it all by themselves, however.
 
2012-05-17 06:23:04 AM
Considering this is Iowa, they probably didn't think it was an actual loan that had to be repaid, but just another "giveaway program from those damn tax-and-spend Liberals in Washington!"
 
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