If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Discover)   North American fish populations slowly crawling back from disaster. Let's see if we can get them to crawl towards the tartar sauce   (blogs.discovermagazine.com) divider line 45
    More: Cool  
•       •       •

1986 clicks; posted to Geek » on 16 May 2012 at 11:49 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



45 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2012-05-16 11:55:03 PM
Mmm, Salmon.
 
2012-05-17 12:12:21 AM
Wonder if we'll ever see Atlantic Cod on the menu again...
 
2012-05-17 12:13:14 AM
Sounds suspiciously like a success story for a government department and a long list of regulations.

I demand equal time for free-market solutions!
 
2012-05-17 01:10:16 AM
You gotta be crazy to eat anything from the sea these days. Or have a relaxed attitude towards mercury poisoning, and who knows what else is in the stuff.
 
2012-05-17 01:24:07 AM
Subby, you magnificent bastidge!

+1
 
2012-05-17 01:50:46 AM
So does this mean I am going to be able to get into 40-50" muskellunge more often?
 
2012-05-17 04:38:36 AM

CygnusDarius: Mmm, Salmon.


Yeah, never mind the fact that any salmon caught in California waters is actually farm spawned and raised. We've damed up every river outlet to provide hydro-electric power; so there's no way for the salmon to return to their natural spawning grounds. There's a canal/lock system for the dams that channels returning salmon into catch pools. There, the milt (sperm) and roe (eggs) are harvested by hand and mixed together in concrete spawning ponds. The little guys hatch, live in the concrete ponds for a while, then get sent back towards the ocean. If you're catching wild salmon, you can tell a Californa chinook/king/coho from an Oregon or Washington breed because the bottom fins on the California fish are underdeveloped and worn down from scraping against the concrete all day for a couple months.

Also, some freshwater fish are endangered because some morons in the CA Dept. of Fish & Game thought it would be a great idea to bring Norther Pike into some of the deeper lakes to encourage sportfishing. The pike ended up pretty much devouring anything remotely aquatic in the lake: fish, amphibians, whatever. Sportfishing of pike never caught on big outside of the Great Lake states, so the DFG decided to get rid of the pike by using a poison called Rotanone ( gill constrictant, which means the fish suffocate in the water). The funny thing about Rotanone is, it becomes less effective the deeper and colder the water gets. Pike live near the bottom of deep, cold lakes. So, the Rotanone killed off any fish that the pike hadn't already eaten in the upper parts of the lake, while the pike stayed just fine and ate smaller spawnlings and bottom dwelling fish. So, there are lakes in California that are overrun by a large, voracious, predatory species. preventing any kind of balanced ecosystem to return.

But, that's what you get when you have a government department responsible for overseeing and preserving hunting and fishing that's run entirely by political appointees with zero knowledge or experience in how the environment actually works.
 
2012-05-17 04:48:55 AM
yes, because noaa is doing such a bang up job, wonder if they are doing this research from there new $30,000 party boat. ya know, the one they bought with fines from new england fishermen
 
2012-05-17 06:37:05 AM

0Icky0: Sounds suspiciously like a success story for a government department and a long list of regulations.

I demand equal time for free-market solutions!


THIS. How do we know that the fish weren't glad their populations were reduced. First, it made the odds of any individual fish being caught much less. Second, if a fish was caught, because it was now almost extinct, it would command a much higher price. Free fish market in action.

Why are you trying to force soshalism on the fishes?

/Free fish market in action
//Like my mom
///NO WAIT--don't click submit!
 
2012-05-17 06:54:55 AM

Bladel: Wonder if we'll ever see Atlantic Cod on the menu again...


Saw "How it's made" the other day. They were shipping frozen Chinese cod all the way to Nova Scotia to process it. That's 19000 km, 6000 km of it by truck.

All to make fish sticks.
 
2012-05-17 07:29:46 AM

RoyFokker'sGhost: CygnusDarius: Mmm, Salmon.

Yeah, never mind the fact that any salmon caught in California waters is actually farm spawned and raised. We've damed up every river outlet to provide hydro-electric power; so there's no way for the salmon to return to their natural spawning grounds. There's a canal/lock system for the dams that channels returning salmon into catch pools. There, the milt (sperm) and roe (eggs) are harvested by hand and mixed together in concrete spawning ponds. The little guys hatch, live in the concrete ponds for a while, then get sent back towards the ocean. If you're catching wild salmon, you can tell a Californa chinook/king/coho from an Oregon or Washington breed because the bottom fins on the California fish are underdeveloped and worn down from scraping against the concrete all day for a couple months.

Also, some freshwater fish are endangered because some morons in the CA Dept. of Fish & Game thought it would be a great idea to bring Norther Pike into some of the deeper lakes to encourage sportfishing. The pike ended up pretty much devouring anything remotely aquatic in the lake: fish, amphibians, whatever. Sportfishing of pike never caught on big outside of the Great Lake states, so the DFG decided to get rid of the pike by using a poison called Rotanone ( gill constrictant, which means the fish suffocate in the water). The funny thing about Rotanone is, it becomes less effective the deeper and colder the water gets. Pike live near the bottom of deep, cold lakes. So, the Rotanone killed off any fish that the pike hadn't already eaten in the upper parts of the lake, while the pike stayed just fine and ate smaller spawnlings and bottom dwelling fish. So, there are lakes in California that are overrun by a large, voracious, predatory species. preventing any kind of balanced ecosystem to return.

But, that's what you get when you have a government department responsible for overseeing and preserving hunting and fishing that's run entirely by politi ...


If you have a lake that will support Northern Pike, why the hell wouldn't you go with Lake Trout instead? Just as fun to catch and a whole lot tastier.
 
2012-05-17 08:34:19 AM
Evening, ladies!
 
2012-05-17 08:52:46 AM
Don't even get me started on swai.

/I miss my orange roughy.
 
2012-05-17 09:06:25 AM

fugue2005: yes, because noaa is doing such a bang up job, wonder if they are doing this research from there new $30,000 party boat. ya know, the one they bought with fines from new england fishermen


Cry moar, emo dude. Those New England fisherman would certainly be unemployed if the Grand Banks fishery collapsed.

And a "$30,000 party boat"? You'd think they'd aim higher with their debauchery. 30 large gets you, what, a Zodiac with a kegerator?
 
2012-05-17 09:25:25 AM

sammyk: If you have a lake that will support Northern Pike, why the hell wouldn't you go with Lake Trout instead? Just as fun to catch and a whole lot tastier.


Northern pike can live in shallow, warm water, too (nearly every lake in Wisconsin has them). Lake trout need it cold and deep.

But overall, the USA does a good job with sustainable seafood. At least, nowadays they do. Almost any fish wild caught from the USA is sustainable.
 
2012-05-17 09:39:33 AM

Travis_Bickle: Bladel: Wonder if we'll ever see Atlantic Cod on the menu again...

Saw "How it's made" the other day. They were shipping frozen Chinese cod all the way to Nova Scotia to process it. That's 19000 km, 6000 km of it by truck.

All to make fish sticks.


Yummy yummy delicious fish sticks. I eat them with Honey BBQ sauce, my son uses ketchup, we can polish off a 50 bag in 2 sittings.
 
2012-05-17 10:05:29 AM

RoyFokker'sGhost: CygnusDarius: Mmm, Salmon.

Yeah, never mind the fact that any salmon caught in California waters is actually farm spawned and raised. We've damed up every river outlet to provide hydro-electric power; so there's no way for the salmon to return to their natural spawning grounds.


False. While there is a large % of hatchery salmon (which, btw, is not "farmed," at best it would be called "ranched"), there are wild salmon and populations are getting healthier.


There's a canal/lock system for the dams that channels returning salmon into catch pools. There, the milt (sperm) and roe (eggs) are harvested by hand and mixed together in concrete spawning ponds.

You know how I know you're full of shiat? The milt and eggs are pretty much mixed in plastic buckets.



. . .But, that's what you get when you have a government department responsible for overseeing and preserving hunting and fishing that's run entirely by politi ...

What you get when they finally start getting it right is recovery and stability. Yes, there are political decisions that are farking frustrating, but those usually have to do with being way too lax with regulations because of commercial fishing interests. Yes, mistakes have been made in the past, and too many invasives have been introduced, but that does not invalidate current practice.



/Fisheries Biologist
 
2012-05-17 10:41:34 AM
0Icky0: Sounds suspiciously like a success story for a government department and a long list of regulations.

I demand equal time for free-market solutions!


Not only that, it's protecting the industry for future generations while also raising prices (making it more profitable)

Fishermen hate catch limits, but unless you're going to pick the tree clean what are you supposed to do? Ain;t too many in america looking foward to eating jellyfish, because fish populations went extinct.
 
2012-05-17 10:49:45 AM
soooo... how're the menhaden doing?
 
2012-05-17 10:59:51 AM

sammyk: RoyFokker'sGhost: CygnusDarius: Mmm, Salmon.

Yeah, never mind the fact that any salmon caught in California waters is actually farm spawned and raised. We've damed up every river outlet to provide hydro-electric power; so there's no way for the salmon to return to their natural spawning grounds.

Want to know how I know thart you have no idea of what you speak?

Don't folks like you ever quickly google for maybe just for a few seconds before you make yourself look like a complete jackass?

 
2012-05-17 11:03:00 AM
Oops, sorry sammyk. That was for RoyFokker'sGhost instead.
 
2012-05-17 11:07:17 AM

TyrantII: Fishermen hate catch limits, but unless you're going to pick the tree clean what are you supposed to do? Ain;t too many in america looking foward to eating jellyfish, because fish populations went extinct.


Tragedy of the Commons defined.

One way to help in this regard is to break areas up into defined parcels (or allotments) where each commercial interest gets one area to lease without pressure from commercial competition. Of course, this works best when all allotments can be deemed equal, which is very difficult to do.

It is kind of the model that the Public Land Agencies have moved to for grazing on federal land. Works pretty well for the most part.
 
2012-05-17 11:10:04 AM
Hot damn do I love a good fish fry! Mmmmm tartar sauce....
 
2012-05-17 11:28:55 AM

HeadLever: TyrantII: Fishermen hate catch limits, but unless you're going to pick the tree clean what are you supposed to do? Ain;t too many in america looking foward to eating jellyfish, because fish populations went extinct.

Tragedy of the Commons defined.

One way to help in this regard is to break areas up into defined parcels (or allotments) where each commercial interest gets one area to lease without pressure from commercial competition. Of course, this works best when all allotments can be deemed equal, which is very difficult to do.

It is kind of the model that the Public Land Agencies have moved to for grazing on federal land. Works pretty well for the most part.


The parcels don't need to be deemed equal. Auction off the fishing rights in the parcels and the more valuable ones will sell for more. If you want to do some set-asides for small businesses or women & minority owned enterprises, OK.
 
2012-05-17 11:34:09 AM
HeadLever: TyrantII: Fishermen hate catch limits, but unless you're going to pick the tree clean what are you supposed to do? Ain;t too many in america looking foward to eating jellyfish, because fish populations went extinct.

Tragedy of the Commons defined.

One way to help in this regard is to break areas up into defined parcels (or allotments) where each commercial interest gets one area to lease without pressure from commercial competition. Of course, this works best when all allotments can be deemed equal, which is very difficult to do.

It is kind of the model that the Public Land Agencies have moved to for grazing on federal land. Works pretty well for the most part.


Biggest problem I've read is things tend to digress into problems like with have with taxi-cabs. Medallions become very expensive because of their limited availability, which means the people with the most money / market power end up controlling them. So, joe small business loses and the industry trends towards large players and leased workers making depressed wages.

And the second you try to impose a fix on that you get astroturf "communism/free market wargable" and the big interest lobby for no change.

We need limits to protect these resources, but we also need to find a way not to allow the concentration that inevitably happens.

Truly, this is one problem that has no free market solution, unless no fish is fine with you.

/not with me
//fine with the 2012'er Jesus freaks
 
jvl
2012-05-17 11:48:22 AM

RoyFokker'sGhost: Crazy talk ....


9/10

One point deducted for including too many falsehoods which kind of gives it away.
 
2012-05-17 11:48:25 AM

TyrantII: Medallions become very expensive because of their limited availability, which means the people with the most money / market power end up controlling them.


Not really, typically smaller buisnesses have much smaller overhead and can be much more efficient at what they do than the bigger companies. Everything else being equal, the smaller outfits (especially the local ones) would likely have a better chance at bidding these. If this doesn't work, you can put in a 10-year lottery system with a negotiated price. There are many ways to work around this.

Truly, this is one problem that has no free market solution,

I would not say that as the free market principals can definatly be used to the advantage of this system. Just because you may need regulation does not mean that you need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
 
2012-05-17 11:59:11 AM
HeadLever: TyrantII: Medallions become very expensive because of their limited availability, which means the people with the most money / market power end up controlling them.

Not really, typically smaller buisnesses have much smaller overhead and can be much more efficient at what they do than the bigger companies. Everything else being equal, the smaller outfits (especially the local ones) would likely have a better chance at bidding these. If this doesn't work, you can put in a 10-year lottery system with a negotiated price. There are many ways to work around this.

Truly, this is one problem that has no free market solution,

I would not say that as the free market principals can definatly be used to the advantage of this system. Just because you may need regulation does not mean that you need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.


True, but today free market = no regulations. Adam Smith would disagree, but the idea of Capitalism has been perverted into something a bit different than what it used to be. Economic Darwinism is a better term.
 
2012-05-17 12:08:39 PM

TyrantII: True, but today free market = no regulations. Adam Smith would disagree,


As would I. Using a perverted concept and expounding on it does not help your argument. In fact, it makes said argument part of the problem as you come off condecending and unwilling to recognize the economic reality. Instead you are attempting to make it a poltical point intended to score points with 'your side'.

Yes there are dumbasses on each side that really thinks this way, but lending legitimacy to these arguments is not helping our divided political climate.
 
2012-05-17 12:19:32 PM

Travis_Bickle: Bladel: Wonder if we'll ever see Atlantic Cod on the menu again...

Saw "How it's made" the other day. They were shipping frozen Chinese cod all the way to Nova Scotia to process it. That's 19000 km, 6000 km of it by truck.

All to make fish sticks.


Some people happen to love fish sticks

tagsgf.com
 
2012-05-17 12:34:36 PM
I went fishing for the first time in about 15 years a few weeks ago. Sat on a boat, didn't catch a damn thing, got a sun burn, and drank a lot of beer.

It was awesome. Wife won't let me have a boat, though.
 
2012-05-17 12:46:50 PM
I demand equal time for free-market solutions!

Fish farms.

They are part of the solution, as the demand for fish hasnt dropped (AFAIK). But farm raised fish/shrimp/etc replaces the need to trawl the ocean.
 
2012-05-17 12:52:34 PM
TyrantIl

Truly, this is one problem that has no free market solution, unless no fish is fine with you.

Property rights. If people owned the parcels of ocean/river, they can control the fishing themselves. There would be some overfishing, but in most cases, the long term value of the parcel depends on not allowing overfishing in it.
 
2012-05-17 01:25:52 PM
Tjos Weel: TyrantIl

Truly, this is one problem that has no free market solution, unless no fish is fine with you.

Property rights. If people owned the parcels of ocean/river, they can control the fishing themselves. There would be some overfishing, but in most cases, the long term value of the parcel depends on not allowing overfishing in it.


Yeah, but can you name me a company that is worried about long term valuation of a resource (not funded by james cameron). There's less immediate profits to be had in sustainable development then mining a resource outright. Only when the resource gets so scarce as to find a sustainable way to get it do companies start to spend money on the long game. Plus policing property rights on the ocean, of a mobile resrouce, is going to be an expensive nightmare.

I agree with you, but it seems time and again markets don't work that way. Especially contemporary markets driven by quarterly profits. Once industries are entrenched, the trend is towards price reduction, volume sales and efficiency of size (cost cutting). I don't see that trend changing anytime soon. That's awesome when you have a lot of small players as it breeds innovation, but it won't last long.

Honestly, I just have a hard time coming up with how you reconcile "too big to fail" with "punishing the successful". It seems to be the most important policy problem of our generation, and it's popping up everywhere.
 
2012-05-17 01:54:22 PM

TyrantII: Yeah, but can you name me a company that is worried about long term valuation of a resource


Just about every timber company in the US and Canada.

Only when the resource gets so scarce as to find a sustainable way to get it do companies start to spend money on the long game.

Last time I looked, trees really aren't that scarce.

Here is a good white paper on how this focus is shifting with regard to this industry.
 
2012-05-17 02:34:36 PM

Tjos Weel: I demand equal time for free-market solutions!

Fish farms.

They are part of the solution, as the demand for fish hasnt dropped (AFAIK). But farm raised fish/shrimp/etc replaces the need to trawl the ocean.


Some farmed fish (all farmed salmon, non-American farmed tilapia, among others) are real bad for the environment. Some farmed fish (oysters, clams, mussels, scallops) are actually good for the environment since they filter the water. Others are neutral (US farmed trout and tilapia).
 
2012-05-17 02:37:40 PM

HeadLever: TyrantII: Yeah, but can you name me a company that is worried about long term valuation of a resource

Just about every timber company in the US and Canada.

Only when the resource gets so scarce as to find a sustainable way to get it do companies start to spend money on the long game.

Last time I looked, trees really aren't that scarce.

Here is a good white paper on how this focus is shifting with regard to this industry.



Ranching and farming companies also work like this. They've got x acres and if they use the land efficiently (crop rotation, proper irrigation, rotating the feeding areas of the cattle, inter alia), said land is the gift that keeps on giving. Yes, they could make more for a year or two by over-using the land beyond its natural capacity, but then they're screwed. They don't screw themselves.
 
2012-05-17 03:03:16 PM

HopScotchNSoda: Ranching and farming companies also work like this.


As a person whose extended family is 6th generation ranchers on the same spread in the middle of nowhere dominated by Public Land, I'll give this post a thumbs up.
 
2012-05-17 03:19:33 PM

HeadLever: HopScotchNSoda: Ranching and farming companies also work like this.

As a person whose extended family is 6th generation ranchers on the same spread in the middle of nowhere dominated by Public Land, I'll give this post a thumbs up.


I am just going to guess that they are racist and Republican. I am going to also guess that you are not. And that you will be mad that I posted this. How did I do?
 
2012-05-17 03:30:38 PM

KnowEyeInnTeem: I am just going to guess that they are racist and Republican. I am going to also guess that you are not. And that you will be mad that I posted this. How did I do?


Some right, some wrong.

Republican? I would say Conservative more than Repulican. There was not much love for Bush and even less for Romney. Clinton was by far the worst, though.

Racist? Not really. They are too busy and isolated to really be worried about racial socioeconomical impacts to thier life.

Me? I am a conservative as well. Generally vote R. Racist? no.

Mad that you posted a buch of guesses at political views? Why?

Your final tally: Correct - 2; Wrong - 3
 
2012-05-17 03:37:25 PM

HeadLever: KnowEyeInnTeem: I am just going to guess that they are racist and Republican. I am going to also guess that you are not. And that you will be mad that I posted this. How did I do?

Some right, some wrong.

Republican? I would say Conservative more than Repulican. There was not much love for Bush and even less for Romney. Clinton was by far the worst, though.

Racist? Not really. They are too busy and isolated to really be worried about racial socioeconomical impacts to thier life.

Me? I am a conservative as well. Generally vote R. Racist? no.

Mad that you posted a buch of guesses at political views? Why?

Your final tally: Correct - 2; Wrong - 3


Rational Republican? If I could get a sample of your hair and a photo, I could probably win a prize. But seriously, your response is refreshing.
 
2012-05-17 03:45:29 PM
KnowEyeInnTeem:

Rational Republican? If I could get a sample of your hair and a photo, I could probably win a prize. But seriously, your response is refreshing.


+1

I just fear your knowledgeable response to the issue will fall on death ears. Seems too.... rational. Too often Conservative != Republican anymore. The radicals in both parties need to be beat back with clubs. Unfortunately one party is a tad more rabid than the other atm, which amusingly (but unfortunately) leads to disunion.

Anyways, I have heard some grumbling of "large ranchers" dominating the system from people who probably aren't large ranchers. But if the system is a necessary evil and protects the resource while allowing profitable production of wealth, what ya going to do? Gonna give that a read, thanks!
 
2012-05-17 04:09:56 PM

KnowEyeInnTeem: Rational Republican?


As much as I would like to make fun of this, I really do feel that the party leaders are wandering in a wilderness and really have lost their way. However, if you want to really get below the surface of this dichotomy that I feel is taking place in the conservative movement, this is a good place to start

Most of us 'redneck' conservatives know that the republican establishment really does not have our best interest at heart. In this regard, it is somewhat of an uneasy alliance. If the Democrats were smart, they could really pounce on this, but that would take genuine Blue Dog Democrat at the national level that would kick someone that mentioned 'clinging to guns and religion' right in the teeth. Sadly, as we seen in the last election, mainstreams Dems are not too tolerant to differing ideas from these folks.

The biggest issue for these folks can be exemplified by the fact that Bruce Babbit and Clinton pretty much destroyed the Democratic party here in the intermountain west with his retarded environmental policies. Many will never vote democrat for the rest of thier life because of the policies he enacted. Overall, this memory is finallly starting to recede some, and some places democrats are finally starting to gain a toehold again, especially at the local and state levels. Some of this is also thanks to many of the environmenal groups finally starting to figure out that public lands grazing, mining and logging are not always a bad thing. Some are even starting to *gasp* work with these folks instead of always taking them to court and litigating over everthing. There is still some major pain in the ass groups out here like Western Watersheds Project and Center for Biological Diversity, but they seem to have a litttle less influence as before.

/Sorry for the long rant, but hopefully, it give a little insight into us blue collar/redneck conservatives.
 
2012-05-17 04:27:01 PM

TyrantII: Anyways, I have heard some grumbling of "large ranchers" dominating the system from people who probably aren't large ranchers.


I am not aware of that as most allotments are seperated and there is really no overlap of grazing. The biggest problem that we have now is the Hobby Ranchers that go in a buy these ranches for millions of dollars so they can have thier little paridise. They really have no clue of how a ranch works, but they don't really care so long as they can be phographed on their horse in front of some cows in a pretty setting. When they get tired of they they subdivide the property.

For the Family Rancher the tempation to sell out for millions and millions of dollars is a very large temptation. It requires a certain level of..... let's call it stubborness.... for them to stay. Some of the environmenal groups are finally starting to figure out if they they make these folks lives a living hell, they may just end up with a pretty ranch becoming another pile of houses. They are starting to find that maybe they should be attempting to do what they can to keep these folks in buisness.

It is a refreshing change, but sadly, not all of the environmenal groups subscribe to this line of thought.
 
2012-05-17 06:21:20 PM

RoyFokker'sGhost: CygnusDarius: Mmm, Salmon.

Yeah, never mind the fact that any salmon caught in California waters is actually farm spawned and raised. We've damed up every river outlet to provide hydro-electric power; so there's no way for the salmon to return to their natural spawning grounds. There's a canal/lock system for the dams that channels returning salmon into catch pools. There, the milt (sperm) and roe (eggs) are harvested by hand and mixed together in concrete spawning ponds. The little guys hatch, live in the concrete ponds for a while, then get sent back towards the ocean. If you're catching wild salmon, you can tell a Californa chinook/king/coho from an Oregon or Washington breed because the bottom fins on the California fish are underdeveloped and worn down from scraping against the concrete all day for a couple months.

Also, some freshwater fish are endangered because some morons in the CA Dept. of Fish & Game thought it would be a great idea to bring Norther Pike into some of the deeper lakes to encourage sportfishing. The pike ended up pretty much devouring anything remotely aquatic in the lake: fish, amphibians, whatever. Sportfishing of pike never caught on big outside of the Great Lake states, so the DFG decided to get rid of the pike by using a poison called Rotanone ( gill constrictant, which means the fish suffocate in the water). The funny thing about Rotanone is, it becomes less effective the deeper and colder the water gets. Pike live near the bottom of deep, cold lakes. So, the Rotanone killed off any fish that the pike hadn't already eaten in the upper parts of the lake, while the pike stayed just fine and ate smaller spawnlings and bottom dwelling fish. So, there are lakes in California that are overrun by a large, voracious, predatory species. preventing any kind of balanced ecosystem to return.

But, that's what you get when you have a government department responsible for overseeing and preserving hunting and fishing that's run entirely by political appointees with zero knowledge or experience in how the environment actually works.


And even you don't, you get industry dumping in the water and massive overfishing anyways.

I'll take the dnr, thanks.
 
Displayed 45 of 45 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report