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(Wired)   Apparently the entire Oracle/Google Court case is one big "Intro to Java" class   (wired.com) divider line 50
    More: Amusing, Oracle, Google, Java, court cases, presentations, statutory damages, Java API  
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2759 clicks; posted to Geek » on 16 May 2012 at 4:32 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-16 03:08:37 PM  
But Judge Alsup wasn't convinced. He told the court he had learned to code in Java for the trial - implying that he knew other languages as well - and he said that he had written some of the infringing code at least a hundred times since Oracle filed its suit in August 2010. "I can do it. You can do it. It's so simple," he said, adding that it takes less than five minutes. Then looked directly at Boies. "You're one of the best lawyers in America - how can you make that argument?" he demanded.

In other news, Oracle sues Judge Alsup for copyright infringement.
 
2012-05-16 03:17:47 PM  
You know, good on that judge. It's rare that you hear about a judge doing something like actually learning a programming language to be able to deal with a big suit involving that language.
 
2012-05-16 03:40:34 PM  
Meanwhile, a jury of non-tech people sat nearby, praying for death.
 
2012-05-16 03:52:18 PM  
I've never been a big fan of Oracle. Their ridiculous licensing schemes, their vague support of virtualization (only to change the licensing again when people began virtualizing without their blessing), to their path of ruining MySQL....but now they're acting like SCO suing linux which makes me hate them even more.
 
2012-05-16 04:36:18 PM  

slayer199: I've never been a big fan of Oracle. Their ridiculous licensing schemes, their vague support of virtualization (only to change the licensing again when people began virtualizing without their blessing), to their path of ruining MySQL....but now they're acting like SCO suing linux which makes me hate them even more.


You know, kind of funny that you bring up SCO... Guess who is arguing on Oracle's behalf?
 
2012-05-16 04:53:20 PM  

slayer199: ...to their path of ruining MySQL....


What have they done to MySQL?
 
2012-05-16 04:54:48 PM  

slayer199: I've never been a big fan of Oracle. Their ridiculous licensing schemes, their vague support of virtualization (only to change the licensing again when people began virtualizing without their blessing), to their path of ruining MySQL....but now they're acting like SCO suing linux which makes me hate them even more.


Oracle should have been forced to sell off MySQL as a condition of buying Sun.
 
2012-05-16 05:18:14 PM  
Goddammit so much, Oracle, you useless carbuncle on the taint of technology. Have you actually done anything worthwhile at all?
 
2012-05-16 05:21:05 PM  

blahpers: Goddammit so much, Oracle, you useless carbuncle on the taint of technology. Have you actually done anything worthwhile at all?


Aside from killing Java?
 
2012-05-16 05:29:07 PM  

jagabaya: What have they done to MySQL?


It has been withering on the vine for years now. It still works, but it's not getting any better, while other (free) competitors are getting better.
 
2012-05-16 05:29:48 PM  
First thing to know about Java:

Don't use it or Oracle will sue you.
 
2012-05-16 05:46:46 PM  

RexTalionis: But Judge Alsup wasn't convinced. He told the court he had learned to code in Java for the trial - implying that he knew other languages as well - and he said that he had written some of the infringing code at least a hundred times since Oracle filed its suit in August 2010. "I can do it. You can do it. It's so simple," he said, adding that it takes less than five minutes. Then looked directly at Boies. "You're one of the best lawyers in America - how can you make that argument?" he demanded.

In other news, Oracle sues Judge Alsup for copyright infringement.


That is 10000 kinds of awesome.

This sort of self-enlightenment gives me hope that perhaps judges will also finally start becoming aware of how completely f*cked up out patent system is when it comes to computer technology in general. (*cough*oneclickshopping*cough*).
 
2012-05-16 05:57:29 PM  

jonny_q: jagabaya: What have they done to MySQL?

It has been withering on the vine for years now. It still works, but it's not getting any better, while other (free) competitors are getting better.


Postgres has always been better.
 
2012-05-16 06:09:48 PM  

MrEricSir: blahpers: Goddammit so much, Oracle, you useless carbuncle on the taint of technology. Have you actually done anything worthwhile at all?

Aside from killing Java?


What's extra awesome about this whole thing is that a few nerds with *far* too much time on their hands decided to re-write Android's bits in C#, calling the ported OS "XobotOS". You know, the other language that was considered for Android back in 2005 but turned down because Microsoft. The result was noticeable improvement in speed on the devices with the C# version. It gave direct graphics access, better battery life, and eliminated some of the code Google is now being sued over.

Engadget Story

So, just to get this straight, if Google had gotten over the Microsoft factor and used C# to begin with, they would have a better, faster OS with no legal headaches.

You couldn't write this crap if you tried. So many fark-ups on each side... it's ridiculous.

/Java would decrease in usage overnight if the Microsoft C# compiler became open-source
 
2012-05-16 06:16:44 PM  

Rent Party: jonny_q: jagabaya: What have they done to MySQL?

It has been withering on the vine for years now. It still works, but it's not getting any better, while other (free) competitors are getting better.

Postgres has always been better.


...and suddenly I'm back on Slashdot, and it's 1999. Thanks a lot; I had a lot of very good sex in 1999.
 
2012-05-16 06:18:39 PM  

blackminded: Rent Party: jonny_q: jagabaya: What have they done to MySQL?

It has been withering on the vine for years now. It still works, but it's not getting any better, while other (free) competitors are getting better.

Postgres has always been better.

...and suddenly I'm back on Slashdot, and it's 1999. Thanks a lot; I had a lot of very good sex in 1999.


You were there! Dude! I was at that show!
 
2012-05-16 06:23:05 PM  

Marine1: The result was noticeable improvement in speed on the devices with the C# version.


Gee, imagine what they could have done if they used native code!

Running a VM on a wimpy computer (like a phone) is a ridiculously stupid idea in the first place. Not one of Google's finer moments.
 
2012-05-16 06:35:14 PM  

MrEricSir: Marine1: The result was noticeable improvement in speed on the devices with the C# version.

Gee, imagine what they could have done if they used native code!

Running a VM on a wimpy computer (like a phone) is a ridiculously stupid idea in the first place. Not one of Google's finer moments.


This also goes for Minecraft. Up until a few days ago, I thought Java made sense for Minecraft, because I thought it ran both the PC and Android clients.

Nope.

PC/Mac/Linux uses Java. iOS uses Objective-C. Android uses C++. The Xbox 360 version uses XNA and C#. In theory, a Windows Phone client would do the same. So they're running four separate languages, when C++ could probably run three out of those four different clients and do so much more efficiently. Seriously, I'm stunned how un-optimized Minecraft is... you can have a discrete video card just sitting there at idle temperature while your CPU is working its ass off at 65 celsius.
 
2012-05-16 06:36:36 PM  

blackminded: Rent Party: jonny_q: jagabaya: What have they done to MySQL?

It has been withering on the vine for years now. It still works, but it's not getting any better, while other (free) competitors are getting better.

Postgres has always been better.

...and suddenly I'm back on Slashdot, and it's 1999. Thanks a lot; I had a lot of very good sex in 1999.


No one who reads Slashdot has ever had sex.

No one.
 
2012-05-16 06:40:02 PM  

Marine1: No one who reads Slashdot has ever had sex.


I've had sex. Mind, this was after I stopped reading /.


/You to can be saved!
 
2012-05-16 06:40:46 PM  

jagabaya: What have they done to MySQL?


MySQL has done nothing good since Oracle bought Sun. In the meantime, forks like MariaDB (based off the 5.1 code and released as a GNU GPL) are getting more attention from LAMP (Linux Apache MySQL PHP) developers for something lighter and quicker and without the BS that comes with Oracle.

Tyrone Slothrop: Oracle should have been forced to sell off MySQL as a condition of buying Sun.


Totally agree with that. As bloodthirsty as Sun is regarding their code (see the Google case regarding Java APIs), how can anyone trust Oracle when it comes to MySQL?
 
2012-05-16 06:48:09 PM  

Marine1: No one who reads Slashdot has ever had sex.

No one.


I lost my virginity after I quit going to Slashdot.

Not immediately after, and it wasn't a causational relationship, but still, one of those things happened and then the other did.
 
2012-05-16 06:58:13 PM  

jonny_q: jagabaya: What have they done to MySQL?

It has been withering on the vine for years now. It still works, but it's not getting any better, while other (free) competitors are getting better.


PostgreSQL
 
2012-05-16 07:01:17 PM  

The_Time_Master: jonny_q: jagabaya: What have they done to MySQL?

It has been withering on the vine for years now. It still works, but it's not getting any better, while other (free) competitors are getting better.

PostgreSQL


It's always been better.
 
2012-05-16 07:06:49 PM  
Time to stick to Freebasic with a LOLcode wrapper, thanks.
 
2012-05-16 07:09:42 PM  

MrEricSir: blahpers: Goddammit so much, Oracle, you useless carbuncle on the taint of technology. Have you actually done anything worthwhile at all?

Aside from killing Java?


And they might have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for those pesky kids and their Davlik JVM.

Most of the evil of Java stems from the gawdawful mess that is the AWT/Swing desktop APIs and the broken Java security model. Android/Davlik doesn't use either.
 
2012-05-16 07:17:34 PM  

Rent Party: The_Time_Master: jonny_q: jagabaya: What have they done to MySQL?

It has been withering on the vine for years now. It still works, but it's not getting any better, while other (free) competitors are getting better.

PostgreSQL

It's always been better.


Nothing will ever be better than NoSQL.

/postgres for the win
 
2012-05-16 07:23:52 PM  
I remember the old days before Flash came along there were these things called Java applets and we tried to use them to play games and stuff in our web browsers. It was truly a dark time.
 
2012-05-16 07:32:40 PM  
IoSaturnalia
the broken Java security model

What's the problem with that?
 
2012-05-16 07:55:43 PM  

The Voice of Doom: IoSaturnalia
the broken Java security model

What's the problem with that?


'Broken' may be too harsh. For what it is, it works. It feels like a bolted-on afterthought, though. Bill Joy wasn't thinking 'security' back in 1990 - it was a much more innocent age.

In Android, if you need to go somewhere (file system, bluetooth, address book etc), you declare it in the manifest. The user gets to decide whether you program runs or not with the permissions it asks for.

In Java desktop, an application just rocks on its merry way - if a SecurityException is thrown because the user's IT depatment set up the JVM in a restricted runtime environment and the app wants to climb out of its sandbox, it just breaks.

In this case, the old saw about "tis better to beg forgiveness than to ask for permission" is exactly backwards.
 
2012-05-16 08:05:51 PM  

Marine1: MrEricSir: Marine1: The result was noticeable improvement in speed on the devices with the C# version.

Gee, imagine what they could have done if they used native code!

Running a VM on a wimpy computer (like a phone) is a ridiculously stupid idea in the first place. Not one of Google's finer moments.

This also goes for Minecraft. Up until a few days ago, I thought Java made sense for Minecraft, because I thought it ran both the PC and Android clients.

Nope.

PC/Mac/Linux uses Java. iOS uses Objective-C. Android uses C++. The Xbox 360 version uses XNA and C#. In theory, a Windows Phone client would do the same. So they're running four separate languages, when C++ could probably run three out of those four different clients and do so much more efficiently. Seriously, I'm stunned how un-optimized Minecraft is... you can have a discrete video card just sitting there at idle temperature while your CPU is working its ass off at 65 celsius.


Wasn't Minecraft effectively written by one guy with way too much time on his hands? That might explain a ton.
 
2012-05-16 08:40:58 PM  

TheBlackrose: slayer199: I've never been a big fan of Oracle. Their ridiculous licensing schemes, their vague support of virtualization (only to change the licensing again when people began virtualizing without their blessing), to their path of ruining MySQL....but now they're acting like SCO suing linux which makes me hate them even more.

You know, kind of funny that you bring up SCO... Guess who is arguing on Oracle's behalf?


Seriously. When I say his name for the first time in this case, I had to do a major double-take. I was really hoping that the SCO thing killed his career. Best lawyers in America? What?!
 
2012-05-16 08:46:13 PM  

netweavr: Marine1: MrEricSir: Marine1: The result was noticeable improvement in speed on the devices with the C# version.

Gee, imagine what they could have done if they used native code!

Running a VM on a wimpy computer (like a phone) is a ridiculously stupid idea in the first place. Not one of Google's finer moments.

This also goes for Minecraft. Up until a few days ago, I thought Java made sense for Minecraft, because I thought it ran both the PC and Android clients.

Nope.

PC/Mac/Linux uses Java. iOS uses Objective-C. Android uses C++. The Xbox 360 version uses XNA and C#. In theory, a Windows Phone client would do the same. So they're running four separate languages, when C++ could probably run three out of those four different clients and do so much more efficiently. Seriously, I'm stunned how un-optimized Minecraft is... you can have a discrete video card just sitting there at idle temperature while your CPU is working its ass off at 65 celsius.

Wasn't Minecraft effectively written by one guy with way too much time on his hands? That might explain a ton.


I would have bought that excuse when Notch was doing it himself. Now he's got millions pouring in with no advertising overhead. He also didn't have to risk any real capital to establish the brand - people were paying him for his alphas and betas. Given those factors and the insane popularity of the game, Mojang needs to incorporate the code into one language and one branch. It's just foolish to not do so... more money spent and less performance. If they don't have the resources to do so, I want to know just how big Notch's hookers n' blow budget is.
 
2012-05-16 09:27:19 PM  

Rincewind53: You know, good on that judge. It's rare that you hear about a judge doing something like actually learning a programming language to be able to deal with a big suit involving that language.


Activist judge
 
2012-05-16 09:27:54 PM  
Google's approach seems to be to let someone else do the hard work developing a technology, swoop in, copy it, and make the cash.

In the 1990's if Microsoft did that, geeks said it was bad. Microsoft included functionality of a third party product in their operating system? Kill Microsoft!

Today geeks seem to think it's totally cool and awesome. Google takes left / right and center - and Yay Google!

As far as I can tell, people are okay with Google doing this because they give other people's hard work away for free and Microsoft charged. In both cases the original creator gets screwed.

I guess it's better than the Apple case, where they copy something and then claim that it's new and revolutionary.
 
2012-05-16 09:38:09 PM  

narkor: Google's approach seems to be to let someone else do the hard work developing a technology, swoop in, copy it, and make the cash.


Um, no. Most ideas are evolutionary, and that's most of what Google, Microsoft, Apple, etc. spend their efforts on. All three companies spend a fortune on R&D, and most of that is on small things rather than big, risky innovation. That's to be expected, and if it weren't for that we'd still all be using Unix 1.0 and 300 baud modems.

What Google has done here is no different than if I wrote my own C++ implementation. Cry all you want about it not being original, it doesn't matter. There's no need to reinvent the wheel when you can just build a wheel.

As far as I can tell, people are okay with Google doing this because they give other people's hard work away for free and Microsoft charged. In both cases the original creator gets screwed.

I'll buy that argument when I see Gosling spanging on a street corner.
 
2012-05-17 01:08:31 AM  

Marine1: /Java would decrease in usage overnight if the Microsoft C# compiler became open-source



There are reasons why you should never rely on proprietary Microsoft technology. No matter how awesome it is, they will find a way to screw it up and leave you out in the cold
 
2012-05-17 08:57:49 AM  

Rent Party: jonny_q: jagabaya: What have they done to MySQL?

It has been withering on the vine for years now. It still works, but it's not getting any better, while other (free) competitors are getting better.

Postgres has always been better.


Gah, I hate Postgres with the fury of a thousand suns.

Know what? The vast majority of the time, SQL Server Express will do whatever job you need done with your free DBMS.
 
2012-05-17 09:14:39 AM  

ScreamingHangover: Marine1: /Java would decrease in usage overnight if the Microsoft C# compiler became open-source


There are reasons why you should never rely on proprietary Microsoft technology. No matter how awesome it is, they will find a way to screw it up and leave you out in the cold


They signed a legally-binding promise to not shut off C#. Mono is available if you want to use that.

And I'd argue leaving you out in the cold is exactly what Oracle has done with Java. But, you know, big bad Microsoft.
 
2012-05-17 09:39:12 AM  

TheBlackrose: slayer199: I've never been a big fan of Oracle. Their ridiculous licensing schemes, their vague support of virtualization (only to change the licensing again when people began virtualizing without their blessing), to their path of ruining MySQL....but now they're acting like SCO suing linux which makes me hate them even more.

You know, kind of funny that you bring up SCO... Guess who is arguing on Oracle's behalf?


The corpse of Darl McBride?
 
2012-05-17 09:42:49 AM  

meanmutton: Rent Party: jonny_q: jagabaya: What have they done to MySQL?

It has been withering on the vine for years now. It still works, but it's not getting any better, while other (free) competitors are getting better.

Postgres has always been better.

Gah, I hate Postgres with the fury of a thousand suns.

Know what? The vast majority of the time, SQL Server Express will do whatever job you need done with your free DBMS.


Well, except run on my virtualized Linux/Sun/BSD platforms. And not tie me into a MS platform.

But other than that, yeah. MS Access will probably work fine for you, too.
 
2012-05-17 09:57:14 AM  
Oracle sounds like the EA or Monsanto of the enterprise software industry, including "special Oracle-patented" code that a trial judge could learn to write. Next thing you know, Monsanto will acquire Oracle in the weirdest merger in history.
 
2012-05-17 11:25:36 AM  

HeartBurnKid: First thing to know about Java:

Don't use it or Oracle will sue you.


Meanwhile your average Neckbeard McRageTears is still freaking out about Mono (.Net for Linux and Mac) because Microsoft might sue sometime in the indeterminate dystopian future.

The real takeaway from all this: computer programming is so easy a judge could do it!
 
2012-05-17 11:35:44 AM  

mccallcl: HeartBurnKid: First thing to know about Java:

Don't use it or Oracle will sue you.

Meanwhile your average Neckbeard McRageTears is still freaking out about Mono (.Net for Linux and Mac) because Microsoft might sue sometime in the indeterminate dystopian future.

The real takeaway from all this: computer programming is so easy a judge could do it!


Farking this. Both parts.
 
2012-05-17 01:33:28 PM  

mccallcl: HeartBurnKid: First thing to know about Java:

Don't use it or Oracle will sue you.

Meanwhile your average Neckbeard McRageTears is still freaking out about Mono (.Net for Linux and Mac) because Microsoft might sue sometime in the indeterminate dystopian future.

The real takeaway from all this: computer programming is so easy a judge could do it!


Well yeah, programming itself is simplistic. Design is the biatch.
 
2012-05-17 02:26:42 PM  

netweavr: mccallcl: HeartBurnKid: First thing to know about Java:

Don't use it or Oracle will sue you.

Meanwhile your average Neckbeard McRageTears is still freaking out about Mono (.Net for Linux and Mac) because Microsoft might sue sometime in the indeterminate dystopian future.

The real takeaway from all this: computer programming is so easy a judge could do it!

Well yeah, programming itself is simplistic. Design is the biatch.


Domain expertise is a biatch. Find me a guy with knowledge in the specific problem domain I'm looking at and I can teach him to code sufficiently well to solve the problem. Trying to teach your average general programmer about weather patterns or hydrodynamics is a whole different level of problem.
 
2012-05-17 05:44:58 PM  

mccallcl: HeartBurnKid: First thing to know about Java:

Don't use it or Oracle will sue you.

Meanwhile your average Neckbeard McRageTears is still freaking out about Mono (.Net for Linux and Mac) because Microsoft might sue sometime in the indeterminate dystopian future.

The real takeaway from all this: computer programming is so easy a judge could do it!


Also, hitting on this point again, what is it about Microsoft that makes the open-source community think they'll shut down C# for them?

They signed a legally-binding promise not to do so. Quite a few of the components that make .NET and C# run are ECMA standards, meaning anyone can use them. Mono has been used to create C#-coded projects that directly compete with Microsoft products. It's been 12 years and no actual evidence of plans to shut down other CLI projects have become evident.

So can we PLEASE stop that idiotic talk?
 
2012-05-17 09:06:57 PM  

Marine1: ScreamingHangover: Marine1: /Java would decrease in usage overnight if the Microsoft C# compiler became open-source


There are reasons why you should never rely on proprietary Microsoft technology. No matter how awesome it is, they will find a way to screw it up and leave you out in the cold

They signed a legally-binding promise to not shut off C#. Mono is available if you want to use that.

And I'd argue leaving you out in the cold is exactly what Oracle has done with Java. But, you know, big bad Microsoft.


I don't disagree with you. Personally, I wouldn't mind moving to C#, however, I need commercial grade application servers and with C#, you're pretty much locked into one vendor. At least with Java I can pick and choose between Apache, JBoss, Websphere, Weblogic, Google App Engine, etc...

I don't trust Ellison anymore than I trust Microsoft, but with Java you at least have IBM, Redhat, Google, and the Apache foundation looking over Oracle's shoulder.
 
2012-05-18 01:05:13 AM  
mccallcl : The real takeaway from all this: computer programming is so easy a judge could do it!

You start with something simple, but then it gets really complex. This particular example was simple.

I'll use cooking as an analogy.

Basically, the code in question is the equivalent of baking a potato.

Hello World programs are the equivalent of making a PB&J Sandwich.

#!perl
print "hello world";

// I am currently writing lasagna

// Some people write device drivers in assembly, that shiat isn't easy.
 
2012-05-18 02:17:59 PM  

Marine1: mccallcl: HeartBurnKid: First thing to know about Java:

Don't use it or Oracle will sue you.

Meanwhile your average Neckbeard McRageTears is still freaking out about Mono (.Net for Linux and Mac) because Microsoft might sue sometime in the indeterminate dystopian future.

The real takeaway from all this: computer programming is so easy a judge could do it!

Also, hitting on this point again, what is it about Microsoft that makes the open-source community think they'll shut down C# for them?

They signed a legally-binding promise not to do so. Quite a few of the components that make .NET and C# run are ECMA standards, meaning anyone can use them. Mono has been used to create C#-coded projects that directly compete with Microsoft products. It's been 12 years and no actual evidence of plans to shut down other CLI projects have become evident.


Because Java never went away. C# was basically their own implicit admission that the embrace-extend-extinguish didn't work on Java (J++, J/Direct, etc). Some of the older neckbeards out there are still waiting for the other shoe to drop on this one but as you pointed out after 12 years it's probably not going to happen. So who knows.
 
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