If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Cracked)   Remember how the White folks stole all of the land from the Indians? Yeah, well about that   (cracked.com) divider line 165
    More: Interesting, Indians, East St. Louis, eastern seaboard, Mayflower, environmental scientist, Westerns, Plymouth Rock  
•       •       •

25796 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 May 2012 at 12:20 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



165 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Last | Show all
 
2012-05-16 04:01:57 AM
Interesting read. The pre-Plymouth plague I've heard about, but what actually was the disease?

Wikipedia suggests: The Aztecs called it cocoliztli, a hemorrhagic fever native to the Americas.
 
2012-05-16 08:36:57 AM

Sgygus: Interesting read. The pre-Plymouth plague I've heard about, but what actually was the disease?

Wikipedia suggests: The Aztecs called it cocoliztli, a hemorrhagic fever native to the Americas.


Whatever it was, I'm sure Paris Hilton was involved.
 
2012-05-16 08:58:39 AM
So... if white folks didn't land in America, 90% of the indigenous population still would have died off within a decade anyway, right subs?
 
2012-05-16 09:31:04 AM

Sgygus: Interesting read. The pre-Plymouth plague I've heard about, but what actually was the disease?

Wikipedia suggests: The Aztecs called it cocoliztli, a hemorrhagic fever native to the Americas.


Theres a variety of diseases that swept the continent - most notably small pox. Heres a (now not so new) book you might want to read, besides the often cited guns germs and steel.

Recent research shows this massive virgin field epidemic as wiping out a (relatively) populated Amazon. The previously deforested areas grew back and the temperature cooled.

btw, the first use of smallpox as a bioweapon is plausibly and arguably pulled back to Lord Amherst in the latter half of the 18th century, much later than this massive epidemic.
 
2012-05-16 09:33:46 AM
Columbus' arrival linked to carbon dioxide drop

"We have a massive reforestation event that's sequestering carbon ... coincident with the European arrival," said Nevle.

Tying together many different lines of evidence, Nevle estimated how much carbon all those new trees would have consumed. He says it was enough to account for most or all of the sudden drop in atmospheric carbon dioxide recorded in Antarctic ice during the 16th and 17th centuries. Such a depletion of a key greenhouse gas may have helped augment Europe's so-called Little Ice Age, centuries of cooler temperatures that followed the Middle Ages, Nevle's team has argued.

By the end of the 15th century, between 40 million and 100 million people are thought to have been living in the Americas. Many of them burned trees to make room for crops, leaving behind charcoal deposits that have been found in the soils of Mexico, Nicaragua and other countries.

About 500 years ago, this charcoal accumulation plummeted as the people themselves disappeared. Smallpox, diphtheria and other diseases from Europe ultimately wiped out as much as 90 percent of the indigenous population.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-05-16 09:40:15 AM
There were certainly plagues in the Americas just like anywhere else there were people, Subby is only partly correct. The North American cultures were not at their hight, but North America was hardly depopulated. If the Indians were all killed off by plagues who walked the Trail of Tears? Why was there an Indian Removal Act of 1830?
 
2012-05-16 09:54:09 AM

Sgygus: Interesting read. The pre-Plymouth plague I've heard about, but what actually was the disease?

Wikipedia suggests: The Aztecs called it cocoliztli, a hemorrhagic fever native to the Americas.


hmm. now i'm very curious about this plague. I wonder if there's independent verification on it?
 
2012-05-16 10:02:41 AM
Wow, revisionist history via Cracked. This is why Al Gore made the Internet.

Put me down the Occam's Razor of European diseases wiping out indigenous populations place.
 
2012-05-16 10:08:40 AM

Ennuipoet: Wow, revisionist history via Cracked. This is why Al Gore made the Internet.

Put me down the Occam's Razor of European diseases wiping out indigenous populations place.


i'm not sure what point you are trying to make. there have been several well documented plagues that hit the Americas before the European settlers stepped foot on the continent. there were also incidents of shocking violence and not a little bit of cannibalism (although that was mostly out in the southwest).

so it's very possible that the east coast native tribes were getting their asses kicked by a massive plague and we European types just got lucky as hell. lucky plus a significant tech advantage would have given us the edge. that said...I'd like more definitive proof than a Cracked article on the subject.
 
2012-05-16 10:25:13 AM
Yeah I do remember. And your blog sucks.
 
2012-05-16 10:28:48 AM
The book "1491", covered this pretty well.

I like the equivalence to the Europeans arriving post-Mad Max or post-Road. Pretty apropos
 
2012-05-16 10:33:27 AM
The idea that widespread disease killed off 90+% of the native population is mainstream among scholars. I'm surprised people think this is some sort of "revisionist" history. I think I actually learned this in high school some 20 years ago.
 
2012-05-16 10:33:34 AM

Weaver95: so it's very possible that the east coast native tribes were getting their asses kicked by a massive plague and we European types just got lucky as hell.


It's possible, but the most likely explanation not disproved by the facts at hand is the introduction of European diseases into the native population. Throughout history the truly destructive diseases, such as the Plague, came from outside the local population. If a Pre-Columbian disease ravaged the population it was native to the Western Hemisphere, and the native population should have some natural immunity. Yet populations from the tip of South America to Canada were destroyed in the same period European explorers arrived. There really is no compelling evidence the populations failed prior to Columbus' arrival.
 
2012-05-16 10:36:19 AM

usernameguy: I'm surprised people think this is some sort of "revisionist" history. I think I actually learned this in high school some 20 years ago.


I fail at reading comprehension, I read the article as intimating the disease was not brought by Europeans,when it was actually saying it was and colonist dealt only with the depleted populations. I withdraw my snarky "revisionist" comment.
 
2012-05-16 10:45:16 AM

Ennuipoet: Weaver95: so it's very possible that the east coast native tribes were getting their asses kicked by a massive plague and we European types just got lucky as hell.

It's possible, but the most likely explanation not disproved by the facts at hand is the introduction of European diseases into the native population. Throughout history the truly destructive diseases, such as the Plague, came from outside the local population. If a Pre-Columbian disease ravaged the population it was native to the Western Hemisphere, and the native population should have some natural immunity. Yet populations from the tip of South America to Canada were destroyed in the same period European explorers arrived. There really is no compelling evidence the populations failed prior to Columbus' arrival.


um..you might want to recheck that. *something* wiped out a lot of tribes right before the Europeans got here, and they didn't do it to themselves.
 
2012-05-16 11:45:14 AM
Let's look into the U.S.'s history of treaties shall we?
 
2012-05-16 11:46:08 AM

Weaver95:

um..you might want to recheck that. *something* wiped out a lot of tribes right before the Europeans got here, and they didn't do it to themselves.


Indian populations were already drastically reduced when the Mayflower landed in 1620, but that was 128 years after Columbus, and nearly a century after Verrazzano (and close to 700 years after the Vineland settlement). Even something as simple as the common cold, brought by Columbus' crew, could have caused a serious epidemic to populations that had no previous exposure to the virus. (We think of the cold as a nuisance, mainly because we are descended from the people who didn't die from it.)

There was a lot of communication and trade between early contact era Indian communities, so there was lots of opportunity for a virus to spread from one settlement to the next, moving faster than the European explorers. Even if the epidemic itself was not particularly virulent, it still had over a century to spread.

Imagine one sailor in 1492 with influenza infects a population of Caribs. A boat full of Caribs sail to Florida to escape the unmitigated dickishness of Columbus, and bring the disease with them. As the populations of southern Florida start collapsing, people flee to neighboring communities to escape, and bring the virus with them. (The exact same thing happened in Europe during the Plague.) Pretty soon, a whole continent full of people with no previous exposure to the disease ends up infected, and only those few who had a natural immunity are still around by the time the pilgrims show up.

(And that's not to mention smallpox, measles, tuberculosis, diphtheria, whooping cough, brought from Europe, and malaria, yellow fever, and denge from Africa.)
 
2012-05-16 12:22:52 PM
Thank God, now White Americans can sleep well knowing their ancestors did not rape and pillage and steal the land they now call their own.
 
2012-05-16 12:23:46 PM

Ennuipoet: Wow, revisionist history via Cracked. This is why Al Gore made the Internet.

Put me down the Occam's Razor of European diseases wiping out indigenous populations place.


SO VOTE REPUBLICAN.
 
2012-05-16 12:26:49 PM

intelligent comment below: Thank God, now White Americans can sleep well knowing their ancestors did not rape and pillage and steal the land they now call their own.


Actually that land belongs to the Chinese, who eschewed rape and pillaging in favor of getting us to trade it for plastic baubles.
 
2012-05-16 12:27:37 PM

vpb: There were certainly plagues in the Americas just like anywhere else there were people, Subby is only partly correct. The North American cultures were not at their hight, but North America was hardly depopulated. If the Indians were all killed off by plagues who walked the Trail of Tears? Why was there an Indian Removal Act of 1830?


Obviously not everyone was killed- no plague kills everybody- and three centuries after the plagues the population may have recovered somewhat, but when 90% of the population was killed off it is fair to say that the Americas were depopulated.
 
2012-05-16 12:32:07 PM

usernameguy: The idea that widespread disease killed off 90+% of the native population is mainstream among scholars. I'm surprised people think this is some sort of "revisionist" history. I think I actually learned this in high school some 20 years ago.


I learned this then too (though a bit more recently). The mainstream belief is indeed that widespread disease killed off 90+% of the native population.

What takes this idea out of the mainstream is its assertion of where those diseases came from. The mainstream idea is that these diseases came mostly from European settlers who had long since developed immunity to them. This idea claims that plagues native to the continent might have had more of an effect than the European diseases did.

None of this excuses the other shameful things the settlers and their descendants did: brutal wars, honorless treaties, relocations such as the Trail of Tears, and so on. But if the disease part was not so much the fault of the Europeans, then that may as well be told accurately: their sins are grave enough to not need distortion.
 
2012-05-16 12:32:08 PM

vpb: There were certainly plagues in the Americas just like anywhere else there were people, Subby is only partly correct. The North American cultures were not at their hight, but North America was hardly depopulated. If the Indians were all killed off by plagues who walked the Trail of Tears? Why was there an Indian Removal Act of 1830?


My great, great, great grandfather Stonesides for one. (one too many greats? not sure)
 
2012-05-16 12:32:30 PM
I think subby misunderstood. The white folks DID steal the land. They just had a pretty easy time of it b/c of the plagues.
 
2012-05-16 12:32:35 PM
The real mystery is where all the casino money goes.
 
2012-05-16 12:33:08 PM
Since the death of Mike Wallace, I turn to cracked.com for all my investigative journalism.
 
2012-05-16 12:33:28 PM
Cracked's attempt at history is amusing at best. Yes, there was a plague. No, that wasn't the only thing that caused settlers to steal the land. Read up on the betrayal the Puritans did to the natives.

In regards to Columbus: Yes, Viking discovered America long after the native peoples did. The Vikings were chasing the Picts.
 
2012-05-16 12:33:30 PM

FloydA: There was a lot of communication and trade between early contact era Indian communities, so there was lots of opportunity for a virus to spread from one settlement to the next, moving faster than the European explorers. Even if the epidemic itself was not particularly virulent, it still had over a century to spread.


If only President Iroquois would've SHUT. DOWN. EVERYTHING, we probably wouldn't be here today.
 
2012-05-16 12:34:44 PM
If you learn your history from Cracked then you deserve to be stupid.

Now, if you want REAL history, The History Channel is where its at! Did you know Chum Lee is the ancestor of an Ancient Alien?
 
2012-05-16 12:36:54 PM
It's crap like this that gives hunting a bad name.

/this, and Ted Nugent
 
2012-05-16 12:37:30 PM
And I am in the wrong thread....or am I?
 
2012-05-16 12:38:38 PM
So really, these plagues did some serious damage, then along comes the white man who twisted the knife, pushed it in deeper, and then covered the wounds with pox ridden blankets.
 
2012-05-16 12:39:14 PM

Corporate Self: If you learn your history from Cracked then you deserve to be stupid.

Now, if you want REAL history, The History Channel is where its at! Did you know Chum Lee is the ancestor of an Ancient Alien?


Maybe so, but Tennessee Tuxedo was from Earth.
 
2012-05-16 12:39:48 PM

Corporate Self: If you learn your history from Cracked then you deserve to be stupid.

Now, if you want REAL history, The History Channel is where its at! Did you know Chum Lee is the ancestor of an Ancient Alien?


Wrong.

The new prevailing theory is that Chumlee is actually the progenitor of all ancient aliens. And Chris Christie.
 
2012-05-16 12:40:42 PM

FloydA: Corporate Self: If you learn your history from Cracked then you deserve to be stupid.

Now, if you want REAL history, The History Channel is where its at! Did you know Chum Lee is the ancestor of an Ancient Alien?

Maybe so, but Tennessee Tuxedo was from Earth.


i'm not sure about chumley though.
 
2012-05-16 12:41:25 PM
I still don't get why Europeans are made to be villains when some Native populations were doing the very same thing.

Natives war with Natives and take their stuff...It's okay.

Europeans war with Natives and take their stuff....Horrible injustice.

I DO understand various aspects, especially later in history (wounded knee, trail of tears), that were horrendous actions taken by our country to finish the conquring of this country. But I DON'T get how Europeans comming here in the first place is so absolutely terrible.
 
2012-05-16 12:43:21 PM
Keep in mind that the Cracked article wouldn't focus on the betrayal of the native populations by the European settlers because, well, mainstream high school history does (at least did, when I passed through its doors). The point of the article is to round it out a bit. All that bad stuff early US settlers did (and all the bad stuff the US is still doing)? That's still there.

Another point the article is trying to make (maybe not too clearly) is that the plagues were possibly the tipping point that allowed for genocidal eradication by the European cultures (it tries to make the point two ways: citing the Vikings' failed colonization as evidence that native cultures had the warmaking power to protect themselves pre-plague, and citing the European colonists' failure to genocidally eradicate the cultures of Africa and India as evidence that numbers matter more than technological weapons advantage).

I've got at least three books on my reading list now. Thanks Cracked! You are disturbingly educational (like Daily Show!).
 
2012-05-16 12:43:42 PM
Huh, someone just read 1491...
 
2012-05-16 12:45:46 PM

Weaver95: Ennuipoet: Wow, revisionist history via Cracked. This is why Al Gore made the Internet.

Put me down the Occam's Razor of European diseases wiping out indigenous populations place.

i'm not sure what point you are trying to make. there have been several well documented plagues that hit the Americas before the European settlers stepped foot on the continent. there were also incidents of shocking violence and not a little bit of cannibalism (although that was mostly out in the southwest).

so it's very possible that the east coast native tribes were getting their asses kicked by a massive plague and we European types just got lucky as hell. lucky plus a significant tech advantage would have given us the edge. that said...I'd like more definitive proof than a Cracked article on the subject.


Lies My Teacher Told Me has a pretty fantastic chart of likely immigration to the Americas and the degree to which the evidence supports the likely immigration. Link It's a pretty freakin' cool book.

It's also speculated that the plague was brought over by immigrants (possibly by accident). The immigrants had a stronger immunity than the Native Americans. As a result, it depopulated the Native Americans to a greater degree than it depopulated the immigrant population.
 
2012-05-16 12:47:31 PM
Ah, that article is white guilt at it's finest.

Yes, American Indians were clearly the more advanced/sophisticated culture when the Europeans landed...
 
2012-05-16 12:47:42 PM
I honestly didn't know this stuff till I read the article. My American history teachers were pretty lame and didn't mention the whole "Apocalyptic Plague" thing.
 
2012-05-16 12:48:14 PM
That was a well written article, with some strong points. I like the apocolypse tie in. It definitely explains why the settlers wern't promptly eliminated (like previous settlers).
 
2012-05-16 12:48:24 PM
So this should be enough reason to remove the Indian monopoly on running casino's in most states, or at least make those casino profits subject to taxation, right?
 
2012-05-16 12:49:38 PM

ScouserDuck: I DO understand various aspects, especially later in history (wounded knee, trail of tears), that were horrendous actions taken by our country to finish the conquring of this country. But I DON'T get how Europeans comming here in the first place is so absolutely terrible.


There's plenty of people in any civilized culture that refuse to accept that sometimes that's how war and conquering works. People come in, kill/subjugate/assimilate who's there, and take the land and resources. You can argue all day on whether it's right or wrong, fair or unfair, but it's happened endless times throughout history and will probably continue happening. Countries and cultures don't get to positions of power without plenty of unpleasant actions and it's simply the way it is, and no amount of peacenicing is going to change that.

Which is not to diminish the horrendous aspects of what's happened, or try to excuse or justify it, it simply is. It's certainly a worthy pursuit to highlight where it's happened and attempt to work towards preventing it, but shining a spotlight on one specific case of one specific group is not telling the whole story
 
2012-05-16 12:50:08 PM

Minus 1 Charisma: Ah, that article is white guilt at it's finest.

Yes, American Indians were clearly the more advanced/sophisticated culture when the Europeans landed...


Reading comprehension's not really your strong suit, is it?
 
2012-05-16 12:55:10 PM

Sgygus: Interesting read. The pre-Plymouth plague I've heard about, but what actually was the disease?

Wikipedia suggests: The Aztecs called it cocoliztli, a hemorrhagic fever native to the Americas.


I wonder if this was what inspired "cooties"?
 
2012-05-16 12:55:16 PM
maybe Warren can ditch here white guilt act now.
 
2012-05-16 12:58:14 PM
Pet Peeve...

The article is "6 Ridiculous Lies..." so I expect the lies to be listed, then debunked. But instead, the subsections list the true statements.

For example, Lie #1 should read "Indians were defeated by white settlers."
Then it should explain how they were NOT defeated.

It's same thing when they list false myths.

/lies, how do they work?
 
2012-05-16 01:01:06 PM

FloydA: Minus 1 Charisma: Ah, that article is white guilt at it's finest.

Yes, American Indians were clearly the more advanced/sophisticated culture when the Europeans landed...

Reading comprehension's not really your strong suit, is it?


Did you have a specific rebuttal to my post or just a broad sarcastic comment? Please elaborate on your statement and why you feel that way. I would very much like to defend my comment but you give me nothing to work with. It's quite frustrating.
 
2012-05-16 01:01:39 PM

FloydA: Minus 1 Charisma: Ah, that article is white guilt at it's finest.

Yes, American Indians were clearly the more advanced/sophisticated culture when the Europeans landed...

Reading comprehension's not really your strong suit, is it?


Did you not notice point #5? "Native culture wasn't primitive?" Keep in mind he's saying this about people who had yet to discover bronze. Yes, some American societies were pretty advanced and organized in some respects, but they were demonstrably more primitive than Europeans and Asians. This isn't a criticism of them and it shouldn't be taken as evidence of their inferiority; there are plenty of reasons for it, mostly beyond their control, but it is a fact. And yes, whole lot of white guilt in this article.
 
Displayed 50 of 165 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report