FARK.com: (7108159) Not that it will change the opinion of a single person one way or the other, but the prosecution's own records show the Zimmerman had two black eyes, a broken nose, and two cuts on the back of his head the night Trayvon Martin was shot

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		Not that it will change the opinion of a single person one way or the other, but the prosecution's own records show the Zimmerman had two black eyes, a broken nose, and two cuts on the back of his head the night Trayvon Martin was shot (azcentral.com)		794
		More: Followup, family practices, broken nose, medical records

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proteus_b		2012-05-16 11:41:58 AM

halB: Some guy points a gun at you. You are very close to your home.

girlfriend's home. it's not known when mr. zimmerman pointed the gun at mr. martin. indeed, probably he did not do so before the fight, since mr. martin likely would not attack someone pointing a gun at him.

The My Little Pony Killer		2012-05-16 11:42:01 AM

Not that Subby is really paying attention, but this report was done by his family doctor (biased much?) and we already have video proof that his eyes were not black the night of the shooting.

Somebody's mad scramble is starting to fall apart.

Amos Quito		2012-05-16 11:43:10 AM

Mugato: Amos Quito: Trayvon black, Zimmerman white.

Trayvon dead, Zimmerman alive, therefor Zimmerman is guilty, guilty, guilty.

Um, Zimmerman is a Hispanic Jew. Like Juan Epstein.

No, Zimmerman is "white", the media told me so from day one.

If Zimmerman is not "white" all of the racist outrage of "oppressed minorities" disappears, and we can't have that, can we?

What about the ratings? What about the political implications?

Think of the children!

dittybopper		2012-05-16 11:43:10 AM

Scerpes: dittybopper: Personally, I really think the media bought the Martin side of the case hook line and sinker, and didn't bother to look into Zimmerman's side of it until they got embarrassed by bloggers and the like into doing it.

I don't really think it mattered whether they believed the Martin propaganda or not. It was a riveting story. Riveting stories sell papers and get viewers, so it was really attractive to the media. They jumped all over it without regard to whether there was anything to it or not.

OK, so if it's a riveting story, why didn't they do actual *JOURNALISM* instead of essentially reprinting press releases from the Martin side? Or does the actual truth make it less riveting? Were they lazy, or afraid what they would find?

I've been involved, at least tangentially, in a couple of fairly big news stories of national and international importance. In both cases, the media got stuff fundamentally wrong, but in at least one of them they can't be necessarily faulted for that, due to the circumstances. But I've noticed this is a common thing, even with stuff it would take a modicum of effort to look it up in an encyclopedia. Basic stuff, like math and physics, not "he said, she said" kind of things.

I'm not the only one who has noticed this, either.

That's why whenever possible in these threads, I link to the actual source documents like the police report, or the actual Florida statutes, instead of relying on media reporting, because it is wrong often enough that I don't necessarily trust it.

Happy Hours		2012-05-16 11:43:31 AM

elffster: I really hope Zimmerman gets the FBI probe too.

He seriously needs some jail time, he did not defend himself. He stalked and murdered a child.

If this had been a case of a guy having sex with a consenting 17 year old being charged with statutory rape I seriously doubt any Farkers would be calling the 17 year old a "child".

Despite what anyone thinks happened, I still haven't seen enough evidence to convict Zimmerman.

Propain_az		2012-05-16 11:43:33 AM

The My Little Pony Killer: Not that Subby is really paying attention, but this report was done by his family doctor (biased much?) and we already have video proof that his eyes were not black the night of the shooting.

Somebody's mad scramble is starting to fall apart.

I doubt that his "family" doctor would risk his career to lie for Señor Zimmerman.

ChuDogg		2012-05-16 11:44:27 AM

proteus_b: halB: Some guy points a gun at you. You are very close to your home.

girlfriend's home. it's not known when mr. zimmerman pointed the gun at mr. martin. indeed, probably he did not do so before the fight, since mr. martin likely would not attack someone pointing a gun at him.

If he did Martin would have probably just ran away and none of this would have happened, instead of assaulting him and trying to grab his gun out of the holster.

I think that's the real lesson learned here: if you see somebody suspicious, you should go for your gun right away.

SweetSilverBlues		2012-05-16 11:45:10 AM

halB: Some guy points a gun at you. You are very close to your home.

Am I supposed to believe that trayvon decided to attack a guy who had a gun pointed at trayvon?

According to Zimmerman, the gun didn't come into play until after Martin began beating on him.

I don't refute this because if he'd had the gun out a physical altercation like what's been described probably would not have happened.

Serious Post on Serious Thread		2012-05-16 11:46:07 AM

Phinn: Serious Post on Serious Thread: Statists? So you must righteously live off the grid and don't take part of any social contrivances or manufactured goods. Like electricity, or the internet, or computers.

The State doesn't manufacture any goods, that I know of. Maybe a few uniforms here and there, but the rest is done by private businesses.

The state's monopolistic approach to utilities destroyed the markets for electricity production. As expected, that froze the distribution network in time circa 1910. If that hadn't happened, electrical production, distribution and consumption would have advanced along entirely different lines, just like computer technology has. But we remain stuck with a centralized, monopoly-based "grid" instead of modern distributed systems and devices. This result is similar to the way that the technology of East Germany was 30 years behind West Germany, which was obvious after reunification. When the wall came down and we saw the way the East Germans lived, it was like visiting a technology museum.

But, my point is that there's a high volume of derp coming from the Left about how Zimmerman was somehow obligated to follow the police dispatcher's every word. It seems to be an ingrained reflex on the Left that we're all obligated to be mealy-mouthed, obsequious little followers to the whims of anyone who draws a government paycheck.

Oh lord, srsly?

The big bad state is a predicate to any infrastructure that any business relies on. From courts to enforce contracts, to ditches to keep roads from flooding.

You are projecting some very convoluted idea that authoritarianism (a hallmark of social conservative d-bags, and military/industrial supplicant neo-cons) is somehow the same as society.
Progressives generally understand the gov't should serve the people and be subject to the will and needs of the public goods. Righties see the gov't as an outgrowth of their own sublimated desires to lord over others, so it's either 'rule with an iron fist while in power' or 'gov't is all evil when not in power'.

jso2897		2012-05-16 11:46:47 AM

proteus_b: jso2897: Well, the charges being brought would not indicate that it is. Mr. Zimmerman is not charged with having deliberately murdered Mr. Martin with malicious intent. He is charged with having screwed up by virtue of having been reckless, and that having caused a death. There is no meaningful discussion of racial motivation in a crime that is not being attributed to a malicious intent to begin with.

the amount and tone of the media attention indicates that race is indeed at the heart of this case. how many (black and white) people have been murdered since? how many politicos that self-identify as writers on race issues have written about this case? while race unlikely had anything to do with the fight or the homicide, the media frenzy has certainly circled around mr. martin's blackness and whether or not he was "targeted for execution" as a result, and whether or not mr. zimmermann was initially not charged as a result of mr. martin's blackness and/or his own whiteness.

Another good reason to ignore the media until the case is tried in court, where it belongs. The media will always stir whatever shiat will sell their product - doesn't make any of it real. i would think that a longtime denizen of Fark.com would understand that.

The My Little Pony Killer		2012-05-16 11:47:05 AM

Scerpes: Unoriginal_Username: austin_millbarge: None of which he would have gotten had he done what the 911 operator said and NOT FOLLOW MARTIN.

/still clear zimmerman got the better end of the deal

I came to say the same damn thing.
All of this could have been avoided if Zimmerman wasn't a fking idiot

All of this could have been avoided if Martin had just gone straight home. You can play what if all day long. It doesn't matter under the law.

Funny, since that's all he was trying to do.

Perhaps Zimmerman should have listened to the helpful advice given to him by the very people he called for help.

Jake Steed		2012-05-16 11:47:53 AM

You're acting suspicous in area that has had some recent burglaries. Some guy approaches you and asks you what you're up to. Instead of telling him you live right around the corner and you're heading home you proceed to break his nose and bash his head into the pavement. Then you get shot and killed....oh well, my heart pumps piss for you, your family, and race baiters like Obama, Al Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson.

The little thug got was coming to him.

dittybopper		2012-05-16 11:50:23 AM

redmid17: Propain_az: Amos Quito: Trayvon black, Zimmerman white.

Trayvon dead, Zimmerman alive, therefor Zimmerman is guilty, guilty, guilty.

Why complicate things with facts and details?

Zimmer is white? I think he is of Latino origin.

His dad is white. His mom is Peruvian with some African ancestors.

His fine-looking suit is really made out of sack.

YouPeopleAreCrazy		2012-05-16 11:50:43 AM

Biv: But no matter what happened, if TM threw the first punch then it's clear cut self defense and he walks.

Key word in there - "if"

Anyone in here that claims to know otherwise is simply blowing large amounts of smoke.
Only two people really know, and only one of them can tell us.

9beers		2012-05-16 11:52:12 AM

I want to see a followup with the funeral home worker now that we know that he's a farking liar.

Here's an interview with him that makes it pretty obvious to me that he had an agenda.

Jake Steed		2012-05-16 11:52:21 AM

The My Little Pony Killer:
Not that Subby is really paying attention, but this report was done by his family doctor (biased much?) and we already have video proof that his eyes were not black the night of the shooting.

Somebody's mad scramble is starting to fall apart.
-------------------

Just like you had video proof that he didn't have any injuries to the back of his head......and audio proof that he was racist.

Scerpes		2012-05-16 11:52:45 AM

dittybopper: Scerpes: dittybopper: Personally, I really think the media bought the Martin side of the case hook line and sinker, and didn't bother to look into Zimmerman's side of it until they got embarrassed by bloggers and the like into doing it.

I don't really think it mattered whether they believed the Martin propaganda or not. It was a riveting story. Riveting stories sell papers and get viewers, so it was really attractive to the media. They jumped all over it without regard to whether there was anything to it or not.

OK, so if it's a riveting story, why didn't they do actual *JOURNALISM* instead of essentially reprinting press releases from the Martin side? Or does the actual truth make it less riveting? Were they lazy, or afraid what they would find?

I've been involved, at least tangentially, in a couple of fairly big news stories of national and international importance. In both cases, the media got stuff fundamentally wrong, but in at least one of them they can't be necessarily faulted for that, due to the circumstances. But I've noticed this is a common thing, even with stuff it would take a modicum of effort to look it up in an encyclopedia. Basic stuff, like math and physics, not "he said, she said" kind of things.

I'm not the only one who has noticed this, either.

That's why whenever possible in these threads, I link to the actual source documents like the police report, or the actual Florida statutes, instead of relying on media reporting, because it is wrong often enough that I don't necessarily trust it.

I think part of it is laziness. Part of it is also the new media we live with. You don't get to wait until they run the papers tomorrow...you have to push the story out right now, or someone else is going to beat you to it. I doubt anyone has yelled "Stop the presses!" in ten years.

SweetSilverBlues		2012-05-16 11:52:55 AM

dittybopper: redmid17: Propain_az: Amos Quito: Trayvon black, Zimmerman white.

Trayvon dead, Zimmerman alive, therefor Zimmerman is guilty, guilty, guilty.

Why complicate things with facts and details?

Zimmer is white? I think he is of Latino origin.

His dad is white. His mom is Peruvian with some African ancestors.

His fine-looking suit is really made out of sack.

And has created quite a conundrum.

YouPeopleAreCrazy		2012-05-16 11:54:15 AM

Jake Steed: You're acting suspicous in area that has had some recent burglaries.

Walking home is suspicious? How so?

/and the rest of your rant is equally assumption filled

The My Little Pony Killer		2012-05-16 11:55:01 AM

Propain_az: trivial use of my dark powers: If Zimmerman had "stood his ground" as the 911 operator had told him to, he'd have been waiting at the phone when the police showed up and none of this would have happened.

I've no sympathy for him.

The 911 operator didn't tell him to stand his ground or stop, or stop following martin. She said, "We don't need you to do that". And since when do 911 operators have any authority anyway?

Why would you even call 911 if you think that the person on the other end of the line doesn't know what they're talking about?

The 911 operator had more experience with these types of situations than some random vigilante.

jso2897		2012-05-16 11:55:21 AM

YouPeopleAreCrazy: Biv: But no matter what happened, if TM threw the first punch then it's clear cut self defense and he walks.

Key word in there - "if"

Anyone in here that claims to know otherwise is simply blowing large amounts of smoke.
Only two people really know, and only one of them can tell us.

One thing that has been pointed out is that under some scenarios, under Florida law, it is quite possible that they BOTH may have had the right to "stand their ground", and whoever won would have been in the right. If that's true, they may have just legalized dueling.

Snarfangel		2012-05-16 11:55:23 AM

halB: Some guy points a gun at you. You are very close to your home.

>Run home

The man with the gun won't let you pass.

>offer iced tea

The man with the gun laughs at your offering

>Attack man with Skittles

The man shoots you.

It is dark here. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

cretinbob		2012-05-16 11:55:32 AM

What a thug in training might look like

The My Little Pony Killer		2012-05-16 11:55:59 AM

Biv: Moosecakes: I don't care if he had a broken leg he put himself in that position and unnecessarily caused the death of someone else, and the entire thing could have been avoided by just following police instructions.

Again, you don't know that he didn't. There has been no evidence released that he did anything but head back to his vehicle.

Which he wouldn't have left in the first place had he listened to the advice given to him by the people he called for help...

StinkyFiddlewinks		2012-05-16 11:56:29 AM

Zimmerman needed an ass kicking regardless.
/ITG

dittybopper		2012-05-16 11:56:41 AM

SweetSilverBlues: dittybopper: redmid17: Propain_az: Amos Quito: Trayvon black, Zimmerman white.

Trayvon dead, Zimmerman alive, therefor Zimmerman is guilty, guilty, guilty.

Why complicate things with facts and details?

Zimmer is white? I think he is of Latino origin.

His dad is white. His mom is Peruvian with some African ancestors.

His fine-looking suit is really made out of sack.

And has created quite a conundrum.

Also, I hear that the north side of Zimmerman's home town faced east, and the east was facing south.

jso2897		2012-05-16 11:57:12 AM

Snarfangel: halB: Some guy points a gun at you. You are very close to your home.

>Run home

The man with the gun won't let you pass.

>offer iced tea

The man with the gun laughs at your offering

>Attack man with Skittles

The man shoots you.

It is dark here. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

If you want to go to Hell, that's your business - but do you have to take me with you? :D

redmid17		2012-05-16 11:57:43 AM

halB: Some guy points a gun at you. You are very close to your home.

Am I supposed to believe that trayvon decided to attack a guy who had a gun pointed at trayvon?

By the only accounts that have been made available to the public, the gun wasn't drawn until after the confrontation got violent. He was shot in the chest from close range.

Propain_az		2012-05-16 11:57:44 AM

The My Little Pony Killer: Biv: Moosecakes: I don't care if he had a broken leg he put himself in that position and unnecessarily caused the death of someone else, and the entire thing could have been avoided by just following police instructions.

Again, you don't know that he didn't. There has been no evidence released that he did anything but head back to his vehicle.

Which he wouldn't have left in the first place had he listened to the advice given to him by the people he called for help...

He isn't required to listen to advice.

Biv		2012-05-16 11:57:56 AM

Joe Peanut		2012-05-16 11:58:51 AM

dittybopper: Yeah, if Occam still believed that 6'3" Trayvon Martin was much smaller than 5'9" George Zimmerman. Which would make Occam the laughingstock of this thread.

Height doesn't enter into this. Why are all combat sports such as MMA, Boxing, Wrestling, Judo, etc divided into weight classes rather than height? Martin was 150lbs and Zimmermann is 185 lbs. That's what counts in a fight.

jso2897		2012-05-16 11:59:35 AM

dittybopper: SweetSilverBlues: dittybopper: redmid17: Propain_az: Amos Quito: Trayvon black, Zimmerman white.

Trayvon dead, Zimmerman alive, therefor Zimmerman is guilty, guilty, guilty.

Why complicate things with facts and details?

Zimmer is white? I think he is of Latino origin.

His dad is white. His mom is Peruvian with some African ancestors.

His fine-looking suit is really made out of sack.

And has created quite a conundrum.

Also, I hear that the north side of Zimmerman's home town faced east, and the east was facing south.

i18.photobucket.com

cretinbob		2012-05-16 12:00:18 PM

SweetSilverBlues		2012-05-16 12:00:31 PM

Phinn		2012-05-16 12:00:38 PM

Serious Post on Serious Thread: You are projecting some very convoluted idea that authoritarianism ... is somehow the same as society.

This makes no sense.

What I'm saying is that it seems like there's a one-to-one correlation between people being Leftie Proggie douche and believing that disregarding the stray comments of police dispatchers is tantamount to being an outlaw.

The two mindsets arise from the same pathology -- the state is almighty, the state is good, the state is here to help you, the state is your protector, the state is the source of all our freedoms, the state is benevolent.

It really doesn't matter what some government employee on the other end of the phone thought or said. Zimmerman had the right to go anywhere and investigate anything he wanted to. As long as he didn't pose a threat of death or serious injury to someone, he had the right not to be hit as he was doing so.

We're not children, and the government is not daddy. The Proggie view of government is obviously a manifestation of some serious problems with their childhoods.

(So, too, the right-wing authoritarian view of government, if that matters to you.)

proteus_b		2012-05-16 12:00:46 PM

jso2897: Another good reason to ignore the media until the case is tried in court, where it belongs. The media will always stir whatever shiat will sell their product - doesn't make any of it real. i would think that a longtime denizen of Fark.com would understand that.

i don't think the media or race has much to do with the guilt or non-guilt of mr. zimmerman, and i do think that from what i know, that some kind of criminal charges may be warranted for mr. zimmerman to face in front of judge or jury. what i do maintain, however, is that the media circus regarding this case errs in emphasizing the dangers black males face in being assaulted by white men. it is a fiction. thank you for characterizing me as a denizen, rather than a ranter or troll; it has a sophisticated air to it!

the_foo		2012-05-16 12:01:55 PM

liam76: Under Fla stand your ground they have no farking case. He we will walk.

But him being injured still doesn't answer the question of who attacked who first.

Despite the media outrage, SYG isn't an unlimited license to kill. It requires reasonable fear, and Black In Public isn't going to satisfy that standard. Pursuing someone is also very different than standing your ground.

lelio		2012-05-16 12:01:56 PM

Well I just learned that "Tea and Skittles" could mean marijuana and DXM pills. Oh kids today with their slang.

Mr Guy		2012-05-16 12:03:34 PM

I can't help but notice that no one who seems to think a gun is justified escalation of force when you're losing a fight is bothering to point out that if someone pulls a gun on you, they are the ones who already escalated it to deadly force.

I want to see a demonstration of how any kind of properly holstered gun can be drawn and employed effectively when a younger, stronger, more physically adept male is bashing your head into the concrete.

You'll need some damn good evidence to convince he didn't brandish the weapon first, which gave Martin the right to beat him into a bloody pulp until Martin was sure the threat had been neutralized.

neritz		2012-05-16 12:04:17 PM

mitEj: So you mean the young teenage boy may have defended himself when a crazy person chased him down in a SUV in the middle of the night and then chased him into the grass way between houses as he tried to get home to his stepmothers house. What would have done submitter ?

The entire point is that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation and killed the teen boy. If the young man fought back that was his right under the statute that Zimmerman erroneously used to get away with murder.

This.

JDAT		2012-05-16 12:04:29 PM

I'll wait for the report to come out that Treyvon HAD A KNIFE!

Propain_az		2012-05-16 12:04:49 PM

SweetSilverBlues		2012-05-16 12:05:29 PM

the_foo: liam76: Under Fla stand your ground they have no farking case. He we will walk.

But him being injured still doesn't answer the question of who attacked who first.

Despite the media outrage, SYG isn't an unlimited license to kill. It requires reasonable fear, and Black In Public isn't going to satisfy that standard. Pursuing someone is also very different than standing your ground.

That's the crux of the issue.

According to Florida law it does not matter who threw the first punch.

What matters is whether or not Zimmerman was legitamately in fear for his life or great bodily harm when he pulled the trigger.

The events leading up to it, under Florida law, are entirely irrelevant.

And that's ridiculous.

dittybopper		2012-05-16 12:05:32 PM

Joe Peanut: dittybopper: Yeah, if Occam still believed that 6'3" Trayvon Martin was much smaller than 5'9" George Zimmerman. Which would make Occam the laughingstock of this thread.

Height doesn't enter into this. Why are all combat sports such as MMA, Boxing, Wrestling, Judo, etc divided into weight classes rather than height? Martin was 150lbs and Zimmermann is 185 lbs. That's what counts in a fight.

The extra reach and leverage afforded by being taller gives you an advantage over someone the same weight (or roughly so). Also, not all weight is the same: A lean athlete is going to have an advantage over heavier non-athlete, even a much heavier one.

cretinbob		2012-05-16 12:06:25 PM

Propain_az: He isn't required to listen to advice.

It's called "pre-arrival instructions" , and while you don't have to , you should.

Has anyone else mentioned "hearsay is inadmissible" yet?

Land Ark		2012-05-16 12:07:20 PM

I'm not coming here to shout about what should be done or what has been done in this case.
As someone who is friends with people who were brought before the press and accused by the Chief of DC police of having kicked and stomped a man to death, who suffered the wrath of a media frenzy, and later were proven completely innocent of any wrong-doing - meanwhile public opinion still says they are guilty because of how it was portrayed in the immediate aftermath - I'd like to remind people that what is reported is not always the truth. Determining guilt based on what is reported in the paper and on TV will get innocent people sent to jail or worse.

ackb4r		2012-05-16 12:08:30 PM

Sounds like Trayvon was standing his ground.

Or do SYG laws not apply to black teens?

nekom		2012-05-16 12:09:07 PM

Happy Hours: Despite what anyone thinks happened, I still haven't seen enough evidence to convict Zimmerman.

Interesting question, not specifically for you but for anyone else: What would it take to get you to vote to convict?

He's being charged with second degree murder, which according to Florida law can either be an accomplice situation or when a person is killed, without any premeditated design, by an act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind showing no regard for human life.

I see no evidence proving conclusively that he showed no regard for human life. I'm not even sure how you determine that to be honest, that's a pretty strangely worded statute. Now shooting him (which he did) is certainly an act imminently dangerous to another. His claim of self defense is somewhat shaky since he initiated the incident, but not shaky enough that I wouldn't accept it for lack of any facts that counter his side of the story.

I don't think I could convict either, there's just nothing there.

Propain_az		2012-05-16 12:09:14 PM

cretinbob: Propain_az: He isn't required to listen to advice.

It's called "pre-arrival instructions" , and while you don't have to , you should.

Has anyone else mentioned "hearsay is inadmissible" yet?

"you should" isn't a legal standard.

dittybopper		2012-05-16 12:10:54 PM

SweetSilverBlues: dittybopper: SweetSilverBlues: dittybopper: redmid17: Propain_az: Amos Quito: Trayvon black, Zimmerman white.

Trayvon dead, Zimmerman alive, therefor Zimmerman is guilty, guilty, guilty.

Why complicate things with facts and details?

Zimmer is white? I think he is of Latino origin.

His dad is white. His mom is Peruvian with some African ancestors.

His fine-looking suit is really made out of sack.

And has created quite a conundrum.

Also, I hear that the north side of Zimmerman's home town faced east, and the east was facing south.

And his lawn is filled with slatted folding chairs.

I am very sorry for his lots.

He looks pretty tall, but his heels are high.

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