Serious Black: dittybopper: YouPeopleAreCrazy: 9beers: Ask her if she thinks a 6'3 17 year old is a child.

Martin seems to be getting bigger in every thread.

6'0" 160
6'2" 175
6'3"

Even at his shortest reported height, 6'0", he's still at least 3 inches taller than Zimmerman, who's maximum reported height is 5'9".

BTW, the source for Martin's height of 6'3" is his own family.

I like the argument that somebody posted earlier in the thread that Trayvon Martin was a "very muscular" 175 at 6'3". I'm 6'3", and when I was in college and working out over 20 hours a week for swimming, my weight peaked at 185. I did not look "very muscular," and there is absolutely no way anyone could look "very muscular" at that weight, let alone a weight lower than that.

Muscular or not, Martin had a very real physical advantage over Zimmerman. Increased height means longer arms, which is longer reach and better leverage. He also had the advantage of youth, and of having been some sort of an athlete, at least at some point.

Biv: Stopping someone to find out what they are up to is not against the law, especially of you are neighborhood watch.

He wasn't part of any Neighborhood Watch, nor did his neighborhood have one. Even if he had been, Neighborhood Watch is not a law enforcement organization and members have no police powers of any kind. In fact, the Neighborhood Watch rules specifically warn members to never approach suspects, forget confronting them. This is why.

You can't just "stop" people to "find out what they're up to", as you have no right to that information. Doing anything to physically restrain someone's movement will definitely get you into trouble, and even just following them around pestering them about it may turn into an issue.

Pumpernickel bread: So, if someone is on top of you caving your face in, your response would be to just lie there and take it, even to the point you were unconscious or dead? That is what you are suggesting Zimmerman should have done.

frepnog: i am honestly curious why you think that being sat on while a guy bashes your head into a sidewalk justifies no response....Zim didn't murder anyone, he killed a gangsta thug wanna-be that picked the wrong guy to beat on

If it's because I gave him a good reason to think I'm about to murder him and that killing me is the only way to save his own life, then I deserve to be held responsible for whatever I do to defend myself.

From what I've read, I find it overwhelmingly likely that Martin was terrified of a strange guy following him in his truck, then chasing him on foot, in the dark. Once they were face-to-face, Zimmerman doesn't identify himself, has no badge, no uniform, and starts demanding answers he isn't entitled to. When he doesn't get them, he grabs or shoves Martin. (Zimmerman has a history of accusations of assaulting both women and police officers and of getting physical when he doesn't get his way. This seems to be what Martin's girlfriend reportedly claimed to believe she heard on the phone, too.) Martin reacts like anybody would to having a stranger grab at them, fighting back, then realizes Zimmerman has a gun and comes to believe he's about to be murdered in the middle of the street by some random lunatic.

I'd try to crack the guy's head open like a coconut in that scenario, too, and I wouldn't feel bad about it. I wouldn't convict anybody of murder for it, either.

I really do not believe that Zimmerman went into this planning to murder somebody, but he certainly knew what he was doing when he shot Martin. Unless there's real evidence that he had walked away and that Martin pursued him (and, other than his claim, which is contradicted by Martin's girlfriend, there isn't), I would think manslaughter is the most generous possible interpretation. Zimmerman caused the death by his own fantastically stupid and reckless actions, chasing a stranger in the dark because he didn't like the looks of him and provoking the stranger to fight back.

Broken nose and apparently attacked and beaten you say?

SchlingFocker: So, he stalked Trayvon in the dark, with a gun, and then Trayvon defended himself from this armed miscreant skulking about in the shadows.

He then shot Trayvon for trying to defend himself.

You don't get to stalk someone in the dark with a gun and claim self-defense after you shoot them. Doesn't fly

Zimmerman wasn't breaking any laws by following him. If Trayvon initiated the confrontation (and we don't know this), I'd say legally his claim of self defense is valid.

I think what he did was stupid, unnecessary and dangerous, but probably not illegal. If Trayvon did indeed attack him, it was foolish of him to do so, not that I think he deserved to die for it but it would be poor judgment.

There's plenty of bad judgment to go around, but I guess it all begins with Zimmerman, who could have minded his own business and none of this would have happened.

Philimus: I've not read through the whole thread so my apologies if someone else has mentioned this.

From what I recall of the reporting on the Trayvon Martin case,

That's your first mistake. The reporting on this case was very badly slanted at the beginning. That's because the initial reporting was driven by Martin's family, and others who had a reason to push this into the media for "social justice" reasons.

One by one though, the initial claims of the narrative have fallen like dominoes. Martin wasn't the 12 year old kid in the picture his family initially released. Why didn't they use a more recent one? Martin wasn't suspended from school for "being in an unauthorized area", he was suspended for having a baggie with some marijuana residue in it. Zimmerman didn't weigh 100 lbs more than Martin, nor was he bigger than Martin. Zimmerman wasn't uninjured, in fact he had some actual injuries that were noted by the cop in his initial report.

Personally, I really think the media bought the Martin side of the case hook line and sinker, and didn't bother to look into Zimmerman's side of it until they got embarrassed by bloggers and the like into doing it.