I had terrible luck with dating until I realized two very important concepts, one of which was mentioned ITT already:

1) Don't pour your heart out to a girl you are trying to court. Use all non-verbal communication. Sit close to her, see how far you can get with touch barriers, etc. It is her job to bring up relationships and all the lovey-dovey stuff. Don't pour your heart out.

2) I will reiterate that nice guys aren't really that nice because they use the friendship as a coy to a relationship. You're pretending to be her friend. You may think you are treating her nice, but you are falling short of HER expectations. You make it obvious you like her, but you don't do anything in no. 1 above. Girls get mad at this, and rightfully so. In her mind, you're teasing her and wasting her time.

It's not about "nice guys" vs. "assholes", it's called "being assertive" vs. "being passive". Being one doesn't necessarily imply being the other.

Pheromones

Nice guys = lesser amounts wafting off them
Assholes = greater amounts wafting off them

That's the sum total of all it is

Magnanimous_J: All the swaybacked, wheezy old horses will start to come off the wild plains and want to live at your farm and eat your hay and live in your warm barn :-)

Just try not to get bitter about it. Yes, its a basically selfish realization that their head-turning days are over and they want some security before they end up 40, sitting at a dive bar, sucking an off brand cigarette through a hole in their throat.

You have to realize that life you are selfish too. You wouldn't want them if they weren't beautiful, and they won't want you unless you have something to offer.

I disagree. Men tend to gain social capital as they age and women tend to lose it. If you're staring down your mid-to-late 30s and women your age are just starting to come around, you're doing a huge disservice to yourself to give them the time of day. Have your fun with the 20-somethings. They'll be up for it, especially the ones with daddy issues.

Whomever said Nice guys view relationships etc as a doggy treat upthread is probably right. We sort of think we're entitled to have a girl attracted to us which is hardly realistic nor fair to said girl. To be fair, almost everyone including girls have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement.

Nice guys need to give up on that goddess they're longing for and focus on their own lives. Forget about dating and relationships. Explore the world, experience new things, and develop interests; in short become an genuinely interesting person. Dating is like the icing on the cake. It's really good but you need a cake (the rest of your life) to put it on. Girls want someone who is interesting, who can show them something new about the world, who excites them, whom they feel passionate about, and who feels passionately about them.

In short the best thing you can do is at give up on the whole relationship thing and enjoy your life, because in the end regardless of whether you find someone or not, you'll have had a good life.

Disclaimer: Above are generalizations based on my limited experiences and observations which may or may not be accurate or apply to any specific person.

I'm convinced that most women are closet masochists, they enjoy getting farked over by the assholes, they then biatch about the assholes to keep their cover, but they really truely like the assholes and not the nice guys

For you guys stuck in the friendzone, Biz Markie has a tale for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aofoBrFNdgLink

IrateShadow: If you're staring down your mid-to-late 30s and women your age are just starting to come around, you're doing a huge disservice to yourself to give them the time of day. Have your fun with the 20-somethings.

That thought warms the cockles of my heart.

Nice guys piss me off and that's saying something because I'm a hetero male. Also, as a physically repulsive, broke 20-something bore that long recognized he has zero chances with the ladies in my demographic, I am grateful girls are gracious enough to have a friendzone available or life would be a total sausagefest of fellow geeks and losers.

fickenchucker:
Conclusion--I drank the Kool-Aid and bought the lie girls need to be treated with chivalry and respect on a different level than fellow guys. Girls are just as indecisive, shallow, and horney--they're no different.

I didn't figure this out until I was twenty, and looking back I go "daaaaammn I could've farked mad biatches for a skinny guy." I had no trouble getting girlfriends, had dozens--I had trouble because I'd "respect" them so much they got horny as hell and stopped waiting for me to make a move by dumping me. In a few cases my dumb ass dumped a horny chick I wasn't afraid to make a move on because I decided I had no future with them and "then I'd just be using her" ::gag:: After 3 days in one instance. I probably only had to wait a week for the poon. Ugh I was so gay.

Bah! Try again fail
Link

xcv: Nice guys piss me off and that's saying something because I'm a hetero male. Also, as a physically repulsive, broke 20-something bore that long recognized he has zero chances with the ladies in my demographic, I am grateful girls are gracious enough to have a friendzone available or life would be a total sausagefest of fellow geeks and losers.

Well yeah, with that attitude. Have a little self-respect man!

Saborlas: I'm a nice guy. I have a girlfriend. It's possible to do all right as a nice guy.

Why don't you guys just invest in hookers? It seems like less effort and money.

Needlessly Complicated: Can't you guys just... you know... treat women like they're people?

I LOL'd at that statement after reading your username.

/novel concept. I like it.

terrible article, would not read again!

I dealt with these issues for years.

I'm a nice guy. Not just to women, but in general.

I thought for years that my problems finding a decent woman might be that "niceness", especially when time after time I'd see women that I cared about end up with complete jerks.

The funny thing is that, as a reasonably physically attractive musician, I actually tended to attract a lot of women initially, only to have them lose that attraction within a few weeks, or months.

After literally years of researching the issue, I essentially came to the conclusion that the best approach is to attempt to find the positive things in the "bad boy" approach and make them my own, while still keeping my basic niceness intact.

So far I've had MUCH better success than I used to have, and all I really had to do was stop acting like I "care" so much. I rarely re-initiate contact with a woman, once I've made my first impression, choosing to let them come to me, if they so desire. When in a relationship I've stopped calling/texting, almost completely. Now, I will usually answer a text, at some point, but I rarely send one without being prompted, I almost never call, and I rarely TELL them that I care about them, although when we are together I still try to do things to SHOW them that I do, or at least , might. Above all else, I've become much less predictable.

The difference has been truly amazing.

The hilarious thing is that before, women almost never complained about anything I did, they just "lost interest" while telling me that I was special, and deserved someone much better than them; whereas now, they often complain that I'm not giving them enough attention, but ironically, their level of attraction seems to GROW with each complaint, rather than subside as most "nice guys" might expect.

I guess the lesson is that most "nice guys" tend to treat others as they want to be treated, but with many women, that is often the completely wrong approach. Instead, treat them in the way that the women you have pined for in the past treated you, make them believe you might be "friend zoning" them, and odds are they'll react in much the same way you used to act when a woman did that to you.

Above all else, you have to give them TIME. Time to miss you, time to wonder what you might be doing, or who you might be doing it with. Too many "nice guys" seem clingy or needy when they are constantly "checking in" with a woman, so don't!

It seems somewhat counter-intuitive, I know, but it works.

Braindeath: Why don't you guys just invest in hookers? It seems like less effort and money.

Burying hookers takes effort.

Evil Mackerel: Braindeath: Why don't you guys just invest in hookers? It seems like less effort and money.

Burying hookers takes effort.

Maybe a timeshare?

Oh, wait, I thought you wrote "buying."

Sybarite: housekeeping is not the intended purpose of your precious fourth chakra

Can someone explain to me what this means in English? I honestly have no idea.


Also, I love the difference in advice the good doctor gives to men and women.

1. Nice guy asks what he needs to change to get women. Columnist tells him to suck it up and stop being a pussy.

2. Woman who hasn't dated in 15 years asks what she needs to change to get men. Columnist tells her that she's a princess and only has to get out there and be in the same room as other guys for them to swarm and shower her with attention.

The practicalities will always take precedence. Don't believe the hype. You're just one aspect of the circumstances.

3 G's: I dealt with these issues for years.

I'm a nice guy. Not just to women, but in general.

I thought for years that my problems finding a decent woman might be that "niceness", especially when time after time I'd see women that I cared about end up with complete jerks.

The funny thing is that, as a reasonably physically attractive musician, I actually tended to attract a lot of women initially, only to have them lose that attraction within a few weeks, or months.

After literally years of researching the issue, I essentially came to the conclusion that the best approach is to attempt to find the positive things in the "bad boy" approach and make them my own, while still keeping my basic niceness intact.

So far I've had MUCH better success than I used to have, and all I really had to do was stop acting like I "care" so much. I rarely re-initiate contact with a woman, once I've made my first impression, choosing to let them come to me, if they so desire. When in a relationship I've stopped calling/texting, almost completely. Now, I will usually answer a text, at some point, but I rarely send one without being prompted, I almost never call, and I rarely TELL them that I care about them, although when we are together I still try to do things to SHOW them that I do, or at least , might. Above all else, I've become much less predictable.

The difference has been truly amazing.

The hilarious thing is that before, women almost never complained about anything I did, they just "lost interest" while telling me that I was special, and deserved someone much better than them; whereas now, they often complain that I'm not giving them enough attention, but ironically, their level of attraction seems to GROW with each complaint, rather than subside as most "nice guys" might expect.

I guess the lesson is that most "nice guys" tend to treat others as they want to be treated, but with many women, that is often the completely wrong approach. Instead, treat them in the way that the wo ...

SO MUCH THIS.

you know who else was a nice guy?

Needlessly Complicated: Can't you guys just... you know... treat women like they're people?

The point is that it is easier to get laid when you don't. In that respect, women do it to themselves. Most women do not consider me to be a "nice guy" but instead more of a "bad boy" and it works.

Needlessly Complicated: Can't you guys just... you know... treat women like they're people?

If we treat them like we do our friends (like "people"), then that is all they will ever be to us - friends.
That is the whole point of this thread. The woman whose panties you want to get into cannot be just "people", and don't want to be just "people". They want to be special. The smart man accepts this at an early age, and gets laid. The "nice guy" doesn't get it, and then... doesn't get it.
Real life is a much more complicated place.

"When you're fully equipped with a sturdy spine, appropriate women will join your fan club. -Dr. Gilda"

Translation: It pays to be Richard Cranium.

I'm a nice guy. But I didn't get my girlfriend because I'm a nice guy. I got it because I'm a man. I'm assertive. I'm confident. I get shiat done when it needs to be done. And I have a life outside of my girlfriend.

Simple as that.

Humean_Nature: I know it's "this thread" again, but this article on the subject is worth reading.

I RTFL, and I can't see much new insight to be gathered here; it's almost (maybe not quite) as stereotypifying as the post it complains about; it offers no particular insight into human relationships. Okay, there is one point that I do like and that is that male-female friendship that is not sexual is not a consolation prize for a sexual-romantic relationship, it has it's own value in the same way that macaroni and cheese is not a consolation prize for not being able to have a tuna fish sandwich. Some women are just friends from the start and its never going to be more than that and that's fine and valuable to have in your life.

I've recently come to believe that you know where a relationship with a person of the opposite sex is going to go very early on and that early impression is rarely wrong. I don't see friendships becoming more than friends, unless you (both) feel there is more there from the beginning and for whatever reason you just don't let it go that direction right away.

I've also recently discovered a new kind of relationship. I can see her as a friend *and* I can definitely see getting sexy with her, but I can't see a real romantic relationship developing. I guess that's "friends with benefits" but I never actually experienced it myself before. Not that I'm going to tell her that. I don't believe in actually having a FWB relationship so AFAIAC it will stay "friends with a little sexual tension" like it is now.

akula and BeLeap are on the right track. From what I've found, having more of my own life made it a lot easier to get a girlfriend. Ironically though, so did learning not to care too much about what she (or anyone else) thinks. And that gets easier with age. There's some truth in what the folksinger Christine Lavin says, that you just stop giving a damn how other people view you around the time you hit 50. Maybe it's at least partly the result of gaining confidence and experience in the world. All women seem to respond positivvely to confidence.

When I was younger, I used to worry that a girl I liked and was with would drop me for someone else, so of course that's what would eventually happen. Now I just do my thing and occasionally ask my girlfriend if she wants to break up, and it seems to make her more interested in staying together ... and more forthcoming with the nookie, too, for that matter.

What was it the lovely and talented Kelly Bundy used to say? "We're all liars and you're all idiots." Indeed. Wish I'd appreciated that bit of wisdom when I was in my 20s (kidding).

Lou Brown: Sybarite: housekeeping is not the intended purpose of your precious fourth chakra

Can someone explain to me what this means in English? I honestly have no idea.


Also, I love the difference in advice the good doctor gives to men and women.

1. Nice guy asks what he needs to change to get women. Columnist tells him to suck it up and stop being a pussy.

2. Woman who hasn't dated in 15 years asks what she needs to change to get men. Columnist tells her that she's a princess and only has to get out there and be in the same room as other guys for them to swarm and shower her with attention.

I picked up on that too, but noticed that "Old Dog" never explicitly indicated their gender (or I missed it), which makes the response hilarious if it was a guy.

Seriously, never put any stock in anything said by Dr. [First Name]

/Except Dr. Nick
//That guy seems legit

The real assholes here are so-called nice guys. Let me explain...

Self-described "nice guys" assume that treating someone with the bare minimum of respect you should give fellow human beings means they have earned someone's attention or love. Or they'll assume that friendship is a precursor to love. It can be, but it isn't by default. By contrast, the men that "nice guys" describe as "assholes" (this is generally just guys who have some success with women) usually fulfill more of the preconditions that women have for romantic relationships.

Nice guys fail to see that the guys they label "assholes" usually put some effort in trying to attract or seduce a woman. They flirt with her. They indicate interest and if no interest is forthcoming in return they move on. Some of them will keep on trying or can't help flirting with every woman, but women love a chivalrous kind of incorrigible flatterer who has the emotional intelligence to recognize limits and doesn't cross over into harassment territory. Meanwhile, a real asshole (the "nice guy") is incapable of presenting himself as a potential suitor, and if he does indicate interest and the person he'shiatting on isn't interested in return, he responds by lashing out against the person who isn't interested in him. That's what makes the "nice guy" the primary asshole of modern courtship. And it is the real reason why women steer clear of assholes/"nice guys". They have the stunted emotional maturity of a tween and their entire method to try to attract somebody is to completely refuse to make an effort, and they are guaranteed to somehow blame and guilt trip the woman when this strategy of seduction fails. This is what separates an asshole-niceguy from a doomed suitor who is still at least a doomed suitor, ie someone who at least makes an effort to make a woman feel good about herself, which is at least flattering, and who doesn't react to rejection by lashing out. The asshole-nice guy takes rejection far too personally, instead of recognizing that there's a lot of types of people out there and that not fitting someone's type is just a thing that happens. If that hot girl at the bar shoots you down because what she really wants is a 50-something guy, or a guy who looks like he was on Jersey Shore, or a skinny hipster, or a nerd, and you don't fit these qualities somehow, eh bien, that's life. But not so for the asshole-niceguy. The asshole-niceguy is going to take this as a sign that she despises him and finds him unworthy (he might genuinely have some self-esteem crisis here) and that she is a b*tch and the men she likes are terrible people and somehow aren't good enough for her even though she is a b*tch, etc. The asshole-niceguy is characterized by a combination of personal narcissism/inflated sense of importance, easily shattered self-esteem, unrealistic expectations and an infinite capacity for bitterness and interpersonal aggression. Asshole-niceguys are especially toxic when they fixate on a girl who they consider superqualified to be with them, or unqualified to be with someone else like a gamer girl or a girl nerd or whatever. Nowhere in this calculation does the girl's interests or desires warrant consideration. As a nerdy girl, it's astounding the number of times I've run into "nice guys" who think that I ought to reward their interest with my love because they have condescended to hit on me, condescended because our common interests place me on some lower level in their hierarchy of women, rather than higher. Oh honey... get the fark out.

/sidebar: a decent BDSM top is the exact opposite of an asshole-niceguy. A good top has a superior level of communication, respect, trustworthiness, and emotional intelligence/capacity for observation. A good top isn't an asshole, a good top is dedicated to giving someone a really interesting sensory or fantasy experience and totally gets off that and the sense of power that comes with.

akula: Magnanimous_J: Women are being dishonest because they come to rely on the man's friendship as being a boyfriend placeholder.

Much truth in this statement. I've seen women claim that "nice guys" are being manipulative. The guys are more fooled than they are manipulating; they're doing what they think women want. That's the problem. However, the guys see it as paying one's dues while the women claim manipulation. It's no more manipulative than a women who thinks that guy is running around with her and buying her drinks because he's a swell fellow. She's greatly mistaken, just as he is. The woman is using the man to fill her time until she finds a guy she does like, he's using her to try and worm his way into her heart. Both are on the wrong track.

This is the difference between 'friends' and 'friendzone'. Friends are just that with no aim of making it more. A big clue to the difference between friends and friendzone is that in the friendzone the guy always buys the drinks. Friends go dutch or take turns buying.

Wow, what great advice. If you are a guy who has a hard time picking up girls because you are too feminine I'D RECOMMEND WRITING THE MSNBC 30 SECOND THERAPIST COLUMN FOR ADVICE THEY WILL HELP FOR SURE.

DrWhy: Friends go dutch or take turns buying.

If you are just friends, can you still put a finger in a dike?

IrateShadow: Eh, these days I'm happier without women. I don't think I've ever met one that wasn't on or in need of some serious meds.

^^^^ THIS ^^^^

verucabong: I'm a nice guy. But I didn't get my girlfriend because I'm a nice guy. I got it because I'm a man. I'm assertive. I'm confident. I get shiat done when it needs to be done. And I have a life outside of my girlfriend.

Simple as that.

My friend, you have hit the proverbial nail right on the head. Thank you!

IHadMeAVision: fickenchucker:
Conclusion--I drank the Kool-Aid and bought the lie girls need to be treated with chivalry and respect on a different level than fellow guys. Girls are just as indecisive, shallow, and horney--they're no different.

I didn't figure this out until I was twenty, and looking back I go "daaaaammn I could've farked mad biatches for a skinny guy." I had no trouble getting girlfriends, had dozens--I had trouble because I'd "respect" them so much they got horny as hell and stopped waiting for me to make a move by dumping me. In a few cases my dumb ass dumped a horny chick I wasn't afraid to make a move on because I decided I had no future with them and "then I'd just be using her" ::gag:: After 3 days in one instance. I probably only had to wait a week for the poon. Ugh I was so gay.



Spot on.

Since this is totally anonymous, I can be honest. From 14 on I was never without a girlfriend for more than two or three weeks. In hindsight I could have banged them all, except for maybe one or two. My problem was exactly what he said. I had this weird thing drilled into me that I had to help girls protect themselves from---themselves. The worst case of me being too noble for my own good was when I was a Junior dating a Senior in high school. This insane (in a good way) redhead got naked in the choir practice room, on a boat, in the lake, in my room, in her room, and in her friend's basement. And I turned her down every time to protect her from herself.

And there were more incidences like that with others over the years. Another one was naked in the back seat of my car in a parking garage. Of course my response was to say "Put your clothes back on. We have dinner reservations."

I was an idiot.

/Eventually got married. Wifey met the naked-in-the-back-seat one and can confirm the chick was way hot and I was a moran for not tapping it.

Needlessly Complicated: Can't you guys just... you know... treat women like they're people?

That would work if women were people. We are not. Yes, we are human. However, we are all crazy. It is just what degree of crazy.

I want a man who is tall, smart, employed. If you drive a fancy, expensive car (Mercedes, Ferrari, BMW) keep on walking. If you get manicures. If your hands are smooth and you do not know the difference between a screwdriver and a hammer, you are a pussy.

Drive a muscle car, know how to work on cars, teach me how to work on my car, like sports, drink beer, eat bacon, tell me to cook for you, kill bugs, get things off of high shelves, open tight jars, and don't treat me like I can break when you are farking me, and I will put out.

If there isn't mascara on my knees when we are done, it was done wrong.

I'm not sure if I'm a nice guy. Probably not. I haven't gotten that far.

Due to an unfortunate series of experiences, I've never acquired the skill of expressing that I'm having fun. Mostly because I'm incapable of enjoying anything. Minor detail. I'd like to try being a friend or companion to someone, as there is a decent chance that it would be an improvement over solitude, but I'm not sure where to start. From my interactions with others I'd guess that I'm somehow frightening, but it's not clear why. I think that might be getting in the way. So far, being in good shape, maintaining good hygiene, being formally educated, and having a good job have not helped.

Any suggestions?

Everyone missed the reality.

http://www.laddertheory.com/

I have yet to find a better explanation

bobbette: sidebar: a decent BDSM top is the exact opposite of an asshole-niceguy. A good top has a superior level of communication, respect, trustworthiness, and emotional intelligence/capacity for observation. A good top isn't an asshole, a good top is dedicated to giving someone a really interesting sensory or fantasy experience and totally gets off that and the sense of power that comes with.

You have also hit the nail right on the head. Good call!

So the breakdown looks like:

Money and Power: 50%

Attraction: 40%

Things Women Say They Care About But Do Not: 10%
(this includes intelligence, sense of humor, honesty, sensitivity etc. )

As to the first point, that of money. Well most guys know that women dig guys with money. Would Donald Trump be farking models if he wasn't rich? That question is rhetorical. Now I don't even believe this is wrong, I think it is just nature. But I also think women who are this way (and it is almost all of you) should be honest and admit that they are basically whores, and stop saying bad things about the so-called "actual whores" who are just trying to earn an honest living.

Most women read this and say something like, "Well I'm not the average woman because..blah...blah...not true...blah blah...my boyfriend/lover/husband/masseuse was poor...blah...blah."

If you thought something like this you are very likely the average woman. If you read it and went "Hmmm..." and then you went back to doing physics, then you have a case.

Looks are not to be discounted. I see many girls revert to about a seventh grade emotional level when they see some guy at the club, or some guy from a crappy movie. I think everyone has seen this phenomena, and it seems to have become an alarming trend in women of increasing age.

The attraction category is broken down further in the next section. This is a change from previous versions of the ladder theory that included looks here instead of attraction. I feel this is a more accurate depiction, as evidenced by experiment and peer review.

The last 10% was my effort to give women the benefit of the doubt. A common question men ask of women is "Tell me what you want in a man?", which is like asking how many guys she's slept with, an invitation to be lied to. Because she'll almost invariably answer with some combination of

• sense of humor
• intelligence
• sensitivity
• emotional stability

As far as I can tell this is mostly rubbish. But in an effort to be fair I have included this, since there seem to be a few rare cases of this. Just none that I have ever seen.

Another thing to watch out for is the code words women use. Here is a translation guide for dealing with women.

Says: I want a man who is motivated and has goals.
Means: I want a rich man

Says: I want a man who knows how to treat a woman.
Means: I want a rich man

Says: He's from a really good family.
Means: He's from a really rich family.

I'm sure you get the point. Let's move on

As always, gay is the solution to everything.

Nice guys should try being gay. It's just... there seems to be so much less bullshiat. Yeah, the dumb pretty ones still tend to go home with assholes but that just takes two unpleasant groups out of the equation and it's not exactly rocket surgery to find someone else whose endgame is getting laid.

Girls should stop being friends with nice guys who only want to get in their pants and instead find a gay friend. Nice guys don't give nearly as good backrubs and with the gay friend there's no awkward sexual tension.