It *might* be easier to pick up women if masturbation was impossible.
But with the advent of masturbation, you end up satisfied like all the time. So you don't care if women reject you.

Non-masturbators on the other hand would try things like rape.

Incog_Neeto: The difference between "Nice Guys" and "Assholes" is they are using different methods to get exactly the same thing. "Assholes" get it more often making them more successful.

If the "nice guy" approach falls, all the time expended is a loss. If the "asshole" approach falls through, the feedback is immediate. Even if they had the exact same chance of working, the asshole approach would come out ahead due to sheer volume.

Both men and women share the blame on the "friendzone" issue.

Men are being dishonest because, like others have posted, they believe that being "nice" will eventually earn them a relationship. Their friendship is an insidious ploy to get as close as possible and wait for the perfect vulnerable moment to weasel a physical relationship out of her.

Women are being dishonest because they come to rely on the man's friendship as being a boyfriend placeholder. I seriously doubt that women in this situation have an illusions to the fact that they are leading this moron on. Besides, the dynamic of heterosexual relationships is very much like the Morpheus picture above. I give you attention, money, resources and security; you give me a crack at it.

Either way, for guys who keep getting friendzoned: STOP BEING FRIENDS WITH WOMEN! Express your intentions and if you get rejected, move on. Listening to her sob on the phone about her crappy boyfriend while you bide your time is not worth the brain damage!

If you are tired of being the nice guy here's one simple rule that I discovered:

Do not allow her to discuss another man in your presence.

When you allow her to discuss another man in your presence, you automatically lose alpha status. So if she starts whining about another guy, either change the subject or get up and leave but don't let her unload on you, that's what her girlfriends are for.

Magnanimous_J: I seriously doubt that women in this situation have an illusions to the fact that they are leading this moron on.

It no doubt varies from person to person, but don't rule out self delusion. It's not that difficult to lead someone on while convincing yourself that you're not leading them on, especially if it's been a while since you've gotten that sort of attention.

Some girls grow up being told 'yes' their entire lives, and they might find that approach from a male as boring, and you may get that 'nice guy' tag. Just tell her 'no' everyonceinawhile, she'll find that new and exhilarating.
/and yes, some of those girls have dada issues.

Magnanimous_J: Express your intentions and if you get rejected, move on.

Unfortunately the "I'm stuck in the friend zone" tards never seem to get this. You're not stuck in the friend zone, you're loitering in it.

While I will admit to some of the indecisive behavior when I was younger the "anti-nice-guy" critics mention, I'll give you my CSB from my dating days.

Mid-high-school-age I asked a couple of girls to go out. They turned me down and friendzoned me. I had to hear all of the wonderful stories about the virginities they lost and the great guys they were plowing. Those great guys threw them to the curb after a few months.

The next school year the girls asked me to go out with them (at different times, of course). I was pissed for not being good enough with fresh territory, but good enough now that they were taken out for a spin and tossed aside.

Wash, rinse, repeat a few more times, although I did have other dates and girlfriends as the years went by.

At wit's end I pretended to be a d-bag bad boy as an experiment. Got two overly-hot girlfriends within three days, both of them begging for wild shiat in the back seat of my parent's car. One knew about the other and was totally cool with it. She even thought it was cool if I did the second one the same evening after the date with the first one concluded.

The whole process opened my eyes. Girls in high school and college are way more bizarre than my parents taught me to expect, and gravitate to bad boys until about 23. Coincidentally that's post-college and edging closer to settling down and breeding.

Conclusion--I drank the Kool-Aid and bought the lie girls need to be treated with chivalry and respect on a different level than fellow guys. Girls are just as indecisive, shallow, and horney--they're no different.

Secondary conclusion--All this crap about pre-18-year-old girls being victims of predatory abuse is a crock of crap. If it's FARK-cool a female teacher can get hogged by a high school student, then I don't really lose too much sleep when a high school girl rides the male gym teacher. (Real abuse of pre-teens is different)

Tertiary conclusion--If I could do it all over again I would pretend to be the bad boy right from the start and tear through the "fairer" sex like Sherman through Atlanta.

Being the Nice Guy is a really good way to get to know women in your twenties. At some point, you'll decide you've had enough, and you will become Confident Guy. Then the pussy basically camps out on your car. But until then you have to put in your dues.

Aar1012: it shows you think we should use them like doggy treats whenever you do the human equivalent of a jumping trick.

So like after marriage?

Hey, there's always fat chicks.

Incog_Neeto: If I try to get rid of all the Jews by rounding them up and gassing them I'm an "Asshole" but that doesn't mean that if I'm trying to get rid of all the Jews but sterilizing them while they sleep I'm a "Nice Guy". I'm still trying to eliminate the Jews, the only difference is the method.

Did you just Godwin a thread with no racial content whatsoever?

Pocket Ninja: I can't be bothered to read TFA, but I wonder if it might have anything remotely to do with the vast majority of self-described "nice guys" actually being shy, anti-social wallflowers with doormat tendencies who approach everything in their lives from a passive stance and define any male who interrupts their three-hour flirtation process, which more or less involves sitting silently at a bar and casting surreptitious glances at the pretty girl a few seats over when she's not looking, as a loud-mouthed asshole.

awww

always nice being noticed

Just being nice isn't enough... nice and boring = die alone.

The reality is you can't friend your way into a woman's heart. She decides 5 seconds after meeting you if she's ever going to bang you.

One of the best ways to get a girls number is to insult her right off the bat. It's strange but true.

women are psychotic that way.

jaybeezey: One of the best ways to get a girls number is to insult her right off the bat. It's strange but true.

women are psychotic that way.

Not strange. They want redemption. Works almost every time.

akula: Here's a few facts:

The self described "nice guys" have bought a bill of goods being sold by crappy romantic comedies and pop songs. They are told that if they're the friend and they are there, the woman will one day realize he's all she ever wanted. This is bullshiat.

The truth of the matter is that this means the man has nothing really in his life, either for him to focus on or for her to join in... nothing but his feeling of unrequited love. Nobody wants to join in with that crap.

To get out of this, the man must find some other driving force in his life- get out and DO those things he thinks he one day might like to do. Quit waiting, start making it happen, whether you're accompanied or not. Travel, work on a sports car, just do what you really want to do. Even if it's better with somebody else, you're at least having fun in the meantime.

This will build an actual life, which will lend confidence, which in turn helps transform the man from a beta male type wishy washy guy (who is comforting but can never get the girl's motor running) into a guy with some alpha tendencies (but hopefully without a hard core alpha instability that some have), and that itself is attractive to women. Instead of starting off in the friend zone hoping she'll see who he really is, he has something to offer from the get go and she'll see that.

So in other words, quit being what you think the women want and be who you actually ARE. If they don't like that, to hell with 'em, they'd not have stayed around anyway. If they do, great.

/Former "nice guy"

What he said.

When it comes to men, women are idiots.

"You knowingly dated an ex-con who talks with his fists. You are the only one who was surprised when he drained your savings, beat you, and left you destitute. Sorry, I have a little trouble feeling sorry for you."

I like nice guys.

I am not sexually attracted to nice guys who are physically unattractive/fat.

Can't you guys just... you know... treat women like they're people?

You can't play with her endzone if you're stuck in the friendzone.

Needlessly Complicated: Can't you guys just... you know... treat women like they're people?

That's needlessly complicated.

Captain Kickass: You can't play with her endzone if you're stuck in the friendzone.

You´ll get no Breasty if you´re one of her Besties.

fickenchucker: The whole process opened my eyes. Girls in high school and college are way more bizarre than my parents taught me to expect, and gravitate to bad boys until about 23. Coincidentally that's post-college and edging closer to settling down and breeding.

Depending on your College culture, the girls could be more interested in settling down at that age too, but your point is solid.

All the swaybacked, wheezy old horses will start to come off the wild plains and want to live at your farm and eat your hay and live in your warm barn :-)

Just try not to get bitter about it. Yes, its a basically selfish realization that their head-turning days are over and they want some security before they end up 40, sitting at a dive bar, sucking an off brand cigarette through a hole in their throat.

You have to realize that life you are selfish too. You wouldn't want them if they weren't beautiful, and they won't want you unless you have something to offer.

Snarfangel: Needlessly Complicated: Can't you guys just... you know... treat women like they're people?

That's needlessly complicated.

Golf Clap!

Needlessly Complicated: Can't you guys just... you know... treat women like they're people?

And get labeled a "Nice Guy"?

This whole "nice guy" meme smacks of projection to me. Women are attracted to assholes but some part of them feels like they shouldn't be. To alleviate this feeling, modern women have had to convince themselves that the guys they are rejecting are actually worse than the ones they're choosing. Enter the cult of the "Nice Guy".

Iggymac: Captain Kickass: You can't play with her endzone if you're stuck in the friendzone.

You´ll get no Breasty if you´re one of her Besties.

You get plenty of tail if you're almost in jail.

Corporate Self: When it comes to men, women are idiots.

"You knowingly dated an ex-con who talks with his fists. You are the only one who was surprised when he drained your savings, beat you, and left you destitute. Sorry, I have a little trouble feeling sorry for you."

I can't believe the men who knowingly marry self centered emasculating harpies. I don't feel sorry for those guys at all when they're left destitute and removed from the lives of their children. They condoned that woman's behavior by marrying her.

Snarfangel: Iggymac: Captain Kickass: You can't play with her endzone if you're stuck in the friendzone.

You´ll get no Breasty if you´re one of her Besties.

You get plenty of tail if you're almost in jail.

You'll never score pussy if you treat her like a person.

/I'm bad at rhyming

Needlessly Complicated: Can't you guys just... you know... treat women like they're people?

Sure, just as soon as they start acting like it.

flyinghouse99: I like nice guys.

I am not sexually attracted to nice guys who are physically unattractive/fat.

See, fellow fellas? It's not that hard to get.

Additionally- One of the most rewarding friendships of my life is with a woman. At no point have I considered it a sex transaction. Women: People too. Believe it or not!

akula: Here's a few facts:

The self described "nice guys" have bought a bill of goods being sold by crappy romantic comedies and pop songs. They are told that if they're the friend and they are there, the woman will one day realize he's all she ever wanted. This is bullshiat.

The truth of the matter is that this means the man has nothing really in his life, either for him to focus on or for her to join in... nothing but his feeling of unrequited love. Nobody wants to join in with that crap.

To get out of this, the man must find some other driving force in his life- get out and DO those things he thinks he one day might like to do. Quit waiting, start making it happen, whether you're accompanied or not. Travel, work on a sports car, just do what you really want to do. Even if it's better with somebody else, you're at least having fun in the meantime.

This will build an actual life, which will lend confidence, which in turn helps transform the man from a beta male type wishy washy guy (who is comforting but can never get the girl's motor running) into a guy with some alpha tendencies (but hopefully without a hard core alpha instability that some have), and that itself is attractive to women. Instead of starting off in the friend zone hoping she'll see who he really is, he has something to offer from the get go and she'll see that.

So in other words, quit being what you think the women want and be who you actually ARE. If they don't like that, to hell with 'em, they'd not have stayed around anyway. If they do, great.

/Former "nice guy"

Yup. Nothing like sales-breath to send the ladies running the other way. On the other hand, if you're not trying to sell something, then you clearly have something worth buying. Get on with your life and the ladies will sort themselves out.

#1 rule: No free samples.

TravisBickle62: If you are tired of being the nice guy here's one simple rule that I discovered:

Do not allow her to discuss another man in your presence.

When you allow her to discuss another man in your presence, you automatically lose alpha status. So if she starts whining about another guy, either change the subject or get up and leave but don't let her unload on you, that's what her girlfriends are for.

Yeah. That...

Confidence is sexy. Nice guys are often just unconfident guys who overcompensate by being as kind to girls as they wish girls would be to them. I know, I'm one of them.

Women that I'm actually interested in: I put in way too much effort with, and almost always end up friendzoned, or in a relationship with really poor sexual chemistry.

Women that I'm not interested in or only mildly attracted to: I barely give them the time of day, don't call unless I'm supremely bored and have nothing better to do, never buy them dinner. Since I don't care about scaring them off, I get really kinky with 'em just to make things interesting between the sheets. I've had a few of this situation so far in my life, and every time I call things off because they inevitably try to turn the no-strings-attached arrangement into a committed relationship, and I've never been that interested in one with them.

I ended up being TL;DR, but the coles notes version is this: treating girls with disinterest turns them into nympho freaks who will do anything to keep you coming back. Actually being seriously into a girl seems to be the best way to turn them off.

impaler: Nice guys: their friendship is an insidious ploy to have a relationship.

Or... they're trying to make themselves attractive in the only way they can/know how. That they've settled on a way that doesn't work shouldn't be held against them.

Not everyone is out to get you.

Men: People just like everyone else.

I Browse: Hey, there's always fat chicks.

The "nice guys" of the female world?

Ok, guys I'll save you time. I used to get friend zoned so much that I had an apartment there.

It's simple: make it clear early on and without being ambiguous or stupid that you are interested in her and you are interested in her in a very not-just-friends sort of way. This makes you someone that she can't just friend zone and forget. "This guy likes me, I have to do/tell him something."

If she's not interested, don't take it personally and move on. She missed an opportunity, you lost nothing.

One crazy thing I've noticed is that if a woman says something along the lines of "Im not usually attracted to a guy like you/him but..." and then describes a bunch of reasons thats pretty much women's signal for "BANG. NOW."

/at least from my life experience
//your milage may vary

Nice guys, learn to dance.

Not just any kind of jump-out-on-the-floor-and-twitch-rhythmically dancing. Square dancing and line dancing don't do it. Pre-defined routines don't count either, so no ballet for you. Learn a dance where you have to lead. This will entail putting your clammy hands on girl-flesh, so screw up your confidence, because you're in this for the long haul.

Myself, I learned Salsa and Merengue in a club, rather than a dance studio. One advantage of the instruction I had there is that you were expected to rotate partners so you'd learn to lead the dance, not just the lady you came with (if you came with one at all).

You'll have to get an important concept in your head: When you lead, it's not about you getting her to do what you want. It about you making her look good.

Improvise. Change things up. Have a few moves in your back pocket that you can whip out when you're stumped. Keep moving for the whole song. Whatever you do, make her look good. For everything you do that's flashy, lead her in something more flashy, more frequent.

Smile, and why not, you're accomplishing something. She looks awesome, and you helped bring that out. That's the ultimate in value proposition: no matter how good she looks, you can make her look even better.

Then offer her a drink.

/CSB: My results: met wife at said club. Almost eleven years of marriage and two kids later, she's still smoking hot. She also has two (STEM) doctorates, picked up an MBA almost as an afterthought and makes three times what I do.