FARK.com: (7106077) News: when asked for one word to primarily describe Christianity, 91% of young non-Christians answer "antihomosexual." Fark: so do 80% of Christians

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(Rachel Held Evans.com)		News: when asked for one word to primarily describe Christianity, 91% of young non-Christians answer "antihomosexual." Fark: so do 80% of Christians (rachelheldevans.com)		457
		More: Interesting, Christian Answers, Christianity, Christian Colleges, negative images, Barna Group, David Kinnaman

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meat0918		2012-05-15 12:49:22 PM

Edward Rooney Dean of Students: clyph: Edward Rooney Dean of Students: Christians don;t want ANYONE to go to hell,

Preponderance of evidence refutes this position.

I said Christians, not "church-goers". There's a difference.

They call themselves Christians, and say they believe in Jesus.

I would ask you to re-read what you posted just a moment ago.

Edward Rooney Dean of Students: Corporate Self: "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned." - Luke 6:37

And this. Christians are not called to judge, we are called to love as Christ loves us. That's it.

JackieRabbit		2012-05-15 12:51:13 PM

mcgreggers99: American Christians are at the same time both the most selfish and most giving people on the face of the earth. We mean well, but are easily misled. We as the general public don't hear much about the "good" that comes from the Christian faith, because bad news usually sells better. Believers here are selfish, but those of us who give of our time and money and energy do so not to draw attention to ourselves, but to bring glory to God.

This article does bring into focus the SEVERE difference in generational imperatives in the American Christian tradition. Older Christians in this country focus on things that they really shouldn't spend so much time and energy on anymore.

I think American Christianity needs to change the manner in which it presents itself to stay culturally relevant,

You're being too general in your use of "American Christianity." Christians in America are far more diverse than in most countries. I can assure you that there are huge differences between an Episcopalian and a Southern Baptist. The differences between an Episcopalian and a member of one of these whacked, non-aligned "evangelical" is so great that one would wonder if they are worshipping the same god.

It is not possible for Christianity to remain culturally relevant for much longer. The natural evolution of every society is from religiosity to secularism. Christianity is already almost irrelevant in Europe and, in real terms, has been in general decline here in America for some years now. One of the reasons the Christian right has become so shrill is that they recognize this trend and it scares them.

mcgreggers99		2012-05-15 12:51:59 PM

Boatmech: mcgreggers99: djZorbof: Edward Rooney Dean of Students: djZorbof: Completely off topic question for the Christians: Say a guy or girl goes their entire life without hearing about Jesus and then dies. Is he/she farked?

What about children and infants?

A lot of that depends on the theology the Christian in question holds to (christianity is extremely diverse), but in general:
1) for the person that never hears, they cannot enter heaven. The caveat is, that's the Christian's fault for not reaching them. That's the whole point behind the Great Commission.
2) I think most denominations hold that chldren have a "age of accountibility", essentially when they're old enough to determine right from wrong.

All of the above is very general and should be taken with a large grain of salt.

I don't know. I would find it hard to worship someone who would send to hell someone who lived a good charitable life and happened to be raised and devoted to another religion or no religion at all.
____________________________________________________________________
That's kinda the whole point. As the story goes...

We as people born after the "Fall" are so steeped in sin we can't see how horrible we really are. God cannot even look upon sin. He is so far above comprehension and understanding we can't know his ways. He is pure justice, and pure goodness. Hell when boiled down to it's most basic description is essentially an eternity separated from God. We're all inherently sinful creatures. We inherit sin from our parents as they did from theirs etc going back to the original sin of Adam and Eve. Sin is passed by way of the man, so since Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit he had no Earthly father. When he died, he died in our place taking the full brunt and wrath of God's judgement against sin. If you accept his sacrifice for in your place then God the Father effectively see's Jesus in your place. If you refuse Jesus' sacrifice and don't believe then you still face the inevitable wra ...

That's easy.

Christ is alive.

It's the only belief system ever created who places the focus on the fact that we CAN'T improve our standing in the sight of God. Every other "religion" comes from a place of the believer having to try harder, or do more to "achieve" elightenment.

Salvation in Christianity is a gift. It is free. You simply have to believe that a man died and rose again. It's so simple that it's difficult.

stonicus		2012-05-15 12:52:17 PM

JDAT: This is a very tolerant country to gays. I really see no justification for all the complaints. It's not like this is Iran.

images.wikio.com

There's no gay people in Iran!!

Edward Rooney Dean of Students		2012-05-15 12:52:26 PM

meat0918: I would ask you to re-read what you posted just a moment ago.

I get what you're trying to do, but I should clarify. We are not called to judge non-Christians. We ARE however, called to police those that call themselves followers of Christ. That's what Paul's letters were all about.

darkyn		2012-05-15 12:54:50 PM

rubi_con_man: Homophobic isn't a word. It's a slur concocted to attack those who don't homonormitivism is a good thing.

The word "homophobia" was coined by George Weinberg in 1972 to cover the fear, loathing and/or contempt some heterosexual men have towards homosexuals.

"Homonormatism" on the other hand...

roadmarks		2012-05-15 12:55:00 PM

JDAT: This is a very tolerant country to gays. I really see no justification for all the complaints. It's not like this is Iran.

It's not like gays are real Americans after all, why should they expect equal status with straight America.

Equal rights for all? Pah, they should just be grateful they don't live elsewhere.

/do you ever think about how you sound?
//fyi: a citizen is a citizen is a citizen

CheekyMonkey		2012-05-15 12:56:52 PM

rubi_con_man: jst3p: I am an enclosed space?

You must be retarded-aphobic, because that is one of the dumbest things I have read in the last 42 days.

Meh, but I bet you believe the "homophobes are closeted queers" angle, right?

Some of them are. Most are just straight-up douchebags, though.

Dr Dreidel		2012-05-15 12:56:59 PM

Boatmech: Amazing. All this just to justify believing in a fairy tale.
`
How is your Religion any different from all the others that are no longer practiced?

Dude, it's a philosophy. It's a belief about morality - the source of it, and the rules for observing that morality. Just because other religions and faiths have been abandoned doesn't mean that their individual philosophical tenets are without merit.

You and I believe that morality is independent of faith. Many people of faith understand this as well. However, that also means that there is no single correct answer to the questions "What is Moral?" and "What is Morality?"

Ergo, your implication that religion is "incorrect" is based on bad logic and an incorrect understanding about the nature of religious observance. Let the believers have their faith, and they will let us have our nonfaith. If you start belittling their faith, it becomes all the more easy for them to belittle our nonfaith, and seeing as we're vastly outnumbered, this is not a good strategy.

Play nice with the other kids, and only when someone starts throwing punches may you punch back.

// people believing in Ra, Jesus, Aquabuddha, YHVH, The Virgin mary or any other fictional character - or having a spouse from the same sex/gender - doesn't harm me at all
// people forcing me to observe their observances or imposing doctrines of faith in law - THAT's a problem

FormlessOne		2012-05-15 12:57:20 PM

mcgreggers99: The problem that most Christians have is that they view sin as a tiered system when it's not. We are all inherently sinful, making gay rights into such a huge deal doesn't help spread Christ's love AT ALL.

Oddly enough, sin, at least according to the Catholic Church, is indeed tiered. Mortal sins are considered "worse" than venial sins.

mcgreggers99		2012-05-15 12:57:52 PM

Boatmech: Amazing. All this just to justify believing in a fairy tale.
`
How is your Religion any different from all the others that are no longer practiced?

(Reposting cause the question was cut off....)

That's easy.

Christ is alive.

It's the only belief system ever created who places the focus on the fact that we CAN'T improve our standing in the sight of God. Every other "religion" comes from a place of the believer having to try harder, or do more to "achieve" elightenment.

Salvation in Christianity is a gift. It is free. You simply have to believe that a man died and rose again. It's so simple that it's difficult.

Sofa King Smart		2012-05-15 12:59:36 PM

pompous ass-clowns wasn't an option?

Edward Rooney Dean of Students		2012-05-15 12:59:52 PM

FormlessOne: Oddly enough, sin, at least according to the Catholic Church, is indeed tiered. Mortal sins are considered "worse" than venial sins.

That's part of the reason protestantism exists (that, and priesthood of the believer, ie: we don't have to go through a priest to talk to God).

Edward Rooney Dean of Students		2012-05-15 01:00:42 PM

Edward Rooney Dean of Students: That's part of the reason protestantism exists (that, and priesthood of the believer, ie: we don't have to go through a priest to talk to God).

Not saying Catholics are wrong, just clarifying the difference (well, two differences, There are many).

roadmarks		2012-05-15 01:00:57 PM

mcgreggers99:
Salvation in Christianity is a gift. It is free. You simply have to believe that a man died and rose again. It's so simple that it's difficult.-i>

The whole problem is that one has to believe that one requires salvation.

Only two religions preach that one's BELIEF is more important than one's ACTIONS.

The difficult thing is believing in a God that is so petty he condemns people to suffer for all eternity because they got his name wrong, rather than actually living a good life.

Dr Dreidel		2012-05-15 01:01:26 PM

sisterinarms: Better yet, ask them where hell came from. Jews don't believe in hell. Christians made it up. Same god, but one has a son & a hell & the other doesn't.

False.

Jews don't believe in a fiery pit of sulfur and damnation, but we sure as shiat have divine punishment in the afterlife. It's one of Maimonedes' 13 Principles of Faith - there is divine reward and punishment.

There are some differences, like unless you're Hitler-levels of evil, you don't stay in hell for more than 11 months - which is why we say Kaddish (a memorial prayer) for 11 months after a relative dies. We don't want to believe they're supremely evil, but we know they're not saints.

I don't know where this misconception comes from, but it bewilders me.

CheekyMonkey		2012-05-15 01:04:41 PM

jst3p: rubi_con_man: jst3p: I am an enclosed space?

You must be retarded-aphobic, because that is one of the dumbest things I have read in the last 42 days.

Meh, but I bet you believe the "homophobes are closeted queers" angle, right?

Not at all, I used to be a "homophobe" in that I was a Christian who believed homosexuality was a sin and that the gays didn't deserve equal rights in the form of marriage.

I was not in the closet, I was just wrong.

Out of curiosity, what changed your mind?

\haven't made it through all the comments yet, so feel free to ignore this if it's already been asked and answered.

DON.MAC		2012-05-15 01:04:54 PM

rubi_con_man: The one in the front of John?

There is another in the old testament. There are references to many others.
/my religion instructor would not be proud of me.

Dr Dreidel		2012-05-15 01:05:23 PM

Dr Dreidel: like unless you're Hitler-levels of evil, you don't stay in hell for more than 11 12 months

Fun fact: the Reisheet Chachma (Origins of Wisdom) opens by explaining that the "divine punishment" is being boiled alive in a river of animal sweat. Since sin is believed to be an expression of the "animal soul*", the punishment is based on the effort (sweat equity) expended to commit it.

*In some early Jewish philosophy, there are 3 kinds of soul: "plant" (life), "animal" (locomotion) and "human" (speech/language; cognition).

HellRaisingHoosier		2012-05-15 01:06:20 PM

meat0918		2012-05-15 01:07:02 PM

Edward Rooney Dean of Students: meat0918: I would ask you to re-read what you posted just a moment ago.

I get what you're trying to do, but I should clarify. We are not called to judge non-Christians. We ARE however, called to police those that call themselves followers of Christ. That's what Paul's letters were all about.

I'm of the mind Paul corrupted a decent message for his own gain, but to each his own.

jst3p		2012-05-15 01:07:40 PM

CheekyMonkey: jst3p: rubi_con_man: jst3p: I am an enclosed space?

You must be retarded-aphobic, because that is one of the dumbest things I have read in the last 42 days.

Meh, but I bet you believe the "homophobes are closeted queers" angle, right?

Not at all, I used to be a "homophobe" in that I was a Christian who believed homosexuality was a sin and that the gays didn't deserve equal rights in the form of marriage.

I was not in the closet, I was just wrong.

Out of curiosity, what changed your mind?

\haven't made it through all the comments yet, so feel free to ignore this if it's already been asked and answered.

There wasn't a single thing that changed my mind. Over time I realized I was being a bigot and that marginalizing people because of their sexuality is just wrong.

I seem to be getting more socially liberal as I get older.

shortymac		2012-05-15 01:08:03 PM

On a side note, if you watch Penn's youtube video "an atheists guide to the election", he talks how this whole modern idea of "Christian" is brand new, it started in the 60's.

Previously, most Presidents never really mentioned their religious beliefs and no one would self-identify as a Christian, they would say their sect (Catholic, Baptist, etc). Each sect has wildly different beliefs, the only way to make them into a political action force was to homogenize them.

I personally hate what "Christian" has become in America, a force of hate and corporate socialism. (Jesus doesn't care about tax breaks!) All it means anymore is running around "praising him" and voting republican.

People wonder why people are leaving in droves.

Christianity as a whole needs to take itself back or it may be the death of it.

/religious beliefs- Humanist Unitarian Universalist with Deistic Christian leanings

roadmarks		2012-05-15 01:08:11 PM

mcgreggers99: Boatmech: Amazing. All this just to justify believing in a fairy tale.
`
How is your Religion any different from all the others that are no longer practiced?

(Reposting cause the question was cut off....)

That's easy.

Christ is alive.

It's the only belief system ever created who places the focus on the fact that we CAN'T improve our standing in the sight of God. Every other "religion" comes from a place of the believer having to try harder, or do more to "achieve" elightenment.

Salvation in Christianity is a gift. It is free. You simply have to believe that a man died and rose again. It's so simple that it's difficult.

You are just wrong.

Or at the very least grossly misinformed about other religions. But since you have so much contempt of others and pride in your beliefs that you insult two-thirds of the world by denigrating their faith by your use of quotes around the word religion that I doubt you will listen and take the chance to be educated about other religions.

Your self-righteousness will surely help non-believers see your light and rightness, and your God must be so pleased with how you show his love.

/tl;dr
// Jon Stewart would say "You're not helping"

indylaw		2012-05-15 01:08:23 PM

clyph: Christians are trying to retcon their doctrine so it's more palatable to outsiders and distance themselves from the people who aren't astute enough to mask the inherent bigotry and intolerance of their beliefs.

I assume that you are a theologian? Tell me how Christianity is inherently and irredeemably bigoted and intolerant. (I won't argue that many Christians are intolerant).

vudukungfu		2012-05-15 01:08:59 PM

I just call them assholes.
If they turn the other cheek, they are for reals.
If not, then they're proving my point.

mcgreggers99		2012-05-15 01:09:05 PM

roadmarks: mcgreggers99:
Salvation in Christianity is a gift. It is free. You simply have to believe that a man died and rose again. It's so simple that it's difficult.-i>

The whole problem is that one has to believe that one requires salvation.

Only two religions preach that one's BELIEF is more important than one's ACTIONS.

The difficult thing is believing in a God that is so petty he condemns people to suffer for all eternity because they got his name wrong, rather than actually living a good life.

Correct the belief is more important than the actions, but on the other hand the bible says those who believe and are truly "saved" do wind up changing and acting more "Christ-like" it is part of the process of sanctification or being set apart.

Doing good things (ie. Good works) and living a good moral life do not save you, but becoming a true believer in Christ does tend to change people. This is recorded in Matthew 7:16-17

16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit.

JDAT		2012-05-15 01:11:56 PM

roadmarks: JDAT: This is a very tolerant country to gays. I really see no justification for all the complaints. It's not like this is Iran.

It's not like gays are real Americans after all, why should they expect equal status with straight America.

Equal rights for all? Pah, they should just be grateful they don't live elsewhere.

/do you ever think about how you sound?
//fyi: a citizen is a citizen is a citizen

Not only are they real Americans but I make no distinction between straight America and gay America as you seem to. There is only "Americans" and if you actually understood the terms you throw out here you would know that they already have "equal rights".

Mongo No.5		2012-05-15 01:12:18 PM

political-terrorists

/am i doing this right?

roadmarks		2012-05-15 01:13:18 PM

Dr Dreidel: sisterinarms: Better yet, ask them where hell came from. Jews don't believe in hell. Christians made it up. Same god, but one has a son & a hell & the other doesn't.

False.

Jews don't believe in a fiery pit of sulfur and damnation, but we sure as shiat have divine punishment in the afterlife. It's one of Maimonedes' 13 Principles of Faith - there is divine reward and punishment.

There are some differences, like unless you're Hitler-levels of evil, you don't stay in hell for more than 11 months - which is why we say Kaddish (a memorial prayer) for 11 months after a relative dies. We don't want to believe they're supremely evil, but we know they're not saints.

I don't know where this misconception comes from, but it bewilders me.

Probably because for most people, the common definition of Hell is eternal and for all non-believers. Since it is not in the Jewish faith, it's probably easier to say that you "don't believe in Hell", rather than "yeah, we believe in Hell, but everyone, Jewish or otherwise, goes there for purification for a short period after death before all righteous people, Jewish or otherwise, get their share in the World to Come."

When you look at it like that, why would you want to say you have a Hell, since that term and all its associations are strictly Christian?

indylaw		2012-05-15 01:15:53 PM

Deucednuisance: /Atheist since my teens
//Still identify as Episcopalian, we have the best music
///1940 Hymnal, of course.

My dad was and is an atheist Republican Episcopalian. The 1982 Hymnal has been around since I was a toddler, so I have no comparison. And I'm more of an IPApalian.

GT_bike		2012-05-15 01:18:22 PM

mysticcat: I'm calling shenanigans on that number. I'd like to see if the question went something like, " Considering the fact that the Bible calls homosexuality an abomination do you think the Church is anti-homosexual or pro-homosexual?" It's very difficult to get 91% of people to answer one way unless the question is biased or the sample is biased.

FWIW, I agree with Rachel's stance overall.

Is that a wide stance?

roadmarks		2012-05-15 01:19:28 PM

JDAT: roadmarks: JDAT: This is a very tolerant country to gays. I really see no justification for all the complaints. It's not like this is Iran.

It's not like gays are real Americans after all, why should they expect equal status with straight America.

Equal rights for all? Pah, they should just be grateful they don't live elsewhere.

/do you ever think about how you sound?
//fyi: a citizen is a citizen is a citizen

Not only are they real Americans but I make no distinction between straight America and gay America as you seem to. There is only "Americans" and if you actually understood the terms you throw out here you would know that they already have "equal rights".

Really? I do? Tell me again how if my wife is hospitalized in NC, I'll be able to have my legal contract (Health care power of Attorney) recognized by the hospital, just like a husband would, since their latest amendment means that the hospital can't recognize it.

As a gay person, in a same-sex marriage, I can tell you that I do not have
"equal rights" because my right to contract with the person of my choice is limited by law.

If you do not see that as having "equal rights", then you are being blind to all the implications thereof.

Sofa King Smart		2012-05-15 01:22:12 PM

JDAT: "Christian" has become a generic term.

politics/GOP has done their best to 'brand' Christianity... the classic 'big tent'... room for everyone (as long as you associate with some sort of Christianity)... don't focus on those silly things that caused protestants to separate from Catholics and then further differences that created the calvinists, methodists, baptists, then southern baptists vs general baptists etc... were all one big happy group of "christians" (at least at each election)... come on, a vote for the GOP is a vote for Christ... those sodomite democrats want to wipe out religion... so if you want to get to heaven... you've gotta vote republican! onward christian soldiers!!!!

meat0918		2012-05-15 01:22:35 PM

mcgreggers99: roadmarks: mcgreggers99:
Salvation in Christianity is a gift. It is free. You simply have to believe that a man died and rose again. It's so simple that it's difficult.-i>

The whole problem is that one has to believe that one requires salvation.

Only two religions preach that one's BELIEF is more important than one's ACTIONS.

The difficult thing is believing in a God that is so petty he condemns people to suffer for all eternity because they got his name wrong, rather than actually living a good life.

Correct the belief is more important than the actions, but on the other hand the bible says those who believe and are truly "saved" do wind up changing and acting more "Christ-like" it is part of the process of sanctification or being set apart.

Doing good things (ie. Good works) and living a good moral life do not save you, but becoming a true believer in Christ does tend to change people. This is recorded in Matthew 7:16-17

16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit.

This is why people are confused when I tell them I am not a Christian. "But you do so many good things around here!". I could loudly proclaim that I yes, I am a non-believer, look at my good works; but I am also a humble bumble, and the praise makes me very uncomfortable as it is. Why add being obnoxious about it?

Yes this has happened. I do what I do because it makes my community more livable, and brings joy to people's lives.

And let's be honest, if 10ft tall sunflowers don't bring a smile to your face, well, your loss.

Boatmech		2012-05-15 01:23:50 PM

Dr Dreidel: Boatmech: Amazing. All this just to justify believing in a fairy tale.
`
How is your Religion any different from all the others that are no longer practiced?

Dude, it's a philosophy. It's a belief about morality - the source of it, and the rules for observing that morality. Just because other religions and faiths have been abandoned doesn't mean that their individual philosophical tenets are without merit.

You and I believe that morality is independent of faith. Many people of faith understand this as well. However, that also means that there is no single correct answer to the questions "What is Moral?" and "What is Morality?"

Ergo, your implication that religion is "incorrect" ....
`
I made no such impication nor did I ask about Morals.
`
....is based on bad logic and an incorrect understanding about the nature of religious observance.
`
Huh?
`
Let the believers have their faith, and they will let us have our nonfaith.
`
False. History is full of exaples of just how wrong that statement is.
`
If you start belittling their faith, it becomes all the more easy for them to belittle our nonfaith, and seeing as we're vastly outnumbered, this is not a good strategy.
`
So might makes right?
`

Play nice with the other kids, and only when someone starts throwing punches may you punch back.

// people believing in Ra, Jesus, Aquabuddha, YHVH, The Virgin mary or any other fictional character - or having a spouse from the same sex/gender - doesn't harm me at all
// people forcing me to observe their observances or imposing doctrines of faith in law - THAT's a problem

roadmarks		2012-05-15 01:24:05 PM

mcgreggers99: roadmarks: mcgreggers99:
Salvation in Christianity is a gift. It is free. You simply have to believe that a man died and rose again. It's so simple that it's difficult.-i>

The whole problem is that one has to believe that one requires salvation.

Only two religions preach that one's BELIEF is more important than one's ACTIONS.

The difficult thing is believing in a God that is so petty he condemns people to suffer for all eternity because they got his name wrong, rather than actually living a good life.

Correct the belief is more important than the actions, but on the other hand the bible says those who believe and are truly "saved" do wind up changing and acting more "Christ-like" it is part of the process of sanctification or being set apart.

Doing good things (ie. Good works) and living a good moral life do not save you, but becoming a true believer in Christ does tend to change people. This is recorded in Matthew 7:16-17

16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit.

You are missing the point entirely. If your God sends people to Hell because they live an otherwise righteous life, but pray to "Allah", not "God", yet takes to heaven the murderer who recites the magic formula in the right name, while the electrical chair is killing him, your God is pretty immature.

Only two religions claim that their deities care more about what name they get called, rather than the lives their followers lead. And even Islam makes exceptions for other "peoples of the book."

mcgreggers99		2012-05-15 01:25:56 PM

Sofa King Smart: JDAT: "Christian" has become a generic term.

politics/GOP has done their best to 'brand' Christianity... the classic 'big tent'... room for everyone (as long as you associate with some sort of Christianity)... don't focus on those silly things that caused protestants to separate from Catholics and then further differences that created the calvinists, methodists, baptists, then southern baptists vs general baptists etc... were all one big happy group of "christians" (at least at each election)... come on, a vote for the GOP is a vote for Christ... those sodomite democrats want to wipe out religion... so if you want to get to heaven... you've gotta vote republican! onward christian soldiers!!!!

*sigh*

And many many many people just check the box. I don't see a very huge difference between the major political parties anyway. More shades of grey than black and white. Candidates usually just speak whatever rhetoric is the mainstay of their party regardless of what they actually believe.

indylaw		2012-05-15 01:28:05 PM

Sofa King Smart: politics/GOP has done their best to 'brand' Christianity... the classic 'big tent'... room for everyone (as long as you associate with some sort of Christianity)...

Wrong. They have little to no room for most mainline Christians, who are steadily trending toward full LGBT equality and prefer to focus their mission work on "economic justice" issues. Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, we have been told by many on the right that they're not real Christians.

CheekyMonkey		2012-05-15 01:30:03 PM

jst3p: CheekyMonkey: jst3p: rubi_con_man: jst3p: I am an enclosed space?

You must be retarded-aphobic, because that is one of the dumbest things I have read in the last 42 days.

Meh, but I bet you believe the "homophobes are closeted queers" angle, right?

Not at all, I used to be a "homophobe" in that I was a Christian who believed homosexuality was a sin and that the gays didn't deserve equal rights in the form of marriage.

I was not in the closet, I was just wrong.

Out of curiosity, what changed your mind?

\haven't made it through all the comments yet, so feel free to ignore this if it's already been asked and answered.

There wasn't a single thing that changed my mind. Over time I realized I was being a bigot and that marginalizing people because of their sexuality is just wrong.

I seem to be getting more socially liberal as I get older.

Flip-flopper ;-)

jst3p		2012-05-15 01:30:54 PM

CheekyMonkey: Flip-flopper ;-)

Funny enough, my feelings on the matter evolved.

mcgreggers99		2012-05-15 01:33:21 PM

meat0918:

This is why people are confused when I tell them I am not a Christian. "But you do so many good things around here!". I could loudly proclaim that I yes, I am a non-believer, look at my good works; but I am also a humble bumble, and the praise makes me very uncomfortable as it is. Why add being obnoxious about it?

Yes this has happened. I do what I do because it makes my community more livable, and brings joy to people's lives.

And let's be honest, if 10ft tall sunflowers don't bring a smile to your face, well, your loss.

This world is running on a severe shortage of people who "do" without seeking a reward. If I met you I'd shake your hand and buy you a beer. No sarcasm inferred. Keep paying it forward. I wish you well.

clyph		2012-05-15 01:35:30 PM

Edward Rooney Dean of Students: We need to get our churches squared away first.

Which, by your definition, would be "Getting everyone to give us 10% of their income".

Nice. Because Jesus said "Show me the money" and not "The love of money is the root of all evil"

fark you and fark your church.

Want to be a REAL Christian? Try doing the following:
"Love your enemies; do good to those who hate you"
"Love your neighbor as you love yourself"
"Treat others as you would have others treat you"
"Don't judge others"
"Don't be a hypocrite"
"Give your excess food and clothes to the poor"
"Do good unto all men"
"Comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men"
"Prove all things; hold fast to what is good"
"Don't give heed to fables and endless genealogies"

Notice that "give the priest 10% of your money" and "go to church every Sunday" are NOT on that list.

Also none of those things requires a belief in a magic sky wizard, nor do they depend on a supernatural system of rewards and punishment. Good deeds are their own reward.

I drunk what		2012-05-15 01:36:49 PM

hmmm, this thread or the pro-lifers are racists thread...

decisions, decisions

/yay another gay thread

Boatmech		2012-05-15 01:42:17 PM

mcgreggers99: Boatmech: Amazing. All this just to justify believing in a fairy tale.
`
How is your Religion any different from all the others that are no longer practiced?

(Reposting cause the question was cut off....)

That's easy.

Christ is alive.

"
No. Your fantasy is alive. There are no gods.
`
It's the only belief system ever created who places the focus on the fact that we CAN'T improve our standing in the sight of God.
`
What God? Which one. OH YOUR God, not his or his or her God(tm) but YOUR One True Sky Wizard. Got it!
`
Every other "religion" comes from a place of the believer having to try harder, or do more to "achieve" enlightenment.
`
So it's 'religion' with quotes if you don't personally believe in it?
`

Salvation in Christianity is a gift. It is free. You simply have to believe that a man died and rose again. It's so simple that it's difficult.
`
Salvation in Pastafarism is gift too.
`
The bolded part is the problem. I don't buy into your delusions.

JDAT		2012-05-15 01:45:58 PM

roadmarks: JDAT: roadmarks: JDAT: This is a very tolerant country to gays. I really see no justification for all the complaints. It's not like this is Iran.

It's not like gays are real Americans after all, why should they expect equal status with straight America.

Equal rights for all? Pah, they should just be grateful they don't live elsewhere.

/do you ever think about how you sound?
//fyi: a citizen is a citizen is a citizen

Not only are they real Americans but I make no distinction between straight America and gay America as you seem to. There is only "Americans" and if you actually understood the terms you throw out here you would know that they already have "equal rights".

Really? I do? Tell me again how if my wife is hospitalized in NC, I'll be able to have my legal contract (Health care power of Attorney) recognized by the hospital, just like a husband would, since their latest amendment means that the hospital can't recognize it.

As a gay person, in a same-sex marriage, I can tell you that I do not have
"equal rights" because my right to contract with the person of my choice is limited by law.

If you do not see that as having "equal rights", then you are being blind to all the implications thereof.

No I fully understand the problems with States having different laws regarding same sex marriages and I understand the frustration that it causes when the status is taken away just because State lines are crossed. It's criminal in many ways.

Keep in mind though that marriage itself is not a right.

mcgreggers99		2012-05-15 01:46:02 PM

roadmarks: roadmarks:

You are missing the point entirely. If your God sends people to Hell because they live an otherwise righteous life, but pray to "Allah", not "God", yet takes to heaven the murderer who recites the magic formula in the right name, while the electrical chair is killing him, your God is pretty immature.

Only two religions claim that their deities care more about what name they get called, rather than the lives their followers lead. And even Islam makes exceptions for other "peoples of the book."

Two things here,

First its not about the "magic words." Only God knows someone's heart and motivations. I can't begin to know who actually goes to heaven and who doesn't. Anyone can make a profession of faith and have it not mean anything. It's more about the mind and heart coming together and understanding the truth of one's standing before God and that apart from Jesus we don't deserve anything but eternity separated from God.

That's the second thing, I believe salvation does revolve entirely around Jesus. He is my moral compass and my guide. What he said and what he did I try to emulate. I don't judge people. I don't put people down. I commune with drug addicts, prostitutes, alcoholics, and homosexuals. Society's outcasts are my friends. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. I would gladly welcome universalism and state that I wish all religions roads lead to the same end, but Christ himself stated otherwise.

Matthew 7:13-14 13 "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell[a] is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.

I drunk what		2012-05-15 01:46:43 PM

clyph: "Don't judge others"

then how can we know who are our enemies, feebleminded, etc...? without judgement

clyph: "Don't be a hypocrite"

you mean like when people say that christians are not to judge others?

clyph: do good to those who hate you"

"Do good unto all men"

"Prove all things; hold fast to what is good"

define good

clyph: "Love your enemies

sounds awful judgmental

clyph: "Love your neighbor as you love yourself"

does love include encouraging people to do immoral things? maybe we shouldn't judge, and just make sure everyone feels comfortable with whatever choices they've made...?

doesn't that sound, just lovely

Dr Dreidel		2012-05-15 01:50:31 PM

roadmarks: Probably because for most people, the common definition of Hell is eternal and for all non-believers. Since it is not in the Jewish faith, it's probably easier to say that you "don't believe in Hell", rather than "yeah, we believe in Hell, but everyone, Jewish or otherwise, goes there for purification for a short period after death before all righteous people, Jewish or otherwise, get their share in the World to Come."

When you look at it like that, why would you want to say you have a Hell, since that term and all its associations are strictly Christian?

Because when I learned about it in school, they called it 'hell'? And just how exactly, do Christians get to lay claim to the word 'hell'? Is it like 'marriage' now, where the rest of us just have to accept that it's YOUR word?

What we don't believe in is "eternal damnation".

Dr Dreidel		2012-05-15 01:58:26 PM

Boatmech: Let the believers have their faith, and they will let us have our nonfaith.
`
False. History is full of exaples of just how wrong that statement is.

That wasn't meant as a direct historical connection - "If we do X, they'll do Y" - it's an expression of the ideal. If everyone deals openly and fairly with everyone else, they won't begrudge our nonbelief if we don't belittle their belief. I realize this has not been the case, but that doesn't mean it can't be.

If you start belittling their faith, it becomes all the more easy for them to belittle our nonfaith, and seeing as we're vastly outnumbered, this is not a good strategy.
`
So might makes right?

No, but if you're a 98 pound weakling, it's not a good idea to throw a stick at the wrestlers' lunch table. Don't make yourself a target of a stronger group.

But also, don't be a doormat (which was the point of my OP). Let them believe as they choose (whether its a demonstrably silly belief or one as concrete as believing superstring theory without empirically verifying it), and intervene only when/if their stated beliefs cause harm to you or others.

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