And yet for all that the first thing that comes to mind when you say Catholic is "institutionalized gay kiddie rape"

Something about that link name creeps me out.

I'm calling shenanigans on that number. I'd like to see if the question went something like, " Considering the fact that the Bible calls homosexuality an abomination do you think the Church is anti-homosexual or pro-homosexual?" It's very difficult to get 91% of people to answer one way unless the question is biased or the sample is biased.

FWIW, I agree with Rachel's stance overall.

Christianity in general? That's debatable. Different sects have different stances on it. Overall, I'd say yeah.

The type of evangelical Protestantism the GOP endorses as "real" Christianity? Absolutely anti-gay to the point where that's the central focus of Republican Christianity. Even though Jesus never said a word about it. He was more a social justice kinda guy, but the GOP conveniently ignores that part.

mysticcat: I'm calling shenanigans on that number. I'd like to see if the question went something like, " Considering the fact that the Bible calls homosexuality an abomination do you think the Church is anti-homosexual or pro-homosexual?" It's very difficult to get 91% of people to answer one way unless the question is biased or the sample is biased.

FWIW, I agree with Rachel's stance overall.

But... but.. you're supposed to wharbargl. How do you think this thread is going to get any *traction* with reasoned opinions?

[Obvious] tag currently busy kneeling at a glory hole.

It's kind of funny how Christianity has become more of an excuse for asinine behavior than a religion. I guess it is inevitable given that there is a sort of tradition that religion can't be criticized or questioned, that it would become a cover for questionable things.

When you think about it, the Priesthood is the perfect cover if you are a homosexual child molester.

Lucky LaRue: How do you think this thread is going to get any *traction* with reasoned opinions?

Patience, young grasshopper. It will come.

mysticcat: I'm calling shenanigans on that number. I'd like to see if the question went something like, " Considering the fact that the Bible calls homosexuality an abomination do you think the Church is anti-homosexual or pro-homosexual?" It's very difficult to get 91% of people to answer one way unless the question is biased or the sample is biased.

FWIW, I agree with Rachel's stance overall.

I dunno. The bible calls many other things abominations, and also calls for many other positive actions. The argument is that Christianity is now being defined by and primarily associated with anti-homosexual stances. As opposed to, say, charity, loving thy brother, and all that shiat.

Is this situation (being defined by an anti-homosexual stance) temporary? Certainly. But since the GOP conservative movement is using churches to mobilize their base, some other social issue will take its place.

And it appears many religious people (particularly young ones) are getting sick of conservatives using and defining who they are, what believe in, and how strongly they believe it.

mysticcat: I'm calling shenanigans on that number. I'd like to see if the question went something like, " Considering the fact that the Bible calls homosexuality an abomination do you think the Church is anti-homosexual or pro-homosexual?" It's very difficult to get 91% of people to answer one way unless the question is biased or the sample is biased.

FWIW, I agree with Rachel's stance overall.

Yeah, I was going to say, this can't possibly have been a free association question, because without prompting, the phrase would be "Homophobic". No one says "antihomosexual" without the phrase being fed to them.

Also FWIW, it's completely accurate

Babwa Wawa: I dunno. The bible calls many other things abominations, and also calls for many other positive actions. The argument is that Christianity is now being defined by and primarily associated with anti-homosexual stances. As opposed to, say, charity, loving thy brother, and all that shiat.

In point of fact there's only a very small number of places in the bible that say anything at all about homosexuality, and none of them are in the "Christ said" part. Leviticus and then Paul quoting Leviticus are pretty much all there is.

On the other hand, Christ himself said over and over that if you want to really follow him (that's what Christianity is, right?) you need to sell everything you own and use the money to help the poor.

For the most part, "Christians" are not followers of Christ.

darkyn: Not surprising given that virtually all of the anti-gay groups in North America are Christian-based.

Virtually? Can you name one North American group that is "anti-homosexual" as a main agenda that doesn't have "Christian Values" as a main platform? About the only thing I could think is probably some Islamic groups as well, but, honestly, and I'll admit it isn't like I'm aware of their platforms deeply, but, I've never gotten the feeling that being "anti-homosexual" was a major part of any North American Islamic groups plank, although, obviously Islam has in it's base strong anti-homosexual beliefs as well, especially in Islamic nations, where many of those organizations operations reside.

I guess a better question would be, are there any groups that try to promote an "anti-homosexual" agenda that don't lean almost exclusively on religion (whether Christian, Islamic, or otherwise) as their reasoning for doing so?

I really don't believe this poll. That's simply not a word people use.

Theaetetus: But yes, it appears that the phrase was prompted or a list of phrases they could pick from:

Ah, I didn't read that. If the word was listed among a list of choices, then sure. I thought it was just a free-association thing, not a multiple choice thing.

DamnYankees: I really don't believe this poll. That's simply not a word people use.

I do believe it. Conservatives have used church-goers as their base in their fight against gay marriage. It's not surprising that Christianity is now being associated primarily with anti-gay measures.

In terms of who's leaving churches and why, it might not be this issue in particular, but rather the politicization of religion. I know plenty of christians (and even christian conservatives) who don't like their church being used so brazenly and exclusively by a political movement. Politics motivated by religion just sticks in the craw of a lot of folks. Outright theocracy is the natural outcome of that practice, and it's way too close to the stuff that poisons civil life elsewhere.

That is an awfully odd word for so many people to pull out of their ass.

ringersol: One might even go so far as to say that it's far more difficult to be a devoted and faithful Christian if you're supporting such hate and judgement.

One might say that, but the evidence of history would be against you.

This seems a little dubious. I'm non-Christian and care a lot about gay rights, but even I would not have made that my #1 word association.

Question: Do you absolutely with all your heart love & accept Jesus and hate gays?

Yes or no answers only please.

anti-homosexual is a word?

And 91% of young people came up with that word when asked the question?


How odd. More proof that English is a living language I suppose.

I'm intolerant of a religion that is intolerant.

It is amusing to me that when I talk to my evangelical, creationist, friend and I tell him that Genesis is allegorical he refutes this assessment with the argument that there is nothing to indicate allegory in the story... as he might say "A plain reading reveals it is true history. Even a 4th grader can see that.", but when I call him on his support of anti-gay initiatives, whatever they might be (he supports them all, needless to say), that is not bullying or violating the golden rule. By berating 'proud' or unrepentant homosexuals, they are simply trying to reveal their sin to them and call them to repent to the Lord and in doing so they are actually trying to 'save' the homosexuals from eternal damnation and hellfire. You see, they LOVE the homosexuals and it is only the unrepentant proud-to-be-gay one's that they attackspend their energy trying to show them the error of their ways. Homosexuals that repress their urges are the way God meant it to be and they are just fine.

Like a 4th grader is supposed to see grown-ups telling gays they are going to hell and take away from that that they 'love' them.

Well, isn't that how the song goes?

They will know that we are Christians by our disapproval of homosexuality,
By our disapproval of homosexuality
Yes, they'll know that we are Christians by our disapproval of homosexuality up to the point where we believe that bullying them should be our Constitutional right and to deny them the ability to be married and to adopt childre~~n

That's how we sang it, at least.