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(The New York Times)   Finally, with student debt topping $1 trillion, college presidents are waking up and recognizing that they might have to handle education costs through methods other than tuition increases. Maybe think about following a budget and things   (nytimes.com) divider line 405
    More: Obvious, student debt, establishments, tuition increases, sports memorabilia, Gordon Gee, tuition, higher educations, academic disciplines  
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8762 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 May 2012 at 5:21 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-15 12:27:16 AM

wademh: thecpt: wademh: thecpt: wademh: thecpt: wademh: thecpt:
No, there isn't a logical break in there. Read it again. Find the thread. It isn't that hard.

(a)Stating what is, (b) is not stating what ought to be.
(a)Describing reality (b) is not advocating for that reality.
(a)The strong may tend to dominate the weak but (b) that doesn't mean we need to encourage to even tolerate that.

thats not my problem with it. Strong in what sense? Dominating in what sense? Thats the problem. Yes they are the same shape in logical statements and thats fine, my problem is what you are trying to associate as strengths. Kind of like virtuous morals in philosophy, what one describes as strength might be what the other describes as weakness.

You claimed there was a logical break between the first two and the third. Now you are back to asserting ambiguity. The link in logical flow is the contextual guide to th ...

the break I was getting at is that there was no transference of meaning from the first two sentences to the strength and weaknesses portion in the third. That was the meaning I was looking for. And survival of the fittest still doesn't cut it. In your case you probably think that being naturally gifted is the strength whereas I believe that independent hard work is the strength. See how animals survive and are the fittest with both of those? I'm trying to figure out which one you meant.

/also quit trying to pretend your above everyone. I don't mean that as a cut, but if you talk like this with friends then you probably don't have many.

You take the long way home. And even with your unnecessarily specific interpretation(s) of strength and weakness, you leap back into the notion of advocacy despite the context. You're a hard worker all right, but you're working hard at inventing a problem where there doesn't have to be one. And I'm not pretending anything, nor claiming to be __above__ anyone. I never claimed to be the master of logic. Talking about logic was about the words written and being read, not about me. There's no need for you to make it about me.


You claimed you had verbal skills. That's where you made it about you. And the problem started at the very beginning. That's not the long way, that was you going off on a tangent about how great you supposedly are at logical arguments. You're just great at ignoring how poor your communication skills are. I found the point was seeing what you meant as strength. Can you get to that?
 
2012-05-15 12:36:30 AM

Aloy: Donnchadha: jehovahs witness protection: YOU MEAN THAT POOR PROFESSOR BUSTING HIS ASS FOR A MERE $2 MILLION A YEAR MIGHT NOT GET A RAISE?

Hahaha!! Oh, wow!!

Oh, thank you. I needed that laugh. $2 million? That's great. Funny stuff.

This. I happened to stumble onto how much two of my favorite professors make - they're at a community college, both have PhD's, and are the front line for a wide variety of students to obtain further education and a future...and they make 34k a year.

WTF.


WTF indeed. The clothing buyer at the Colorado State University bookstore makes $60K a year and the bookstore manager at Kennesaw (GA) State made $90K. That doesn't include the non-salaried perks, such as vacation. Before this goes into a college bookstore ripping off threadjack, there are plenty of staff on many campuses that make a hell of a lot more than $34K/year. It sounds to me like these favorite professors are in jobs they must love, because they are surely not doing it for the money. If they work 40 hour weeks they are paid $16/hour. I take it their PhDs (why do people put an apostrophe on things like this? Or CDs? Are they possessive or plural?) are not in economics or personal finance.
 
2012-05-15 12:39:31 AM

thecpt: You claimed you had verbal skills. That's where you made it about you. And the problem started at the very beginning. That's not the long way, that was you going off on a tangent about how great you supposedly are at logical arguments. You're just great at ignoring how poor your communication skills are. I found the point was seeing what you meant as strength. Can you get to that?


I didn't open up a claim about having verbal skills. Perhaps you've confused me with someone else. Somebody else complimented by language skills and all I said was they came after analytical skills. I never claimed I was great at logical arguments. I did claim some things are a simple matter of logic. Hopefully you'll observe the distinction. And while communication is a two way street, that doesn't mean one person can screw it up by themselves. The more you explain how you interpreted some rather straight-forward words, the less responsibility I feel for any miscommunication. For in the end, even with your especially idiosyncratic specific interpretation of strength, there's no legitimate way for you to claim, as you did, that I was advocating against anybody working hard. It's just a deep pile of illogical additions on your part. I can't be responsible for faults in communication that are due to your adding multiple things I didn't write.
 
2012-05-15 12:40:07 AM

unlikely: umad: unlikely: Maybe stop throwing good money after bad into the football program?

Football programs bring in enough to not only pay for themselves, but to also pay for all of the women's sports that don't make any money.

Can't tell if serious.

a) What does funding ANY of that have to do with academics
b) You can't just assert that without backing it. Citation needed. Show us a few examples of universities actually making money from football and using it somewhere besides football.


http://businessofcollegesports.com/2011/06/01/how-profitable-is-ohio- s tate-university-athletics-department/

OSU football turned a 32 million dollar profit. Read the last paragraph, OSU atheletics sent 25 percent of its 109M in revenue to other departments of the school last year.

Citation provided.
/ where is YOUR citation now?
 
2012-05-15 12:46:37 AM

I sound fat: unlikely: umad: unlikely: Maybe stop throwing good money after bad into the football program?

Football programs bring in enough to not only pay for themselves, but to also pay for all of the women's sports that don't make any money.

Can't tell if serious.

a) What does funding ANY of that have to do with academics
b) You can't just assert that without backing it. Citation needed. Show us a few examples of universities actually making money from football and using it somewhere besides football.

http://businessofcollegesports.com/2011/06/01/how-profitable-is-ohio- s tate-university-athletics-department/

OSU football turned a 32 million dollar profit. Read the last paragraph, OSU atheletics sent 25 percent of its 109M in revenue to other departments of the school last year.

Citation provided.
/ where is YOUR citation now?


Ohio State is a very big exception to the rule.

/Go Bucks!
 
2012-05-15 01:02:57 AM

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Xcott: that was my nickname in highschool: When I applied to my grad school, they advertised $26k/yr for tuition and fees. I paid a little more than that the first year, but then they upped tuition to $39k/yr for my second and third years.

Every year when the alumni folks call, I kindly remind them that I prepaid my $1k/yr contributions through 2030, and that if I am still practicing in the field of my degree at that time then I will be happy to start donating again.

/$2k/month for 25 years

$2k/month for 25 years is $600,000. Did they accidentally bill you for 15 years of school?

I am on a mobile phone. What's the interest on $160,000 at 6.8% compounded daily with $2k/month payments over 30 years?

I wouldn't be surprised if it came out to half a million.

My girlfriend's in a similar situation, except with federal loans. Basically she can never make more than $10k/year until she turns 65 (any more and it gets garnished) and she will owe close to a million dollars by the time she hits the average life expectancy age.

Talk about hopeless.


What the hell did you two major in? Throwing money in a hole?
 
2012-05-15 01:16:08 AM

gimmegimme: I sound fat: unlikely: umad: unlikely: Maybe stop throwing good money after bad into the football program?

Football programs bring in enough to not only pay for themselves, but to also pay for all of the women's sports that don't make any money.

Can't tell if serious.

a) What does funding ANY of that have to do with academics
b) You can't just assert that without backing it. Citation needed. Show us a few examples of universities actually making money from football and using it somewhere besides football.

http://businessofcollegesports.com/2011/06/01/how-profitable-is-ohio- s tate-university-athletics-department/

OSU football turned a 32 million dollar profit. Read the last paragraph, OSU atheletics sent 25 percent of its 109M in revenue to other departments of the school last year.

Citation provided.
/ where is YOUR citation now?

Ohio State is a very big exception to the rule.

/Go Bucks!


Well, it is the school being attacked for spending on football here. However, it doesent appear to be that big of an exception. Illinois, 10th in the big ten in football revenue returned money to the school as well, and thats just the second school I looked at. Im thinking that means that MOST big programs do.
 
2012-05-15 01:27:33 AM

BigLuca: Donnchadha: BigLuca: Andromeda: Donnchadha: jehovahs witness protection: YOU MEAN THAT POOR PROFESSOR BUSTING HIS ASS FOR A MERE $2 MILLION A YEAR MIGHT NOT GET A RAISE?

Hahaha!! Oh, wow!!

Oh, thank you. I needed that laugh. $2 million? That's great. Funny stuff.

My reaction exactly. What profs make $2 million a year? Cause I totally want to switch to that field from mine!

guys? I'm pretty sure s/he was kidding

[i3.kym-cdn.com image 273x200]

Oh, ok. Usually when someone writes four sentences on one line regarding the hilarity of a statement it is either butthurt or sarcasm. I guess you just really, really, really, REALLY thought it was funny, and wanted everyone to know. My mistake.


Actually, this being JWP, he was probably completely serious. Poe's Law at work.
 
2012-05-15 01:43:35 AM

I sound fat: gimmegimme: I sound fat: unlikely: umad: unlikely: Maybe stop throwing good money after bad into the football program?

Football programs bring in enough to not only pay for themselves, but to also pay for all of the women's sports that don't make any money.

Can't tell if serious.

a) What does funding ANY of that have to do with academics
b) You can't just assert that without backing it. Citation needed. Show us a few examples of universities actually making money from football and using it somewhere besides football.

http://businessofcollegesports.com/2011/06/01/how-profitable-is-ohio- s tate-university-athletics-department/

OSU football turned a 32 million dollar profit. Read the last paragraph, OSU atheletics sent 25 percent of its 109M in revenue to other departments of the school last year.

Citation provided.
/ where is YOUR citation now?

Ohio State is a very big exception to the rule.

/Go Bucks!

Well, it is the school being attacked for spending on football here. However, it doesent appear to be that big of an exception. Illinois, 10th in the big ten in football revenue returned money to the school as well, and thats just the second school I looked at. Im thinking that means that MOST big programs do.


How many exceptions are there? The point is that there are hundreds of college athletics programs and a significant portion of them--if not most--are a money pit.

This is one of the reasons that Ohio State always hosts the first game on their schedule against the East Bumfark Buttwipers from the Middleofnowhere Conference. The Buttwipers get a big, fat check. Ohio State gets a cupcake.
 
2012-05-15 01:58:35 AM

Xcott: Traditional PhD programs, that admit students with the customary tuition waiver and stipend, are as selective as ever, since they are obviously limited by the number of available funding lines (and this certainly doesn't go up in a down economy.)

However, many students do not know what is "traditional" or "customary," and in recent years a lot of them have handed over their own money to go to grad school. Universities are happy to admit students who pay their own way, and even expand their programs or invent entirely new ones to accept more of them.

This is apparently changing societal expectations of Ph.D. programs. I advise undergraduates that they're never supposed to pay to be a Ph.D. student, that this is like paying to be a monk. This is standard and common sense advice. However, if I say this online, I often incur a volley of hostile responses from a bunch of people who supposedly "know" better and tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about.


Yeah. I asked my brother the PhD engineer about grad school. He said if you belong in grad school for engineering it will pay for itself. I asked other brother the MS educator about grad school. He said if you bring your own money, any school will admit you. They're both right, and I did both. My part time employer offered $4500 per year for tuition, and that covered it all. (NMSU is dirt cheap.) I also had a teaching assistantship that didn't require much time in class.

I was speaking with the head of the physics department earlier this Spring, and I could walk on with an almost guaranteed assistantship, but it would take 6 years (including remedial coursework and post-doc) which I don't care to spend. Unfortunately, the current engineering department faculty is either useless or geriatric, so I may need to find a more expensive place for a doctorate.
 
2012-05-15 04:48:37 AM

Why Would I Read the Article: At least in the UC system, there is roughly 1 administrator for every three students, which is a ridiculously high ratio. And something like 85% of all regents made more than 200k for the 2008 year, also a ridiculously high figure.

I believe, more than anything else, that this "grease the wheels" pay system is the single biggest reason for skyrocketing college costs. Sleazy administrators would do a 65k/year job, but get paid more than 200k for it. Obviously demand for college as well as student loans play a significant role, too, but once college administrators learned that they could dip their hands in public coffers via the university racket, there was never any possible outcome except the one we are living.

Clark Kerr is spinning in his grave. His vision is what California education the best in the world in the 60s, and today we're basically Mississippi Junior. Shame on every single person responsible for sending our education system into the toilet.


It's always nice to have a nearly unlimited well for political patronage for decades, but once that well dries up, the last round in the musical chairs is going to find out that life can get very hard in a hurry. Not that we'll miss any of them.
 
2012-05-15 05:02:01 AM

vice_magnet: Aloy: Donnchadha: jehovahs witness protection: YOU MEAN THAT POOR PROFESSOR BUSTING HIS ASS FOR A MERE $2 MILLION A YEAR MIGHT NOT GET A RAISE?

Hahaha!! Oh, wow!!

Oh, thank you. I needed that laugh. $2 million? That's great. Funny stuff.

This. I happened to stumble onto how much two of my favorite professors make - they're at a community college, both have PhD's, and are the front line for a wide variety of students to obtain further education and a future...and they make 34k a year.

WTF.

WTF indeed. The clothing buyer at the Colorado State University bookstore makes $60K a year and the bookstore manager at Kennesaw (GA) State made $90K. That doesn't include the non-salaried perks, such as vacation. Before this goes into a college bookstore ripping off threadjack, there are plenty of staff on many campuses that make a hell of a lot more than $34K/year. It sounds to me like these favorite professors are in jobs they must love, because they are surely not doing it for the money. If they work 40 hour weeks they are paid $16/hour. I take it their PhDs (why do people put an apostrophe on things like this? Or CDs? Are they possessive or plural?) are not in economics or personal finance.


Funny, I'm staff, and I make 27k a year. Before taxes.
 
2012-05-15 05:12:08 AM

taurusowner: netizencain: It'll never happen. As long as the government is willing to continue to loan money to anyone, schools will just keep raising tuition. It's the circle of life.

This. As is with absolutely anything, you put out a bag of money marked "only for those who need it", and all of a sudden you're gonna have a lot more people "needing" it.


they're not all the same though. there's for-profit places that are doing essentially what you're describing. There's also state universities that have raised tuition because their budgets are tight and they can't fund the university as much.

the former offers little value, the latter has real degrees for real jobs and can still offer great value despite the increases. if they're going to reform this system, they're going to have to start differentiating diploma mills from actual universities and stop lending to students who are going to diploma mills. their return on investment there will always be negative.
 
2012-05-15 06:04:18 AM

Endive Wombat: I gotta say, I also blame the employers here. I use next to nothing of what I learned in college in my day to day at work. I know people who are specialized do, but that is not what/who I am talking about here. But, I blame the employers due to the ever stricter hiring standards for entry level positions. A Jr. Inside Sales Rep does not need a minimum of a 4 year degree with high marks, extra circulars, etc.


Curricular?
 
2012-05-15 06:19:01 AM

wademh: JaaVaa: gimmegimme: wademh: rubi_con_man:
You are so wrong. You can ABSOLUTELY compare the top 10% of both schools.

The absentees don't get grades in the top 10%. In fact, the top 10% in any institution has one feature in common : They work hard. They push themselves. They overcome whatever BS is in their life. Yeah, there is a lot of luck there, but they're not the ones with behavior issues. The top 10% are the people that have earned the right to go to school. Put them in an aggressive college and they'll do fine.

Like a couple of my friends who were also in the top few %, we didn't work at all, it was too easy and we were bored to tears. Lots of drinking and lots of drugs made up for the boredom. But don't let reality get in the way of your story.

College is as difficult as you want it to be. It looks like you didn't want to push yourself very hard...

Pity.

He's clearly somewhere in the spectrum of 'English/Philosophy/Arts/Journalism/Communications' major and 'shiatty public school.'

It would literally be impossible to get through most science majors without any extensive effort, as most of them require a formidable amount of memorization and reasoning skills far beyond that of general knowledge.

It's like trying to assemble an Analytical-Chemistry-worthy titration curve without significant knowledge of complex equilibria, environmental competency and solute interactions, it's just not possible.

A University of California School child, BS in Biochemistry. I'm sorry you found school so hard. I found it to be terribly easy, much easier than real world research, raising a family and paying a mortgage.


93 graduate and you got that right life is much harder than school ever was
 
2012-05-15 07:50:37 AM
When I hear people, including politicians of all stripes, complain about the rising costs of higher education and the spendthrift ways of university administrators I can't help but wonder if economics is still taught these days. Higher education is like other services, subject to the laws of supply and demand. If a university is too expensive, students will attend an alternative that they believe has higher value. That's the beauty of the free market, and there are thousands of schools to choose from. Universities are providing what students demand, and the students have shown they're willing to pay for it. If it were otherwise, the schools would be out of business.

I wish my car weren't so expensive, and it would probably cost less if the auto executives, engineers, assembly workers, dealers, sales people, and marketing folk didn't get the salaries that they get or if the car didn't have all kinds of extras and conveniences.

That's the beauty of free markets. Suppliers meet demand, adapt to demands, or fail.
 
2012-05-15 08:09:26 AM

wademh: thecpt:
I didn't open up a claim about having verbal skills. Perhaps you've confused me with someone else. Somebody else complimented by language skills and all I said was they came after analytical skills. I never claimed I was great at logical arguments. I did claim some things are a simple matter of logic. Hopefully you'll observe the distinction. And while communication is a two way street, that doesn't mean one person can screw it up by themselves. The more you explain how you interpreted some rather straight-forward words, the less responsibility I feel for any miscommunication. For in the end, even with your especially idiosyncratic specific interpretation of strength, there's no legitimate way for you to claim, as you did, that I was advocating against anybody working hard. It's just a deep pile of illogical additions on your part. I can't be responsible for faults in communication that are due to your adding multiple things I didn't write.


"Verbal skills came later" Yeah you didn't open up that way but its there. And you're right about it being a two way street, but I thought we figured out where we weren't on the same page. What I thought you were saying was strength was in things in school coming naturally, therefore weakness (being hardworkers who aren't naturally gifted) are dominated by those who find school "easy." Those were the dots I connected from your previous posts. Those don't seem illogical.
 
2012-05-15 08:18:56 AM

mtheadedfool: When I hear people, including politicians of all stripes, complain about the rising costs of higher education and the spendthrift ways of university administrators I can't help but wonder if economics is still taught these days. Higher education is like other services, subject to the laws of supply and demand. If a university is too expensive, students will attend an alternative that they believe has higher value. That's the beauty of the free market, and there are thousands of schools to choose from. Universities are providing what students demand, and the students have shown they're willing to pay for it. If it were otherwise, the schools would be out of business.

I wish my car weren't so expensive, and it would probably cost less if the auto executives, engineers, assembly workers, dealers, sales people, and marketing folk didn't get the salaries that they get or if the car didn't have all kinds of extras and conveniences.

That's the beauty of free markets. Suppliers meet demand, adapt to demands, or fail.


Note the complaints of employers requiring bachelor degrees to do entry level jobs any high school graduate could do.

Income broken down by degree earned

So much for the 2 million dollar professor.

The job market is too competitive with a manufacturing and trade base that is too small to support a middle and lower class in a country of 313 million people. Higher education has become a necessity to making a living wage. Because they have that captive market, colleges and universities can mismanage all they want.

For instance at my university, the word just came down that after freezing raises for five years and massive staffing and faculty cuts, they were not going to take the 14 million they needed to find out of the sink hole our athletic department is (the administration wants so desperately to be a conference team, but we suck) or the unnecessary level of associate deans. They were going to take it out of more staffing and faculty cuts. No reorganization, no cutting away the fat. They will take it out of the boots on the ground who help students learn.

Let me ask you something: Did you, or anyone here, ever ask what an academic department's budget was, and where that money of the university went, before you went to that school?
 
2012-05-15 08:32:10 AM
This article from 2005 explains quite well the problems with college spending - it is wasted on pseudo-education and politically-motivated pursuits that undermine the education of students:

Sidney R. Knafel (Harvard AB '52, MBA '54), is a prime example of misguided philanthropy. Chairman of Insight Communications, the nation's ninth-largest cable company, with a market value of some $2.1 billion, Knafel has recently forked over a juicy $1.5 million to the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study, a font of feminist grievance and left-wing posturing.

The Radcliffe Institute supports some of the silliest academic orthodoxies around-a belief that knowledge, gender, and race are "socially constructed" rather than based on any reality, a fascination with homosexuality, and an obsession with endemic American sexism and racism. At the end of this past academic year, the institute brought two prominent feminist journalists to lecture on campus. Susan Faludi-whose 1991 bestseller, Backlash, argued that the "patriarchy" was trying to re-enslave women-claimed preposterously to her Radcliffe audience that 9/11 had triggered yet another "backlash against feminism." Barbara Ehrenreich, who lectured on "Weird Science: Challenging Sexist Ideology since the 1970s," is a fierce critic of the economic system that made donor Knafel a megamillionaire. American capitalism, in her eyes, is a racket whereby the privileged perpetually exploit the underprivileged.

Faludi and Ehrenreich might form one side of an interesting debate about women's equality, but the Radcliffe Institute shows no inclination to invite speakers who would argue the other side: not only that American women are the freest in history, but that they are free, period, thanks to the Western tradition of individual rights.
 
2012-05-15 08:45:44 AM

SlothB77: This article from 2005 explains quite well the problems with college spending - it is wasted on pseudo-education and politically-motivated pursuits that undermine the education of students:

Sidney R. Knafel (Harvard AB '52, MBA '54), is a prime example of misguided philanthropy. Chairman of Insight Communications, the nation's ninth-largest cable company, with a market value of some $2.1 billion, Knafel has recently forked over a juicy $1.5 million to the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study, a font of feminist grievance and left-wing posturing.

The Radcliffe Institute supports some of the silliest academic orthodoxies around-a belief that knowledge, gender, and race are "socially constructed" rather than based on any reality, a fascination with homosexuality, and an obsession with endemic American sexism and racism. At the end of this past academic year, the institute brought two prominent feminist journalists to lecture on campus. Susan Faludi-whose 1991 bestseller, Backlash, argued that the "patriarchy" was trying to re-enslave women-claimed preposterously to her Radcliffe audience that 9/11 had triggered yet another "backlash against feminism." Barbara Ehrenreich, who lectured on "Weird Science: Challenging Sexist Ideology since the 1970s," is a fierce critic of the economic system that made donor Knafel a megamillionaire. American capitalism, in her eyes, is a racket whereby the privileged perpetually exploit the underprivileged.

Faludi and Ehrenreich might form one side of an interesting debate about women's equality, but the Radcliffe Institute shows no inclination to invite speakers who would argue the other side: not only that American women are the freest in history, but that they are free, period, thanks to the Western tradition of individual rights.


Speakers are a pittance in a department's (it is usually the departments that invite speakers, not the University) budget compared the waste that goes on in athletics and upper administration.
 
2012-05-15 08:47:23 AM
KiplingKat872:
Let me ask you something: Did you, or anyone here, ever ask what an academic department's budget was, and where that money of the university went, before you went to that school?

Yes, but it was a private college so this may not apply. Our athletics was heavily donor driven as was our Engineering department. Most of the equipment had someone's name on it a donor for both academics and athletics, I'm talking about the cool stuff too. Everything from mini F1 cars for the mechEs to High powered lasers for the CivEs. We could research everything cost wise before enrollment except operational costs for the buildings. I was also given a letter from the donors of my scholarship each semester, and I could write them back and thank them.

I paid for an educational service and could not do my job without it. If one assumes that highschoolers could do my job without earning a degree then that person should prove everybody wrong and try it. See how far you get on cheaper salary costs without well educated people. Highschool seemed intentionally easy.
 
2012-05-15 08:55:16 AM

thecpt: I paid for an educational service and could not do my job without it. If one assumes that highschoolers could do my job without earning a degree then that person should prove everybody wrong and try it. See how far you get on cheaper salary costs without well educated people. Highschool seemed intentionally easy.


I agree wholeheartedly, but as pointed out above now employers are asking for a bachelors degree in business for someone to be a salesman.

Our chemistry department has had to get a lot of cooperate donors as well since our state funds keep getting slashed. Fortunately where we are, there are a lot of companies who hire our graduates so they have a vested interest in our program.

But most people don't ask. They look at the statistics, visit the campus, maybe speak to the faculty, but they never ask with the department operating budget is compared to the University's or College's over-all budget. In the STEM disciplines, where a lot of money is needed to supply and teach labs, this is a very important question.
 
2012-05-15 09:13:33 AM

KiplingKat872: thecpt:
I agree wholeheartedly, but as pointed out above now employers are asking for a bachelors degree in business for someone to be a salesman.

Our chemistry department has had to get a lot of cooperate donors as well since our state funds keep getting slashed. Fortunately where we are, there are a lot of companies who hire our graduates so they have a vested interest in our program.

But most people don't ask. They look at the statistics, visit the campus, maybe speak to the faculty, but they never ask with the department operating budget is compared to the University's or College's over-all budget. In the STEM disciplines, where a lot of money is needed to supply and teach labs, this is a very important question.


I have definitely seen brilliant people attend a school without knowing any specifics. Some just look at the rank, others just didn't put in effort to find what would best suit them or didn't even know what that would be. When I was job hunting back when I graduated (only 2 years ago) I thought the salesmen positions were unique because they only list the amount of experience needed. The only ones I saw that needed a degree were in sales of complicated equipment, which required a physics degree to be able to talk openly with a professional who was buying it. Those made sense to me, but a business degree only makes sense if you're looking at sales management.

I haven't seen a corporation contribute for students, but I only went to an undergrad school
 
2012-05-15 09:15:34 AM
They should audit every school that takes student loans, the waste in higher ed is appalling
 
2012-05-15 09:30:07 AM

Joe Blowme: They should audit every school that takes student loans, the waste in higher ed is appalling


Well, every state school has to have its budget approved by a state legislature and/or a special council created by the legislature. And of course those systems aren't really the problem, private schools and especially predatory places like UPhoenix are the worst values for loan volume.
 
2012-05-15 10:00:23 AM

herrDrFarkenstein: Joe Blowme: They should audit every school that takes student loans, the waste in higher ed is appalling

Well, every state school has to have its budget approved by a state legislature and/or a special council created by the legislature. And of course those systems aren't really the problem, private schools and especially predatory places like UPhoenix are the worst values for loan volume.


Budget as a whole but not drilled down numbers. I see it first hand, spend it or lose it the next year. There is no incentive to reign in spending. They tout going green then waste power on water fountains in middle of ponds, spotlights, ect...
 
2012-05-15 10:10:27 AM

thecpt: I haven't seen a corporation contribute for students, but I only went to an undergrad school


One of our donors donates stipends to pay our majors who are seniors to teach the freshman chemistry labs. We would have to limit the number of students we could accept into Gen Chem I by a half if it wasn't for that. They also donate for lab supplies, equipment. We have a "Good Manufacturing Practices" class to teach students how to operate in a commercial lab and that is taught (guest lectured) by people working in local industry donating their time.

Like I said, they have a vested interest in our program.
 
2012-05-15 10:12:46 AM

Joe Blowme: Budget as a whole but not drilled down numbers. I see it first hand, spend it or lose it the next year. There is no incentive to reign in spending. They tout going green then waste power on water fountains in middle of ponds, spotlights, ect...


Agreed. The nights it is not in use, the stadium lights are kept on because the family of the guy who donated the stadium wants to see their dollars at work. How many thousands of dollars a year is that?
 
2012-05-15 11:08:18 AM

KiplingKat872: mtheadedfool: When I hear people, including politicians of all stripes, complain about the rising costs of higher education and the spendthrift ways of university administrators I can't help but wonder if economics is still taught these days. Higher education is like other services, subject to the laws of supply and demand. If a university is too expensive, students will attend an alternative that they believe has higher value. That's the beauty of the free market, and there are thousands of schools to choose from. Universities are providing what students demand, and the students have shown they're willing to pay for it. If it were otherwise, the schools would be out of business.

I wish my car weren't so expensive, and it would probably cost less if the auto executives, engineers, assembly workers, dealers, sales people, and marketing folk didn't get the salaries that they get or if the car didn't have all kinds of extras and conveniences.

That's the beauty of free markets. Suppliers meet demand, adapt to demands, or fail.

Note the complaints of employers requiring bachelor degrees to do entry level jobs any high school graduate could do.

Income broken down by degree earned

So much for the 2 million dollar professor.

The job market is too competitive with a manufacturing and trade base that is too small to support a middle and lower class in a country of 313 million people. Higher education has become a necessity to making a living wage. Because they have that captive market, colleges and universities can mismanage all they want.

For instance at my university, the word just came down that after freezing raises for five years and massive staffing and faculty cuts, they were not going to take the 14 million they needed to find out of the sink hole our athletic department is (the administration wants so desperately to be a conference team, but we suck) or the unnecessary level of associate deans. They were going to take it out of more staffing and faculty cuts. ...


No, because i had been offered a scholarship to the one school in my state with an engineering college.

I know a lot of Chem grads who are underemployed or not employed in their field of study/major. One would think in a state with a lot of agriculture (crops take a lot of fertilizer and anti-bug chemicals besides genetic manipulation) there would be some opportunity for them.

Sorry to hear you aren't paid as well as some of the secretaries in our athletic department at UNL. I believe the staff salaries at many colleges are out of line with similar positions in private enterprise in the same market. Also you need to factor in the other parts of the compensation package, not just take home pay. For example, what is your pension or 401(k) matching contribution? What are the milestones for vacation? Are you expected to put in at least 40 hours per week, or will that just result in treading water in your ambition to be promoted?
 
2012-05-15 11:28:36 AM

vice_magnet: No, because i had been offered a scholarship to the one school in my state with an engineering college.


Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Agriculture is not where the chemistry jobs are at. Pharmaceutical companies is where the the chemistry jobs are at.

I have blue cross insurance for myself. I take a payroll deduction for everything else. My pension is not super and it is about to be killed since they are moving the Universities out from under the state employee system to put us on yearly contract in order to lay us off. Milestones for vacation is the same as private sector: One day a month for five years and then it goes up incrementally. Ditto sick time. I do 40 hours and week and by law I am not allowed to work overtime (since the state does not want to pay it). Salaries have been frozen for the last three years and we have been told to not expect raises until 2014. Staff positions of people that have retired or left are not filled, they are just eliminated.

Yeah, tell me about fat cat public employees and how easy we have it.
 
2012-05-15 11:37:28 AM

KiplingKat872: vice_magnet: No, because i had been offered a scholarship to the one school in my state with an engineering college.

Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Agriculture is not where the chemistry jobs are at. Pharmaceutical companies is where the the chemistry jobs are at.


Except companies like astrazeneca have recently decided to offshore their chemistry positions to China.
Experienced PhD synthetic organic chemists are losing jobs. 10 years ago, they were a lost speciality, greater need than could be fulfilled. Now? Sorry, we'll hire 3 of you in China and eventually get the same job done. And the trend is increasing. It's getting really hard to predict where the trend will end.
 
2012-05-15 11:45:27 AM

KiplingKat872: vice_magnet: No, because i had been offered a scholarship to the one school in my state with an engineering college.

Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Agriculture is not where the chemistry jobs are at. Pharmaceutical companies is where the the chemistry jobs are at.

I have blue cross insurance for myself. I take a payroll deduction for everything else. My pension is not super and it is about to be killed since they are moving the Universities out from under the state employee system to put us on yearly contract in order to lay us off. Milestones for vacation is the same as private sector: One day a month for five years and then it goes up incrementally. Ditto sick time. I do 40 hours and week and by law I am not allowed to work overtime (since the state does not want to pay it). Salaries have been frozen for the last three years and we have been told to not expect raises until 2014. Staff positions of people that have retired or left are not filled, they are just eliminated.

Yeah, tell me about fat cat public employees and how easy we have it.

So what is your long term plan, because that sounds god awful? You obviously know your way around a lab. Do you just keep applying for what is available at Pharmaceuticals?

/assuming you're unsatisfied
 
2012-05-15 11:51:17 AM

thecpt: KiplingKat872: vice_magnet: No, because i had been offered a scholarship to the one school in my state with an engineering college.

Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Agriculture is not where the chemistry jobs are at. Pharmaceutical companies is where the the chemistry jobs are at.

I have blue cross insurance for myself. I take a payroll deduction for everything else. My pension is not super and it is about to be killed since they are moving the Universities out from under the state employee system to put us on yearly contract in order to lay us off. Milestones for vacation is the same as private sector: One day a month for five years and then it goes up incrementally. Ditto sick time. I do 40 hours and week and by law I am not allowed to work overtime (since the state does not want to pay it). Salaries have been frozen for the last three years and we have been told to not expect raises until 2014. Staff positions of people that have retired or left are not filled, they are just eliminated.

Yeah, tell me about fat cat public employees and how easy we have it.
So what is your long term plan, because that sounds god awful? You obviously know your way around a lab. Do you just keep applying for what is available at Pharmaceuticals?

/assuming you're unsatisfied


I'm staff, student services for the department. I schedule the classes and do the paperwork so faculty can keep researching and teaching.

My plans are nothing at the moment. Survive. The unemployment is at 9.7% here. I just thank god I'm employed.
 
2012-05-15 11:52:48 AM

thecpt: KiplingKat872: vice_magnet: No, because i had been offered a scholarship to the one school in my state with an engineering college.

Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Agriculture is not where the chemistry jobs are at. Pharmaceutical companies is where the the chemistry jobs are at.

I have blue cross insurance for myself. I take a payroll deduction for everything else. My pension is not super and it is about to be killed since they are moving the Universities out from under the state employee system to put us on yearly contract in order to lay us off. Milestones for vacation is the same as private sector: One day a month for five years and then it goes up incrementally. Ditto sick time. I do 40 hours and week and by law I am not allowed to work overtime (since the state does not want to pay it). Salaries have been frozen for the last three years and we have been told to not expect raises until 2014. Staff positions of people that have retired or left are not filled, they are just eliminated.

Yeah, tell me about fat cat public employees and how easy we have it.
So what is your long term plan, because that sounds god awful? You obviously know your way around a lab. Do you just keep applying for what is available at Pharmaceuticals?

/assuming you're unsatisfied


And actually I do like what I do. It's just the assumption that we're making bucket loads of money sitting on our duffs annoys the crap out of me.
 
2012-05-15 11:59:52 AM

wademh:

Except companies like astrazeneca have recently decided to offshore their chemistry positions to China.
Experienced PhD synthetic organic chemists are losing jobs. 10 years ago, they were a lost speciality, greater need than could be fulfilled. Now? Sorry, we'll hire 3 of you in China and eventually get the same job done. And the trend is increasing. It's getting really hard to predict where the trend will end.


Great. Why are people so set on destroying the American economy?
 
2012-05-15 12:20:08 PM

KiplingKat872:
I'm staff, student services for the department. I schedule the classes and do the paperwork so faculty can keep researching and teaching.

My plans are nothing at the moment. Survive. The unemployment is at 9.7% here. I just thank god I'm employed.


Oh, thought you were talking as someone from a lab. No, I don't think we're calling you a fat cat at all. Rather the top administration. I have friends who got their fist job out of school in our school's offices (usually for admissions), and they're on similar salary but our president made ungodly gobs of money for how small our school is. His yearly salary could pay for our entire admissions staff's salary. Seemed imbalanced.
 
2012-05-15 12:31:01 PM

thecpt: Oh, thought you were talking as someone from a lab.


Sorry for the misconception. I help keep the teaching labs going, if that helps.

I will agree that top/"executive" administration is a sink hole. We have an entire level of associate deans (we call them "dean lets") here that do nothing but gum up the works. No one even suggested that we get rid of them. Nope, they got rid of people that actually teach or facilitate teaching the students. We lost the teaching positions in the last year, and had to teach more students than have ever come through this department before.

And then they screamed at us becuase our tenured research faculty were not producing enough research and publications...because they were teaching a full load plus.
 
2012-05-15 01:14:54 PM

SlothB77: The Radcliffe Institute supports some of the silliest academic orthodoxies around-a belief that knowledge, gender, and race are "socially constructed" rather than based on any reality,


It's a "silly orthodoxy" that race is socially constructed?

When we decide that people with different skin color are a different race but people with different height are not a different race, that is an arbitrary social convention---there is no genetic reason why a skin phenotype is more fundamental than a height phenotype or an eye color phenotype.

Furthermore, separate populations often accrue stable phenotypic differences because of social behavior, e.g. taboos against inter-group marriage, or societal structures that keep societies from mixing.

a fascination with homosexuality, and an obsession with endemic American sexism and racism.

Ooooh, a "fascination" with homosexuality. How fanatical. But wait, isn't every academic guilty of a "fascination" and "obsession" with a specific academic subject area? Isn't that sort of the point of being a scholar?

These are the words people use when you focus on a topic that they think should be ignored for political reasons. If historians or sociologists study racism, it's an "obsession," because some people hate to be reminded that it is a real thing.

Faludi and Ehrenreich might form one side of an interesting debate about women's equality, but the Radcliffe Institute shows no inclination to invite speakers who would argue the other side: not only that American women are the freest in history, but that they are free, period, thanks to the Western tradition of individual rights.

Hah, right. And relativity might form one side of an interesting debate about whether science is fake, but physics departments show no inclination to invite Conservapedia's Andy Schlafly to argue the "other side."
 
2012-05-15 03:03:51 PM
I really wish my parents hadn't pushed so hard for me to get student loans and go to college. That whole thing really destroyed a lot of my trust in my parents' judgment.
 
2012-05-15 04:41:07 PM

Joe Blowme: herrDrFarkenstein: Joe Blowme: They should audit every school that takes student loans, the waste in higher ed is appalling

Well, every state school has to have its budget approved by a state legislature and/or a special council created by the legislature. And of course those systems aren't really the problem, private schools and especially predatory places like UPhoenix are the worst values for loan volume.

Budget as a whole but not drilled down numbers. I see it first hand, spend it or lose it the next year. There is no incentive to reign in spending. They tout going green then waste power on water fountains in middle of ponds, spotlights, ect...


Riiiiiiight... You really have no idea what you are talking about. Those budgets have to be justified at several levels.

Let me guess, you're the kind of guy who complains that somebody gets paid to fold the flag at sunset, and later complains that they spotlight the flag at night - but nobody better disrespect the flag, amirite?

You see it first hand, well I hope you're blowing the whistle. Enlighten us, please.
 
2012-05-15 04:44:07 PM

KiplingKat872: wademh:

Except companies like astrazeneca have recently decided to offshore their chemistry positions to China.
Experienced PhD synthetic organic chemists are losing jobs. 10 years ago, they were a lost speciality, greater need than could be fulfilled. Now? Sorry, we'll hire 3 of you in China and eventually get the same job done. And the trend is increasing. It's getting really hard to predict where the trend will end.

Great. Why are people so set on destroying the American economy?


We live in a global knowledge economy. Knowledge and information is a vital raw material. Look at how we treat oil, coal, trees, etc - natural resources - and you can start to understand what "human resources" really means.
 
2012-05-15 05:52:19 PM

herrDrFarkenstein: Let me guess, you're the kind of guy who complains that somebody gets paid to fold the flag at sunset, and later complains that they spotlight the flag at night - but nobody better disrespect the flag, amirite?


Well, he did say "reign in spending."
 
2012-05-15 06:04:51 PM

The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: I really wish my parents hadn't pushed so hard for me to get student loans and go to college. That whole thing really destroyed a lot of my trust in my parents' judgment.


Relax, you can keep blaming them for many years to come. That's how it works with arrested development where you don't take responsibility for yourself by the age of 16. Seems like such people never stop blaming their parents.
 
2012-05-15 06:39:22 PM

wademh: The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: I really wish my parents hadn't pushed so hard for me to get student loans and go to college. That whole thing really destroyed a lot of my trust in my parents' judgment.

Relax, you can keep blaming them for many years to come. That's how it works with arrested development where you don't take responsibility for yourself by the age of 16. Seems like such people never stop blaming their parents.


I think you missed the intentional sarcasm.

It's actually pretty sophisticated, because while you know it's snark, you can't tell which kind. Either it's, "Yeah, my parents were sooooo dumb by pushing me to get an education;" or, "Yeah my parents are sooooo dumb because of that one time they talked me into taking on all the debt to pay for my school."

I think it's the latter in response to the initial post in this thread, that seriously argues that school administrators are soooooo dumb because they ended up with a whole bunch of our money while we're left holding the bag.
 
2012-05-15 08:52:53 PM

jehovahs witness protection: YOU MEAN THAT POOR PROFESSOR BUSTING HIS ASS FOR A MERE $2 MILLION A YEAR MIGHT NOT GET A RAISE?


I wish. My wife's a full professor now, and is making about what I made in IT ten years ago. She just did some quick research and found a list: Nationwide in 2009, 36 university presidents made over $1 million. How many academic professors had university compensation over $1 million? Zero.
 
2012-05-15 09:09:33 PM

Endive Wombat: Curious what will happen when the job market becomes even more saturated with more and more college grads who cannot get a job. A good paying job with full benefits that was waiting for you the day you graduated college is an amazing lie that I am somewhat shocked lasted so damn long.

Wait, you mean paying for and borrowing over $100K at the age of 18 in order to get a job 4-5 years later that only pays $35K per year is not worth it?

I gotta say, I also blame the employers here. I use next to nothing of what I learned in college in my day to day at work. I know people who are specialized do, but that is not what/who I am talking about here. But, I blame the employers due to the ever stricter hiring standards for entry level positions. A Jr. Inside Sales Rep does not need a minimum of a 4 year degree with high marks, extra circulars, etc.


Yep, and 20 years from now, your Jr. Inside Sales Rep will need those skills again; after 50% are obsolete and 40% forgotten. I think it would make a lot more sense if our society was built for 30-hour workweeks with 10-hours a week of ongoing education, instead of 5000 hours of college then off to work...forever.
 
2012-05-15 10:44:04 PM

Beowoolfie: Yep, and 20 years from now, your Jr. Inside Sales Rep will need those skills again; after 50% are obsolete and 40% forgotten. I think it would make a lot more sense if our society was built for 30-hour workweeks with 10-hours a week of ongoing education, instead of 5000 hours of college then off to work...forever.


Don't forget the weekend keggers. Can't do the learnin' without them.
 
2012-05-16 01:56:22 AM

vice_magnet: I take it their PhDs (why do people put an apostrophe on things like this? Or CDs? Are they possessive or plural?) are not in economics or personal finance.


I've got to answer your question. Things like CD's an' PhD's have their apostrophes not 'cause they're possessive, but 'cause they're contractions. If you'll notice carefully, the two possessives I've used have no apostrophes.
 
2012-05-16 02:08:19 AM

Yoyo: vice_magnet: I take it their PhDs (why do people put an apostrophe on things like this? Or CDs? Are they possessive or plural?) are not in economics or personal finance.

I've got to answer your question. Things like CD's an' PhD's have their apostrophes not 'cause they're possessive, but 'cause they're contractions. If you'll notice carefully, the two possessives I've used have no apostrophes.


I would contend that they are acronyms, not contractions. The apostrophe in this case is acceptable in some places, but I agree with most style guides that it is undesirable because it violates the ordinary use of the apostrophe. An apostrophe indicates possession or replaces missing letters.

Compact Discs=CDs
Digital Versatile Discs=DVDs

When you include the apostrophe, you invite the reader to wonder, "DVD is what?" or "What belongs to the DVD?"
 
2012-05-16 09:58:37 AM

gimmegimme: Yoyo: vice_magnet: I take it their PhDs (why do people put an apostrophe on things like this? Or CDs? Are they possessive or plural?) are not in economics or personal finance.

I've got to answer your question. Things like CD's an' PhD's have their apostrophes not 'cause they're possessive, but 'cause they're contractions. If you'll notice carefully, the two possessives I've used have no apostrophes.

I would contend that they are acronyms, not contractions. The apostrophe in this case is acceptable in some places, but I agree with most style guides that it is undesirable because it violates the ordinary use of the apostrophe. An apostrophe indicates possession or replaces missing letters.

Compact Discs=CDs
Digital Versatile Discs=DVDs

When you include the apostrophe, you invite the reader to wonder, "DVD is what?" or "What belongs to the DVD?"


No reader I have ever known, and probably that anybody has ever known has felt invited to think that DVD's meant the writer was intending them to be possessive. That excuse is a cop-out.
 
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