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(Talking Points Memo)   NY Rep Peter King (R-eality impaired) claims that there is no racial profiling going on in New York. The fact that NYPD managed to stop and frisk more black people than there are living in NY is just a happy coincidence   (livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com ) divider line
    More: Asinine, racial profiling, stop and frisk, coincidences  
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1085 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 May 2012 at 12:28 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-14 10:17:06 AM  
Something something Stop & Frisk something.
 
2012-05-14 10:20:48 AM  
To be fair, he's in Long Island. The cops there frisk all minorities and New Englanders.
 
2012-05-14 10:21:40 AM  
well, clearly it's just a reflection of the fact that there are far more black people in NY than white.

wait, i'm being told that this is in fact not true.
 
2012-05-14 10:24:35 AM  
because only black people do bad things.

/kidding.
 
2012-05-14 10:28:59 AM  
www.yesmagazine.org
 
2012-05-14 10:44:21 AM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: [www.yesmagazine.org image 500x314]


critteristic.com
 
2012-05-14 10:47:08 AM  

FlashHarry: well, clearly it's just a reflection of the fact that there are far more black people in NY than white.

wait, i'm being told that this is in fact not true.


Even in neighborhoods that are predominantly white, blacks and hispanics get stopped and frisked more.

Also, the stop and frisk (i.e. the Terry stop) is only a patdown search for possible weapons where the cops have a reasonable and articulateable suspicion that the person being searched is "armed and dangerous." It's not meant to be used to arrest people for drug offenses. The NYPD, though, got around this for years by patting down people and then taking the drugs they found out (or making the detainee take it out) and then arresting them for displaying drug paraphernalia in public. It is all sorts of FUBAR.

Even though Ray Kelley, the Police Commissioner wrote a memo forbidding the practice, it's still going on in NYC today.
 
2012-05-14 10:47:26 AM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: [www.yesmagazine.org image 500x314]


That chart shows drug users. Find a chart that shows drug sellers since that's what most drug related prisoners are in prison for.
 
2012-05-14 10:49:41 AM  

CruiserTwelve: Dusk-You-n-Me: [www.yesmagazine.org image 500x314]

That chart shows drug users. Find a chart that shows drug sellers since that's what most drug related prisoners are in prison for.


I can guess the color that most populates this building:

www.topnews.in

/I know, not what you meant, but relevant considering the harm these drugs often do vs what's sold on the street.
 
2012-05-14 10:52:54 AM  

CruiserTwelve: drug sellers since that's what most drug related prisoners are in prison for.


ahhhhh hahahahahahahaah
 
2012-05-14 10:58:30 AM  

CruiserTwelve: Dusk-You-n-Me: [www.yesmagazine.org image 500x314]

That chart shows drug users. Find a chart that shows drug sellers since that's what most drug related prisoners are in prison for.


file.walagata.com
 
2012-05-14 11:10:41 AM  
Oh, my Congressman. Sometimes I have trouble understanding how he keeps such a strong hold on his seat, to the degree that the Democrats barely try. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely more conservative than liberal, but more on fiscal issues. I don't run into many people who seem as extreme on social issues as King.

Maybe it's just who I hang out with.
 
2012-05-14 11:14:47 AM  
 
2012-05-14 11:15:47 AM  

CruiserTwelve: That chart shows drug users. Find a chart that shows drug sellers since that's what most drug related prisoners are in prison for.


Even if that is factually true, I don't think you're making the point that you think you're making.
 
2012-05-14 11:28:21 AM  

Codenamechaz: CruiserTwelve: Dusk-You-n-Me: [www.yesmagazine.org image 500x314]

That chart shows drug users. Find a chart that shows drug sellers since that's what most drug related prisoners are in prison for.

[file.walagata.com image 363x310]


Now go back and tell me what it takes to actually be brought up on trafficking charges. It's one of those easy up-charges that police can throw at just about any user, and it looks great on reports, much like the one you've brought up.
 
2012-05-14 11:32:57 AM  

Endrick: Now go back and tell me what it takes to actually be brought up on trafficking charges. It's one of those easy up-charges that police can throw at just about any user, and it looks great on reports, much like the one you've brought up.


Ahhh, I see. You refute facts with conjecture.
 
2012-05-14 11:34:09 AM  

CruiserTwelve: According to Bureau of Justice Statistics (1995), although almost three-quarters of drug-related arrests are
for possession rather than trafficking, two-thirds of drug-related convictions are for trafficking. A higher fraction
of those charged with trafficking are sentenced to jail or prison, and mean maximum sentences of traffickers are
three times longer. Thus, as of 1993, our calculations suggest that 86% of all drug-related time incarcerated was
on trafficking charges.


According to the FBI circa 2007 Around 82% of arrests for drug offenses were made for possession, as opposed to 18% for sale and manufacture

Haven't been able to find any recent numbers, but I imagine we'll find a similar trend.
 
2012-05-14 12:35:36 PM  

RexTalionis: FlashHarry: well, clearly it's just a reflection of the fact that there are far more black people in NY than white.

wait, i'm being told that this is in fact not true.

Even in neighborhoods that are predominantly white, blacks and hispanics get stopped and frisked more.

Also, the stop and frisk (i.e. the Terry stop) is only a patdown search for possible weapons where the cops have a reasonable and articulateable suspicion that the person being searched is "armed and dangerous." It's not meant to be used to arrest people for drug offenses. The NYPD, though, got around this for years by patting down people and then taking the drugs they found out (or making the detainee take it out) and then arresting them for displaying drug paraphernalia in public. It is all sorts of FUBAR.

Even though Ray Kelley, the Police Commissioner wrote a memo forbidding the practice, it's still going on in NYC today.


There is a lawsuit right now about this very problem. It will be very interesting to see how it all pans out..
 
2012-05-14 12:36:47 PM  
Obviously more black people commit crimes. Why do you think there are so many in jail? Clearly they should be profiled.
 
2012-05-14 12:38:56 PM  
S'alright this is the same idiot who held hearings about whether Muslims would be more likely to support Muslim terrorist ogranizations because of their religious ties and then got indignant when people brought up the (completely irrlevant in his mind) fact that he used to raise money for the IRA
 
2012-05-14 12:40:13 PM  
I would expect nothing less in a city run by an authoritarian asshat like Mike Bloomberg. Sure he says he's for gay marriage, but he turns around and accepts an award from the government of Singapore, a government that arrests and imprisons gays simply for being gay. Simply put, Mike Bloomberg loves him a police state, and has even referred to the NYPD as his "private army." To make matters worse, a majority of New Yorkers (according to a Quinnipac poll) approve of both the NYPD and Ray Kelley.

As for Peter King, he needs to STFU and just send his next check to the IRA.
 
2012-05-14 12:42:41 PM  

Magorn: S'alright this is the same idiot who held hearings about whether Muslims would be more likely to support Muslim terrorist ogranizations because of their religious ties and then got indignant when people brought up the (completely irrlevant in his mind) fact that he used to raise money for the IRA


one man's terrorist...
 
2012-05-14 12:43:01 PM  
Peter King's argument: NYPD doesn't racially profile.

My counter-argument: Amadou Diallo, Abner Louima, Sean Bell, etc.
 
2012-05-14 12:45:05 PM  

CruiserTwelve: Dusk-You-n-Me: [www.yesmagazine.org image 500x314]

That chart shows drug users. Find a chart that shows drug sellers since that's what most drug related prisoners are in prison for.


OK, let's find the chart of drug sellers. If they happen to be predominately minority, does it still change the fact that no one ever forced anyone to go see the dope man? Drug dealers aren't forcing anyone to do anything.
 
2012-05-14 12:45:24 PM  

CruiserTwelve: Dusk-You-n-Me: [www.yesmagazine.org image 500x314]

That chart shows drug users. Find a chart that shows drug sellers since that's what most drug related prisoners are in prison for.


The funniest part is that you probably actually believe that.
 
2012-05-14 12:46:28 PM  

CruiserTwelve: Endrick: Now go back and tell me what it takes to actually be brought up on trafficking charges. It's one of those easy up-charges that police can throw at just about any user, and it looks great on reports, much like the one you've brought up.

Ahhh, I see. You refute facts with conjecture.


Are you defending the abuse of the stop-and-frisk law, or are you just defending cops in general?
 
2012-05-14 12:55:38 PM  

RexTalionis: Even in neighborhoods that are predominantly white, blacks and hispanics get stopped and frisked more.


You realize that alone isn't proof of racial profiling, right?

It doesn't look good and points to racial profiling but you need mroe than that to prove that is what is going on.
 
2012-05-14 12:55:59 PM  

CruiserTwelve: Dusk-You-n-Me: [www.yesmagazine.org image 500x314]

That chart shows drug users. Find a chart that shows drug sellers since that's what most drug related prisoners are in prison for.


You may be technically correct. I' would guess most people in prison on drug crimes are in there because the law labels them "drug dealers" since they got caught with the artificially low amount that triggers a bs "intent to distribute" charge.

Have an ounce of dirt weed for a weekend camping trip and you get pulled over, bam you're going to jail because you're a "drug dealer". The cops and the DA get to jerk off over throwing a "drug dealer" in jail, but the world is no better of a place.
 
2012-05-14 12:56:47 PM  
I say this in every similar thread, but as a white guy who spends a lot of time driving around and through black neighborhoods in NYC since I'm a pizza guy, I get pulled over and searched a lot. Waaaaaay more than my non-white coworkers, 12 times in 2011 alone. Always undercover cops, never marked cars. Been arrested once from a random search one time when I wasn't working but didn't have to go through booking cuz it was just ash in a bowl for christsakes. People of all races get profiled in NYC for being in the "wrong areas," with the exception that black people get stopped everywhere.

And Peter King... you don't live in the city, or in even in the county that borders the city, so STFU and EABOD.
 
2012-05-14 12:57:46 PM  
CruiserTwelve: Endrick:
Now go back and tell me what it takes to actually be brought up on trafficking charges. It's one of those easy up-
charges that police can throw at just about any user, and it looks great on reports, much like the one you've brought up.

`
Ahhh, I see. You refute facts with conjecture.
`
Are you defending the abuse of the stop-and-
frisk law, or are you just defending cops ....
(usual anti-cop BS)
`
C12 - the info you gave is nearly 20 years old. The 2007 data is more relevant. Also what was your original point? - before all the herpderp showed up.
 
2012-05-14 12:58:40 PM  

IHadMeAVision: I say this in every similar thread, but as a white guy who spends a lot of time driving around and through black neighborhoods in NYC since I'm a pizza guy, I get pulled over and searched a lot. Waaaaaay more than my non-white coworkers, 12 times in 2011 alone. Always undercover cops, never marked cars. Been arrested once from a random search one time when I wasn't working but didn't have to go through booking cuz it was just ash in a bowl for christsakes. People of all races get profiled in NYC for being in the "wrong areas," with the exception that black people get stopped everywhere.

And Peter King... you don't live in the city, or in even in the county that borders the city, so STFU and EABOD.


hehe the pot smoking pizza delivery guy... I love when stereotypes comes true :)
 
2012-05-14 01:11:55 PM  
Dusk-You-n-Me

I know this will sound defensive, but I cock an eyebrow at a study that suggests that any group, much less whites, use drugs at an astounding rate of 3 or 4 times higher than other groups. Illegal drug use is more or less even across the racial board. I would expect if anything, whites are more likely to abuse legal drugs, which (among other, more obvious reasons) help to explain the disparity in arrest frequency.
 
2012-05-14 01:13:05 PM  

CruiserTwelve: According to Bureau of Justice Statistics (1995), although almost three-quarters of drug-related arrests are
for possession rather than trafficking, two-thirds of drug-related convictions are for trafficking. A higher fraction
of those charged with trafficking are sentenced to jail or prison, and mean maximum sentences of traffickers are
three times longer. Thus, as of 1993, our calculations suggest that 86% of all drug-related time incarcerated was
on trafficking charges.


And who has the discretion to decide whether a person arrested for drugs is arrested for simple possession and possession with intent to distribute?

Here in New Orleans, if a kid gets arrested with crack on him I can tell you whether the charge will be simple possession or possession with intent to distribute solely based on his race.

Why do suppose that is?
 
2012-05-14 01:15:34 PM  

Snatch Bandergrip: Dusk-You-n-Me

I know this will sound defensive, but I cock an eyebrow at a study that suggests that any group, much less whites, use drugs at an astounding rate of 3 or 4 times higher than other groups. Illegal drug use is more or less even across the racial board. I would expect if anything, whites are more likely to abuse legal drugs, which (among other, more obvious reasons) help to explain the disparity in arrest frequency.


Then it shouldn't be astounding that whites, who are about 70% of the population, represent about 70% of the arrests for drugs.
 
2012-05-14 01:17:32 PM  

CruiserTwelve: Dusk-You-n-Me: [www.yesmagazine.org image 500x314]

That chart shows drug users. Find a chart that shows drug sellers since that's what most drug related prisoners are in prison for.


I'll take your word for it. For the sake of argument, let's even say all of the people in state and federal prison are there for selling and trafficking, not using. Do you believe that white people make up only about 30% of all drug sellers/traffickers in the U.S.? Note that black people make about 13% of the population, and Hispanics make up about 15%. All you've done is claimed that the first graph conflates users with sellers; the second and third graphs on their own are enough to raise suspicions about racial profiling.
 
2012-05-14 01:19:40 PM  

Endrick: Codenamechaz: CruiserTwelve: Dusk-You-n-Me: [www.yesmagazine.org image 500x314]

That chart shows drug users. Find a chart that shows drug sellers since that's what most drug related prisoners are in prison for.

[file.walagata.com image 363x310]

Now go back and tell me what it takes to actually be brought up on trafficking charges. It's one of those easy up-charges that police can throw at just about any user, and it looks great on reports, much like the one you've brought up.


yeah any amount over a very small amount gets you a trafficking charge.
 
2012-05-14 01:22:20 PM  

Codenamechaz: According to the FBI circa 2007 Around 82% of arrests for drug offenses were made for possession, as opposed to 18% for sale and manufacture

Haven't been able to find any recent numbers, but I imagine we'll find a similar trend.


True, but that's irrelevant to the point. The graph posted by Dusk-You-n-Me, and which I was refuting, showed people imprisoned for drug related charges, not people simply arrested. I think your post provides further evidence that people are far more often imprisoned for trafficking than for simple possession, and for longer durations.
 
2012-05-14 01:24:15 PM  

gilgigamesh:

Here in New Orleans, if a kid gets arrested with crack on him I can tell you whether the charge will be simple possession or possession with intent to distribute solely based on his race.

Why do suppose that is?


Wait, so you mean that a kid from the Lower 9th Ward will get a stiffer charge than some white kid from the Garden District? Unpossible I say!

And folks, this kind of horseshiat is not exclusive to the South, not by a long shot. As an example, a kid from the black neighborhoods of Milwaukee or Chicago will face stiffer charges than a well-to-do white kid.
 
2012-05-14 01:25:27 PM  

Salt Lick Steady: Are you defending the abuse of the stop-and-frisk law, or are you just defending cops in general?


Neither actually. I said nothing about stop and frisk laws. I was simply refuting a chart that was designed to make it appear that drug laws are racist or that they are enforced in a racist manner. That chart does not do that.
 
2012-05-14 01:28:23 PM  

Cyclometh: The funniest part is that you probably actually believe that.


Well, yes. The facts provided by the Bureau of Justice Statistics support my belief.
 
2012-05-14 01:32:56 PM  
Ideology aside, King should be replaced in this role by no other reason as not being too bright. He strikes me as someone smart enough to run the taxi dispatch service but not bright enough to attend the management meetings.

Americans need a strong Republican and Democratic voice on National security issues. It is in neither side's interest for King to be the official voice of the GOP on this file. King looks like he in a constant state of panic and confusion.
 
2012-05-14 01:34:12 PM  

IHadMeAVision: I say this in every similar thread, but as a white guy who spends a lot of time driving around and through black neighborhoods in NYC since I'm a pizza guy, I get pulled over and searched a lot. Waaaaaay more than my non-white coworkers, 12 times in 2011 alone. Always undercover cops, never marked cars. Been arrested once from a random search one time when I wasn't working but didn't have to go through booking cuz it was just ash in a bowl for christsakes. People of all races get profiled in NYC for being in the "wrong areas," with the exception that black people get stopped everywhere.



You're being racially profiled, you idiot. You're a white guy in a black neighborhood.
 
2012-05-14 01:34:24 PM  

CruiserTwelve: The facts provided by the Bureau of Justice Statistics support my belief.


The citation for the graph I posted pulls data from the same source, among others.
 
2012-05-14 01:35:48 PM  

liam76: RexTalionis: Even in neighborhoods that are predominantly white, blacks and hispanics get stopped and frisked more.

You realize that alone isn't proof of racial profiling, right?

It doesn't look good and points to racial profiling but you need mroe than that to prove that is what is going on.


Who, me? I don't have to prove anything.

The people who have to prove that racial profiling is occurring is the plaintiff at trial (specifically, the plaintiffs of Floyd, et al. v. City of New York, et al., which is currently pending). Of course, the burden of proof in civil rights cases and civil litigation in general is "preponderance of the evidence" which means that if the evidence shows that what the plaintiffs claim is more likely than not to have happened (i.e. if a mere 50.000001% of the evidence favors plaintiff), then the plaintiff wins.

And, as you say, it doesn't look good and points to racial profiling even on the limited basis of what I posted.
 
2012-05-14 01:39:01 PM  

CruiserTwelve: Salt Lick Steady: Are you defending the abuse of the stop-and-frisk law, or are you just defending cops in general?

Neither actually. I said nothing about stop and frisk laws. I was simply refuting a chart that was designed to make it appear that drug laws are racist or that they are enforced in a racist manner. That chart does not do that.


Is your contention that black people sell more drugs than white people for why that chart was inaccurate?
 
MFL
2012-05-14 01:51:23 PM  
10.Political party of victimhood = Democrats 2012.
9. More likely to be profiled = more likely to seen as victims
8. More likely to end up in Jail = More likely to be profiled.
7. More likely to turn to crime = More likely to end up in Jail
6. Hoplessness = More likely to turn to crime
5. Living in poverty = Hoplessness
4. Births out of wedlock= increases chances to live in poverty.
3 Lack of responsible behavior = Children born out of wedlock.
2. The welfare state = Takes the place of personal responsibility
1. Democrats 1960 = create depencency and permanent voting block via welfare state

I watched Memento yesterday.... Movie messes with your head.
 
2012-05-14 01:52:08 PM  

Boatmech: Also what was your original point? - before all the herpderp showed up.


Yeah, we got off on a tangent.

So, for what it's worth, here's my opinion of the video that is the subject of this thread: Is there racsim in the NYPD? Of course there is. Cops are human and no matter how much you try to weed out the racists you're going to end up with cops that base their enforcement actions at least partially, if not wholly, on race. It's unfortunately human nature. Is racial profiling as prevelant as some make it out to be? No. It's a fact that young black males commit crimes, particularly violent crimes, at a rate far disproportianate to their numbers. It's natural for cops, even those that haven't a racist bone in their bodies, to stop young black males at a disproportianate rate and to arrest them at a disproportianate rate. To say that cops should stop young black males at a rate equal to their percentage in the population is wrong.

Crime is more prevalent in black neighborhoods. Therefore it should be expected that cops that patrol those neighborhoods are going to be more suspicious of certain behaviors in those neighborhoods and are going to be stopping more people and that those people are more likely to be black. So a cop just honestly doing his job will likely stop a disproportianate number of young black males.

You can argue all you want about the causes of the high crime rate among young black males, but the fact is, it exists and the cops have to deal with it.

So when a young black male says "you stopped me because I'm black," that's possibly partially true, but not necessarily racist. The truth is that he was stopped because he was displaying some behavior that was perceived by a cop as being suspicious, and that may include the fact that he was black and was therefore more likely to be committing a crime.
 
2012-05-14 01:52:12 PM  
Well, as long as it's an efficient method of catching criminals, then . .


"Still, the NYCLU's analysis showed that only 3 percent of stops in East New York led to an arrest. In East Harlem, it was 5 percent. Citywide, 6 percent of stops led to arrest."

Link

Never mind.
 
2012-05-14 01:58:33 PM  

MFL: I watched Memento yesterday.... Movie messes with your head.


With so little to mess with, it must be a great movie.
 
xcv
2012-05-14 02:00:27 PM  

CruiserTwelve: Dusk-You-n-Me: [www.yesmagazine.org image 500x314]

That chart shows drug users. Find a chart that shows drug sellers since that's what most drug related prisoners are in prison for.


Stop-and-Frisk programs were sold to the public as a means to get illegal guns off the street and in a stop and frisk, guns are exclusively what cops should be restricted to making arrests for, not harassing kids for drugs or outstanding warrants for other minor offenses.

Also, it would be a stupid waste of police' time to focus Stop-and-Frisk as extensively in other ethnic neighborhoods when 8 out of 10 murders in the city occur in black neighborhoods. That's where gun crime is causing the most suffering and where limited law enforcement resources can make the greatest impact in alleviating the black community from being victimized by violence.
 
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