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(Townhall)   As we have sanitized our public schools from prayer, from displays of the Ten Commandments, from any teaching that can be associated with biblical sources, we've put government monopoly power behind moral relativism   (townhall.com) divider line 179
    More: Obvious, Secretary of Education Arne Duncan, moral relativism, Ten Commandments, secretary of education, Randi Weingarten, American Federation of Teachers, National Education Association, Christian Morals  
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1093 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 May 2012 at 12:18 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-14 09:40:53 AM  
Hey, Christian fundamentalists. With regards to moral relativism:

shewhoprecedesmen.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-05-14 09:44:58 AM  
*yawn*

"Policies that are inclusive of all people are still exclusive of Christians."

How? It's simple. Because they're not able to call the shots for everyone else. "If we're not in total control you're discriminating against us."

Fark off.
 
2012-05-14 09:51:27 AM  
What exactly is wrong with the idea of moral relativism?

The Jews believe that circumcision (based on their religion and tradition) is a good thing and demonstrates a covenant with YHWH. They also come from a tradition that pork, shellfish and blood is bad.

I come from a tradition that goes "WTF, this seems unnecessary" when it comes to circumcision. And we love our pork, shellfish, and blood tofu.

Neither of us are absolutely right. Neither of us are absolutely wrong. The choices we make are only right and wrong relative to our backgrounds and traditions. So, seriously, why is moral relativism such a bad thing?
 
2012-05-14 09:53:56 AM  
There are free market solutions to this Christians. Send your kid to a private school.
 
2012-05-14 09:54:48 AM  
As we have sanitized our public schools from prayer, from displays of the Ten Commandments, from any teaching that can be associated with biblical sources, we've put government monopoly power behind moral relativism secularism

Fixed. Welcome to the United States of America, subby.
 
2012-05-14 09:57:28 AM  

RexTalionis: blood tofu


Blood tofu?

Sorry, but the Jews may be right on this one.
 
2012-05-14 09:58:56 AM  

James!: There are free market solutions to this Christians. Send your kid to a private school.


Not if I'm paying for it.

Norquist tried to pull that crap on last week's Real Time with Bill Maher. "Obama's cruel because he doesn't believe in school vouchers, but still sends his girls to private school." I don't care if you send your kid to a private school. But not on my dime.

/tangential rant
 
2012-05-14 09:59:18 AM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: RexTalionis: blood tofu

Blood tofu?

Sorry, but the Jews may be right on this one.


listfav.com

You know you want it.
 
2012-05-14 10:01:09 AM  

RexTalionis: What exactly is wrong with the idea of moral relativism?


You gotta remember that to Christians (and not just fundamentalists), the only way to reach paradise in the afterlife is to unconditionally accept the Christian God as master of the entire multiverse and to follow every single rule set out by God. Practicing a different faith, if not no faith at all, means that you are defying his rule and will burn for all eternity, even past the heat death of the universe.
 
2012-05-14 10:01:18 AM  
In ther news, kids no longer have a home life and school is the only place they learn.
 
2012-05-14 10:01:37 AM  
if you want your kids to pray in school, send them to a private religious school.
 
2012-05-14 10:03:14 AM  

RexTalionis: Neither of us are absolutely right. Neither of us are absolutely wrong. The choices we make are only right and wrong relative to our backgrounds and traditions. So, seriously, why is moral relativism such a bad thing?


If people aren't really right or wrong, then if God sends someone to eternal torment in hell, it looks like the actions of a cruel, malicious god.

And we all know that God isn't cruel. Thus, some things are right and some wrong.
 
2012-05-14 10:03:47 AM  

Diogenes: James!: There are free market solutions to this Christians. Send your kid to a private school.

Not if I'm paying for it.

Norquist tried to pull that crap on last week's Real Time with Bill Maher. "Obama's cruel because he doesn't believe in school vouchers, but still sends his girls to private school." I don't care if you send your kid to a private school. But not on my dime.

/tangential rant


Totally. If you want weird religious indoctrination for your stupid kids shell out the cash. And no, you cannot be exempt from paying for public schools. Welcome to civilization, you're going to be paying taxes for shiat that benefits people who aren't you.
 
2012-05-14 10:05:34 AM  
The judeo-christian god is about as far from being an arbiter of what is good and moral as it's possible to be. He's not nice, he's not loving, he's a raging farking psychopath who, if he actually existed, would be more deserving of our scorn and disgust than our worship.
 
2012-05-14 10:06:25 AM  

hillbillypharmacist: RexTalionis: Neither of us are absolutely right. Neither of us are absolutely wrong. The choices we make are only right and wrong relative to our backgrounds and traditions. So, seriously, why is moral relativism such a bad thing?

If people aren't really right or wrong, then if God sends someone to eternal torment in hell, it looks like the actions of a cruel, malicious god.

And we all know that God isn't cruel. Thus, some things are right and some wrong.


There's your false assumption.
 
2012-05-14 10:07:43 AM  

RexTalionis: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: RexTalionis: blood tofu

Blood tofu?

Sorry, but the Jews may be right on this one.

[listfav.com image 500x375]

You know you want it.


What the hell is that.
 
2012-05-14 10:09:14 AM  

Serious Black: RexTalionis: What exactly is wrong with the idea of moral relativism?

You gotta remember that to Christians (and not just fundamentalists), the only way to reach paradise in the afterlife is to unconditionally accept the Christian God as master of the entire multiverse and to follow every single rule set out by God. Practicing a different faith, if not no faith at all, means that you are defying his rule and will burn for all eternity, even past the heat death of the universe.


But the idea that there's any consistency or stability to Christian morals is an illusion. It is, itself, relativistic. Perhaps not by design.
 
2012-05-14 10:09:19 AM  

Serious Black: There's your false assumption.


I assume nothing. It is a fact that most Christians, especially evangelicals, believe that God sends people to eternal torment in hell.
 
2012-05-14 10:09:31 AM  

RexTalionis: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: RexTalionis: blood tofu

Blood tofu?

Sorry, but the Jews may be right on this one.

[listfav.com image 500x375]

You know you want it.


Is that... wait, what *is* that? It looks like something created by an Evil Bill Cosby.
 
2012-05-14 10:11:45 AM  

DamnYankees: What the hell is that.


Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Is that... wait, what *is* that? It looks like something created by an Evil Bill Cosby.


It's blood tofu. Essentially, pig's or duck's blood that's cooled and congealed until it has the consistency of silken tofu (or Jell-O). You cook it in soup.
 
2012-05-14 10:19:14 AM  

DammitIForgotMyLogin: The judeo-christian god is about as far from being an arbiter of what is good and moral as it's possible to be. He's not nice, he's not loving, he's a raging farking psychopath who, if he actually existed, would be more deserving of our scorn and disgust than our worship.


Meh, I had a bunch of teachers like that.

But yeah, the holy rollers need to STFU or the kids won't even understand the concept of the number ten, let alone its application to a big long word like 'commandments'.

After they crawl back into their holes, the flavor-of-the-month educrats can STFU too. Anti-bullying is the new No Child Left Behind is the new self-esteem is the new whole language is the new ebonics is the new open classroom and so forth.
 
2012-05-14 10:19:40 AM  

FlashHarry: if you want your kids to pray in school, send them to a private religious school.


Nobody says they can't pray in public school, it just can't be school sponsored. Kids who didn't study for the test pray to the magic skyman all the time.
 
2012-05-14 10:21:40 AM  
FTFA: We have bought into a grand illusion that we can make our public spaces value neutral. The struggle in our public spaces is about competing world views. Not neutrality...we have unfairly suppressed traditional values in favor of promoting alternative secular views.

So Star Parker is a genuine moral relativist. Who knew? She's but one step away from nihilism, in fact.
 
2012-05-14 10:22:33 AM  

RexTalionis: DamnYankees: What the hell is that.

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Is that... wait, what *is* that? It looks like something created by an Evil Bill Cosby.

It's blood tofu. Essentially, pig's or duck's blood that's cooled and congealed until it has the consistency of silken tofu (or Jell-O). You cook it in soup.


Damn Chinese, teaching our children that blood tofu is okay. What happened to the good, righteous days where even chow mein was recognized as foreign and wrong??
 
2012-05-14 10:23:12 AM  

hillbillypharmacist: Serious Black: There's your false assumption.

I assume nothing. It is a fact that most Christians, especially evangelicals, believe that God sends people to eternal torment in hell.


Sorry, I wasn't trying to say that you think God sends people to Hell for eternity. I was simply pointing out that this assumption by Christians is fundamentally wrong IMO.

Diogenes: Serious Black: RexTalionis: What exactly is wrong with the idea of moral relativism?

You gotta remember that to Christians (and not just fundamentalists), the only way to reach paradise in the afterlife is to unconditionally accept the Christian God as master of the entire multiverse and to follow every single rule set out by God. Practicing a different faith, if not no faith at all, means that you are defying his rule and will burn for all eternity, even past the heat death of the universe.

But the idea that there's any consistency or stability to Christian morals is an illusion. It is, itself, relativistic. Perhaps not by design.


I'm not really sure if Christian morals are relativistic or not, but there's no doubt that they clearly ignore some parts of the Bible today, like the approval of slavery because it civilizes the heathen.
 
2012-05-14 10:23:36 AM  
As I've explained to my dumbass dad before (who loves to rant about how they've "kicked God out of school")....

Prayer has been banned in school the same way taking a dump as. You can still do it, but you're expected to do it in reasonable privacy and not disrupt the people around you with it.
Also, school officials cannot officially sponsor your crap.
 
2012-05-14 10:23:59 AM  

swaniefrmreddeer: FlashHarry: if you want your kids to pray in school, send them to a private religious school.

Nobody says they can't pray in public school, it just can't be school sponsored. Kids who didn't study for the test pray to the magic skyman all the time.


well, that's what i meant. yes, if you want to silently ask your bronze-age death-god for help on your civics midterm, knock yourself out.
 
2012-05-14 10:24:12 AM  

RexTalionis: DamnYankees: What the hell is that.

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Is that... wait, what *is* that? It looks like something created by an Evil Bill Cosby.

It's blood tofu. Essentially, pig's or duck's blood that's cooled and congealed until it has the consistency of silken tofu (or Jell-O). You cook it in soup.


*Hork! Hork! Hork! Hork! Hork! Hork! Hork! *
 
2012-05-14 10:24:53 AM  

Serious Black: Sorry, I wasn't trying to say that you think God sends people to Hell for eternity. I was simply pointing out that this assumption by Christians is fundamentally wrong IMO.


;)

Yes, exactly. No doubt fundamentally wrong.
 
2012-05-14 10:28:05 AM  

Serious Black: I'm not really sure if Christian morals are relativistic or not, but there's no doubt that they clearly ignore some parts of the Bible today, like the approval of slavery because it civilizes the heathen.


De facto. It's inevitable over time.

But some of it is is intentionally driven. Read The Family some time. It's a great history on the perversion of Christianity by American Evangelicals.
 
2012-05-14 10:28:14 AM  
If you don't want your precious snowflakes going to Socialist Secular Homosexual Athiest Government schools, you can homeschool your kids or send them to a religious school.
 
2012-05-14 10:50:52 AM  

James!: Totally. If you want weird religious indoctrination for your stupid kids shell out the cash. And no, you cannot be exempt from paying for public schools. Welcome to civilization, you're going to be paying taxes for shiat that benefits people who aren't you.


Exactly. By their logic, I should have a refund for all school taxes I have ever paid since I don't have kids, am never having kids, and will never use the services of a public school. Of course, they would pitch a fit over that, but it's really no different. They don't want to pay for something they're not using. Well, neither do I. But I have accepted that's simply the way it works.
 
2012-05-14 10:57:38 AM  

serpent_sky: James!: Totally. If you want weird religious indoctrination for your stupid kids shell out the cash. And no, you cannot be exempt from paying for public schools. Welcome to civilization, you're going to be paying taxes for shiat that benefits people who aren't you.

Exactly. By their logic, I should have a refund for all school taxes I have ever paid since I don't have kids, am never having kids, and will never use the services of a public school. Of course, they would pitch a fit over that, but it's really no different. They don't want to pay for something they're not using. Well, neither do I. But I have accepted that's simply the way it works.


When Gram starts biatching about taxes (and in an affluent NJ town I have to admit she pays some steep ones) and how she's done her bit, sent her kids to school, paid for it many times over, yadda yadda so she doesn't think she should have to pay them anymore.

Which is when I counter and tell her I don't think I should be paying for her Social Security since she's never drawn a paycheck in her life and never contributed to it.
 
2012-05-14 11:00:32 AM  
They could teach kids about gay history and about religious history without advocating for one or another. Let kids decide on their own. And could teach the basic plots for Christianity, judaism, islam and buddhism and just leave it at that. If instructors frame it as 'christians believe xxxx'. There is no scientific proof to confirm or deny xxxx. That is what they believe. Mormons differ from christians because one side believes this, the other side believes that, etc, etc. all your bases covered and the kids have learned a bunch of stuff. don't advocate anything. don't silence anything either.
 
2012-05-14 11:01:44 AM  

SlothB77: They could teach kids about gay history and about religious history without advocating for one or another.


Teaching about gay history without condemning it would be the equivalent of condoning it, in their eyes.
 
2012-05-14 11:07:11 AM  

DamnYankees: SlothB77: They could teach kids about gay history and about religious history without advocating for one or another.

Teaching about gay history without condemning it would be the equivalent of condoning it, in their eyes.


This.
 
2012-05-14 11:14:28 AM  
As we have sanitized our public schools from prayer, from displays of the Ten Commandments, from any teaching that can be associated with biblical sources, we've put government monopoly power behind moral relativism.

ya know...you CAN take yer kids out of public school and send them to a private religions school. alternatively, you can supplement their secular education by either signing them up for additional religious classes after school or on weekends. or teach them yourself.

nobody is saying that you can't teach kids about God. all anyone is saying is that God doesn't need to be in your chem 101 class.
 
2012-05-14 11:15:31 AM  

SlothB77: They could teach kids about gay history and about religious history without advocating for one or another. Let kids decide on their own. And could teach the basic plots for Christianity, judaism, islam and buddhism and just leave it at that. If instructors frame it as 'christians believe xxxx'. There is no scientific proof to confirm or deny xxxx. That is what they believe. Mormons differ from christians because one side believes this, the other side believes that, etc, etc. all your bases covered and the kids have learned a bunch of stuff. don't advocate anything. don't silence anything either.


The problem is that a lot of these Christian groups aren't really talking about education. Aside from them wanting creationism/intelligent design taught in science classes, they're talking about things that go on outside of teaching time. What they look for is the ability of a teacher to lead a class in prayer, for school-sponsored visits from evangelical groups, to be able to have the school post the 10 Commandments (which has fark all to do with anything) on campus, etc. Their way is the right way, the holy way, the moral way and everything else is destined for hell.
 
2012-05-14 11:16:13 AM  

Diogenes: When Gram starts biatching about taxes (and in an affluent NJ town I have to admit she pays some steep ones) and how she's done her bit, sent her kids to school, paid for it many times over, yadda yadda so she doesn't think she should have to pay them anymore.


My point was, we all have to pay those taxes whether or not we choose to use public schools. I choose not to use them because I choose not to have any children. But that bill isn't going anywhere. Meanwhile, religious people also make the choice to not use those schools and send their kids to private schools. Yes, it costs them something that it does not cost me to not send my non-existent children to school, but that is their choice, and not something they have to do.

I see no reason to supplement their particular choices. I can think of a million things I'd prefer my tax money to go to, various choices I make every day of my life that cost money. But that's not how it works and sometimes, our choices cost us money beyond that which is pooled together for society.
 
2012-05-14 11:20:34 AM  
Oh, blow it out your ass, Star

/if that really is your name
 
2012-05-14 11:27:12 AM  

serpent_sky: Diogenes: When Gram starts biatching about taxes (and in an affluent NJ town I have to admit she pays some steep ones) and how she's done her bit, sent her kids to school, paid for it many times over, yadda yadda so she doesn't think she should have to pay them anymore.

My point was, we all have to pay those taxes whether or not we choose to use public schools. I choose not to use them because I choose not to have any children. But that bill isn't going anywhere. Meanwhile, religious people also make the choice to not use those schools and send their kids to private schools. Yes, it costs them something that it does not cost me to not send my non-existent children to school, but that is their choice, and not something they have to do.

I see no reason to supplement their particular choices. I can think of a million things I'd prefer my tax money to go to, various choices I make every day of my life that cost money. But that's not how it works and sometimes, our choices cost us money beyond that which is pooled together for society.


I wasn't disagreeing with you. I use that counter to Gram to highlight how stupid her argument is.

There are also less easily quantified benefits to her having a superior public school system. She chooses to ignore those.

And I'm against school vouchers for the same reason as you, among others.
 
2012-05-14 11:31:31 AM  

serpent_sky: They don't want to pay for something they're not using.


I hope I never have to use the fire department for its intended purpose, but I'm glad to pay taxes to help fun it.
 
2012-05-14 11:39:38 AM  
Why would anyone want to post the Ten Commandments anywhere? Most of them are irrelevant and a couple are in direct conflict with America.
 
2012-05-14 11:47:35 AM  

Mugato: Why would anyone want to post the Ten Commandments anywhere? Most of them are irrelevant and a couple are in direct conflict with America.


Because they've become a sort of totem to modern Christian culture. The 10 Commandments actual origin and/or contents is irrelevant.
 
2012-05-14 11:49:34 AM  
With that headline and the source, there is a -85% chance I'm clicking. It's too early for a migraine.
 
2012-05-14 11:52:11 AM  

ManateeGag: serpent_sky: They don't want to pay for something they're not using.

I hope I never have to use the fire department for its intended purpose, but I'm glad to pay taxes to help fun it.


There was that story about the private fire department that let a house burn because the people didn't pay. There are many reasons certain services should simply be available and taxpayer funded. That is absolutely one of them.
 
2012-05-14 11:53:20 AM  
As we have sanitized our public schools from prayer...

i.imgur.com
 
2012-05-14 11:57:57 AM  

Mugato: Why would anyone want to post the Ten Commandments anywhere? Most of them are irrelevant and a couple are in direct conflict with America.


34 The Lord said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 2 Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to me there on top of the mountain. 3 No one is to come with you or be seen anywhere on the mountain; not even the flocks and herds may graze in front of the mountain."

4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the Lord had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then the Lord came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the Lord. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation."

8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped. 9 "Lord," he said, "if I have found favor in your eyes, then let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance."

10 Then the Lord said: "I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the Lord, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.[a] 14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

15 "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.

17 "Do not make any idols.

18 "Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt.

19 "The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.

"No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

21 "Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

22 "Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year. 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the Lord your God.

25 "Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.

26 "Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God.

"Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk."

27 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant-the Ten Commandments.


- Exodus 34
 
2012-05-14 12:03:02 PM  

kid_icarus: Mugato: Why would anyone want to post the Ten Commandments anywhere? Most of them are irrelevant and a couple are in direct conflict with America.

Because they've become a sort of totem to modern Christian culture. The 10 Commandments actual origin and/or contents is irrelevant.


And yet a complete and unequivocal condemnation of homosexuality is not present in any of the Ten Commandments. I wonder why that is?
 
2012-05-14 12:04:47 PM  

Serious Black: kid_icarus: Mugato: Why would anyone want to post the Ten Commandments anywhere? Most of them are irrelevant and a couple are in direct conflict with America.

Because they've become a sort of totem to modern Christian culture. The 10 Commandments actual origin and/or contents is irrelevant.

And yet a complete and unequivocal condemnation of homosexuality is not present in any of the Ten Commandments. I wonder why that is?


even the new testament is quiet on the subject of homosexuality. it's almost as if sexual orientation was completely irrelevant to God.
 
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