First of all, that headline made my brain hurt

Secondly, if a seven-time world champion can't figure out a car on 20-lap old tyres (or whatever Senna's actually were) is going to have an earlier braking point that one on brand-new rubber, he shouldn't be in the car.

Thirdly, probably not the best timing to mock pay-drivers when one of them won the very race this incident happened in.

Also, what happened in Barcelona? It's supposed to be the most boring weekend of the year

Flab: It was all Schumi's fault. Despite the fact that Senna is a bad driver.

Otherwise, it was a great race.

Definitely Schumi's fault, but Senna did make two moves. Either penalize both or neither of them IMHO.

"One of" subby? The 7 drivers championships and 91 race victories makes him the winningest driver in F1 history. That said, the accident was his fault, and though I'm a huge Schumi fan, he's not teh best ever. That would be the guy he hit's Uncle Ayrton...

LucklessWonder: "One of" subby? The 7 drivers championships and 91 race victories makes him the winningest driver in F1 history. That said, the accident was his fault, and though I'm a huge Schumi fan, he's not teh best ever. That would be the guy he hit's Uncle Ayrton...

This.

It's sad that Bruno is not that good, because Ayrton was a goddamn savant.

digistil: Flab: It was all Schumi's fault. Despite the fact that Senna is a bad driver.

Otherwise, it was a great race.

Definitely Schumi's fault, but Senna did make two moves. Either penalize both or neither of them IMHO.

Senna made one move...off the racing line to defend, then back to the racing line for the braking zone is one move. That's why he wasn't penalized.

That said, I'm siding with Schumi on this one, there just wasn't much he could do. The grid penalty is pretty harsh...I'd chalk it up to a racing incident.

ThunderChild: Thirdly, probably not the best timing to mock pay-drivers when one of them won the very race this incident happened in.

Indeed. Maldonado drove like he was on fire.

afghanwhiggle: Senna made one move...off the racing line to defend, then back to the racing line for the braking zone is one move. That's why he wasn't penalized.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not allowed to make more than one move even given the circumstances you describe.

For reference: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/16416932

Even before the update, it was assumed.

We talking about Karthikeyan as the pay-seat driver?

digistil: afghanwhiggle: Senna made one move...off the racing line to defend, then back to the racing line for the braking zone is one move. That's why he wasn't penalized.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not allowed to make more than one move even given the circumstances you describe.

For reference: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/16416932

Even before the update, it was assumed.

You're allowed one move off the racing line (In this case, the move to the left) and one move back toward the line (which he was making), as long as that move left at least one car width between your car and the edge of the track. We will never know if he was going to leave that car width as he got nailed before he could get back across the track.

Senna's move was perfectly within the rules. Schumi's having a rough season (he's behind Massa in the standings) and obviously having issues coping with the current tires. As things sit today I think he retires at the end of the season.

digistil: afghanwhiggle: Senna made one move...off the racing line to defend, then back to the racing line for the braking zone is one move. That's why he wasn't penalized.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not allowed to make more than one move even given the circumstances you describe.

For reference: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/16416932

Even before the update, it was assumed.


FTA: "Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner."

I think because Senna left enough room on the oustide and didn't completely shut the door, is why he got any with it. If MSC had stayed on the outside, and not tried to cut back in, he'd have a better case about Senna not leaving a car width..but since he changed direction in the braking zone, the fault lies with him.

kidgenius: We talking about Karthikeyan as the pay-seat driver?

I think there's a pretty strong arguement for MSC being a pay-driver now...

Ok, I've watched Top Gear and seen the Senna documentary, but I'm still pretty unaware of what F1 is about. What is a "purchased seat driver" you guys are talking about?

phyrkrakr: Ok, I've watched Top Gear and seen the Senna documentary, but I'm still pretty unaware of what F1 is about. What is a "purchased seat driver" you guys are talking about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_driver

Basically, he doesn't get paid because he's not good enough to warrant it, he pays to be the driver and get 'experience'...so $ = being able to drive in F1.

afghanwhiggle: digistil: afghanwhiggle: Senna made one move...off the racing line to defend, then back to the racing line for the braking zone is one move. That's why he wasn't penalized.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not allowed to make more than one move even given the circumstances you describe.

For reference: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/16416932

Even before the update, it was assumed.


FTA: "Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner."

I think because Senna left enough room on the oustide and didn't completely shut the door, is why he got any with it. If MSC had stayed on the outside, and not tried to cut back in, he'd have a better case about Senna not leaving a car width..but since he changed direction in the braking zone, the fault lies with him.

Ah, ok. I was remembering Schumi being w/i a car length, but I'm probably wrong.

phimuskapsi: Basically, he doesn't get paid because he's not good enough to warrant it, he pays to be the driver and get 'experience'...so $ = being able to drive in F1.

Flab: It's when a sponsor tells a team: "I'll give you $$$$, but you have to let [me | my nephew | this guy from my country] drive".

Thanks. And I didn't realize there were so many rules about how to drive the cars in the race. The only racing I've ever really been exposed to is NASCAR (which sucks) or Rally, which is a completely different animal from a lot of racing.

Senna's Williams' butt's too big.

So let me get this straight....

Hamilton actually bothers to finish Q3, which multiple drivers didn't do, and didn't finish returning to the paddock - presumably because he was running out of fuel.

That apparently warranted a 23-place grid drop.

Running into the back of another driver and creating a major safety hazard? Five-place grid penalty.

/complete and utter bullshiat

UNC_Samurai: So let me get this straight....

Hamilton actually bothers to finish Q3, which multiple drivers didn't do, and didn't finish returning to the paddock - presumably because he was running out of fuel.

That apparently warranted a 23-place grid drop.

Running into the back of another driver and creating a major safety hazard? Five-place grid penalty.

/complete and utter bullshiat

But Hamilton didn't finish Q3...that's the point. Sure, he participated, but didn't finish. It's shocking how much McLaren has screwed him over his career though....

afghanwhiggle: UNC_Samurai: So let me get this straight....

But Hamilton didn't finish Q3...that's the point. Sure, he participated, but didn't finish. It's shocking how much McLaren has screwed him over his career though....

The fact he finished Q1 and Q2 and made it into Q3 should've meant that his grid penalty was to be dropped down to the last spot of Q3, not the last spot in the race. He had plenty of fuel left on board for testing, just not enough to limp to the pits AND perform testing.

kidgenius: afghanwhiggle: UNC_Samurai: So let me get this straight....

But Hamilton didn't finish Q3...that's the point. Sure, he participated, but didn't finish. It's shocking how much McLaren has screwed him over his career though....

The fact he finished Q1 and Q2 and made it into Q3 should've meant that his grid penalty was to be dropped down to the last spot of Q3, not the last spot in the race. He had plenty of fuel left on board for testing, just not enough to limp to the pits AND perform testing.

I thought you needed like 2kg of fuel for the testing. I also thought they used ~1-2kg per lap at race speed. At low speed and engine map 2.5kg should be plenty to finish the lap with fuel left. Also, if he had enough for testing, why have other people been able to stop on the track after the end of races and not been penalized next race?

I still think the run 1 lap thing is stupid. Seb did more untimed laps than MSC, so he got the place on the grid. WTF? Make them set a time and force the teams that want to save tires run to a P11 pace. Q3 should be a 10 car shootout not a formality.

afghanwhiggle: UNC_Samurai: So let me get this straight....

Hamilton actually bothers to finish Q3, which multiple drivers didn't do, and didn't finish returning to the paddock - presumably because he was running out of fuel.

That apparently warranted a 23-place grid drop.

Running into the back of another driver and creating a major safety hazard? Five-place grid penalty.

/complete and utter bullshiat

But Hamilton didn't finish Q3...that's the point. Sure, he participated, but didn't finish. It's shocking how much McLaren has screwed him over his career though....

Didn't numerous drivers qualify for, yet not complete a lap in Q3?

phyrkrakr: And I didn't realize there were so many rules about how to drive the cars in the race.

And a fair amount of the why behind those rules is due to Schumacher. He pulled some pretty ridiculous blocking maneuvers back in the day. He's toned it down somewhat since his return, but old habits die hard.

UNC_Samurai: So let me get this straight....

Hamilton actually bothers to finish Q3, which multiple drivers didn't do, and didn't finish returning to the paddock - presumably because he was running out of fuel.

That apparently warranted a 23-place grid drop.

Running into the back of another driver and creating a major safety hazard? Five-place grid penalty.

/complete and utter bullshiat

Hamilton's penalty was correct. The penalties for not being able to provide a fuel sample are especially harsh because fuel is the one area where a team could cheat and the evidence is destroyed. If they ran completely out of fuel the FIA would have no way to know whether they had used illegal fuel, so they had no choice but to exclude his results from qualifying.

Oddly enough, if Hamilton had stood on his first timed lap of the session instead of trying to top it he would have not had this problem and possibly been able to win the race.

5 grid spots for an avoidable accident is pretty much standard when the penalty isn't handed down during the race. It would have been the same penalty if the contact only cut a tire or bent a suspension piece and Schumacher retired.

Guelph35: UNC_Samurai: So let me get this straight....

Hamilton actually bothers to finish Q3, which multiple drivers didn't do, and didn't finish returning to the paddock - presumably because he was running out of fuel.

That apparently warranted a 23-place grid drop.

Running into the back of another driver and creating a major safety hazard? Five-place grid penalty.

/complete and utter bullshiat

Hamilton's penalty was correct. The penalties for not being able to provide a fuel sample are especially harsh because fuel is the one area where a team could cheat and the evidence is destroyed. If they ran completely out of fuel the FIA would have no way to know whether they had used illegal fuel, so they had no choice but to exclude his results from qualifying.

Oddly enough, if Hamilton had stood on his first timed lap of the session instead of trying to top it he would have not had this problem and possibly been able to win the race.

5 grid spots for an avoidable accident is pretty much standard when the penalty isn't handed down during the race. It would have been the same penalty if the contact only cut a tire or bent a suspension piece and Schumacher retired.

He had enough fuel for testing though (1.3L), so why not throw out that last lap?

digistil: afghanwhiggle: UNC_Samurai: So let me get this straight....

Hamilton actually bothers to finish Q3, which multiple drivers didn't do, and didn't finish returning to the paddock - presumably because he was running out of fuel.

That apparently warranted a 23-place grid drop.

Running into the back of another driver and creating a major safety hazard? Five-place grid penalty.

/complete and utter bullshiat

But Hamilton didn't finish Q3...that's the point. Sure, he participated, but didn't finish. It's shocking how much McLaren has screwed him over his career though....

Didn't numerous drivers qualify for, yet not complete a lap in Q3?

Yep, but if you make it out on the track and set a time, you better be damn sure you get it back to the pits so they can get a sample.

On a side note, the current qualifying setup has run its course. It's totally stupid, and bad for the fans. Give these guys one set of options per round of qualifying, and let them drive the wheels off. We can wait for the race to enjoy the strategy component of F1.

digistil: Guelph35: UNC_Samurai: So let me get this straight....

Hamilton actually bothers to finish Q3, which multiple drivers didn't do, and didn't finish returning to the paddock - presumably because he was running out of fuel.

That apparently warranted a 23-place grid drop.

Running into the back of another driver and creating a major safety hazard? Five-place grid penalty.

/complete and utter bullshiat

Hamilton's penalty was correct. The penalties for not being able to provide a fuel sample are especially harsh because fuel is the one area where a team could cheat and the evidence is destroyed. If they ran completely out of fuel the FIA would have no way to know whether they had used illegal fuel, so they had no choice but to exclude his results from qualifying.

Oddly enough, if Hamilton had stood on his first timed lap of the session instead of trying to top it he would have not had this problem and possibly been able to win the race.

5 grid spots for an avoidable accident is pretty much standard when the penalty isn't handed down during the race. It would have been the same penalty if the contact only cut a tire or bent a suspension piece and Schumacher retired.

He had enough fuel for testing though (1.3L), so why not throw out that last lap?

Because he failed to return to the pits, and if he had returned to the pits he would not have had enough fuel.

He might've been able to get away with "accidentally" getting himself stuck in the gravel to save the fuel. I don't think anyone's tried that one yet.

Although I like Schumi for his impressive career I considering him a dick in general after trying to take out Jacques Villeneuve in the 97 European GP.

One of the most winning F1 drivers in history is punished for not being able to comprehend how bad an F1 purchased-seat driver can be

I'm sure he is aware how bad such a driver can be; he is one.

/If he's drawing a salary, he sure as shiat hasn't earned it.

mjg: Although I like Schumi for his impressive career I considering him a dick in general after trying to take out Jacques Villeneuve in the 97 European GP.

I was going to say after taking out Damon Hill in the '94 Australian Grand Prix. I guess it's the same thing though, right? Luckily, it didn't work so well the second time.

Senna might be a pay driver, but he's not an embarassment out there, like some are and have been. He's not in the Karthekayan or Yoong class, that's for sure.

Coulthard on the BBC feed explained it in terms of his accident at the Nurnburgring, where Alonso brake-checked him and sent him into the gravel. Basically FIA said that the driver in front has the right to chose his braking point, even if that point if 30m before where it was last lap. The argument about Senna moving is pretty weak...he clearly never changed lanes; it looked like he thought about going defensive, made about a 1/4 car width move in that direction and then went most of the way back to his original line. Schumacher just plain misjudged the move is all. Like most of the best drivers, he simply is incapable of admitting fault.

ThunderChild: probably not the best timing to mock pay-drivers when one of them won the very race this incident happened in.

Flab: Guelph35: digistil: Guelph35: UNC_Samurai: So let me get this straight....

Hamilton actually bothers to finish Q3, which multiple drivers didn't do, and didn't finish returning to the paddock - presumably because he was running out of fuel.

That apparently warranted a 23-place grid drop.

Running into the back of another driver and creating a major safety hazard? Five-place grid penalty.

/complete and utter bullshiat

Hamilton's penalty was correct. The penalties for not being able to provide a fuel sample are especially harsh because fuel is the one area where a team could cheat and the evidence is destroyed. If they ran completely out of fuel the FIA would have no way to know whether they had used illegal fuel, so they had no choice but to exclude his results from qualifying.

Oddly enough, if Hamilton had stood on his first timed lap of the session instead of trying to top it he would have not had this problem and possibly been able to win the race.

5 grid spots for an avoidable accident is pretty much standard when the penalty isn't handed down during the race. It would have been the same penalty if the contact only cut a tire or bent a suspension piece and Schumacher retired.

He had enough fuel for testing though (1.3L), so why not throw out that last lap?

Because he failed to return to the pits, and if he had returned to the pits he would not have had enough fuel.

He might've been able to get away with "accidentally" getting himself stuck in the gravel to save the fuel. I don't think anyone's tried that one yet.

probably wouldn't have worked. when Schumi smashed in the wall in Monaco to fark everyone else's qualifying time a few years ago, he got pimped slapped for it. If Hamilton had tried something like that, the officials would have probably seen it for what it was. Especially considering how grumpy they were this week-end.

Actually, Schumi never touched the wall in Rascasse. If he had, he might have gotten away with it. It was only because it was so obviously deliberate that he got slapped down. He deserved worse, actually, but so it goes.

Wonderduck: Actually, Schumi never touched the wall in Rascasse. If he had, he might have gotten away with it. It was only because it was so obviously deliberate that he got slapped down. He deserved worse, actually, but so it goes.

Winner winner chicken dinner!

It might take a few minutes longer than it does now, but I'd like to see Q3 go as follows:

Send the cars out one at a time in reverse order of their Q2 position (10th goes out first, 1st goes out last).

One timed lap per car.

Of course I'd also junk the "Start on your qualifying tires" and "Must use both compounds" rules.