If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The New York Times)   Lead Shrink on D.S.M. 4 says, "D.S.M. 5 promises to be a disaster that will medicalize normality, introduce Har Har Finks"   (nytimes.com) divider line 178
    More: Scary, Diagnosing the D.S.M., D.S.M., antipsychotic medications, Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, American Psychiatric Association, Medical prescription, clinical practice, primary care doctors  
•       •       •

13432 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 May 2012 at 6:49 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



178 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Last | Show all
 
2012-05-13 09:26:11 PM

BigJake: Smidge204: dahmers love zombie: I cannot conceive of a single legitimate medical reason for this.

Those infants were babbling incoherently, grasping at imaginary objects in mid-air, and soiling themselves constantly. Most of them are so disconnected they can't even stand. They clearly need the meds.
=Smidge=

Hey Post Signer! You're the worst. Knock it off.


Don't listen to him, Smidge. One day, you're going to State with that post-sign game you've got.
 
2012-05-13 09:31:08 PM

Jixa: dahmers love zombie: I cannot conceive of a single legitimate medical reason for this.


I'm sure GlaxoSmithKline, Pfizer, AstraZeneca and the other pharmaceutical companies could conceive of several billion monetary reasons.

Because everyone is sick and even if you're not, there's a pill for that too.


I see my wife beat me to your post. Our oldest son started on risperdal (and more and stronger drugs from there) at age 5, at the time we were told by the school board that if we did not put him on medication then they would bar him from the school system in Austin Texas. Today he is 14 and the cocktail of meds he takes twice daily would likely overdose me....fyi i'm built like a 6 foot sumo wrestler. We started off with doctors labling him as Autistic/Asbergers and he has graduated into full blown schitzophrenia and a laundry list of other disorders that scare the hell out of group homes whenever we try to get him onto thier list. Despite all these issues, and despite showing signs of severe behavioral disorders starting at age 4, at age 1-3 he was just a baby, a bit different when we compared notes with other parents, but just a baby none the less. If, at age 1 or 2 some doctor had told me to put him on massive amounts of anti-psychotics then I would have promptly knocked his phd loving ass out. Today if a doctor threatened to take away his massive cocktail of drugs without clinical lockdown involved, its possibly a death sentence for 1 or 2 of us, or kidnapping and confinement charges for myself when I have to tie him up.

Also, MEDICARE. Every motherfarking person in America should have Medicare. Take half my paycheck, I dont care, put everybody on Medicare. Every person in this country that would stop the government from providing medicare to those who can not get work provided health insurance is a farking traitor who deserves to be farking hanged. God damn you and I hope you get run over by a truck, and then have it covered by Medicare. You farktards.



/cant even afford chinese meds for myself but thank FSM my kids are covered.
 
2012-05-13 09:40:13 PM

Great Janitor: Will D.S.M. 5 pick up the open ended plot lines that D.S.M. 4 failed to resolve?


Sadly it just another sequel. Mostly derivative and lacking the depth of the original trilogy.
 
2012-05-13 09:42:37 PM
How are you people getting your meds? I mean, I can go and have gone to my doctors office and he won't even give me a gotdamn tylenol for a headache.. he'll tell me to knock it off. But you people are getting the good sh*t easy?
 
2012-05-13 09:48:22 PM

A Terrible Human: For some reason that article gives off Scientology like vibes.


A healthy skepticism of pharmaceutical cures that require long term dependence should not considered the sole providence of wingnuts or those harboring aliens in their bloodstream. There's probably an antipsychotic for that.
 
2012-05-13 09:53:29 PM
 
2012-05-13 09:53:56 PM

cookiefleck: How are you people getting your meds? I mean, I can go and have gone to my doctors office and he won't even give me a gotdamn tylenol for a headache.. he'll tell me to knock it off. But you people are getting the good sh*t easy?


Psych meds aren't "the good meds." They're a far cry from it. They won't make you feel good, and most have a pretty decent chance of farking you right up.

You're looking for amphetamines, benzos, and opiates. Still potentially dangerous, much more fun.
 
2012-05-13 09:54:11 PM

Gunny Walker: [i38.photobucket.com image 320x180]
Does it include sexual addiction?


Came for this, leaving satisfied.

/Mostly because I've been watching that show all damn day
//Like some sort of...addict
 
2012-05-13 09:55:03 PM

DerAppie: I'm still waiting for someone to classify introversion as a disorder. i mean, how could anyone enjoy him/herself in low stimulus environments? And what about that ability to concentrate for longer periods? That's just freaky. There should be a pill to ensure that they are happy, extroverted people.


The term "asocial" is still officially connected to Antisocial Personality IIRC, but in many circles it technically means anything from a mild introvert to someone who completely checks out of society and moves into the wilderness. That actually occasionally leads to lay people (especially HR, executives, and moms) attempting to diagnose anyone who's the slightest bit introverted with antisocial disorder and assming they're going to go postal on everyone at the first chance.
 
2012-05-13 10:01:21 PM

cookiefleck: How are you people getting your meds? I mean, I can go and have gone to my doctors office and he won't even give me a gotdamn tylenol for a headache.. he'll tell me to knock it off. But you people are getting the good sh*t easy?


Thus the term, "doctor shopping."
 
2012-05-13 10:03:45 PM

AliceBToklasLives: Glenford: I used to work in an adolescent psychiatric unit. You know what Oppositional Defiance Disorder is? Adolescence. It has to be the biggest bullshiat diagnosis.

I was once told that pretty much everyone in prison has Antisocial Personality Disorder. This was said with a straight face by a mental health professional.


Well, yes. One of the biggest criticisms of APD as a diagnostic category was that it was pretty much just a description of criminality. That's one of the reasons that it's eliminated in DSM V as part of the complete overhaul they did of the diagnostic framework of personality disorders.

The DSM V framework boils down a whole bunch of personality disorders in DSM IV to---I think DSM V has 4 PDs.

A lot of the stuff from APD, and from outside the DSM IV that was being discussed as sociopathy, and from NPD, has been grouped under the personality disorder "Psychopathy."

DSM V's approach to the personality disorders is to take a long list of attributes that you have to meet along certain axes to qualify for the disorder, and then focus on the degree to which those symptoms or attributes or deficits impair your functioning or otherwise affect you in major life areas.

This is where I disagree with the doctor who wrote TFA. DSM V, when it's used as designed, will reduce defining normal people with normal behavior as mentally ill, because DSM V gets back to one of the primary, root focuses of how we define mental illness.

Now, as a psychiatrist, he may have a problem with this approach, I don't know. As a psychiatrist, he's an MD, which means he looks at mental illness through the medical model, and not so much through the combined lens of medical issues combined with learned behaviors, cognitive components, and adaptive skills deficits.

Note that he's--as a doctor---equating treatment to pills and forgetting that there are non-pill treatments (like CBT for depression) that have a great research-substantiated track record for various disorders. Having some features of a diagnosis but not having the diagnosis can also be a guidepost for a therapist in helping a patient who just has a few problems in living to iron out, who can then go on his or her merry way and be done with things. Doesn't need a diagnosis, just needs a bit of good advice---and the manual gives the therapist a bit of a nudge in the right direction towards unraveling the patient's problem.

Take a kid who is having some attention problems but doesn't quite meet the diagnostic criteria for ADHD. Fixing the kid's attention problems in class may be as simple as sending him in with a thermos of iced tea and the teacher ignoring it when he drinks a mug of it in class to settle down. (Some schools are still sane.)

Ta-da. One kid who's doing well in school without a label, just an informal solution that works for that particular kid. Just a smidge of caffeine here and there and the kid's brain runs nice and smooth.

The only time we need to medicalize and label everything is when we've got too much of a stick up our collective butts to deal with people's eccentricities and quirks individually and informally and instead we try to treat everybody exactly the same unless they have a note from their doctor in triplicate.

That's why we've really got a million people diagnosed with a million things---because we quit having the common sense to treat people as individuals and we make everybody document everything with a doctor's note in triplicate and a pile of research studies over why they need to be cut some slack this particular way.

So people get the diagnosis, and they get the doctor's note in triplicate, and they get the pile of research studies to document why their kid needs the thermos of iced tea as an accommodation in class---only the kid ends up on a pill instead, because it's easier to get the school to not make waves over a pill than it is over a thermos of tea or a can of coke or a cup of coffee that would work just as well.

All these kids are diagnosed not because we're trying to medicalize normal people, but because we're trying to regiment people into little automatons, all exactly alike, all treated exactly like little robots, so that every little difference or bit of individuality is only tolerated with a doctor's excuse.

When we break the authoritarians' canes in half and send them home with a nice pension to raise petunias, and we go back to telling our neighbors and strangers, "Sure, why not? It's a free country."

When our communities elect school board members who campaign on a platform, "The phrase 'zero tolerance' sends the wrong message, a message of hatred and pain, to our youth. Tolerance is a virtue. We can teach and expect good behavior without bad-mouthing tolerance."

I'm serious. There needs to be a backlash movement to wipe that phrase off the face of American education.

And when we can deal with the variety and variability of free human beings, then people will quit having to have their tiniest deviance from some imaginary ideal medically diagnosed as a "defect."
 
2012-05-13 10:04:38 PM

foxyshadis: DerAppie: I'm still waiting for someone to classify introversion as a disorder. i mean, how could anyone enjoy him/herself in low stimulus environments? And what about that ability to concentrate for longer periods? That's just freaky. There should be a pill to ensure that they are happy, extroverted people.

The term "asocial" is still officially connected to Antisocial Personality IIRC, but in many circles it technically means anything from a mild introvert to someone who completely checks out of society and moves into the wilderness. That actually occasionally leads to lay people (especially HR, executives, and moms) attempting to diagnose anyone who's the slightest bit introverted with antisocial disorder and assming they're going to go postal on everyone at the first chance.


That actually avoidance personality disorder. It just means you don't like being around other people and are happier alone. Therapists are not to treat it like a problem unless the patient is unhappy about it. If they're happy and not hurting anyone or themselves just about every thearpist is willing to let things be.
/Also the therapy is the same with what you do with your shy friends. IE force them into social events and engagements.
 
2012-05-13 10:05:02 PM
I got a little creeped out reading this excerpt from the link under the article about 9 year old psychopaths:

By the time he turned 5, Michael had developed an uncanny ability to switch from full-blown anger to moments of pure rationality or calculated charm - a facility that Anne describes as deeply unsettling. "You never know when you're going to see a proper emotion," she said. She recalled one argument, over a homework assignment, when Michael shrieked and wept as she tried to reason with him. "I said: 'Michael, remember the brainstorming we did yesterday? All you have to do is take your thoughts from that and turn them into sentences, and you're done!' He's still screaming bloody murder, so I say, 'Michael, I thought we brainstormed so we could avoid all this drama today.' He stopped dead, in the middle of the screaming, turned to me and said in this flat, adult voice, 'Well, you didn't think that through very clearly then, did you?' "

Gugh. If my kid had done that I probably would have moved out right then.
 
2012-05-13 10:05:09 PM

MindStalker: dahmers love zombie: namegoeshere: As an Uninsured American, I am of course immune to all of these new psychiatric diagnoses.

It still scares the farking shiat out of me. For example: The report also found almost 4,000 foster and non-foster care infants - under a year old - on Medicaid in five states were taking psychotropic drugs. Researchers said the risks these drugs pose to children are "not well understood". Infants. Less than one year old. On psychotropic medication. Infants. Less than one year old.

I cannot conceive of a single legitimate medical reason for this.

Crack babies and heavily abused infants could theoretically have a need for such medication to get over their shock trauma.


This.

Which is exactly the types of babies you find in unusually high statistical numbers in that group (fosters).

Still, it's something that should be tracked very closely...
 
2012-05-13 10:05:38 PM
I won't give a shiat until all these new "illnesses" breed the next generation of human vermin claiming to be disabled so they can live off my dime.
 
2012-05-13 10:11:27 PM

foxyshadis: DerAppie: I'm still waiting for someone to classify introversion as a disorder. i mean, how could anyone enjoy him/herself in low stimulus environments? And what about that ability to concentrate for longer periods? That's just freaky. There should be a pill to ensure that they are happy, extroverted people.

The term "asocial" is still officially connected to Antisocial Personality IIRC, but in many circles it technically means anything from a mild introvert to someone who completely checks out of society and moves into the wilderness. That actually occasionally leads to lay people (especially HR, executives, and moms) attempting to diagnose anyone who's the slightest bit introverted with antisocial disorder and assming they're going to go postal on everyone at the first chance.


Actuality, sociopaths cannot stand being alone, and are often extremely extroverted. The idea of them being the creepy loner is a falsehood created by hollywood. In reality, sociopaths are excellent impression managers, and are more likely to be the last person you suspect. Probably very popular, and well liked. The term antisocial as it applies to them just means they are destructive socially, not that they don't take part in society. They need people around them to manipulate and psychologically torture because it makes them feel powerful.

In a way, someone being a loner is a good way to tell if they aren't a sociopath, but it doesn't mean they're necessarily sane or harmless, either.
 
2012-05-13 10:11:38 PM

cookiefleck: How are you people getting your meds? I mean, I can go and have gone to my doctors office and he won't even give me a gotdamn tylenol for a headache.. he'll tell me to knock it off. But you people are getting the good sh*t easy?


Doctors seem to vary. It's tough to get anyone to prescribe Adderall where I live, presumably because of people abusing it for studying and other illegitimate purposes, but the last time I was in Los Altos, I saw a doctor's office with a large banner outside saying "ADD Prescriptions Available Here," or some such.

It sounds like you just have to keep doctor-shopping until one of them hooks you up.
 
2012-05-13 10:14:45 PM

AliceBToklasLives: Glenford: I used to work in an adolescent psychiatric unit. You know what Oppositional Defiance Disorder is? Adolescence. It has to be the biggest bullshiat diagnosis.

I was once told that pretty much everyone in prison has Antisocial Personality Disorder. This was said with a straight face by a mental health professional.


Quick google: "Antisocial personality disorder is a mental health condition in which a person has a long-term pattern of manipulating, exploiting, or violating the rights of others. This behavior is often criminal."

Wiki: "The World Health Organization's International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems, tenth edition (ICD-10), defines a conceptually similar disorder to antisocial personality disorder called (F60.2 ) Dissocial personality disorder.[5]
It is characterized by at least 3 of the following:
Callous unconcern for the feelings of others.
Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them.
Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.
There may be persistent irritability as an associated feature.
The diagnosis includes what may be referred to as amoral, antisocial, asocial, psychopathic, and sociopathic personality (disorder).
The criteria specifically rule out conduct disorders.[6] Dissocial personality disorder criteria differ from those for antisocial and sociopathic personality disorders.[7]
It is a requirement of ICD-10 that a diagnosis of any specific personality disorder also satisfies a set of general personality disorder criteria.
[edit]DSM-IV
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth edition (DSM IV-TR), defines antisocial personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[1]
A) There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:
failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead;
irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;
B) The individual is at least age 18 years.
C) There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.
D) The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode.
New evidence points to the possibility that children often develop antisocial personality disorder as a result of environmental as well as genetic influence. The individual must be at least 18 years of age to be diagnosed with this disorder (Criterion B), but those commonly diagnosed with ASPD as adults were diagnosed with conduct disorder as children. The prevalence of this disorder is 3% in males and 1% from females, as stated in the DSM IV-TR."

People who engage in this behavior on a regular basis end up in prison?

encrypted-tbn1.google.com
 
2012-05-13 10:17:57 PM

Julie Cochrane: Note that he's--as a doctor---equating treatment to pills and forgetting that there are non-pill treatments


Kind of a stretch. I know we were trained about everything from exercise to CBT to St. John's wort to just making time to talk the the patient all the way up to electroshock therapy (ECT - which is still used occasionally to this day and can be very effective for severe, refractory depression).
And that was just as a med student, psych residents learn quite a but more.

This idea that all doctors are just machines you feed symptoms into which then attempt to spit out the appropriate pill to dull the symptoms is downright silly. I'm not sure where it came from, but your physician should be doing a much better job than that.
 
2012-05-13 10:19:57 PM

PepperFreak: I won't give a shiat until all these new "illnesses" breed the next generation of human vermin claiming to be disabled so they can live off my dime.


shiat, you should take a look at yourself if you want to see some "human vermin".
 
2012-05-13 10:21:09 PM

Kanemano: Asa Phelps: dahmers love zombie: namegoeshere: As an Uninsured American, I am of course immune to all of these new psychiatric diagnoses.

It still scares the farking shiat out of me. For example: The report also found almost 4,000 foster and non-foster care infants - under a year old - on Medicaid in five states were taking psychotropic drugs. Researchers said the risks these drugs pose to children are "not well understood". Infants. Less than one year old. On psychotropic medication. Infants. Less than one year old.

I cannot conceive of a single legitimate medical reason for this.

My reaction to the alarmism in the article and in the quoted text is "I would like to see some specific examples".

link goes to another link that cites the studies, in footnotes


The study references several legitimate medical reasons and cautions that the psychotropic effects specific to infants are not well understood.

Some of them are undergoing treatment for symptoms of withdrawl from the drugs their mothers were strung out on.

It's important to remember that antihistamines are considered psychotropic. Especially benadryl, fwiw.

The study also explains that many of these prescriptions may have been part of a surgical procedure and that they are aware that their study does not capture this data effectively.

I refuse to be alarmed.
 
2012-05-13 10:21:57 PM

JasonOfOrillia: Cyrusv10: JasonOfOrillia: How do you shrink lead?

/And is it a real plum bum?

I normally wiz past many of the comments on Fark, but yours was particularly bizarre and irrelevant. Can you please, umm, explain?

I read the headline as Lead, as in the metal, shrink, as in the action, instead of as leading psychologist. The chemical symbol for lead is Pb from the Latin word Plumbum.


I did the same the first time, and my first thought was the same as yours: how do you shrink lead?
 
2012-05-13 10:32:51 PM
At least they're getting rid of that Asperger's BSery. There's nothing special about you idiots. You're just socially awkward times 3.
 
2012-05-13 10:33:33 PM

cookiefleck: How are you people getting your meds? I mean, I can go and have gone to my doctors office and he won't even give me a gotdamn tylenol for a headache.. he'll tell me to knock it off. But you people are getting the good sh*t easy?


No, dude. To get the "good shiat" all I have to do is stop taking all my drugs. See, having a permanent residence in crazy land is very different from going slumming there.

But when you live there, you know that: a) the "good shiat" always has to be paid for with a bad crash when you run out of steam; b) however good the "high" was, it is rarely worth the crash; c) the cycle repeats and over the long term it is bad, bad, bad news; d) every single time you visit crazy land--whether you're slumming or going home for the holidays--it doesn't have to let you back out--ever.

People who go slumming crazy land think it's fun.

Permanent residents look at you guys and think you're goddamned farking fools to mess up a reasonably sane brain on purpose, you don't know how goddamned lucky you are, and you have no farking idea how hard the rest of us have to work to get a weekend pass out of this joint.

So no, we don't get the "good stuff" easy. We're working hard as hell, and the pdocs helping us, for a short-term pass out of crazy-land, and we're all hoping that if we can get out, we can overstay our visas and stay that way.
 
2012-05-13 10:39:45 PM

Occam's Disposable Razor: Julie Cochrane: Note that he's--as a doctor---equating treatment to pills and forgetting that there are non-pill treatments

Kind of a stretch. I know we were trained about everything from exercise to CBT to St. John's wort to just making time to talk the the patient all the way up to electroshock therapy (ECT - which is still used occasionally to this day and can be very effective for severe, refractory depression).
And that was just as a med student, psych residents learn quite a but more.

This idea that all doctors are just machines you feed symptoms into which then attempt to spit out the appropriate pill to dull the symptoms is downright silly. I'm not sure where it came from, but your physician should be doing a much better job than that.


What the hell planet are you from where that's NOT the case. Are you still a resident? Give it 10 years, we'll see if you still want to "make time to talk with patients".

The many many medical doctors I've encountered have been, for the most part, surprisingly unintelligent individuals with sever god complexes. The good ones were too jaded to give a shiat. Why bother caring when you make you're money whether or not you're a good doctor. The art listening is the most important ability for a doctor to possess, and it is completely lost.
 
2012-05-13 10:43:03 PM
Lol I really don't want to take any meds... it would make it harder to manipulate people
 
2012-05-13 10:46:00 PM
Ahh yes, Dr. Frances (the author of the op-ed), the Grand Old Dinosaur of psychiatry. This is the same guy who adamantly believes that homosexuality is a treatable "disease." Sorry but I take that man's opinions with a huge grain of salt. His is a dying breed and he knows it. That's not to say that the DSM-4 isn't chock full of BS diagnoses, but Frances is hardly the go-to guy for rational opinions on the matter.
 
2012-05-13 10:54:20 PM

cookiefleck: Lol I really don't want to take any meds... it would make it harder to manipulate people

 
2012-05-13 10:54:22 PM

Occam's Disposable Razor: Julie Cochrane: Note that he's--as a doctor---equating treatment to pills and forgetting that there are non-pill treatments

Kind of a stretch. I know we were trained about everything from exercise to CBT to St. John's wort to just making time to talk the the patient all the way up to electroshock therapy (ECT - which is still used occasionally to this day and can be very effective for severe, refractory depression).
And that was just as a med student, psych residents learn quite a but more.

This idea that all doctors are just machines you feed symptoms into which then attempt to spit out the appropriate pill to dull the symptoms is downright silly. I'm not sure where it came from, but your physician should be doing a much better job than that.


I know not all doctors are like that. I'm saying the doctor writing in TFA seemed to be doing that.

He didn't seem to be seeing a middle ground between sick and normal. There are a whole lot of people who go to therapists who have problems in living who simply need some help. It does help to have a code to put on the chart for the visit.

I'll use myself as an example, and pretend for a moment there was nothing else wrong with me. I have some of the features of BPD, but I don't meet the diagnostic criteria. I have had some of the history associated with people who come down with it, and some of the problems in living you get along with that. All at a subclinical level. But I was having a bunch of other problems that brought me in for treatment.

Anyway. Say I had come in because of frustration with the problems in living associated with the BPD symptoms/features. The way DSM V looks at the personality disorders, it makes it easier to sort that out, as well as sorting out that the problems are sub-clinical.

However, by identifying the areas the problems are in, and that one model of what goes on with BPDs are "skills deficits"---things they didn't learn in early childhood that they can learn as part of the DBT process---that gives the therapist some idea of therapeutic possibilities that may help.

That is, the therapist can look for the specific areas where there might be a skills deficit, look for specific behaviors to increase or decrease, look for specific skills that might help bridge that gap.

So that's an example where you might have a client who doesn't have that mental illness, but identifying the subclinical problem points towards a non-drug permanent treatment for that problem in living.

I suppose another way to put this is: Anybody can get an infected hangnail.
 
2012-05-13 10:55:42 PM
Blast. I had an image to go along with that, but it was thrown away, and i didn't do a preview.
 
2012-05-13 11:15:25 PM

GBmanNC: The many many medical doctors I've encountered have been, for the most part, surprisingly unintelligent individuals with sever god complexes.


You're going into your office visit with this attitude and expecting people not to notice or react to it?

I don't call a plumber and then look down my nose at him while he's at my home. I don't bring my car to a mechanic and think, "This guy thinks he's such a badass because he might know a little more about cars than me." I know these people know more about their work than I do, and I trust them to fix the problem I have presented them with. We're all just people trying to do our jobs...

Anyway, sorry a doc pissed in your cereal. We aren't all like that. And the bad ones most certainly do lose money in lawsuits or lost patients.
In the interest of full disclosure, I am still a resident. All that means is my schedule is busier than the attendings'. I still listen to patients, as do my co-workers. It's our job.
 
2012-05-13 11:19:58 PM

Kumana Wanalaia: As an Aberrant American, I say bring on the meds.

You don't want yours? Fine, more for me. NOM NOM NOM


encrypted-tbn0.google.com
 
2012-05-13 11:20:00 PM

Julie Cochrane: So that's an example where you might have a client who doesn't have that mental illness, but identifying the subclinical problem points towards a non-drug permanent treatment for that problem in living.


Gotcha.
I like this actually. Not everything needs a clinical diagnosis, and it's easy enough for me to suggest things to friends and family without documenting any visit or writing a script. The (non-psych) answer is frequently ibuprofen, a splint, weight loss, neosporin or something else equally cheap and easy. The problem lies in billing and coding. Once you're in the office for an official visit, you need something to put on the chart.
 
2012-05-13 11:26:59 PM

Julie Cochrane: Now, as a psychiatrist, he may have a problem with this approach, I don't know. As a psychiatrist, he's an MD, which means he looks at mental illness through the medical model, and not so much through the combined lens of medical issues combined with learned behaviors, cognitive components, and adaptive skills deficits.

Note that he's--as a doctor---equating treatment to pills and forgetting that there are non-pill treatments (like CBT for depression) that have a great research-substantiated track record for var ...

==========================================================

You pretty much hit the nail on the head right there. Psychiatrists are absolutely not the same as Psychologists. The former seem to be stuck in the idea that you can medicate everything away, but the latter actually use a broader (and often less invasive) approach to treat the whole person.
 
2012-05-13 11:33:42 PM

dahmers love zombie: On psychotropic medication. Infants. Less than one year old.

I cannot conceive of a single legitimate medical reason for this.



Epilepsy.
 
2012-05-13 11:50:49 PM

Kali-Yuga: PonceAlyosha: No, because for the vast majority of people it's not a delusion, just a socially enforced untrue idea.

de·lu·sion

3: Psychiatry a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact

Even the current DSM has a disclaimer after the diagnostic criteria of Delusional Disorder stating that religious belief is exempt even though it meets all the standards.

Like all mental illnesses, there is a spectrum representing a range of severity, comprising relatively "severe" mental disorders through to relatively "mild and nonclinical deficits".

You have your "high functioning" people which comprise the vast majority of believers, and you have the fundamentalists on the other end of the spectrum.


I would argue the majority is actually people that simply never put effort into learning. I hear the world is round, who am I to judge, so many people say it is, so eh, whatever. When I draw earth, I'll make it round. I'll pray to god, because I'm supposed to, I'll be nice because I'm supposed to.

Then there are a rather large, but not majority, group of people who would be resistant to a semi serious extent, but as you say are high functioning, these people can own up to reality but it takes a little more effort than the last group. Willfully ignorant maybe. Like ICP, they don't know how magnets work and don't want scientists to tell them the answers. They're addicted to the childlike euporia and wonderment that comes at contemplating the concept of god and heaven(or whatever religion / magic). Magic all up in this biatch. They're capable of doing science and don't feel threatened by it in general, just don't go on about it to tell them that their addiction isn't god, because, man, that totally ruins their high. Go be a buzzkill elsewhere. They don't want to listen, but if the euphoria can be found elsewhere, they may start to think about it, and move up a notch with proper motivation.(I was a religion hopper for this reason, I was told there was something, so when that something became...nothing special, I moved on...and then when I noticed a trend....and when I stopped to think about it, you can see why people would make all these different structures...power and control...not that it's alll that sinister, but it makes sense...ordinary credulity,)
This stage is escapable from a combination of age/wisdom/motivation in a number of combinations.

Then you've got a sizable portion that are unshakable. This area has 2 subgroups.
1. Serious Euphoria junkies. They'll kill people to score if they have to, incapable of wanting to give it up.
2. Your genuinely delusional people.

/or something like that
//lots of shades in the spectrum
 
2012-05-13 11:51:52 PM

Occam's Disposable Razor: GBmanNC: The many many medical doctors I've encountered have been, for the most part, surprisingly unintelligent individuals with sever god complexes.

You're going into your office visit with this attitude and expecting people not to notice or react to it?

I don't call a plumber and then look down my nose at him while he's at my home. I don't bring my car to a mechanic and think, "This guy thinks he's such a badass because he might know a little more about cars than me." I know these people know more about their work than I do, and I trust them to fix the problem I have presented them with. We're all just people trying to do our jobs...

Anyway, sorry a doc pissed in your cereal. We aren't all like that. And the bad ones most certainly do lose money in lawsuits or lost patients.
In the interest of full disclosure, I am still a resident. All that means is my schedule is busier than the attendings'. I still listen to patients, as do my co-workers. It's our job.


Occam's Disposable Razor: GBmanNC: The many many medical doctors I've encountered have been, for the most part, surprisingly unintelligent individuals with sever god complexes.

You're going into your office visit with this attitude and expecting people not to notice or react to it?

I don't call a plumber and then look down my nose at him while he's at my home. I don't bring my car to a mechanic and think, "This guy thinks he's such a badass because he might know a little more about cars than me." I know these people know more about their work than I do, and I trust them to fix the problem I have presented them with. We're all just people trying to do our jobs...

Anyway, sorry a doc pissed in your cereal. We aren't all like that. And the bad ones most certainly do lose money in lawsuits or lost patients.
In the interest of full disclosure, I am still a resident. All that means is my schedule is busier than the attendings'. I still listen to patients, as do my co-workers. It's our job.


A surprising lack of logic used my most doctors as well... Do you think I started with that attitude, or perhaps came to the conclusion over a period of years after personal experience? You're dismissing my personal experience, that's the start of the road to "hearing" your patients but not really "listening".

I'm sorry if I got all biatchy, you personally never did anything to me and I truly hope you go on to have a meaningful career. You're just a convenient punching bag for a frustrating problem.
 
2012-05-13 11:58:06 PM

PonceAlyosha: Religion was just what that guy brought up. To say "delusion" where anything is unverifiable/untrue is just stupidity.


I lost my train of thought in my last reply saw this and regained it.

Your deeply religious(my last category), will tend to defy real science. Evolution to health care. They flat out reject it, no matter their educational background, they'd rather cure their baby by letting it get bitten by a sacred amount of cobra's than take it to an evil hospitable. Certain creationists are this bad, and even some less literal religious sects, but just as vehement in not only distrust, but active disbelief in science.
 
2012-05-14 12:02:55 AM

GBmanNC: Do you think I started with that attitude, or perhaps came to the conclusion over a period of years after personal experience?


Is a white guy still a racist if he got mugged by a couple dozen black people and learned to hate all blacks?

Hint.
YES

It's entirely possible to have a long string of bad experiences that are not representative of the whole of that given experience.

That's why judging on personal anecdote only is always a bad idea.
 
2012-05-14 12:28:45 AM
Just wanted to say I love the phrase "diagnostic exuberance."

/College years go back to DSM-2
/Kudos to the author
/Glad someone in high places is saying this
 
2012-05-14 12:33:10 AM

omeganuepsilon: GBmanNC: Do you think I started with that attitude, or perhaps came to the conclusion over a period of years after personal experience?

Is a white guy still a racist if he got mugged by a couple dozen black people and learned to hate all blacks?

Hint.
YES

It's entirely possible to have a long string of bad experiences that are not representative of the whole of that given experience.

That's why judging on personal anecdote only is always a bad idea.


Well, tell the lab rat that there are plenty of rats in the wild that *don't* get an electric shock when they eat the cheese.

I'm sure that will convince it to keep trying to eat the cheese.
 
2012-05-14 12:35:47 AM
Interesting... the article never mentioned the hullabulu the DSM III-TR caused. I'd say the pendulum has swung the other way after all this time.
 
2012-05-14 12:38:39 AM

AliceBToklasLives: thatboyoverthere: AliceBToklasLives: Glenford: I used to work in an adolescent psychiatric unit. You know what Oppositional Defiance Disorder is? Adolescence. It has to be the biggest bullshiat diagnosis.

I was once told that pretty much everyone in prison has Antisocial Personality Disorder. This was said with a straight face by a mental health professional.

Antisocial Personalty Disorder is what Sociopaths and Psychopaths are. It's characterized by the fact that either you don't care if you hurt someone or actually go out of your way to do so. IE pretty much a lot of guys in prison. The guy might have been using hyperbole but he is right.

Sure - But (A) of course criminals are anti-social - that's why they are in prison; it's sort of like saying everyone who goes to Applebees has "Poor Taste Disorder"; (B) such a diagnosis is fine if it's used to treat people who are truly ill, but I worry that such a diagnosis may be used to mitigate the criminal's responsibility.

/sure "society" is part of the problem (there is a very strong poverty/crime correlation) - but so is the dude who blew away the 7-11 clerk to get $40


That's more of a problem with the criminal justice system, not the DSM. If we started holding individuals responsible for their actions instead of using mental illness as get-out-of-jail-free card than it wouldn't be a problem.
 
2012-05-14 12:39:27 AM

meddleRPI: Well, tell the lab rat that there are plenty of rats in the wild that *don't* get an electric shock when they eat the cheese.

I'm sure that will convince it to keep trying to eat the cheese.


Animals are allowed to be prejudice, it is a defense mechanism. Lab rats have no concept of logic, such as we do at any rate, it is beyond their very limited understanding(and yours apparently).

We humans are apparently trying to weed it out in the name of logic, if not "morals and ethics". Intellectual honesty requires the distinction.
 
2012-05-14 01:11:29 AM

dahmers love zombie: namegoeshere: As an Uninsured American, I am of course immune to all of these new psychiatric diagnoses.

It still scares the farking shiat out of me. For example: The report also found almost 4,000 foster and non-foster care infants - under a year old - on Medicaid in five states were taking psychotropic drugs. Researchers said the risks these drugs pose to children are "not well understood". Infants. Less than one year old. On psychotropic medication. Infants. Less than one year old.

I cannot conceive of a single legitimate medical reason for this.


Only thing I can think of is the drugs are being used to treat something else like how I take a medication for eliplicy to treat migranes
 
2012-05-14 01:12:48 AM
But weed is still bad right?
 
2012-05-14 01:13:09 AM
I just spent a few months helping someone study for the national and state psych licensing exams. We'd do flash cards, and when we'd go through assessments "What is the Luria-Nebraska? What is the WMS?" etc., I'd toss in "What is the Voight-Kampff?" and watch her struggle. It never got old.

/I didn't help her. Why didn't I help her?
//Would a replicant thinking it's human be experiencing a personalization episode?
 
2012-05-14 01:13:52 AM
I wrote a long treatise, but it was too sad for Fark. Psychiatry: ugg.
 
2012-05-14 01:18:22 AM
It's very simple/

Pharmaceutical companies make vast mountains of psychiatric medications. Insurance companies will not pay billions of dollars for said psychiatric medications without the diagnostic code that goes in the little box on the form. The APA makes up diagnoses and gives them codes so that the members of the APA can put the diagnostic codes in the little boxes on the forms and get paid money by the insurance companies. Then Roger keeps looking at me. In addition, the government also requires the diagnostic codes that go in the little boxes on the forms. Otherwise it will not pay the pharmaceutical companies for the psychiatric medications. This is obviously a never-ending psychopharmaceutical circle jerk of epic proportions, and it turns out that Tom Cruise wasn't wrong about everything, which we'll talk about next time because our fifty minutes are up.
 
2012-05-14 01:20:03 AM
I don't like the idea of infants being so medicated, but to be fair, if you look at what kinds of infants are in the foster care system, they're not statistically the same group of infants that you'd find outside of the foster system. These are babies born to drug addicted and alcoholic mothers, mothers who smoked, who did not have prenatal care. They have all kinds of birth defects and brain defects at a much higher rate than normal, they may be born addicted to whatever drugs their mothers were on and have severe physiological because of that, which require medication to keep them from having seizures. Also, young, single mothers are more likely to give up unhealthy children, children born with genetic conditions or other birth defects they feel they can't cope with, financially or otherwise.

Babies in the foster system are not healthy babies. People are always wanting to adopt healthy babies, if they aren't being snatched up right away it's usually because they aren't healthy, and it's something difficult, expensive or unpleasant to deal with.
 
Displayed 50 of 178 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report