ExperianScaresCthulhu: pecosdave: Here's an idea:

Anyone found holding up a "will work for food" sign, in ANY US city, gets tossed in a van and shipped out to do migrant work. Those who refuse to participate in the program get their sign holding privileges removed.

Make it against the law to refuse to hire someone because of a prior felony or because of prior drug use, at the same time... sure, why not. And add in all the tech folk and Masters degree holders who talk shiat about manual/blue collar laborers while holding out for jobs with benefits, yearly COLA increases and immediate advancement opportunities, as well, on that van trip. It has to be equal.

THIS! You beautiful bastard.

relcec: think of all those out of work black men in D.C. that could maybe get a decent paying job if illegal jose and ivan weren't here!

A partially self-sufficient black community in the DC region that felt empowered by having a decent paying job and cared about their communities!
It's a god damn nightmare!

You also have to train them to do the job as well because I hardly doubt that every unemployed black person is a contractor.

Real Women Drink Akvavit: Mrtraveler01: archichris: If you want the crops picked, you will have to cut off the higher pay for breathing which currently exists in the form of SSID, TANF, SNAP, HUD, etc.....

So you want disabled people out on the farm picking crops?

Well this sounds very reasonable.

/sarcasm

Oh! That would be fun to watch! I'd totally order the PPV of crazy people on SSDI/SSI fighting with tomatoes out in the fields.

"QUIT STARING AT ME!!! GRAAAARRRR!"
*attacks tomato plant*

Gotta admit, when you put it that way, it does sound pretty tempting.

jbuist: Thoguh: This right here. It's not that American's won't do the work. It's that they won't do the work for artificially low wages and allow you to ignore labor laws.

Average pay for those jobs in Alabama was $12/hr according to one of the many articles we've greenlit around here on the subject.

I find that unlikely... They only get about $8/hour in california.

Meanwhile the farms I do payroll for have Mexicans coming in on work visas to increase the workforce from 3 supervisors to 55 workers. Meanwhile, people sitting in the walk in temp assignment places within 30 miles of the farms tend to drink coffee and eat donuts all day instead of applying for jobs that sometimes net the workers 15 an hour, usually 8. Granted it's hard work sweating in the sun several hours a day.

(I am, speaking from the fact I sat in one of those temp places for a few months in between jobs. Except during Bush's time there were more temp assignments available Go figure)

maybe 10 -15. The farms we deal with actually supply fully air conditioned living quarters and free 3 meals a day.

Alabama farmers are too illiterate to fill out applications for H2B visas.

Mrtraveler01: Overall labor costs for projects could increase by almost 18%, and total project costs could rise almost 12% in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan region.

Good luck winning people over with that statistic.

I understand that you think that illegal immigrants are a big cause of unemployment and that if we got rid of all the (illegal) immigrants, everything would be sunshine and rose.

Which is incredibly simplistic IMO.

I mean it's fine that you want to get rid of all the illegal immigrants and it's an understandable point to make, but only a naive fool would think that it wouldn't come at a cost to the end consumer.

That and the question of if there are enough US citizens qualified to fill in the gaps in labor if illegal immigrants were gone.

You just make the immigration/labor issue way way too simplistic which is the absolute wrong way to treat issues like these.

/my two cents



supply and demand is an incredibly simplistic concept. you don't really think the math is all that simplistic just because I highlight only the important numbers, do you? anyway, these economists have just a little more expertise on the matter than you.

and if you want to know my opinion, I don't think you've ever given a f*ck about the working class or your fellow countrymen.

your progressiveness is simply an affectation that let's you demand others be more empathetic and endows you with a smug sense of superiority while conveniently carrying no duty whatsoever for you to improve the lives of your countrymen when you see the opportunity to do so.

there is a reason I'm in here banging these numbers in every immigration thread I see.
I want all americans to do well for themselves and this as close as a panacea to wealth distribution problems that exists in the realm of the possible.
there is a reason you are in here trying to devalue these proscriptions for a better America (made by eminent scholars like Economists like Borjas).
You are a fraud, and you don't really give a shiat about americans.
You are drawn to progressive causes simply because it appeals to the vainglorious.

I think you should call Borjas and tell him you think his mathematical calculations are to simplistic. here is his phone number.

Borjas: Our analysis suggests that a 10-percent immigrant-induced increase in the supply of a particular skill group reduced the black wage by 4.0 percent, lowered the employment rate of black men by 3.5 percentage points, and increased the incarceration rate of blacks by almost a full percentage point.


George J. Borjas
Business Address:
John F. Kennedy School of Government
Harvard University
79 John F. Kennedy Street
Cambridge, MA 02138
Telephone: (617) 495-1393
FAX: (617) 496-6920 or (617) 496-9053
E-mail: g­bo­r­ja­sdr­av­ra­hed­u
Web: http://www.borjas.com
Personal Data:
Born October 15, 1950
Married; three children
Education:
Ph.D. (Economics) 1975, Columbia University
M.Phil. (Economics) 1975, Columbia University
M.A. (Economics) 1974, Columbia University
B.S. (Economics-Mathematics) 1971, St. Peter's College
Honorary Degrees:
L.H.D. (Doctor of Humane Letters) 2003, St. Peter's College
Professional Experience:
2002- Robert W. Scrivner Professor of Economics and Social Policy,
Harvard University
1983- Research Associate, National Bureau of Economic Research
1995-2002 Pforzheimer Professor of Public Policy, Harvard University
1990-1995 Professor of Economics, University of California, San Diego
1988-1989 Visiting Scholar, Harvard University
1982-1990 Professor of Economics, University of California, Santa Barbara
1980-1982 Associate Professor of Economics, University of California, Santa Barbara
1978-1980 Assistant Professor of Economics, University of California, Santa Barbara
1977-1978 Post-Doctoral Fellow, Department of Economics, University of Chicago
1975-1977 Assistant Professor of Economics, Queens College of the City University
of New York
1972-1978 Senior Research Analyst, National Bureau of Economic Research

Page 2
Honors:
Fellow, Society of Labor Economists, elected in 2004.
Estrada Fellowship in Immigration Studies, 2000.
Fellow, Econometric Society, elected in 1998.
Listed in:
Who's Who in the World
Who's Who in America
Who's Who in Economics
Who's Who in Finance and Industry
Who's Who of Emerging Leaders in America
Who's Who in the West
Outstanding Young Men of America
Member, State of California, Governor Council of Economic Advisors, 1993-1998.
University of California Faculty Development Fellowship, Summer 1979.
National Institute of Mental Health Post-Doctoral Research Fellowship, University of Chicago,
1977-1978.
Editorial Boards:
Editor, Review of Economics and Statistics, 1998-Present
Editorial Board, International Migration Review, 1992-Present
Editorial Board, Quarterly Journal of Economics, 1992-1998
Editorial Board, Review of Economics and Statistics, 1997-1998
Other Professional Experience:
Member, Policy Board, Center for Immigration Studies, 2003-present.
Elected to Policy Council, Association for Public Policy Analysis and Management, 2000-2003.
Member, Program Committee, Association for Public Policy Analysis and Management, October
1998.
Consultant, The World Bank, 1998.
Senior Affiliate, Joint Center for Poverty Research, 1998-present.
Member, External Advisory Board, Joint Center for Poverty Research, 1998-present.
Chair, Committee of Visitors, National Science Foundation, Economics Program, 1996.
Co-Chair, Harvard Refugee Project, Institute for Social and Economic Policy in the Middle East,
John F. Kennedy School of Government, 1996-1998.
Member, Program Committee, 1996 Meetings of the American Economic Association
Member, Panel on Demographic and Economic Impacts of Immigration, National Academy of
Sciences, 1995-1997.
Member, Social Science and Population Study Section, National Institutes of Health, 1995-1997.
Committee of Visitors, National Science Foundation, Economics Program, 1992.
Member, Program Committee, 1993 North-American Winter Meetings of the Econometric
Society.
Faculty, Foundation for American Communications, 1991.
Economist, Unicon Research Corporation, 1983-1991.

Page 3
Other Professional Experience (Continued):
Member, American Economic Association, Committee on the Status of Minority Groups in the
Economics Profession, 1986-1992.
Member, Advisory Panel in Economics, National Science Foundation, 1988-1990.
Vice-Chairman, Department of Economics, University of California, Santa Barbara, 1984-1988.
Director of Graduate Program, Department of Economics, University of California, Santa
Barbara, 1984-1988.
Member, Panel on Immigration Statistics, National Academy of Sciences, 1983-1984.
Member, Advisory Panel, Social Science Research Council, National Commission for Research
on the 1980 Census, 1983-1985.
Visiting Fellow, Department of Economics, University of Warwick, England, Summer 1982.
Editorial Consultant, American Economic Review, 1977-1980.

relcec: ah, the true Social Darwinist emerges from his crypt.

Hardly.

Pointing out the hypocrisy of the right wing is not social darwinism.

People who complain about "socialism" while eagerly collecting their food stamps and medicare benefits are hypocrites.

People who complain about illegal immigrants who are taking jobs that they are too pampered and lazy to do are hypocrites.

If you get rid of the people who were willing to do the jobs that you are too lazy to do at wages that you think are beneath you, you get to suffer the consequences, and the rest of us are entitled to point and laugh and say "we told you so".

The entire ideology of conservatism is based on selfishness -- MY rights, MY benefits, ME ME ME ME ME, and fark anyone else who doesn't look or think or pray exactly the way that I do. All conservative policies boil down to "fark you, I've got mine". Well, guess what: You reap what you sew.

Since you're giving the finger to the rest of society, you've forfeit any claim you have for the rest of society to help you when you get hurt as a consequence of your own hatemongering ideology. Since you're so opposed to the idea of a social safety net for anyone else, you don't get to demand one when you need it. Everybody else gets to treat you how you've been treating them, especially while you're saying "help me" you're still saying "but fark everybody else" under your breath.

relcec:

There are an estimated 11 million illegal immigrants currently residing in the United States. Of this population, research shows that approximately 19% work in the construction industry, comprising around 14% of all construction workforces. The main objectives of this research are to (1) to predict possible effects of immigration and immigration reform legislation on worker wages and (2) to assess the likely wage increase due to decreased suppl ...

- when did the number go *down* officially?
- somebody is severely underestimating how many are in the workforce -- ask blacks who get turned away, and whites who only get hired as supervisors -- or are they only counting documented workers?

relcec: supply and demand is an incredibly simplistic concept. you don't really think the math is all that simplistic just because I highlight only the important numbers, do you? anyway, these economists have just a little more expertise on the matter than you.

Yes it is a simple concept. But there are many factors to consider because like I said, you have to train these workers to do the jobs you're asking them to do, and that's provided that they have enough education experience doing the job.

I mean it can be done, but it's not as easy as you're making it sound. Any sane economist realize that's it's a lot more complicated than you're making it sound.

relcec: and if you want to know my opinion, I don't think you've ever given a f*ck about the working class or your fellow countrymen.

your progressiveness is simply an affectation that let's you demand others be more empathetic and endows you with a smug sense of superiority while conveniently carrying no duty whatsoever for you to improve the lives of your countrymen when you see the opportunity to do so.

there is a reason I'm in here banging these numbers in every immigration thread I see.
I want all americans to do well for themselves and this as close as a panacea to wealth distribution problems that exists in the realm of the possible.
there is a reason you are in here trying to devalue these proscriptions for a better America (made by eminent scholars like Economists like Borjas).
You are a fraud, and you don't really give a shiat about americans.
You are drawn to progressive causes simply because it appeals to the vainglorious.

And so you're result to ad hominem attacks when I claim skepticism of your opinons of labor. That'll really convince me you're right.

relcec: Borjas: Our analysis suggests that a 10-percent immigrant-induced increase in the supply of a particular skill group reduced the black wage by 4.0 percent, lowered the employment rate of black men by 3.5 percentage points, and increased the incarceration rate of blacks by almost a full percentage point.

And that has nothing to do with the questions I asked.

No where did he address whether or not these unemployed black people have the skillet required to do the jobs that immigrants currently do. Obviously you can train them, but that comes at a cost as well.

Excuse me for being realistic.

Here's an article to summarize my concerns for your simplistic plan/wordview of how labor works:

Link

clyph: ranchguy: I am gonna say 100% of the farkers here if offered $50/hr to do this job would not last 2 weeks.

$50/hr? You're right, I probably wouldn't last 2 weeks... because that's how long it would take me to land something a lot more.

You're very lucky. I'm not one of those who could -- and the majority of Americans are like me, not you. So I'm 'IN' like Flynn on that deal, in spite of it being seasonal.

Mrtraveler01: relcec: I know, it would be devastating. construction companies in the DC area would have to raise wages paid to Americans by 70% in affected job categories to make up the difference and entice enough workers!
OH THE HUMANITY! LIVING WAGES FOR AMERICANS!

There are an estimated 11 million illegal immigrants currently residing in the United States. Of this population, research shows that approximately 19% work in the construction industry, comprising around 14% of all construction workforces. The main objectives of this research are to (1) to predict possible effects of immigration and immigration reform legislation on worker wages and (2) to assess the likely wage increase due to decreased supply of immigrant labor. In the Washington, D.C. metropolitan region, the construction workforces for low-skilled trades such as concrete, masonry, drywall, painting, flooring, and roofing are comprised of approximately 55% illegal immigrant. Based on four factors evaluated in this research (1) prevailing wage provision in legislation; (2) forced tax compliance of the workforce; (3) market correction from currently depressed wages due to immigrant penetration into the workforce; and (4) a labor shortage resulting from a depleted supply of immigrant labor, proposed legislation could increase the cost of trade labor up to almost 70% in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area. Overall labor costs for projects could increase by almost 18%, and total project costs could rise almost 12% in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan region.

Good luck winning people over with that statistic.

I understand that you think that illegal immigrants are a big cause of unemployment and that if we got rid of all the (illegal) immigrants, everything would be sunshine and rose.

Which is incredibly simplistic IMO.

I mean it's fine that you want to get rid of all the illegal immigrants and it's an understandable point to make, but only a naive fool would think that it wouldn't come at a cost to the end co ...

.
.
I bet your great grandfather said something similar when the Republicans proposed ending slavery.

david_gaithersburg: Mrtraveler01: relcec: I know, it would be devastating. construction companies in the DC area would have to raise wages paid to Americans by 70% in affected job categories to make up the difference and entice enough workers!
OH THE HUMANITY! LIVING WAGES FOR AMERICANS!

There are an estimated 11 million illegal immigrants currently residing in the United States. Of this population, research shows that approximately 19% work in the construction industry, comprising around 14% of all construction workforces. The main objectives of this research are to (1) to predict possible effects of immigration and immigration reform legislation on worker wages and (2) to assess the likely wage increase due to decreased supply of immigrant labor. In the Washington, D.C. metropolitan region, the construction workforces for low-skilled trades such as concrete, masonry, drywall, painting, flooring, and roofing are comprised of approximately 55% illegal immigrant. Based on four factors evaluated in this research (1) prevailing wage provision in legislation; (2) forced tax compliance of the workforce; (3) market correction from currently depressed wages due to immigrant penetration into the workforce; and (4) a labor shortage resulting from a depleted supply of immigrant labor, proposed legislation could increase the cost of trade labor up to almost 70% in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area. Overall labor costs for projects could increase by almost 18%, and total project costs could rise almost 12% in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan region.

Good luck winning people over with that statistic.

I understand that you think that illegal immigrants are a big cause of unemployment and that if we got rid of all the (illegal) immigrants, everything would be sunshine and rose.

Which is incredibly simplistic IMO.

I mean it's fine that you want to get rid of all the illegal immigrants and it's an understandable point to make, but only a naive fool would think that it wouldn't come at a cost ...

I don't think our family was here during that time.

Mrtraveler01: I mean it's fine that you want to get rid of all the illegal immigrants and it's an understandable point to make, but only a naive fool would think that it wouldn't come at a cost to the end consumer.


you know what is pretty interesting, in this context you'll argue that decreased labor costs lowers product costs (which it does to some extent), but in every other context you would be arguing that the 1%er will just pocket the profit if his his labor costs are reduced. and you're a naive fool if you think getting rid of illegal labor would translate in debilitating increases in consumer prices.
you are not an honest man.
and I don't give a f*ck if I have to pay $3,000 more on a $350,000 house because it will mean my fellow Americans can earn a decent living.
and that's supposed to be your position too, ya asshole.



http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003265139_imprices1 9. html
Low-paid illegal work force has little impact on prices
More than 7 million illegal immigrants work in the United States. They build houses, pick crops, slaughter cattle, stitch clothes, mow lawns...
By Drew DeSilver

More than 7 million illegal immigrants work in the United States. They build houses, pick crops, slaughter cattle, stitch clothes, mow lawns, clean hotel rooms, cook restaurant meals and wash the dishes that come back.

You might assume that the plentiful supply of low-wage illegal workers would translate into significantly lower prices for the goods and services they produce. In fact, their impact on consumer prices - call it the "illegal-worker discount" - is surprisingly small.

The bag of Washington state apples you bought last weekend? Probably a few cents cheaper than it otherwise would have been, economists estimate. That steak dinner at a downtown restaurant? Maybe a buck off. Your new house in Subdivision Estates? Hard to say, but perhaps a few thousand dollars less expensive.

The underlying reason, economists say, is that for most goods the labor - whether legal or illegal, native- or foreign-born - represents only a sliver of the retail price.

Consider those apples - Washington's signature contribution to the American food basket.

At a local QFC, Red Delicious apples go for about 99 cents a pound. Of that, only about 7 cents represents the cost of labor, said Tom Schotzko, a recently retired extension economist at Washington State University. The rest represents the grower's other expenses, warehousing and shipping fees, and the retailer's markup.

And that's for one of the most labor-intensive crops in the state: It takes 150 to 190 hours of labor to grow and harvest an acre of apples, Schotzko said, compared to four hours for an acre of potatoes and 1 ½ hours for an acre of wheat.

The labor-intensive nature of many crops is a key reason agriculture continues to rely on illegal workers. A report by Jeffrey Passel, a demographer at the Pew Hispanic Center who has long studied immigration trends, estimates that 247,000 illegal immigrants were employed as "miscellaneous agricultural workers" last year - only 3.4 percent of the nation's 7.2 million illegal workers, according to Pew statistics, but 29 percent of all workers in that job category.

GriffXX: BeatrixK: This kills me when my tea bagger friends start ragging on about illegals in this country: OK, first of all, the agricultural industry, like it or not, kinda depends on illegals willing to do the fieldwork for less than optimum wages.

Oh, you want to keep cheap produce while keeping these bottom rung ag jobs out of the hands of illegals: Great! However, the 'Job Creator" ag folks don't have to pay the insurance, higher wages, etc., when they pay these undocumented workers wages equivalent to change found in couch cushions. So...they get to pass the tremendous cost savings gleaned from taking advantage of illegal labor onto the consumer. You want all your ag workers documented, guess what: You can kiss cheaper produce buh bye.

So, the moral of the story is that we've created a beast with the ag community in that it feeds off of migratory/undocumented workers. I'm not advocating one position or the other, but I am saying in that we've created an economic ecosystem that depends on an element we don't want to admit we secretly love.

And it's not just the ag workers. Think about how many undocumented workers are in the service industries as well. If there was a magic button to deport every undocumented worker instantly, this country would come to a screeching halt.

Because the magic button doesn't account for the rest of the developing world not giving a fk and operating like Zuckerberg's Jewish Brazilian friend Eduardo Severin? and America can only compete with those profits and 'growth' by racing down to the lowest common denominator?

/i'd really love to see more undocumented workers flooding the white collar industries
//it's the only way to truly fix this crap

relcec: you know what is pretty interesting, in this context you'll argue that decreased labor costs lowers product costs (which it does to some extent), but in every other context you would be arguing that the 1%er will just pocket the profit if his his labor costs are reduced. and you're a naive fool if you think getting rid of illegal labor would translate in debilitating increases in consumer prices.
you are not an honest man.
and I don't give a f*ck if I have to pay $3,000 more on a $350,000 house because it will mean my fellow Americans can earn a decent living.
and that's supposed to be your position too, ya asshole.

I don't think it'd be debilitating either. I think it'd go up but it won't be anything too dramatic. I think the customer would be able to adapt to the change in cost.

relcec: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003265139_imprices1 9. html
Low-paid illegal work force has little impact on prices
More than 7 million illegal immigrants work in the United States. They build houses, pick crops, slaughter cattle, stitch clothes, mow lawns...
By Drew DeSilver

More than 7 million illegal immigrants work in the United States. They build houses, pick crops, slaughter cattle, stitch clothes, mow lawns, clean hotel rooms, cook restaurant meals and wash the dishes that come back.

You might assume that the plentiful supply of low-wage illegal workers would translate into significantly lower prices for the goods and services they produce. In fact, their impact on consumer prices - call it the "illegal-worker discount" - is surprisingly small.

The bag of Washington state apples you bought last weekend? Probably a few cents cheaper than it otherwise would have been, economists estimate. That steak dinner at a downtown restaurant? Maybe a buck off. Your new house in Subdivision Estates? Hard to say, but perhaps a few thousand dollars less expensive.

The underlying reason, economists say, is that for most goods the labor - whether legal or illegal, native- or foreign-born - represents only a sliver of the retail price.

Consider those apples - Washington's signature contribution to the American food basket.

At a local QFC, Red Delicious apples go for about 99 cents a pound. Of that, only about 7 cents represents the cost of labor, said Tom Schotzko, a recently retired extension economist at Washington State University. The rest represents the grower's other expenses, warehousing and shipping fees, and the retailer's markup.

And that's for one of the most labor-intensive crops in the state: It takes 150 to 190 hours of labor to grow and harvest an acre of apples, Schotzko said, compared to four hours for an acre of potatoes and 1 ½ hours for an acre of wheat.

The labor-intensive nature of many crops is a key reason agriculture continues t ...

I've seen these same studies and I can't argue with them. Like I said, cost will obviously go up (no one can argue that) but like I said before, it won't be anything too dramatic for the consumer overall.

Mrtraveler01:


No where did he address whether or not these unemployed black people have the skillet required to do the jobs that immigrants currently do. Obviously you can train them, but that comes at a cost as well.

Excuse me for being realistic.

Here's an article to summarize my concerns for your simplistic plan/wordview of how labor works:

Link

U.S. manufacturing sees shortage of skilled factory workers

what in the f*ck are you proposing?

we're all mistaken? the illegal aliens aren't the ones who are Americas machinists, not the lawn care, roofing, dry wall hanging, concrete pouring, basic manufacturing work, cooking, and cleaning in this country?

the illegal aliens are really the people who are helping to alleviate the shortage of highly skilled manufacturing labor in this country!

you are completely dishonest. your dissembling has gone from pathetic to ridiculous. if you aren't even willing to approach this honestly, traveler, you can go f*ck yourself traveler. you're ignored.

relcec: and I don't give a f*ck if I have to pay $3,000 more on a $350,000 house because it will mean my fellow Americans can earn a decent living.

This. One of the few things I agree with relcec on.
The economies of scale in so many industries are farking ridiculous. To give every Wal-Mart employee $12/hr would cost consumers 45 CENTS extra per visit. To bring every job manufacturing iPads back to the US and give every worker $50K per year to slap them together would add $13 to the price of an iPad. The price increased are trivial, and yet we'd rather let some CEO or investor pocket the difference between a good American wage and slave Chinese wages.

Sergeant Grumbles: relcec: and I don't give a f*ck if I have to pay $3,000 more on a $350,000 house because it will mean my fellow Americans can earn a decent living.

This. One of the few things I agree with relcec on.
The economies of scale in so many industries are farking ridiculous. To give every Wal-Mart employee $12/hr would cost consumers 45 CENTS extra per visit. To bring every job manufacturing iPads back to the US and give every worker $50K per year to slap them together would add $13 to the price of an iPad. The price increased are trivial, and yet we'd rather let some CEO or investor pocket the difference between a good American wage and slave Chinese wages.

That's capitalism at work.

relcec: you are completely dishonest. your dissembling has gone from pathetic to ridiculous. if you aren't even willing to approach this honestly, traveler, you can go f*ck yourself traveler. you're ignored.

Wow, was my reasoning that bad guys?

/Asking farkers as a whole, not the one who obviously ignored me

He who h'yuks last h'yuks best.

I know there will be marginally increased consumer costs associated with paying Americans what Americans demand to do shiat jobs, but we are already paying for these costs in other ways.

We pay for these costs that are created by lowering our own citizens wages through massive immigration with the Earned Income Tax Credit, Food Stamps, Unemployment Insurance, Food Banks, Charity Healthcare, Medicaid, the children's health insurance program (chip), job training programs, section 8 housing, obamacare stipends, etc.

There are no free lunches in the aggregate. The only people getting free lunches from massive liberal immigration are the Democratic party and the 1%ers who use the lowered bargaining power of our fellow citizens to decrease wages and costs, and increase profits.

I want to pay our citizens more on the front end. A decent wage for a shiat job. A hard days work and fair compensation that they can feel proud of. an increase in self esteem, self respect, and respect for others and their communities that comes from earning your keep in society rather than scraping by on the government dole that government inattention to immigration partly made necessary.

And if you disagree with these concepts and proscriptions for a better, more fair America, you never really were a progressive at all.

Sergeant Grumbles: relcec: and I don't give a f*ck if I have to pay $3,000 more on a $350,000 house because it will mean my fellow Americans can earn a decent living.

This. One of the few things I agree with relcec on.
The economies of scale in so many industries are farking ridiculous. To give every Wal-Mart employee $12/hr would cost consumers 45 CENTS extra per visit. To bring every job manufacturing iPads back to the US and give every worker $50K per year to slap them together would add $13 to the price of an iPad. The price increased are trivial, and yet we'd rather let some CEO or investor pocket the difference between a good American wage and slave Chinese wages.

I'm certainly down with incentives and restrictions that make outsourcing as painful to u.s. companies as it is to American citizens.

relcec: I want to pay our citizens more on the front end. A decent wage for a shiat job. A hard days work and fair compensation that they can feel proud of. an increase in self esteem, self respect, and respect for others and their communities that comes from earning your keep in society rather than scraping by on the government dole that government inattention to immigration partly made necessary.

And if you disagree with these concepts and proscriptions for a better, more fair America, you never really were a progressive at all.

I don't see anything wrong with that either. I'm just saying it's not as easy as you'd think.

BeerGraduate: Oh for the love of humanity, let them take all of our jobs.

What jobs?

scalpod: BeerGraduate: Oh for the love of humanity, let them take all of our jobs.

What jobs?

You know, EEEYAR JEEERRRRBZZ!1!

relcec: The only people getting free lunches from massive liberal immigration are the Democratic party and the 1%ers who use the lowered bargaining power of our fellow citizens to decrease wages and costs, and increase profits.

And the kids the illegal immigrants bring over and enroll in public school.

ExperianScaresCthulhu: You're very lucky. I'm not one of those who could -- and the majority of Americans are like me, not you. So I'm 'IN' like Flynn on that deal, in spite of it being seasonal.

It's not luck that lets me command the wage that I command, it's hard work, lots of experience, and a bit of natural ability. The only part of it that is 'luck' is having being born smarter than the average bear. That intelligence let me master skills that other people have difficulty mastering, and to apply those skills to solve problems that people will pay to have solved.

RoyFokker'sGhost: jbuist: Thoguh: This right here. It's not that American's won't do the work. It's that they won't do the work for artificially low wages and allow you to ignore labor laws.

Average pay for those jobs in Alabama was $12/hr according to one of the many articles we've greenlit around here on the subject.

[i3.kym-cdn.com image 562x437]

You're new to the world of migrant labor, aren't you?

Growing up in California's central valley, here's how the system works. Basically, since you're hiring illegal, undocumented workers, you can tell the government you're paying your workers whatever the Hell you want to tell them. There's no paper trial in terms of taxes. You have a couple of legal workers on the payroll, of course, but most of the migrant workers are hired as day labor. Day labor and 'independent contractors' don't have to be listed on a payroll, just the amount paid. If you claim, say $40,000 a year in payroll for farm workers who are 'contractors' and can be paid in cash, you can claim you've paid 4 people $10,000 each when you really paid 40 people $1,000 each. In the meantime, the few documented workers you have bump your hourly wage numbers and can be pointed to as 'proof'.

This is how the game is played. And it's why meaningful immigration reform will never actually happen. Democrats play to the migrant worker base, farm owners are mainly Republicans and don't want to lose the cheap labor. Alabama just let their derp overrule the facts of how the ag business works these days, and they're gonna play the price in lost crops. And Monsatto will eventually swoop in and buy up all those troubled farms for pennies on the dollar.

Well, other than the misspell and the Dems playing to the migrant worker base not really being that high on the list of priorities although it does happen, THIS.

Did some election work in farm country. We dropped some Spanish language lit at the one Latin market in the area, and had one open meeting with a translator present, but that was about it. Maybe it's different in California, but not too many of the workers could vote. Plenty of their kids did attend the local community college, though, so the focus was more on education anyway.

The farmers ranting and raving and head-nodding to the Republican talking points on Fox at the diner but who STFU on the drop of the dime when immigration came up... oh, Real America memories...

/do miss the fresh farm stand peaches and plums for lunch, though

Thoguh: Man On A Mission: It's almost as if Americans won't work back-breaking labor for minimum wage or less. If your business plan depends of half-price labor, you need a new business plan. Blaming your own failure on an immigration law is ignoring your own problems.

This right here. It's not that American's won't do the work. It's that they won't do the work for artificially low wages and allow you to ignore labor laws.

SO MUCH THIS. If I were in their shoes, you'd damn well bet I wouldn't do that job without a real wage or labor protections. Wrecking your body is Not Fun, and you do in fact need material compensation or you're going to have done it for nothing.

titwrench: Hasn't anyone ever seen Cool Hand Luke? There are shiat tons of nonviolent prisoners that could do the work for pennies on the dollar just for the privilege of being outside for a few hours a day. We could offset the cost of housing and feeding them with the wages they earn in the fields. DUH.

Our local jail has an extensive horticulture and agriculture program. Much of the food consumed in the jail is grown by the inmates, and decorative plants are sold every year helping to recoup the costs of the program. So...costs of feeding incarcerated inmates are drastically reduced, and the inmates working the programs have marketable job skills when released. What's not to love?

OK, OK, I'll do it.
For 60k a year, full benefits, a COLA, a Pension, Housing and Transportation provided.

/I'll pick the CRAP out of that cotton
//OR Big Ag bites the bullet and automates the process like the rest of the 1st world...
///HAHAHAHAHAHA

Thoguh: Man On A Mission: It's almost as if Americans won't work back-breaking labor for minimum wage or less. If your business plan depends of half-price labor, you need a new business plan. Blaming your own failure on an immigration law is ignoring your own problems.

This right here. It's not that American's won't do the work. It's that they won't do the work for artificially low wages and allow you to ignore labor laws.

The left will tolerate near slavery conditions in the hope for future votes.

farkreader007: If only there was another group of people who live in the deep south who have a history of agriculture harvesting.

Oh you

As long as we get the mexicans OUT of the country I don't care if we do it this way or with an M16 as they are crossing the boarder, just keep em OUT.

NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: titwrench: Hasn't anyone ever seen Cool Hand Luke? There are shiat tons of nonviolent prisoners that could do the work for pennies on the dollar just for the privilege of being outside for a few hours a day. We could offset the cost of housing and feeding them with the wages they earn in the fields. DUH.

Our local jail has an extensive horticulture and agriculture program. Much of the food consumed in the jail is grown by the inmates, and decorative plants are sold every year helping to recoup the costs of the program. So...costs of feeding incarcerated inmates are drastically reduced, and the inmates working the programs have marketable job skills when released. What's not to love?

"Prison labor costs apple growers three times
what they paid experienced pickers, about $22
an hour for each inmate. That includes on-site
security, travel and camps for the week. "
From last year

Nemo's Brother: The left will tolerate near slavery conditions in the hope for future votes.


To be fair a lot of it is also about present votes. Pandering to Latinos and playing the racism card. There are also a lot of blended families, mixed of illegals and citizens. A very large number of citizens of Mexican ancestry have relatives who are illegally in the U.S..

BunkyBrewman: The unintended consequence is that we are going to be importing more produce from South of the Border.

No. Not *that* South of the Border:
[www.sciway.net image 500x375]

That must be an old picture....there are cars in the parking lots.

Man On A Mission: DrewCurtisJr: A very large number of citizens of Mexican ancestry have relatives who are illegally in the U.S..

Citation needed

/ (cough) bullshiat (cough)

Right, because mass media hasn't cultivated in peoples minds that there is an overabundance of illegal workers who are seemingly encouraged to steal jobs from the otherwise would-be contributors to society a.k.a. the unemployed.

I would say things are working exactly as intended. Less illegals in the country at the expense of crop output may not be ideal but its a better situation than having tons of crops but tons of illegals as well. Not that I am about to take a job picking lettuce but at least now maybe the wages will rise to reflect the actual value of the work since farmers can no longer pay illegals a fraction of minimum wage. If that happens you just might have real Mericans taking those jobs in a few years.

cwolf20: Meanwhile the farms I do payroll for have Mexicans coming in on work visas to increase the workforce from 3 supervisors to 55 workers. Meanwhile, people sitting in the walk in temp assignment places within 30 miles of the farms tend to drink coffee and eat donuts all day instead of applying for jobs that sometimes net the workers 15 an hour, usually 8. Granted it's hard work sweating in the sun several hours a day.

(I am, speaking from the fact I sat in one of those temp places for a few months in between jobs. Except during Bush's time there were more temp assignments available Go figure)

But that's different. That's legal migrant labor making a decent wage and working and living in OSHA approved conditions.

The thing that most of us object to is that illegal immigrants are given terrible pay and horrible working conditions, and their employers are avoiding taxes.