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(Psychology Today)   The Hostile: Telltale signs: High, sometimes explosive, reactivity. Frequently disagreeable. Cynical. Mistrustful. Does not like to be wrong. Where you'll find them: Corner offices, the Internet   (psychologytoday.com) divider line 80
    More: Amusing, corner offices, Hothouse at Home  
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5968 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 May 2012 at 9:14 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-13 09:19:55 AM
Someone likes colons and periods. Must be a woman subby.
 
2012-05-13 09:20:52 AM
Someone's been hanging out in the politics tab...
 
2012-05-13 09:22:30 AM
Hey. I don't have a corner office.
 
2012-05-13 09:24:08 AM
There's a guy at work. If you don't agree with him, he repeats himself. Further disagreement is accompanied with increased volume to the point of yelling. We don't work with him, we work around him. It's easier to pacify him and do whatever he wants than it is to do anything else.
 
2012-05-13 09:24:42 AM
Way:to;use!punctuation?Subby#
 
2012-05-13 09:30:55 AM
'Can't you just move on and give me my prescription?'

"No. I wont be writing you a refill and I'll thank you to take your business elsewhere."

Problem solved.
 
2012-05-13 09:31:33 AM
sssshhh..she's sleeping right next to me

/it is Sunday
 
2012-05-13 09:32:34 AM
You know how you deal with these kinds of people? You ignore them completely and say and do whatever you want to anyway. But in your normal tone of voice. They'll start yelling louder and will start looking insane.. at which point you can justify your behaviour by saying: "see what I mean? That person was clearly insane!"
 
2012-05-13 09:32:35 AM
FTA: Their MO is to provoke, then make you feel you have no reason to react-and it's all your fault to begin with! Feeling deeply discounted, even totally powerless, while having to jettison the original aim of an interaction is a distressing double whammy of social life-and a cardinal sign you're dealing with a difficult person. No, it's not you. It's them. And it's the emotional equivalent of being mowed down by a hit-and-run driver.

This is one of the tell-tale signs you're dealing with someone who has narcissistic personality disorder. They invalidate your perceptions and your feelings and often try to pretend you're misremembering or making things up (called "gaslighting"). Here's some better advice, especially for men who may be in an abusive relationship.
 
2012-05-13 09:36:21 AM
Self-identifying MRAs are my favorite MRAs.
 
2012-05-13 09:37:46 AM
People suck. Get over it, or get 20 cats already.
 
2012-05-13 09:38:57 AM
FTA"You may not demean me in front of my staff or others"-and instruct the bully, succinctly, on how you wish to be treated. "I need you to support me in the presence of others. Any issues you have with my work we can discuss civilly in private."

Possible things you will get out of this when giving this bit to your boss, if he's one of those people.

"You need me to do nothing. You need to get back to work."
"May not? You may not tell me what to do."
"You can always work somewhere else."
 
2012-05-13 09:39:06 AM

Lady Beryl Ersatz-Wendigo: Self-identifying MRAs are my favorite MRAs.


What the fark are you talking about?
 
2012-05-13 09:41:12 AM
Headline: Sucks: Ass.
 
2012-05-13 09:42:10 AM
Where can I get some of those tiny women in a jar?

/ Half a dozen oughta' be enough.
 
2012-05-13 09:42:24 AM
My mom used to say that you know you're dealing with a passive-aggressive individual when you constantly find yourself fighting down the urge to choke the living shiat out of someone...but you can't say exactly why. So that's my rule of thumb.
 
2012-05-13 09:42:28 AM

Honest Bender: 'Can't you just move on and give me my prescription?'

"No. I wont be writing you a refill and I'll thank you to take your business elsewhere."

Problem solved.


Bingo.
 
2012-05-13 09:43:28 AM
fragMasterFlash: People suck.

Nuff said.
 
2012-05-13 09:44:46 AM
more like refuses to be wrong
 
2012-05-13 09:45:36 AM
cookiefleckYou know how you deal with these kinds of people? You ignore them completely and say and do whatever you want to anyway. But in your normal tone of voice. They'll start yelling louder and will start looking insane.. at which point you can justify your behaviour by saying: "see what I mean? That person was clearly insane!"

Exactly my method. Also, I'm in a business where I can pick and choose what I want to do, whom I want to deal with. I can blow anyone off if I want. My BP is just fine.
 
2012-05-13 09:48:29 AM

Honest Bender: 'Can't you just move on and give me my prescription?'

"No. I wont be writing you a refill and I'll thank you to take your business elsewhere."

Problem solved.


Ok then, I'm suing you for discrimination and humiliation. $10 million, or I'll settle for $500,000.
 
2012-05-13 09:53:44 AM

Lost Thought 00: Honest Bender: 'Can't you just move on and give me my prescription?'

"No. I wont be writing you a refill and I'll thank you to take your business elsewhere."

Problem solved.

Ok then, I'm suing you for discrimination and humiliation. $10 million, or I'll settle for $500,000.



That's where you point to the sign that reads " we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" that you stole from the gas station
 
2012-05-13 09:55:39 AM
Well, it was fine, I guess, for him to stick labels in the article on different kinds of difficult people and suggest ways of dealing with them, but it would have been more honest and more effective to just go ahead and admit that many of the difficult people "types" closely resembled diagnostic profiles in the DSM IV and other diagnostic terms.

So in addition to his suggestions, you can get more and better information on dealing with "hostile" types by looking up information on how to deal with people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Sociopaths (as described by Hare and Stout, distinct from APD in DSM IV) --- "Hostile" seems to bridge both a bit.

His "Rejection Sensitive" people are pretty much a textbook description of Borderline Personality Disorder.

His "Neurotic" people would be folks with depression or anxiety-based problems.

His Egoists would be Narcissists or people with OCPD.

(I don't think he's really classified the Histrionics anywhere, or not very well.)

Anyway, the reason it would be useful to have diagnostic match-ups is because there's a lot of literature out there on managing, coping with, or dealing with people who have those various problems.

Although, with sociopaths and most of the time with narcissists, the best coping strategy is usually the Miyagi defense of "no be there." Leave.
 
2012-05-13 10:00:55 AM

Lost Thought 00: Honest Bender: 'Can't you just move on and give me my prescription?'

"No. I wont be writing you a refill and I'll thank you to take your business elsewhere."

Problem solved.

Ok then, I'm suing you for discrimination and humiliation. $10 million, or I'll settle for $500,000.


No, it's easier. A physician has the legal right to choose his patients. You write her the refill, and then the next day you have your office assistant send her a letter discharging her from your practice. Over and done. She's no longer your patient.
 
2012-05-13 10:03:57 AM
In a way, the fact they feel the need to behave this way is histrionic, they've learned " if i do this.. I get that" like "if I "a", then "b" happens"
 
2012-05-13 10:05:36 AM
For me it was Highschool and I would, but my wife would be pissed.
 
2012-05-13 10:06:10 AM

Julie Cochrane: Although, with sociopaths and most of the time with narcissists, the best coping strategy is usually the Miyagi defense of "no be there." Leave.


I believe very strongly in getting yourself away from difficult people, and giving them a giant wedgie the second before you depart so they can have something to stew about for months.

You have to do it in that order though, because crazy people will destroy your life if given half a chance.
 
2012-05-13 10:06:28 AM

casual disregard: There's a guy at work. If you don't agree with him, he repeats himself. Further disagreement is accompanied with increased volume to the point of yelling. We don't work with him, we work around him. It's easier to pacify him and do whatever he wants than it is to do anything else.


Sounds like his approach is working.
 
2012-05-13 10:08:03 AM

Julie Cochrane: No, it's easier. A physician has the legal right to choose his patients. You write her the refill, and then the next day you have your office assistant send her a letter discharging her from your practice. Over and done. She's no longer your patient.


Then you phone the cops and tell them your prescription pad is missing a note after meeting with the problem patient.

/Problem solved
//Justice served
 
2012-05-13 10:10:34 AM
The Hostile: Telltale signs: High,

Actually, I don't think the hostile are all that high.
 
2012-05-13 10:12:22 AM
when somebody pulls the passive aggressive card on me i directly confront them on it immediately if the present company is all in house folks. they don't pull that shiat on me after that.
 
2012-05-13 10:12:44 AM
Leave. Leave leave leave.

There is no correcting this behavior. Emotional Herpes is there for Forever. No matter how much you break them with logic, with example, they're so freaking nuts there will be no change.

Lived with a Sociopathic Narcissist for four years as a roomate. It came down to fists one night; knocked him on the floor. The next day, it was like nothing ever happened. Seriously.

If they're breaking dishes in the sink to make an emotional point, if they're screaming when they don't get their way, you're farked.

Leave.
 
2012-05-13 10:14:26 AM
"Manipulation comes in many forms: There are whiners. There are bullies. There are the short-fused. Not to forget the highly judgmental. Or the out-and-out sociopath. But they often have one thing in common: Their MO is to provoke, then make you feel you have no reason to react-and it's all your fault to begin with! "



You mean like Democrats?

/Link
 
2012-05-13 10:16:18 AM

tomWright: "Manipulation comes in many forms: There are whiners. There are bullies. There are the short-fused. Not to forget the highly judgmental. Or the out-and-out sociopath. But they often have one thing in common: Their MO is to provoke, then make you feel you have no reason to react-and it's all your fault to begin with! "



You mean like Democrats?

/Link


Lol or political trolls
 
F42
2012-05-13 10:18:47 AM
Does not like to be wrong.

You mean "does not like to be shown they're wrong"?

Because that's very common. What's very rare is people who don't like to be wrong, we appreciate being informed so that we can stop being wrong.
 
2012-05-13 10:24:34 AM

tomWright: You mean like Democrats?


Your troll gets an F for Ffort
 
2012-05-13 10:26:22 AM

Znuh: Lived with a Sociopathic Narcissist for four years as a roomate. It came down to fists one night; knocked him on the floor. The next day, it was like nothing ever happened. Seriously.


You didn't hit him hard enough if he could get back up.
 
2012-05-13 10:37:46 AM

fragMasterFlash: People suck. Get over it, or get 20 cats already.


Exactly! That entire article was an exercise in over-analysis and blame.
 
2012-05-13 10:56:36 AM
The last bit of the article deserves an Obvious tag: Just don't use alcohol as your distraction of choice. It will only make you more likely to say or do something that will set you up as a target or make you feel bad later.
 
2012-05-13 10:58:56 AM

F42: What's very rare is people who don't like to be wrong, we appreciate being informed so that we can stop being wrong.


It is sad that those types are rare... they are the best kind of human.
 
2012-05-13 11:07:31 AM
The article writer gives some pretty bad advice on dealing with a bully boss. If you have a bully boss, you really need to develop an understanding of bullies before you try to change anything. Bullies are always playing a chess game. They may be bad at chess or good at chess, but it's always a chess game, and you are a piece on the board.

When you first realize your boss is a bully and decide to do something about it, you've basically just realized there is a chess game, the boss is a player, you are a piece, and you've decided to enter the game. Before you enter the game and move yourself as a piece, you need to know how your boss sees that game board, and how he sees you as a piece on that board.

If your boss sees you as easily replaceable and readily disposable, you have no bargaining room unless you can increase his perception of your utility to him. If your boss sees you as a threat to be eliminated, or somebody else's piece on the board, or a piece he'd like to acquire, or a useful piece he'd like to keep where it is, or a piece that's useful only so long as it stays where it is---all of that affects how your boss is going to react to your asking him to change anything about how he interacts with you.

Or, if your boss sees you as useful as a game piece because you're a fun toy to play with. Which is usually a bad thing. But not always.

Learn what N/S's are like and how they view the world, and adjust it to your boss in particular, before you go and talk to him. Understand the interaction from the narcissist/sociopath's point of view and game it out before you go in and talk to your boss.

Understand that your boss the bully is not a fellow Human being, he's a Martian (narcissist/sociopath). His brain doesn't think like yours. Make sure you've put yourself in his shoes, thought it through from several angles, and then really, really listen to him as you go so you can make sure you're still following how the Martian is viewing the chess board and you on it as a chess piece.

And recognize that Martians are very impulse-driven. He could fire you, or he could decide he really likes you and you must be a Martian, too--or close enough, and that you might just make an okay ally. If he decides you're a Martian, too, then you're in for an interesting ride.


Pro tip: Sociopaths and narcissists frequently like puns. Odd little quirk. They're also perpetually bored. If you tend to make them laugh, their hostility towards you goes down. The problem is having them like you is often worse than having them ignore you.


Most psychiatrically normal people get in trouble dealing with narcissists and sociopaths when they "anthropomorphise" the narcissist/sociopath. I'm serious as a heart attack about that. In Martha Stout's "The Sociopath Next Door" she talks about how sociopaths hide among "normal" people again and again, all the time, because normal people will notice all these things that are red flags and then they'll say, "But I don't think he's a sociopath." Except he is.

It's the same with narcissists. The thing about the two--which are combined under the same personality disorder heading in DSM V--is that the trait of "empathy" is flat out broken. Sometimes it's a matter of degree, there are shades of gray, but in all cases it's enough that they can do awful stuff and they just don't feel bad about it.

And no matter how much psychiatrically normal people think they can get their heads around that, evidence shows they just can't grasp that these other bipedal primates walking around who look just like people could shoot a five year old kid that was blocking the sidewalk and not feel anything but disgust at the yucky mess on the ground. Except, yeah, well, it was a waste of resources--society probably already had a lot of time and care invested in that kid. Maybe it had even started school. And its parents were going to lose time off work now, and yeah, so it was probably a bad thing....

It kind of helps if you try to think of them as another species and try to remember not to anthropomorphise, and try to remember just to look at them on their own terms. Not so much as good or evil, but as different.

It's patronizing to say so, but emotionally sociopaths aren't all that different from healthy chimpanzees. They bond within their immediate troop and with their kids and mates and hunting partners. Chimpanzees outside their troop they will band up and hunt quite viciously. Sometimes. But within their troop, their immediate "people," they're opportunistic sexually but fairly loyal about not killing each other. Behavior stays more or less within certain norms.

I mean, you wouldn't expect human sociopaths/narcissists to look exactly like healthy chimpanzees, but it may reflect an earlier alpha norm for us. Dunno.

Anyway. I'd advise anyone planning to confront a bully boss by some manner other than handing in notice to prepare for the encounter carefully before engaging.
 
2012-05-13 11:14:42 AM
James F Campbell
This is one of the tell-tale signs you're dealing with someone who has narcissistic personality disorder. They invalidate your perceptions and your feelings and often try to pretend you're misremembering or making things up (called "gaslighting"). Here's some better advice, especially for men who may be in an abusive relationship.

Where was that three years ago?

My most recent ex was the first two (and possibly 4 as well), and the one before her was #3.

/current is None Of The Above, and amazingly awesome
 
2012-05-13 11:30:55 AM
I just fully read the link James posted.

Holy.

Fark.

I've been on the receiving end of all of those. Why did it take me so goddamn long to get out? Twice?
 
2012-05-13 11:43:06 AM

cookiefleck: In a way, the fact they feel the need to behave this way is histrionic, they've learned " if i do this.. I get that" like "if I "a", then "b" happens"


Or, they're crazy farks and crazy farks have to work to put food on the table and have a roof over their heads just like anybody else.

And I say this with all tenderness and compassion as one of the (medicated, treated) crazy farks in the world who tries to get along in the world and tries as much as possible (with mixed results) to keep my problems from becoming other people's problems.

Truly. Sometimes bad behavior isn't that someone learned something maladaptive to the rest of life that worked in a warped environment.

Sometimes it's that they got a bad knock to the head a few days before getting splattered with their best friend's liver, spleen, intestines, and lunch when an IED blew outside the gym. --- (Always has a "what if" catastrophe for how an idea could go wrong. Rains on everyone's parade.)

Sometimes it's that they got a nasty set of genes and their mom died in a car wreck while their dad was deployed and Grandma was in hospital and they ended up in the foster care system for two months, until Dad came home no legs. (Hostile. Bully. Ended up intolerant of "excuses," humiliates subordinates in public. "That" boss.)

The gal whose dad died in Iraq, Grandma is bipolar, Mom is fine. Gal starts cutting at 16. Undergoes treatment. I diagnosed BPD and bipolar. Is in treatment and medicated. Is the rejection-sensitive type of difficult. When you explain missing her as a cc on the email was an accident, not a slight, she apologizes, "Oh, okay, sorry, sorry, I'm too sensitive, sorry." You're not sure she believes you, but she does appear to be trying not to be overly sensitive. You tentatively mention something to the boss. He tells you it's already being handled through the Employee Assistance Program and that you dealt with the incident pretty well.

The bipolar/BPD gal? She had bad genes, she had a traumatic triggering event. Sometimes brain chemistry precedes maladaptive thoughts. Sometimes the chicken comes before the egg. Of course, the chicken then lays eggs that hatch out more chickens that grow up to lay still more eggs.

The heredity versus environment argument has been going on in psychology since before psychology even existed as a science. It's been going on long enough for the "heredity" folks to accumulate case studies of people with some pretty well documented bad genes who grew up in some pretty darned ideal environments. And long enough for the "environment" folks to accumulate case studies of people with some pretty well documented fantastic genes who grew up in some pretty crappy environments. And of course the other way, with people who turned out great despite bad genes or a bad environment.

What finally came out of all the debate was diathesis-stress theory: the theory that for mental illness to occur it generally took a genetic predisposition in the individual towards the illness plus a sufficient stress in the person's environment to trigger that predisposition.

Of course, as we go on, it becomes more complicated. It becomes a question of how much predisposition someone has versus how much resilience they have, genetically, added with how much stressor or damage they have environmentally acquired towards mental illness versus how much resilience or healing they may have environmentally acquired.

And that just counts all damage and healing as equal, not making any distinction as to what kinds of damage to what abilities or parts of the brain.

Fantastically complicated stuff, behavior.
 
2012-05-13 12:04:14 PM

Bondith: I just fully read the link James posted.

Holy.

Fark.

I've been on the receiving end of all of those. Why did it take me so goddamn long to get out? Twice?


Because they're all so very good at convincing you that you are crazy, that you are the problem, that you are upset over nothing.

They're very good at undermining your social supports and your connections and your ability to leave. They're very good at putting you in untenable situations where you can't leave right now because....

They're very good at making the situation a bear trap where you essentially have to be willing to cut off your leg to get out of the trap---and then betting you won't do it.

The only real way to get out of the trap is to prove them wrong by cutting your losses and walking away, because the longer you stay, the deeper in you get. It's like a bear trap that starts out grabbing your toe and bit by bit it climbs your foot, and then your leg. The longer you stay, the higher up you have to amputate to get out. It doesn't climb into the body proper, once it gets to high amputation, a new clamp starts on another limb.

Guess how I know?

I walked.

I'm still paying the price, and I will be for a long damn time. I'll probably never completely recover financially. Dunno about mentally and emotionally. And a lot of it I did to myself--the common denominator in my dysfunctional relationships being me. But I'm no longer getting eaten by bear traps.

And what I'd say to you is that the common denominator in your dysfunctional relationships is you. I had another one of those motherfarkers try to latch onto me in February. We tend to get involved with them because they actively seek people like us out--it's not just simple bad luck or bad taste.

However, I've been working very, very had to correct a lot of my own bad behaviors in relationships that was my side of the dysfunctions. Which meant when this dude in February started to pull his bullshiat, I didn't take the bait. Which led to him throwing a tantrum hissy fit a few days later and dumping me. Guess what? I win.

I only really saw the red flags in retrospect. At the time I was uneasy, but I was wary of dumping guys that were perfectly okay just because once upon a time some other guy hurt me. I'll spare you the details--the breakup fight made it obvious I'd had a lucky escape.

So I guess what I'd suggest is make sure you work on whatever about you makes you easy prey for these chicks. If you don't take the bait, from the very start, they will dump you. And then you win.
 
2012-05-13 12:07:58 PM
keenetrial.com

Charlie Sheen - I don'y pay them for sex. I pay them to go away.
 
2012-05-13 12:32:29 PM

fluffy2097: Znuh: Lived with a Sociopathic Narcissist for four years as a roomate. It came down to fists one night; knocked him on the floor. The next day, it was like nothing ever happened. Seriously.

You didn't hit him hard enough if he could get back up.


The only way you can deal with one of these guys is on a transactional basis, and only if you have the guy's respect. Knocking him on the floor was a good move, but it was probably too late.

Besides, roommate is too close unless you're actually another sociopath/narcissist.

Respect means they have to know you see them for what they are, you will honor the deal, you expect them to honor the deal, it's a straight up deal and that's all it is--a transaction--and that if they screw you over, you will fark them the hell up, by any means necessary, and that you will make it your number one mission in life until it is done. And that you understand, of course, that the same holds true on their side. Of course.

They have to actually believe you will. I guess it's a little easier to have that "cred" (screw me and I'll fark you up) if they know you're not just certifiable, you're certified. [grin]

I don't have problems conversing with them, or socializing or whatnot. But I keep transactions and such very specific and finite, and I watch my back. Which also tends to maintain mutual respect.

I wouldn't room with one. At some point in that roommate relationship, I would end up prey. No thanks.

And that's the point. When interacting with a sociopath/narcissist, you always have to be careful to maintain his awareness that you are not lunch. You may look like lunch, you may smell like lunch, but you will smack the holy living shiat out of him, immediately and hard as all fark, if he tries to eat you.

The well socialized ones, being results oriented people with a code including a sense of respect for a deal, can be better to deal with than normal humans, if you keep all that in mind.

See also: shark, lawyer, businessman, politician, player
 
2012-05-13 12:46:40 PM
www.baseball-bats.net
I've found one of these works wonders.
 
2012-05-13 01:02:05 PM
Julie Cochrane
So I guess what I'd suggest is make sure you work on whatever about you makes you easy prey for these chicks. If you don't take the bait, from the very start, they will dump you. And then you win.

Actually, they'd dump me on a weekly basis, and then yell at me for not trying to win them back.

I went in to the second one a little more warier. There were times when it seemed like she was trying to make a go of it, but she was just too profoundly farked up to be in a normal relationship. Also, she owed me money and I was hoping to get paid back (which is probably the absolute worst reason to stay, in hindsight).

Still, like I mentioned before, the current girlfriend is amazing, and I think I appreciate her more because I've seen the dark end of the dating pool.
 
2012-05-13 01:35:11 PM

tomWright: You mean like Democrats?


If you can't manage to do any better than that, just... stop. Seriously, you're terrible at this.
 
2012-05-13 01:40:43 PM
Looks at headline, thinks "That`s a woman"

reads article, thinks "yup"

women, this is mostly how you treat guys, I know to you it seems like all the things you do are rational and you have good reasons but just like men have had to learn, your actions are abuse. To a man in the 40s, 50s, or 60s, there were actions that seemed right, the way of things and simply a mans due which were wrong and have since been called abuse. Sexual equality means holding yourselves up to the same ethical measuring stick and trust me, a lot of you will find yourselves lacking. You may say "I`m not like that" and you might not be but women mostly are.
 
2012-05-13 01:59:44 PM

Bondith: I just fully read the link James posted.

Holy.

Fark.

I've been on the receiving end of all of those. Why did it take me so goddamn long to get out? Twice?


Chances are you're attracted to people like that. Both my mother and father have narcissistic personality disorder, and the most recent woman that I've been attracted to (and found herself attracted to me) violated all sorts of boundaries only a few days after we first met and revealed that her own family was abusive and (quite possibly) narcissistic as well.

But because I've learned the signs, I was able not to get involved. And I gently persuaded her into seeing a therapist to help her deal with her own crazy family. She's now realized that there is indeed a problem and is trying to leave her family.

Because that's the only way to deal with narcissists or psychopaths: leave. Even if they're family -- especially if they're family -- you leave.
 
2012-05-13 02:16:25 PM

James F. Campbell: Bondith: I just fully read the link James posted.

Holy.

Fark.

I've been on the receiving end of all of those. Why did it take me so goddamn long to get out? Twice?

Chances are you're attracted to people like that. Both my mother and father have narcissistic personality disorder, and the most recent woman that I've been attracted to (and found herself attracted to me) violated all sorts of boundaries only a few days after we first met and revealed that her own family was abusive and (quite possibly) narcissistic as well.

But because I've learned the signs, I was able not to get involved. And I gently persuaded her into seeing a therapist to help her deal with her own crazy family. She's now realized that there is indeed a problem and is trying to leave her family.

Because that's the only way to deal with narcissists or psychopaths: leave. Even if they're family -- especially if they're family -- you leave.


Glad you persuaded her into therapy and had the wisdom to let that fish swim on by. Sorry you had to.

I hope the next one you meet is an awesomely cool girl with a healthy set of boundaries who you can really connect with.
 
2012-05-13 02:19:52 PM
SHADDUP YOU! I'M SICK AND TIRED OF IDIOTS WHO BATHE IN THE TREACLE OF THEIR FEIGNED SWEETNESS AND LIGHT!
 
2012-05-13 02:38:02 PM

scalpod: SHADDUP YOU! I'M SICK AND TIRED OF IDIOTS WHO BATHE IN THE TREACLE OF THEIR FEIGNED SWEETNESS AND LIGHT!


Marvin the Martian, I presume?
 
2012-05-13 02:39:17 PM
Ah, a topic about bel4sucks.

James F. Campbell: Even if they're family -- especially if they're family -- you leave.


This. Many off-kilter people have been victimizing family for years, maybe with both parties really unaware of what's going on. The assholish brother in law you'd rather not hang around, but put up with for appearances?
(my case) He and his sub-wife eventually came into their own reality about how we've treated them all through the years(how we're abusive and hated them), claimed we were involved in creating previous marriages, etc etc.
We got lucky and they moved off. (some small part of it was, they were moving first, and created a fight to sidestep some of the pain from separation, but I've experienced and seen that, it's usually a lot more simple than the following).

I have a question for one with an actual education in psychology, given this brief-ish scenerio(and the above pair) what was the actual problem of these people?(Ie doesn't sound like narcissism, but is there a simple word for it?) I don't know, maybe it's just a combination of 10 little problems and they arranged just right to cause a big blowout. (Though it wasn't the only blowout, and happened with each family member alternatively, like it was musical chairs, who are we going to hate next? no one knows)

They had a tendency to not socialize much outside of family, and when I got out of the service I spent some time with them on occasion(the actual change was an accident my sister got in while I was in the service, she was fine before that as I recall, or at least the problem worsened over that 6 years), their habit was to sit around and tell stories. I noticed the stories would slowly change over time, as a random example.

Oddly enough, though the guy was an asshole, he more or less coddled my sister, so she's the one I'm asking about, he bought in, sure, but the real crazy was from her).

Event:
Jayne spilled her drink when the firecracker went off and some splashed on Janet when it rebounded from the patio.
*A month later*
Jayne spilled her drink on Janet when the fireworks went off.
*
Jayne supposedly spilled her drink and acted scared
*
Jayne stalked over in a huff and threw her drink in Janet's face because Jayne's husband lit the fireworks, was fine when everyone else was lighting things. She had it in for them ever since.....blah blah blah

They would sit around and dwell on an event making it more than it was, always victimizing themselves and end up really Believing it

I can't think of it just as mis-remembering an event or a false perception, and it's not really simple paranoia. It was always delivered as a "pity party" story. A lot of seeking sympathy/pity from my sister in those later years. In the past, she was always correcting her husband, telling him to stop picking(the guy was always picking in a overbearing way) on the kids or whoever, and then suddenly, "He's never done that, how dare you accuse him!" when someone finally had enough and started avoiding them, that's when the blowout happened.

Whatever it was, it boggles the mind. Glad they moved away.
 
2012-05-13 02:41:27 PM
creating previous marriage breakups
*

Pardon if it's otherwise confusing, just kind of wining it and summing up. Disregard if it's jsut too much to sort through.
 
2012-05-13 02:42:12 PM

omeganuepsilon: wining it


winging it

/goddamnitsomuch
 
2012-05-13 02:57:08 PM

scalpod: SHADDUP YOU! I'M SICK AND TIRED OF IDIOTS WHO BATHE IN THE TREACLE OF THEIR FEIGNED SWEETNESS AND LIGHT!


That was cruel of me. I'm sorry.

[sigh]

It's not feigned. But explaining empathy is like trying to explain blue to a blind man. I could explain electromagnetic radiation and then tell you the frequency range of light that the human eye perceives as "blue," but then I'd have to explain "visible light" and convince you that other people's human eyes were different from yours and actually did perceive this range of electromagnetic radiation called "visible light."

And not get you to shrug it off in irritation a few sentences into the explanation as a bunch of mumbo-jumbo nonsense.

And even if you listened all the way through and believed me, you'd still only get the barest technical grasp of what "blue" is---and nothing about the subjective experience of "blue."

Empathy:

The positive slate of emotions are all as good as or better than sex, a good steak, chocolate, a good massage, winning a race, riding a roller coaster, ice cream.

Empathy is that "sense" that lets people detect and mirror what others are feeling that helps share and magnify the positive emotions back and forth between and among them over and over---this is why most other people don't have that huge problem with boredom.

It also reflects back when other people feel bad, or is predictive of when something you're thinking about doing might make other people feel bad (conscience)--which not only makes you feel bad after you do bad things, it usually stops you before you more than fleetingly think about doing them.

That's how other people know the unwritten rules that always leave someone with broken empathy screwing up and in trouble and saying, "How the hell was I supposed to know that?"

Well, everybody else "just knew" to do or not do whatever it was because they "just knew" it would make or not make someone else feel bad or feel good.

It's like how someone who can see doesn't trip on the scattered toys in the front yard when they walk across it. They step over them because they can see them.

If you can't see them, you trip and fall all over the place, and of course you're left asking, "How the hell was I supposed to know?"

The tragedy of it all is, most of the people around you genuinely don't understand that you're blind and just can't see the toys to step over them.
 
2012-05-13 03:12:45 PM

omeganuepsilon: They had a tendency to not socialize much outside of family, and when I got out of the service I spent some time with them on occasion(the actual change was an accident my sister got in while I was in the service, she was fine before that as I recall, or at least the problem worsened over that 6 years), their habit was to sit around and tell stories. I noticed the stories would slowly change over time, as a random example.


I'm not a clinician, and I can't diagnose over the internet, but I do have a psychology degree and background, so I'll put on my scientific wild-assed guess (SWAG) hat and tell you what I think as best I can:

You mention your sister had an accident. My guess is that she may have suffered a traumatic brain injury (TBI) that caused her symptoms. That would explain why her symptoms don't precisely fit in with any particular disorder.

People's memories aren't very good to begin with. Everyone's memories change over time. We remember things and when we remember them we add or leave out details and those changes we make become part of how we remember the event the next time we call up the memory. The more times we call up a memory and retell it over time, the more it changes.

That's why it's a good idea for important stuff to write it down when it happens. You'll still have all the problems with eyewitness testimony, but at least you don't have as much drift over time.

So yeah, the injury could have made her memory more vulnerable, could have made personality changes like the ones you saw (the self-pity, suspicion, drama).

And it sounds like the husband was a major league enabler--it may have been all he knew how to do in a frightening situation with a sick wife.

Anyway, that's my best guess.
 
2012-05-13 03:38:57 PM

Julie Cochrane: omeganuepsilon: They had a tendency to not socialize much outside of family, and when I got out of the service I spent some time with them on occasion(the actual change was an accident my sister got in while I was in the service, she was fine before that as I recall, or at least the problem worsened over that 6 years), their habit was to sit around and tell stories. I noticed the stories would slowly change over time, as a random example.

I'm not a clinician, and I can't diagnose over the internet, but I do have a psychology degree and background, so I'll put on my scientific wild-assed guess (SWAG) hat and tell you what I think as best I can:

You mention your sister had an accident. My guess is that she may have suffered a traumatic brain injury (TBI) that caused her symptoms. That would explain why her symptoms don't precisely fit in with any particular disorder.

/BS in Psychology

People's memories aren't very good to begin with. Everyone's memories change over time. We remember things and when we remember them we add or leave out details and those changes we make become part of how we remember the event the next time we call up the memory. The more times we call up a memory and retell it over time, the more it changes.

That's why it's a good idea for important stuff to write it down when it happens. You'll still have all the problems with eyewitness testimony, but at least you don't have as much drift over time.

So yeah, the injury could have made her memory more vulnerable, could have made personality changes like the ones you saw (the self-pity, suspicion, drama).

And it sounds like the husband was a major league enabler--it may have been all he knew how to do in a frightening situation with a sick wife.

Anyway, that's my best guess.


I agree.

More importantly, I propose that we procreate.

I do not want to have sex with you. I definitely don't want to marry you. I merely wish to combine my gametes with yours. Let's face it, you are highly educated but more importantly, highly gened. Likewise, I can tell you for a fact that everybody in my bloodline has lived a long life and has been burdened by few diseases. Our only shared problem is our awful short-sightedness; anything more than five inches from my face is blurry.

Our offspring will be magnificent. And neither of us will have to do any work, MENSA will take over once the kids are able to eat.

What do you say? We get to improve our species, we don't take any special effort on our own, and life continues as normal. It's the real deal.
 
2012-05-13 03:46:46 PM

casual disregard: I agree.

More importantly, I propose that we procreate.

I do not want to have sex with you. I definitely don't want to marry you. I merely wish to combine my gametes with yours. Let's face it, you are highly educated but more importantly, highly gened. Likewise, I can tell you for a fact that everybody in my bloodline has lived a long life and has been burdened by few diseases. Our only shared problem is our awful short-sightedness; anything more than five inches from my face is blurry.

Our offspring will be magnificent. And neither of us will have to do any work, MENSA will take over once the kids are able to eat.

What do you say? We get to improve our species, we don't take any special effort on our own, and life continues as normal. It's the real deal.


Ah, alas, I must confess, my genes carry teh crazy, and my ova are past their sell-by date. But best of luck in your continuing search, and thank you for your consideration.
 
2012-05-13 03:54:57 PM

Julie Cochrane: casual disregard: I agree.

More importantly, I propose that we procreate.

I do not want to have sex with you. I definitely don't want to marry you. I merely wish to combine my gametes with yours. Let's face it, you are highly educated but more importantly, highly gened. Likewise, I can tell you for a fact that everybody in my bloodline has lived a long life and has been burdened by few diseases. Our only shared problem is our awful short-sightedness; anything more than five inches from my face is blurry.

Our offspring will be magnificent. And neither of us will have to do any work, MENSA will take over once the kids are able to eat.

What do you say? We get to improve our species, we don't take any special effort on our own, and life continues as normal. It's the real deal.

Ah, alas, I must confess, my genes carry teh crazy, and my ova are past their sell-by date. But best of luck in your continuing search, and thank you for your consideration.


This is the first time that I have been rejected on the netzone for the purpose of procreation. It's also the first time I attempted such a thing, so I suppose that is that. I feel like I should keep trying, maybe set up a website. "You get to make my babies, and I provide nothing!" It might work??
 
2012-05-13 03:58:41 PM
People like this will tear you down and destroy you if they get close enough to you. And more importantly, as others have said, they probably wont even realize that they are doing it. It's not like it's a deliberate act, more a result of their dysfunction. So yeah, the best option really is just to get away.

I've been stuck with several family members for many years now who exhibit the signs of some pretty nasty disorders (possible sociopathic/narcissistic behaviour). It's taking everything I've got just to keep from letting them make me feel like I'm the one to blame when they dump their problems on me.

And yeah, the other problem you've got is you kinda go native after a while and start behaving like them too. I'm well aware that I also exhibit these signs.

/If you can, run for you life
 
2012-05-13 04:06:09 PM

Julie Cochrane: enabler


Great term.

Her kids were awesome(young twenties) when I got out of the service. "Shut up mom you're being crazy".. then do something cute. Perfect deflection, certainly not enablers. Too bad only her kids were able to do that without causing a problem(she was a real mother hen and her kids could do no wrong, anyone's kids really).

Julie Cochrane: My guess is that she may have suffered a traumatic brain injury (TBI) that caused her symptoms. That would explain why her symptoms don't precisely fit in with any particular disorder.


That's kind of what I had figured, but I was hoping, for the sake of discussion, there was something in there that would be an easy descriptor, some theme I may have been missing, or some classification that I just couldn't see.

Thanks for looking anyhow.

Julie Cochrane: The more times we call up a memory and retell it over time, the more it changes.


I don't necessarily agree. Obviously there are memory tricks to do it so that you remember things well, it's all a matter of how you do it. Not necessarily easy to change habits in how you think though.

Basically I'm natural tech-geek. An extensive psychology education was cost prohibitive, but fascinating, so I pick it up where I can.(and wade through the philosophy of it that muddies waters[have a thing against philosophy as a whole unit]). Psychology has got potential as a real science(I still call it a science rather than a philosophy), but it's too young to really reliable. It's biology a few hundred years ago, imo.

Julie Cochrane: scientific wild-assed guess (SWAG) hat


Awesome.

People look in my profile a lot because I argue on the internet(shocker, right?). When they try to call my "Dr." into question, I say things like "I'm not a doctor but I play on on tv", or reverse it.

Credentials are worthless on fark. Demonstration is what's convincing.
 
2012-05-13 04:52:16 PM
WHAT PART OF SHADDUP DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND BESIDES ALL OF IT? ;)
 
2012-05-13 05:10:38 PM

scalpod: WHAT PART OF SHADDUP DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND BESIDES ALL OF IT? ;)


See, that's too gentle.

Really, it is.

Hearing things like, 'The Cable guy's here, and he's deliciously insecure' was the norm.

In every case, it was very much eat or be eaten. Like Julie stated. You'd show them that hey, being eaten wasn't an option and you'd be pals, until the next blowup happened and then the eyes would swivel back on you.

It gets old, and tiring. I used to equate it to living near a reactor with no shielding. The whole effing house would change emotionally when said roomie would walk through the door.

When he finally rushed me one night and pinned his forehead against mine, spraying spittle on my face, screaming I DEMAND EQUITY over a $20 cable bill, that was it. I waited til he took the first swing, then knocked him on the floor.

The thing was, there was no huge revelation. The clouds didn't part in his mind with his levels of unholy assholeness dawning. It was, well, that didn't work. Repeat.

It's the stupidest, dumbest thing ever. Like farking clockwork automatons set in 'suck' mode forever.

Leave.
 
2012-05-13 06:28:46 PM

Znuh: The thing was, there was no huge revelation. The clouds didn't part in his mind with his levels of unholy assholeness dawning. It was, well, that didn't work. Repeat.


If you hit him hard enough his jaw requires wiring shut and he can only eat liquid food for a few months, he might learn something.

If you want to physically fight with a crazy person and win, you need to be willing to tell them to get down on the ground and bite the curb, and make them seriously believe you are 100% willing to end their existence. It doesn't have to be true, but they need to believe it is.

All you proved by hitting him only once is that you aren't willing to finish a fight.

Unfortunately. Either you get out, or you prove to them you are crazier then they are. I don't think you were at all wrong to just get out.
 
2012-05-13 07:30:13 PM
If you hit him hard enough his jaw requires wiring shut and he can only eat liquid food for a few months, he might learn something.

Nah. People like that never learn. In his mind he was totally in the right and his roomie just like, ATTACKED him out of nowhere. Like Znuh said, leaving is the only option. If they were capable of learning they would have already.

I seem to attract these type of people. I am getting better at spotting them though.
 
2012-05-13 07:52:16 PM

ecor1: If you hit him hard enough his jaw requires wiring shut and he can only eat liquid food for a few months, he might learn something.

Nah. People like that never learn. In his mind he was totally in the right and his roomie just like, ATTACKED him out of nowhere. Like Znuh said, leaving is the only option. If they were capable of learning they would have already.

I seem to attract these type of people. I am getting better at spotting them though.


Are you sure it's not you then? My greatest fear whenever I read this sort of thing is that I am one of those people.
 
2012-05-13 08:10:06 PM

PonceAlyosha: ecor1: If you hit him hard enough his jaw requires wiring shut and he can only eat liquid food for a few months, he might learn something.

Nah. People like that never learn. In his mind he was totally in the right and his roomie just like, ATTACKED him out of nowhere. Like Znuh said, leaving is the only option. If they were capable of learning they would have already.

I seem to attract these type of people. I am getting better at spotting them though.

Are you sure it's not you then? My greatest fear whenever I read this sort of thing is that I am one of those people.


lol

No, that's perfectly normal paranoia. Everyone in the universe gets that.
/hitchhikers

Some sadists / narcissists do seek mousier attitudes to bond with so they can be worshiped or dominate. If you're easy going, laid back, that counts, it's mousy in comparison.

Which are you?

"That group is cool and fun, hope I fit in! " or "That group is cool and fun, I bet I can get them to like me!"

And the important follow up.
And in what way do you handle it not working out?

/rhetorical
//takes some self honesty, not always easy
///hint, if your opinion of those freakish losers changes, you might have asshole issues
 
2012-05-13 08:10:19 PM

PonceAlyosha: Are you sure it's not you then? My greatest fear whenever I read this sort of thing is that I am one of those people.


I generally find the sanest people are those who are worried about being crazy and ask the question "am I behaving like a crazy person?" frequently.

The fact that you are considering that it could be your fault shows you are not a narcissist, and your ability to empathize with others and not wanting to be an asshole to them shows you aren't sociopathic.

I mean, people who ask "am I being crazy" may still be crazy, but they KNOW when they're being crazy and deal with it appropriately. Someone who just thinks everyone else is the problem are the really crazy people.
 
2012-05-13 09:03:08 PM

PonceAlyosha:

Are you sure it's not you then? My greatest fear whenever I read this sort of thing is that I am one of those people.


I used to wonder that, and then at some point I decided that they were the crazy people and I was the sane one. There was a period of about 5 years or so where I went from one psycho boss to another, and then eventually I ended up with a sane one and I realized I wasn't the problem. One boss I had in particular was a gaslighting bizznatch, and it took a former grad student of hers to tell me that I wasn't imagining it and she really was doing the things I thought she was doing for me to realize what was going on.

At some point it seemed like I was causing a problem simply for existing and I had to step back and say, that is really not a reasonable attitude for someone to have, they have the crazy. Of course its a lot easier when you are removed from the situation.
 
2012-05-13 09:11:27 PM

PonceAlyosha: ecor1: If you hit him hard enough his jaw requires wiring shut and he can only eat liquid food for a few months, he might learn something.

Nah. People like that never learn. In his mind he was totally in the right and his roomie just like, ATTACKED him out of nowhere. Like Znuh said, leaving is the only option. If they were capable of learning they would have already.

I seem to attract these type of people. I am getting better at spotting them though.

Are you sure it's not you then? My greatest fear whenever I read this sort of thing is that I am one of those people.


Yeah, they feed on that uncertainty and they are very good at convincing you that it is just you.

Their brains rewrite history pretty much instantly, or within minutes, days, or weeks.

It's been postulated that perhaps the reason they can't learn from experience so well --- by remembering events in a relationship and changing so they get better outcomes --- is that they don't know what "truth" is. It's so irrelevant to them in the first place that it never even occurs to them to remember it--they just tell events or remember them the way it's convenient for them to have things have been.

Sometimes they clearly know they're lying. Sometimes they appear genuinely puzzled and genuinely to believe their own bullshiat---and again, the clinical hypothesis is just that the mere concept of truth is so alien and irrelevant that it doesn't stick.

They genuinely don't "get" why Jane's "truth" is preferable to George's "truth" except as a matter of what's more useful, convenient, or who you like better.

Truth and reality are what you can get away with, or whoever has the best PR department. Except they're not actually being cynical when they say it. They are and they aren't---underneath the pose of worldly cynicism is the batfark insanity that really believes that shiat.

Which is why businessmen live in their own little worlds of "truth is what I say it is" where they all agree on "truth" until an earthquake brings down a bunch of buildings that the "truth" said were engineered and constructed to a certain standard--that weren't. And thousands of people die. And then a failure analysis finds a sacrificial goat to throw under the bus so that the gods of "truth" can keep replacing plain old reality.

Happens in the military. Happens just about everywhere there are large human organizations. Unfortunately, large percentages of alphas are closeted sociopaths. So if you find any organization that runs and functions and out-competes others like it, chances are one or a cabal of these bastiges is running it. Because a certain subset of them are pretty good at it.

They're easily bored, they get intrinsic rewards from power games and competing and winning, and they get limited rewards from having personal lives, and then only specific kinds of personal lives that are easily focused into power games, competing, and winning.

We have them in society because we need them. They're useful. They're also hazardous and should generally either be avoided or handled with care.

Avoided is usually best.
 
2012-05-13 09:16:12 PM
For every one of them that's really useful, there are several that are just plain toxic. Unfortunately, the toxic ones get pretty good at getting away with it. The rotten, mean kids who got away with it as kids grew up to be rotten, mean adults who get away with it as adults. There were exceptions, I'm sure. I mean for the most part. Wasn't it obvious they were going to?
 
2012-05-13 09:35:44 PM

Julie Cochrane: For every one of them that's really useful, there are several that are just plain toxic. Unfortunately, the toxic ones get pretty good at getting away with it. The rotten, mean kids who got away with it as kids grew up to be rotten, mean adults who get away with it as adults. There were exceptions, I'm sure. I mean for the most part. Wasn't it obvious they were going to?


Because of evolution and an instinct for survival, yes, selfish people survive and even thrive in a world of rational and fair, and live to procreate.

I mean, ducks for christ sake. They base their survival on rape(well some ducks). Humans are just a shade "worse"(if you really believe in ultimate morals, I don't), because they tend to kill each other a lot more than ducks and rape isn't really successful because we will terminate the offspring.

On morals and ethics. There is a rational reason to regulate society, to ensure the best chances for survival for everyone, because you never know when you'll be the victim to the outlier, or the minority that gets outvoted. (which, in a society tainted by the moral and ethical believers, is a constant danger, supposed morals and ethics are the very cause of all strife... except freak accidental tragedy, hey, crap happens)
No philosophy or religion needed to justify, just intelligence.
 
2012-05-14 04:11:32 PM
The Hostile

Telltale signs: High, sometimes explosive, reactivity. Frequently disagreeable. Cynical. Mistrustful. Does not like to be wrong.

Where you'll find them: Corner offices. The Internet, often under the cloak of anonymity.

Call in the wild: "I am going to come and burn the f**king house down."


WITH THE LEMONS!!
 
2012-05-14 08:10:01 PM

omeganuepsilon: Julie Cochrane: For every one of them that's really useful, there are several that are just plain toxic. Unfortunately, the toxic ones get pretty good at getting away with it. The rotten, mean kids who got away with it as kids grew up to be rotten, mean adults who get away with it as adults. There were exceptions, I'm sure. I mean for the most part. Wasn't it obvious they were going to?

Because of evolution and an instinct for survival, yes, selfish people survive and even thrive in a world of rational and fair, and live to procreate.

I mean, ducks for christ sake. They base their survival on rape(well some ducks). Humans are just a shade "worse"(if you really believe in ultimate morals, I don't), because they tend to kill each other a lot more than ducks and rape isn't really successful because we will terminate the offspring.

On morals and ethics. There is a rational reason to regulate society, to ensure the best chances for survival for everyone, because you never know when you'll be the victim to the outlier, or the minority that gets outvoted. (which, in a society tainted by the moral and ethical believers, is a constant danger, supposed morals and ethics are the very cause of all strife... except freak accidental tragedy, hey, crap happens)
No philosophy or religion needed to justify, just intelligence.


Wow. You've got a problem there:

"You never know when you'll be the victim to the outlier, or the minority that gets outvoted."

"Tainted by the moral and ethical believers."

See, you act like these "moral and ethical believers" are random, irrational, and unknowable. Like it's a constant, terrifying hazard what they may decide to make against the rules, or punish because they decide it's wrong. Or reward, because they decide it was right.

And it may well be---to you.

Most of the rest of us are pretty clear on what the overwhelming majority of our fellows are going to feel is right and wrong. It's not a mystery. We may or may not disagree with them about some of it. We may or may disagree with them about whether we want some of it legislated or not.

We may sometimes have serious disputes in a democratic society with a religious bunch that wants to legislate bits of their morality, and run a tug of war back and forth with them over bits of it.

But mostly morals and ethics don't cause the rest of us strife, if we're smart enough to do the right thing. Missed opportunities can be a real biatch, but sometimes that's the price you pay for being able to look at yourself in the mirror in the mornings.
 
2012-05-14 09:30:45 PM

Julie Cochrane: Like it's a constant, terrifying hazard what they may decide to make against the rules, or punish because they decide it's wrong. Or reward, because they decide it was right.

And it may well be---to you.


North Caronlina haters would all like a word.

Julie Cochrane: But mostly morals and ethics don't cause the rest of us strife


So, as long as it doesn't affect you, it's all good?

It very well could be you tomorrow.

It affected me with smoking, bans and special taxes. So I laugh when it's the gays now. I feel sympathy, but it's funny because I know some of them voted to limit me.

Legislation or not, doesn't really matter. Here's a thread in which there are examples of where legislation is bypassed:
Not the topic itself, the backstory revealed within the thread.
When it was blessed, there was a prayer issued, which contained(and I paraphrase)"Follow God, or get incarcerated or "removed"."
Atheists kicked off the school board.
Atheists arrested SWAT style for "fraud" (signed paperwork with "esq" attached to name.
/all the same town
//Link to forum with details(kind of spread about)

Now, you may pretend that I'm imagining persecution there, but it is intellectually dishonest to not see it.

Julie Cochrane: See, you act like these "moral and ethical believers" are random, irrational, and unknowable.


Not random, they have an agenda.
Irrational? Certainly
Unknowable? No, but it's not noticed by everyone.

I call morals and ethics into question, because of the rout people come to establish them. They are not established by any higher power, they're popular vote. Sex with young boys was once accepted, slavery, oppression of females, some of these in varying forms are still tolerated today in some places.

There is no such thing as an ultimate moral. There are reasons for them to come about without philosophy and without religion. Reasons for a law, that have no pressing interest in sexuality or another's religion or philosophy.
We want to survive, we form packs. Those that don't, are the outliers.
We establish an agreement to not kill others, except to protect yourself or others from being killed.(the threat can be outliers or other packs)
No murder, an obvious one, right? Direct result of murder, is death Everyone wants an environment like that. No violence, because that's high risk to anyone involved on either side.
No robbery, because ultimately it will lead to further violence, whether or not violence is illegal, it ultimately leads to death.

A typical sequence of logic in where "do unto others" is justified. I never said that religion didn't contribute some good things to society. As long as you don't get too crazy and take leaps, those are all laws that offer us all protection, are they not?

Now, you get the pack version of an outlier, a whole pack which rejects the others laws in part or in total.

No being gay? No drinking? No smoking? No being overweight? No eating red meat? Women must wear full robes? These are example desires of the moral and ethical believers.(Belief in a moral or ethic, because, well, they don't like it, the very definition of irrational)

These are irrational ideas to force upon others, to restrain personal choice.

Sure, no smoking or drinking in hospitals, courts, gov' buildings, schools, etc, that forces it upon others that have no choice but to be in that location. Beaches? Outdoors? Oh, there's a litter problem...Then enforce the existing litter laws. Oh they pollute the environment? What about your car exhaust? Your noxious cooking? etc. One industrial plant puts out plumes of pollution for visible for miles, you can't see very well in LA, compared to those, smokers do nothing to the environment(provided they don't litter)

But on to the point.

There are, in this world, groups that, if they had their way, would limit you in any number of ways that you view as ridiculous and unfair. Today, sure, they're a minority. What if their population grows? What's to stop them from trampling your way of life next year, or in the next decade?

Nothing. It doesn't stop it from happening today with or without legislation backing them. (examples above).
Racism, bigotry in general(Hello Westboro Baptists, New Black Panthers), Christians, Muslims, you name it, they've got an idea or two that are specific to their beliefs, and hell or high water they WILL see it enforced if they are able.

Julie Cochrane: But mostly morals and ethics don't cause the rest of us strife, if we're smart enough to do the right thing.


Be as smart as you want. I hear Jews were pretty smart, and blacks can be smart as well. Won't stop the majority from making your life a living hell, nor will it necessarily stop a sociopath who's chosen a different route to his survival by being a killer.

Julie Cochrane: Like it's a constant, terrifying hazard


Just because you're blind to it doesn't mean it's not happening to others this very minute, which it is.
 
2012-05-14 10:41:21 PM

omeganuepsilon: Julie Cochrane: Like it's a constant, terrifying hazard what they may decide to make against the rules, or punish because they decide it's wrong. Or reward, because they decide it was right.

And it may well be---to you.


North Caronlina haters would all like a word.


[sigh]

The devil's in the definitions.

By morals and ethics you can be talking about codes of ethics -- like the ethical codes that govern lawyers, breaches of which can get someone disbarred.

Or you can be talking about someone's religious beliefs like the Ten Commandments or the Wiccan Rede and Law, which are moral strictures and not legal ones.

Or you can be talking about someone's religious beliefs that they've put into legislative language and are trying to get passed as a bill, or have actually gotten onto the books as statute.

Or you can be talking about unwritten socio-cultural norms arising out of the interaction between the base culture and the empathy of individuals interacting with each other.

You and I appear to have been talking apples and oranges.
 
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