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(The Hollywood Reporter)   Joss Whedon's "Firefly" crew, flying high ten years later. (SPOILER ALERT: it's not coming back.)   (hollywoodreporter.com) divider line 151
    More: Cool, Joss Whedon, fireflies, Alan Tudyk, Morena Baccarin, Browncoat, Peter Dinklage, Adam Baldwin, Nathan Fillion  
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11710 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 11 May 2012 at 2:03 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-11 03:45:41 PM

Andrew Wiggin: DeWayne Mann: I like how everyone has completely forgotten about Ron Glass.

he'll always be detective harris to me.

/old


Ya, totally loved him in WKRP.
 
2012-05-11 03:49:56 PM

RandomAxe: ///Whedon has done great things since, but he seems to have peaked with Buffy before it got all emo-weepy


Eh? Even if you ignore how good Firefly, Dollhouse, Dr Horrible etc were, I'd argue that Angel Season 5 was as good as anything on Buffy, and that was certainly post emo-weepy.
 
2012-05-11 03:54:07 PM
I'd argue that Angel Season 5 was as good as anything on Buffy, and that was certainly post emo-weepy.

There was a lot of damned fine in later Angel, but I can't help but note how much of that was Ben Edlund-influenced.

Dr Horrible, in my opinion, is 90% awesome and 10% Please Don't Let Whedon Be Such A Whedon bullshiat. I like the commentary track better than the actual synchsound because of the level of remove. It's unfortunately so much easier to enjoy the show ironically.

I watched a few episodes of Dollhouse, and they were awful. People told me to keep watching, but I'd stopped trusting Whedon, and there's a lot on TV.
 
2012-05-11 03:59:59 PM

DeWayne Mann: Eh? Even if you ignore how good Firefly, Dollhouse, Dr Horrible etc were, I'd argue that Angel Season 5 was as good as anything on Buffy, and that was certainly post emo-weepy.


Good and Dollhouse should not be in the same sentence.

It might have had some good actors and good performances (Olivia Williams in particular), but the vast majority of it was terribly weighed down by Eliza Dushku's horrific 'acting'.
 
2012-05-11 04:01:59 PM

RandomAxe: Ben Edlund-influenced


Like Firefly...

And that's why I watch Supernatural now.
 
2012-05-11 04:02:04 PM

RandomAxe: I'd argue that Angel Season 5 was as good as anything on Buffy, and that was certainly post emo-weepy.

There was a lot of damned fine in later Angel, but I can't help but note how much of that was Ben Edlund-influenced.


Eh, that's somewhat fair. And following along that line, Firefly was a lot of Tim Minear (who I actually think I like better than Whedon).

But that sorta ignores that 1. Whedon picked those guys and 2. There were a lot of people not named Whedon working on Buffy too.

RandomAxe: I watched a few episodes of Dollhouse, and they were awful. People told me to keep watching, but I'd stopped trusting Whedon, and there's a lot on TV.


It's by no means perfect, but, Dollhouse, in my opinion, is the best Science Fiction on Television in the last decade or so. I don't mean Sci-Fi with robots & lasers & spaceships. I mean SF: Take something vaguely scientific, and explore how it would affect the human race.

Do yourself a favor and track down the episode Epitaph One. If it doesn't hold your interest, fine with me. You gave it a fair shot in my book. But I think it's worth checking out.
 
2012-05-11 04:04:13 PM

Seth'n'Spectrum: Good and Dollhouse should not be in the same sentence.

It might have had some good actors and good performances (Olivia Williams in particular), but the vast majority of it was terribly weighed down by Eliza Dushku's horrific 'acting'.


Like I just said, Dollhouse is probably the best Science Fiction on TV in the last decade. That's gotta mean it was at least somewhat good, right?
 
2012-05-11 04:06:58 PM

Andrew Wiggin: i have never seen a show as stupid as firefly. even all the actresses in it are farking ugly.


Get over it. It's not coming back. You won.
 
2012-05-11 04:07:25 PM

Bag of Hammers: Fish in a Barrel: jakomo002: Arkanaut: Alan Tudyk should be getting more work.

I saw this awesomely funny movie where he was one of the stars.

"Tucker and Dale vs Evil"

Hilarious slasher-flick send-up, where he plays a hillbilly.

Gold.

It was easily one of the funniest movies I've seen in years.

]

Too bad they give away the whole farking movie in the trailer.

Seriously, if you've seen the trailer, you've seen every joke in the movie.


Luckily I never saw the trailer. Netflix recommended the movie for me and I was apprehensive but it was really, really funny.
 
2012-05-11 04:09:29 PM

ha-ha-guy: I agree. The universe he built still has potential. He actually did a fairly good job of wrapping up the crew with Serenity. Between Season 1 and the movie he pretty much handled the Reavers and the River Tam arcs nicely. About the only two open things are what exactly Book was before become a Shepard (and I think I have a pretty good idea what he was) and if Mal and the hooker ever settle down together. I'd argue any further movies or the like about the crew of Firefly would feel lackluster or just plain be bad if they did something like "Oh hey Serenity wasn't canon, Book and the pilot are alive again!".


Mr Wheadon did a comic on Shepard's back-story. Search for:
Serenity_Volume_Three_-_The_Shepherd_s_Tale_(2010)_(Minutemen-DTs).cb z
 
2012-05-11 04:12:31 PM
I'm pretty much over the show - no desire to see it come back.

With AD coming back next year there's only one show I'd like to see return...


i1127.photobucket.com
 
2012-05-11 04:12:43 PM

DeWayne Mann: I'd argue that Angel Season 5 was as good as anything on Buffy, and that was certainly post emo-weepy.


If only I hadn't had to suffer through almost 3 seasons of crap to get there.

*Ahem*


Top stuff:

Buffy Season 3
Angel Season 5
Buffy Season 2

Decent stuff:

Buffy Season 5
Angel Season 4
Angel Season 3

Meh:

Buffy season 1
Buffy Season 7

Crap:

Buffy seasons 4 and 6
Angel season 2

MY GOD I PAID FOR THIS?!:

Angel season 1.
 
2012-05-11 04:12:50 PM

Snowflake Tubbybottom: Andrew Wiggin: DeWayne Mann: I like how everyone has completely forgotten about Ron Glass.

he'll always be detective harris to me.

/old

Ya, totally loved him in WKRP.


Not to mention Frank's Place. I think he totally presaged the Shepherd in that.
 
2012-05-11 04:13:11 PM
I loved seasons 1-4 of Buffy (5 was horrible and I stopped watching part way through season 6).
Angel seasons 1-3 and 5 were good (I did not like season 4).
Loved Firefly (Serenity was decent).
Watched 4 episodes of Dollhouse, never went back.
Loved Dr. Horrible.
Going to see Avengers tonight.
 
2012-05-11 04:13:52 PM
Whedon's said more than once that he likes to make bad things happen to his characters because it makes the story more 'serious' and because it pisses off the fans, which proves that he's created characters they really care about.

This is childish bullshiat. They used to call it 'character abuse', and it was considered a weak trick even for writers like V. C. Andrews. So when there's weepy emo ironic plot tragedy in a Whedon confection, I blame him. If he hired someone else who came up with it, it's his leadership.

Dushku is not the strongest actor he ever placed, but you may remember Buffy whining about how Life Is So Hard -- and then Faith says "Yeah. Good thing we're hot chicks with superpowers."

Right. On with the snark. If I wanted heroes who biatch and moan and suffer random tragedies because plotting is hard, I'd read Chris Claremont and watch daytime soaps.

Whedon does a lot of things brilliantly. I don't mind saying so. But abusing characters to prove you can is pathetic and annoying. And eventually just boring and predictable.

/still optimistic about Avengers, but not rushing out to see it
 
2012-05-11 04:18:19 PM

BarleyGnome: Yum.

[lh3.googleusercontent.com image 300x396]


Great, now I'm hungry.
 
2012-05-11 04:20:10 PM
At this point Joss Whedon can call producers and pitch an epic sci-fi musical centered on the character of Numfar starring Felicia Day and they'll throw money at him.
 
2012-05-11 04:24:28 PM

Jim from Saint Paul: DeWayne Mann: I'd argue that Angel Season 5 was as good as anything on Buffy, and that was certainly post emo-weepy.

If only I hadn't had to suffer through almost 3 seasons of crap to get there.

*Ahem*

Top stuff:

Buffy Season 3
Angel Season 5
Buffy Season 2

Decent stuff:

Buffy Season 5
Angel Season 4
Angel Season 3

Meh:

Buffy season 1
Buffy Season 7

Crap:

Buffy seasons 4 and 6
Angel season 2

MY GOD I PAID FOR THIS?!:

Angel season 1.


Weird. We perfectly agree on Buffy, but not at all on Angel...except for season 5.

My personal ranking is something like this, from best to worst:

A5
B3
B2
A2
B5
A3
A1
B1
B7
B4
A4
B6

The bottom half could probably be moved around, though.

Pants_Optional: I loved seasons 1-4 of Buffy (5 was horrible and I stopped watching part way through season 6).


The idea of season 7 was to go back to the beginning, except with Dawn being the high schooler. It wasn't perfect, but I enjoyed it about as much as I did Season 1.

6 was REALLY bad, though.

Pants_Optional: Watched 4 episodes of Dollhouse, never went back.


Again, check out Epitaph One. It spoils a couple of season 1 plot points, but it's probably worth it.

RandomAxe: This is childish bullshiat.


As opposed to most TV shows, where nothing bad ever happens? Or when it does, it's always in a Season Finale where you know it's coming?
 
2012-05-11 04:26:00 PM

DeWayne Mann: I like how everyone has completely forgotten about Ron Glass.


You're thinking of George Glass, Ron Glass was Jan Brady's imaginary boyfriend.
 
2012-05-11 04:27:39 PM

Bag of Hammers: Andrew Wiggin: i have never seen a show as stupid as firefly. even all the actresses in it are farking ugly.
0/0
[www.odditycentral.com image 425x283]


What is that picture? I probably don't want to know (dolphin version of seal clubbing)?
 
2012-05-11 04:28:45 PM

Snapper Carr: With AD coming back next year there's only one show I'd like to see return...

[i1127.photobucket.com image 223x298]


That plan is pure elegance in its simplicity.
 
2012-05-11 04:29:02 PM

DeWayne Mann: 6 was REALLY bad, though.


The last few episodes (and Alyson Hannigan) went a long way towards redeeming season 6.

/Joss should have ended the show with The Gift but I can't really blame him. I don't think I'd be able to turn down the truckful of money that UPN paid him to keep writing.
 
2012-05-11 04:29:16 PM

Angry Buddha: DeWayne Mann: I like how everyone has completely forgotten about Ron Glass.

You're thinking of George Glass, Ron Glass was Jan Brady's imaginary boyfriend.


You're telling me this is fake?

www.nndb.com

I'm sad now.
 
2012-05-11 04:30:30 PM

TappingTheVein: At this point Joss Whedon can call producers and pitch an epic sci-fi musical centered on the character of Numfar starring Felicia Day and they'll throw money at him.


Do the dance of wasted investment capital!
 
2012-05-11 04:31:17 PM

TappingTheVein: At this point Joss Whedon can call producers and pitch an epic sci-fi musical centered on the character of Numfar starring Felicia Day and they'll throw money at him.


And I'd watch it.
 
2012-05-11 04:33:25 PM

Snapper Carr: DeWayne Mann: 6 was REALLY bad, though.

The last few episodes (and Alyson Hannigan) went a long way towards redeeming season 6.


Ugh, no. The worst part of 6 were the mixed metaphors involving magic, and they came to a head at the end.

There are a few awesome moments in 6. Off the top of my head, 4 of my personal top 20 episodes were in that season (OMWF, Tabula Rasa, Normal Again, Seeing Red), but everything else was just...guh.

4 is a similar beast, btw. A few awesome episodes, but the rest is just garbled craziness with no real direction.
 
2012-05-11 04:34:55 PM

Snapper Carr: DeWayne Mann: 6 was REALLY bad, though.

The last few episodes (and Alyson Hannigan) went a long way towards redeeming season 6.

/Joss should have ended the show with The Gift but I can't really blame him. I don't think I'd be able to turn down the truckful of money that UPN paid him to keep writing.


I wanted dead Willow, not crayon Willow.

Also when Giles comes back all of a sudden you are like "OH YEAH! IT'S ON NOW!!!!"... till 2 minutes into the next episode where she brushes him aside.

Lame.
 
2012-05-11 04:36:07 PM
I didn't watch Firefly until a year or so ago and absolutely loved it. Wife isn't a sci fi fan and she loved it too (Although I suspect her love of Firefly is connected to her love of Castle). Just an awesome show.
 
2012-05-11 04:39:49 PM
That Homeland gave Morena Baccarin plenty of boobie-showing time made it the greatest TV show ever.
 
2012-05-11 04:49:29 PM
DeWayne Mann: As opposed to most TV shows, where nothing bad ever happens?

Most TV shows are bad, with almost no hope of being good. So I don't care if they do stupid, childish things.

Whedon shows have every chance of being good, which is why it matters when he craps on them. Which, to some extent, is his point for doing so, but it's not a point worth making. He's the artistic equivalent of a cocktease.
 
2012-05-11 04:57:10 PM

RandomAxe: DeWayne Mann: As opposed to most TV shows, where nothing bad ever happens?

Most TV shows are bad, with almost no hope of being good. So I don't care if they do stupid, childish things.

Whedon shows have every chance of being good, which is why it matters when he craps on them. Which, to some extent, is his point for doing so, but it's not a point worth making. He's the artistic equivalent of a cocktease.


What are some of examples of shows that get it right to you?
 
2012-05-11 04:58:34 PM

RandomAxe: DeWayne Mann: As opposed to most TV shows, where nothing bad ever happens?

Most TV shows are bad, with almost no hope of being good. So I don't care if they do stupid, childish things.

Whedon shows have every chance of being good, which is why it matters when he craps on them. Which, to some extent, is his point for doing so, but it's not a point worth making. He's the artistic equivalent of a cocktease.


I just don't see it that way. Bad stuff happens IRL, and we don't have to deal with demons/brainwiped assassins/vast interplanetary government conspiracies/etc. It makes every bit of sense that worse things should happen to his characters.

Compare it to say, Chuck or Fringe. I love both of those shows, but between the two, we've had, what, 3 protagonists die? Does that really make sense for what those characters do every day?

To look at it a completely different way, The Wire. Is there a single character in that show that had anything go well for them? Tommy Carcetti is the only one I can think of, and even that's a little arguable.

Life sucks. Overall, I think I'd rather have a show that's ok with saying so, then one that completely ignores that fact.
 
2012-05-11 05:08:02 PM
Alan Tudyk was the only bright spot in Transformers 3. Everything else, even the big robot battle at the end was thoroughly meh.
 
2012-05-11 05:08:45 PM

DeWayne Mann: The Wire. Is there a single character in that show that had anything go well for them?


Dukie wanted to work as an arabber -- and now he is!
 
2012-05-11 05:10:21 PM

BarleyGnome: Yum.

[lh3.googleusercontent.com image 300x396]


What you did... before... up there...

Thank you.
 
2012-05-11 05:11:03 PM

DeWayne Mann: Angry Buddha: DeWayne Mann: I like how everyone has completely forgotten about Ron Glass.

You're thinking of George Glass, Ron Glass was Jan Brady's imaginary boyfriend.

You're telling me this is fake?

[www.nndb.com image 240x312]

I'm sad now.


No, that's Venus Flytrap from WKRP.
 
2012-05-11 05:13:39 PM

Tax Boy: DeWayne Mann: The Wire. Is there a single character in that show that had anything go well for them?

Dukie wanted to work as an arabber -- and now he is!


I don't know if WANT is the right word here. But, sadly, you're right: in some ways, he's one of the better ones. If he's lucky, a few years from now, he'll get a job where he puts hats on people and lets the cops take pictures.

Which reminds me: Bubbles got to go upstairs once! Good for him.
 
2012-05-11 05:14:10 PM

RandomAxe: Whedon's said more than once that he likes to make bad things happen to his characters because it makes the story more 'serious' and because it pisses off the fans, which proves that he's created characters they really care about.

This is childish bullshiat. They used to call it 'character abuse', and it was considered a weak trick even for writers like V. C. Andrews. So when there's weepy emo ironic plot tragedy in a Whedon confection, I blame him. If he hired someone else who came up with it, it's his leadership.


Uh, it's probably one of the most common device used by writers.

Your characters have to SUFFER for people to actually give two shiats about them. I mean, look at anything.

Battlestar Galactica -- great show, everyone suffered constantly, the best characters were the ones with the most turmoil ( oh hi Tigh)

I was going to come up with some more, but just think about every good story or good movie you've ever seen. Pick an old one, like, say. HAMLET.

Or Die Hard. Mad Max. Inception. Avatar. Great Expectations. Superman. I mean jeez man.
 
2012-05-11 05:14:59 PM

IlGreven: DeWayne Mann: Angry Buddha: DeWayne Mann: I like how everyone has completely forgotten about Ron Glass.

You're thinking of George Glass, Ron Glass was Jan Brady's imaginary boyfriend.

You're telling me this is fake?

[www.nndb.com image 240x312]

I'm sad now.

No, that's Venus Flytrap from WKRP.


That's just crazy. Venus Flytrap had a beard. Don't you know anything about awesome facial hair?
 
2012-05-11 05:16:12 PM
Come to think of it, another great show, Breaking Bad is ALL about the suffering of the main characters. All of 'em. Constantly.
 
2012-05-11 05:17:47 PM

jakomo002: the best characters were the ones with the most turmoil ( oh hi Tigh)


Screw that, my favorite is Romo Lampkin and nothing bad ever happened to him. He was president!

...what do you mean his cat got killed and also the rest of his family?
 
2012-05-11 05:20:13 PM

DeWayne Mann: Compare it to say, Chuck or Fringe. I love both of those shows, but between the two, we've had, what, 3 protagonists die? Does that really make sense for what those characters do every day?


That depends on how you define "protagonist".

/But yeah, it's pretty low.
 
2012-05-11 05:21:11 PM

Jim from Saint Paul: Crap: Buffy Season 4


Season 4 holds up really well on repeated viewing. It was just several jolts to the familiar at once: College, Anya as a permanent character, gay Willow, and the biggest shock of all Riley in Angel's usual place. The finale also helped make it feel like a real let-down of a season.

Clearly, no follow-up was going to match Angel for intensity or drama. Any romance after Angel was going to be a crash landing in reality (of a sort). In fact, the idea of a quasi-normal relationship was actually one of the best parts of the drama.

But if you take this season on its own it's actually one of my top two (behind season 5). And it has one of my all time fav non-finale episode: The Thanksgiving Ep.

/you really do have to skip the 'big showdown' ep, though
//what a pile of steaming, fetid refuse that was
 
2012-05-11 05:22:50 PM

DeWayne Mann: Screw that, my favorite is Romo Lampkin and nothing bad ever happened to him. He was president!


Actually, that might be the only guy who actually gets away scott-free in that whole series :) Must have had it written into his contract, sneaky badger.

The biggest sufferer on the whole show, in my opinion, was Baltar, since he was in constant fear of being exposed as, you know, the Destroyer of Worlds. And yet he gets to bang pretty much every sexy chick on the show.
 
2012-05-11 05:27:48 PM

Neeek: That depends on how you define "protagonist".

/But yeah, it's pretty low.


Yeah, I know, I struggled on word choice. But here's who I came up with:

Chuck:
Stephen Bartowski
Bryce Larkin

Fringe:
Charlie (half a point)
Lincoln (half a point)
Bell...except he's alive again.

So 3 or 4 or 5 or I dunno.

K.B.O. Winston: The finale also helped make it feel like a real let-down of a season.


Man, the finale is the best part of 4.

The thing about Buffy is, rightly or wrongly, when you talk about seasons, you're talking about the storyline involving the big bad. And both 4 and 6 have TERRIBLE big bad plots.

It's one reason why I love that Angel went away from Big Bads...and the one season that had one was (IMO) the worst.
 
2012-05-11 05:31:13 PM

Pants_Optional: Angel seasons 1-3 and 5 were good (I did not like season 4).


Season 4 was the Jasmine stuff, right? I think I'm in the minority in liking that one. And that season begins Wesley's slide into badassery, iirc.

"I'll take away your bucket."
 
2012-05-11 05:33:25 PM

K.B.O. Winston: Jim from Saint Paul: Crap: Buffy Season 4

Season 4 holds up really well on repeated viewing. It was just several jolts to the familiar at once: College, Anya as a permanent character, gay Willow, and the biggest shock of all Riley in Angel's usual place. The finale also helped make it feel like a real let-down of a season.

Clearly, no follow-up was going to match Angel for intensity or drama. Any romance after Angel was going to be a crash landing in reality (of a sort). In fact, the idea of a quasi-normal relationship was actually one of the best parts of the drama.

But if you take this season on its own it's actually one of my top two (behind season 5). And it has one of my all time fav non-finale episode: The Thanksgiving Ep.

/you really do have to skip the 'big showdown' ep, though
//what a pile of steaming, fetid refuse that was


Beer. Bad.
 
2012-05-11 05:36:04 PM

jakomo002: Actually, that might be the only guy who actually gets away scott-free in that whole series :) Must have had it written into his contract, sneaky badger.


Wait, serious question, has anything bad every happened to Mark Sheppard in any show ever? The WORST I can come up with is the X-Files, where he had 6th degree burns...yet was healing at a rapid pace and was able to ask for a cigarette just a few days later.

I haven't seen everything he's done, of course, so maybe someone else can come up with something. But let's see:

Chuck - Wasn't in the room when it got blown up, disappears afterwords.

Firefly - Sad little king of a sad little hill

Dollhouse - Big time FBI guy who was secretly Japanese

etc, etc

jakomo002: The biggest sufferer on the whole show, in my opinion, was Baltar, since he was in constant fear of being exposed as, you know, the Destroyer of Worlds. And yet he gets to bang pretty much every sexy chick on the show.


Baltar is such a weird character. Not only was he one of the causes of the 12 colonies getting destroyed, but he was the cause of New Caprica getting destroyed TWO DIFFERENT WAYS (supplying the nuke that gave away the location, and then by being the BEST PRESIDENT/PIMP EVER). And yet no one ever seemed to hate him as much as they probably should...except for when they hated him way too much.
 
2012-05-11 05:39:39 PM

fusillade762: Season 4 was the Jasmine stuff, right? I think I'm in the minority in liking that one. And that season begins Wesley's slide into badassery, iirc.

"I'll take away your bucket."


Guh, Jasime. Yes.

But trying to define the beginning of Wesley's slide into badassery is rather difficult to do.

And again, I'm not saying that all of season 4 was bad. Spin the Bottle is an outstanding episode, and there were a few other really good ones. But the over arching plot...no.

(Also, like Buffy Season 4, Angel season 4's finale was all about setting up the rest of the show. Not a good sign for how well the preceding season went, right?)
 
2012-05-11 05:41:52 PM

Jim from Saint Paul: Beer. Bad.


Beer Bad gets marginally better if you assume it's a prequel for "That Vision Thing", the Angel episode that ALSO has Kal Penn.
 
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